There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts.Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not and you shouldn't have to figure it out [00:00:30] alone. Special thanks to our season two sponsors, Forwardly Relay and Client Hub. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at.
Questian Telka: Today's episode is called Imposter Interrupted.
Nancy McClelland: We're going to explore imposter syndrome. [00:01:00] What it really is. What it's not, and what it says about us. How we can push through it.
Questian Telka: So, Nancy, we love launching a story at the beginning of each episode. As many of our listeners already know, and you and I have a very recent one that involves both of us.
Nancy McClelland: Yes we do. Um, it was really a pretty significant moment. I've been studying imposter syndrome for a while, and I, um, have [00:01:30] spoken on it for insightful Accountant and, uh, with Adam Leon of the CFO project. And I recently did a talk, uh, for Theater of Public Speaking on it. And so I feel like I know a decent amount about imposter syndrome. Right.
Questian Telka: Well, and you've experienced it yourself, too?
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Questian Telka: You can't leave that out.
Nancy McClelland: I can't leave that out. You're correct. Which which actually goes to our point of this story, which is here we were a [00:02:00] couple of weeks ago at the Bridging the Gap Conference, which I'm sure regular listeners know is our very favorite conference. We talk about it all the time because it's it's such an incredible part of our lives. And I'm on the advisory board and, um, we both got to speak there this year. And after it was over, um, it was really wonderful because, um, Randy Crabtree, who runs the conference with his company trimeric and with and who.
Questian Telka: Has.
Nancy McClelland: Been.
Questian Telka: Podcast and who has been a huge advocate of ours. Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yes, [00:02:30] he absolutely has. Um, and and yes, as you were saying, he's he runs the unique CPA podcast and he actually launched, um, he announced the the launch of the She Counts podcast on the unique CPA podcast. He's he's really been an incredible person. So, um, he allowed us to actually finish off the conference. The last session of the conference was a live recording of She Counts Um with Q&A [00:03:00] from the audience and our amazing colleague Aaron Cohen of the Wave Conference, and she's a star founding member of ask a CPA. She moderated. It was an incredible experience.
Questian Telka: Yeah, she did an amazing job, an amazing job. I'm so grateful to have had her join us for that. I could not have thought of a better person, um, to to go through that. I agree with you.
Nancy McClelland: She was she was the perfect person for that. Um, [00:03:30] and yes, she did an incredible job, and I want to do it again. I want to record all of our episodes like that. It was so great.
Questian Telka: Me too, me too.
Nancy McClelland: So one of the questions that we received from the audience was about imposter syndrome. And I decided to do a little, a little poll of the room question, what happened?
Questian Telka: Yeah, we asked the room, and I did this at Scaling new Heights as well, because I did a session on imposter syndrome for women at Scaling New Heights, [00:04:00] and we asked everybody to raise their hand if they had imposter syndrome. And I think I expected, you know, maybe part of the room would raise their hands. But I think what we saw was that everyone, apart from maybe 1 or 2 people in that room, raised their hand to say that they experience imposter syndrome.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely, absolutely. So, um, that cinched for [00:04:30] me. What is a theory that I've had for quite some time, which is it ain't a syndrome if everybody experiences it, how is it a syndrome? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If 99% of the room is raising their hands, then why are we calling it a syndrome as if it were a medical diagnosis. It's it's not. There's nothing wrong with us. It is a common experience. It is not only a common [00:05:00] experience, it is in in my opinion, it is part of what it means to be human. In the same way that we will all at some point struggle with being depressed. We will all at some point struggle with loss, and we will all at some point be able to embrace joy. Um, these are just parts of the human condition, right?
Questian Telka: That's right. And I would actually argue that it's even more common and [00:05:30] pervasive in high achieving women because we are so motivated and, you know, suffer for from some perfectionism. So I tend to think that in, in contrast to it being because we're feeling like we're an imposter. But in contrast, we're really not. We're really high achieving. We're really working hard. We're just holding ourselves to these exceptionally high [00:06:00] standards.
Nancy McClelland: Right? Whether we're holding ourselves to them or we feel like society is or we're maybe occasionally people actually are, um, if especially if we've been condescended to our entire lives, um, or have felt like we have to work twice as hard in order to be taken seriously for whatever reason, and there are a thousand of them. And this will not be the only episode that we record about imposter syndrome, because there are so many angles to it. It's incredibly, [00:06:30] deeply complex. But I am going to argue, at the very least, that syndrome is a really inappropriate term to use with it. And so I'm going to tell me other terms.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I was going to ask you, what would you call it? Because you've brought this up in our conversations and I know you've spoken about it a lot, and I have pretty much maintained it and just called it what the what's the what? We've culturally called it. But I agree with you that it's not the right [00:07:00] terminology for it. So share with everyone. What do you think we should call it instead?
Nancy McClelland: Okay, so jury's still out on this. And and I'm not the only one who gets to make these decisions. So this is stuff.
Questian Telka: I mean, I.
Nancy McClelland: Think.
Questian Telka: You should be. Why not? Somebody has to do it. You.
Nancy McClelland: Uh, I well, you know what I already am. I'm already lobbying to be the one person in the world that gets the red pen that corrects everybody's grammar. So I don't think I'm allowed to have that. And this at the same time. So [00:07:30] we're going to make this one a crowdsource. But I have some ideas.
Questian Telka: Comment on that.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, please.
Questian Telka: I just have to share on that. I don't know if I've mentioned this in the podcast before, but it's really funny. And I just have to tell our listeners and I don't find it offensive at all. I actually find it hysterical and I kind of enjoy it. But when Nancy and I are writing our episodes, will be on a shared Google doc, for example, and I'll be typing something in and she'll be following behind me with her little red pen, editing my grammar. Because I'll be [00:08:00] honest, you know, I'm a great accountant, not so good at grammar.
Nancy McClelland: Whereas I am a writer and a copy editor, and therefore I can't see those things and not follow along.
Questian Telka: In them.
Nancy McClelland: And fix them. It's just I.
Questian Telka: Find it endearing about you to be.
Nancy McClelland: I'm glad. I'm relieved. I'm relieved. Um, my my best friend bought me a t shirt that says I'm silently correcting your grammar. Yes. Um, that's a that was a good, good thing.
Questian Telka: You should get that on a coffee mug to a [00:08:30] t mug.
Nancy McClelland: Rather a tea mug. Thank you very much. I appreciate the acknowledgment that I'm a tea drinker. Um, so, uh, let's throw some ideas out there. And I would love for our listeners to help us decide this. Actually, I feel like we should change the question that we are going to ask.
Questian Telka: I think.
Nancy McClelland: So too. Yeah.
Questian Telka: What do we call it?
Nancy McClelland: Uh, what do we call it? Yeah. So here are some ideas. Imposter phenomenon is what I generally refer to it as when I'm speaking on the topic. [00:09:00] Um, just because people are waiting for you to say the word syndrome. And if you say the word phenomenon instead, they know what you're talking about. Um, but I've talked to a lot of people who are like, phenomenon. That's not really moving to me. So some other ideas are imposter feelings, because this is truly that's what it is. It's a feeling of being an imposter. It's not you actually being an imposter, right? Imposter sensation, imposter experience, imposter voice.
Questian Telka: And [00:09:30] syndromes typically are a set of symptoms that come with a clinical diagnosis, and there is nothing to clinically diagnose imposter syndrome syndrome. So we have to be very clear about that. This is not in, um. What's the what's the, uh, medical psychology?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Know what I'm talking about? Everybody knows what we're talking about. Dsm or something like that.
Nancy McClelland: Dsm. Thank you. Okay.
Questian Telka: Thank you. I got it.
Nancy McClelland: It's in the DSM. You got it. You totally do. Um, [00:10:00] yeah, as a matter of fact, um, one of the things that my therapist and I talk about a decent amount is when I'm getting wound up about something, imposter ism or otherwise, there's another one. We can call it imposter ism. I've heard people refer to it that way. Um, when I'm getting worked up about something, I. I say, at what point do I need to really take this seriously? Like, at what point do I need to, for example, be medicated or go to hypnosis or do the, you know, rapid eye movement therapy [00:10:30] or whatever? And she said, um, when something in your life becomes so serious that you can't live a normal life because of it. That's the point at which we start worrying about those things. And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, I don't feel like that's the case. And so I just keep moving on. And so it it kind of gives me to remember that syndrome means that something has to truly be interruptive in your life. It needs to be preventing you from accomplishing something that you [00:11:00] would otherwise accomplish. Um, or it needs to be getting in the way. Uh.
Questian Telka: And I think.
Nancy McClelland: Some serious way. Go ahead.
Questian Telka: It does probably get in the way for some people, but not to the same like medical diagnosis degree. Right. Because we have a piece of data that says from Psychology Today that 70% of adults may experience imposter ism at least once in their lifetime, which makes sense considering the number of people that raise their hand in both those sessions. When [00:11:30] we asked who feels like they have this phenomenon?
Nancy McClelland: Okay, wait, what is this phenomenon anyway? Can you define it, please? Because I feel like a lot of people have a lot of different definitions, And I love the one that you came up with.
Questian Telka: Yeah. I think the best way for me to describe it is that it's a persistent, self-limiting belief. So it's not a it's not a real belief. It's a self-limiting belief that I hold or that others have that you're not as competent [00:12:00] as others perceive you to be. And in my how that manifests for me is that someone will find me out like, oh, we hired her to do this thing, but she really she really isn't competent to do that, or she's gonna go on stage and she's gonna bomb. Even though we hired her to speak. And having that feeling myself. And it's interesting that in a lot of ways, people [00:12:30] will hire you. They hire you because they see the competence there, they recognize it, there's reasons behind it. And so they're they know that we're going to do a good job. They they've vetted us, right? So.
Nancy McClelland: Right. It's not it's not. It's your fear of what they will think of you, uh, or your fear. Fear that you are not up to the task. Not an actual expectation on their part that you will fail. Yes. [00:13:00] And that's what you mean by saying it's not real. That's right. Feeling is real. But it's it's internal. It's coming from inside.
Questian Telka: I think it's really, really important to make it clear that when we talk about imposter syndrome, because we got after one of the sessions, they got a piece of feedback from someone that felt like we didn't understand what imposter syndrome was. And so I want to make it very clear in this episode that, um, it does not mean being unskilled and [00:13:30] doing something. Anyway, that is not the definition of imposter syndrome. I mean, that is not we are not telling anybody, oh, you don't know what you're doing, so go and go and do it. And until.
Nancy McClelland: You confidence.
Questian Telka: Just have confidence. Fake it till you make it. No, we don't want to fake anything until we make it in accounting. Like we don't want to do that. We need to know what we're doing in order to.
Nancy McClelland: And I'm going to argue and this will come up a little more later. But I'm going to argue that the the more that we study [00:14:00] and the more that we arm ourselves with knowledge, the, uh, less imposter feelings, the fewer imposter feelings we're going to have. And when this becomes a serious problem, when imposter ism becomes a serious problem, is when you've got that education, you've got that experience, you've got that background, and you are still holding this self-limiting belief that somebody is going to find you out.
Questian Telka: And it's preventing you from doing something that you [00:14:30] aspire to be doing and quite honestly, that you are capable of doing.
Nancy McClelland: Or it's causing so much anxiety that you know you're doing it, but you're suffering from procrastination and you're suffering from, um, you know, she's they can't.
Questian Telka: Nobody can see us. But I'm pointing to myself.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. I have a really funny story for you, actually, that I was reading, um, in researching for this episode, um, Neil Gaiman, the author, was [00:15:00] at a big event at the white House with a bunch of other, um, amazing people who have accomplished incredible things in their lives. And he was, uh, back in the back because he was like, I don't deserve to be here. Look at how amazing all of these other people are. And I'm not now, I, I think by most measures, we would all consider him to be an extremely successful author. And yet here he was feeling like, okay, this I'm I'm back here, I don't deserve to be here. And somebody walked up [00:15:30] to him and they started chatting. And it turned out they had the same first name. And so they were talking about the fact that they had the same first name, and then they started talking about the fact that this other Neil was over there in the back, because he didn't feel like he belonged in this room of incredible people. Do you know who that was, Neil Armstrong.
Questian Telka: That's a great story. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So to illustrate, this really does happen to everyone.
Questian Telka: Everyone? Yeah. And men included, of course. And it manifests differently in women, which we're going to [00:16:00] talk about. But I was actually I mean, like, now that makes my story sound pretty like silly because Neil Armstrong. Right? But I came home from Bridging the gap and I moderated a panel that you were part of. You helped me prepare for, which was incredible. And I was part of a panel. Then we recorded the podcast and I came home after and was having and I think I texted you this and it was definitely having a moment where I was like, I don't deserve to be in [00:16:30] this space with these incredible people and speakers that we've been around. So it's I share that because.
Nancy McClelland: Do you know what that means question. You just said that that that sounds silly next to the Neil Armstrong comment, but I'm going to argue the opposite. I'm going to say, oh, look at you having something in common with Neil Armstrong.
Questian Telka: That's probably the only thing I have in common with Neil Armstrong.
Nancy McClelland: Don't talk yourself down. What I'm trying I mean, what the whole point that we're trying, the whole point that we're [00:17:00] trying to make here is that it is a natural human feeling. Neil Armstrong has it, you have it, and you're both in situations. Right? You having just come off of having successfully presented three times at bridging the gap and him having successfully, I don't know, we'll call him being Neil Armstrong. Right. Um, going to the moon. Right. Okay. So so you both already did the thing, you both already [00:17:30] did the thing. And so it goes exactly with the definition that you were giving, which is despite evidence to the contrary, despite the knowledge that you had the ability, you still are looking at yourself in that way. One of the things that I admitted in the live Q&A that we did this was deep.
Questian Telka: I know where you're going. Go ahead. No, no, you say it. You say it.
Nancy McClelland: All right. Well, I had to admit that one [00:18:00] of the things that not I had to admit, I chose to admit, I decided to be full on vulnerable and admit that one of the things that freaks me out constantly is that I am always convinced that people are going to think I'm a rookie at public speaking, which is completely ridiculous.
Questian Telka: It is public speaking. I'm sitting here shaking my head because you are in. You are an incredible speaker, very [00:18:30] compelling. And and you're still, you know, feeling the same way. And you and the same thing you told me after I. What did you tell me after I moderated that panel?
Nancy McClelland: Do you remember.
Questian Telka: I walked off afterwards and, you know, of course, you're my you're a mentor to me. So I look at you because I'm kind of like, how was I? Did I do a good job? And you said this. That was the best moderating.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I did.
Questian Telka: I.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, that was the best panel moderation [00:19:00] that I had seen in years.
Questian Telka: That's exactly what you said that is.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Questian Telka: I remember like, I can't tell you how much joy that I mean, I was like, walking on a cloud after.
Nancy McClelland: I was so proud. I was so proud. You know, we got we had this session together and and you asked a really insightful, intelligent questions. I took you through a bunch of slides and scripts of other panels that I had moderated, and you took all sorts of notes about what you wanted to do, and then you you implemented every single one of those things, and you brought your own voice to it. You helped the guests [00:19:30] give their best, right? You really. You just did such an amazing job. And then you come home from bridging the gap, and you think I don't deserve to be there. And so this is all to illustrate to our listeners that you are not alone. If you have these feelings of imposter ism, it is not just you. It is a normal part of being human. And we're going to talk next about how to identify it and what to do about it. So [00:20:00] question do you want to share some key characteristics about? I think this.
Questian Telka: Should also explain what it isn't. Right. So yes.
Nancy McClelland: That's true.
Questian Telka: I think it's important to share with everyone. Um, well, I guess we key characteristics first and then what? It's not. Right. That makes most sense. So I think it is attributing success to luck in many [00:20:30] ways, saying not recognizing accomplishments, not recognizing capabilities in yourself, thinking you just got lucky or it was somebody else that made like a presentation good or a project good. Um, downplaying your accomplishments, which is exactly what both of us are talking about doing right now. And then one that is affects me is I do both of these things, which is really kind of crazy. I overprepare and I procrastinate. [00:21:00]
Nancy McClelland: And.
Questian Telka: Do both of those things because I overprepare because I want it to be the best that it possibly can be. And I'm scared that I won't do a good job and that I'll be found out, or that somebody won't want to have me back, which is not necessarily imposter syndrome. But and then I procrastinate as well because I get I build up if it's something that's really big and really important to me? I [00:21:30] build up this thing in my mind and I have these self-limiting things. I'm telling myself that I can't do it or I'm not going to be able to accomplish it. And so one of the things that really works for me when I have that happen, and I think that's part of my ADHD as well, is I really have to break it down. I really have to break it down, and I have to. And you've reminded me to do this before as well, to say, okay, I can do I have to do this section of a project and then I can take a break, or I have to do it for this many minutes and I have [00:22:00] to not do anything else, and everything's on D and D. And so that's one thing that that really helps. But procrastinating and overpreparing and combination. And that's a weird combo too.
Nancy McClelland: No it's not a weird combo. I am exactly the same. I am I also overprepare and I also procrastinate. The procrastination comes from the anxiety that I will not live up to whatever standards other people have set for me, which is kind of interesting because it's really my own standards that I'm trying to live up to, but [00:22:30] I never want to disappoint anyone. And I'm convinced every single time that I will disappoint people every well, and to him.
Questian Telka: To hit on that, something we're planning to talk about later is there is also this feeling I think so many women have, and I think people of different ethnicities and different abilities also shares that because we're women, we have to do something twice as well or twice as hard in order to prove [00:23:00] ourselves, to get past beliefs that society or culture has for what we can and cannot do.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, yes. So that actually leads perfectly into a point that you and I both wanted to clarify here. This is not only a mindset issue, it is a mindset issue, but it is also a social and a systemic issue. This is not just oh, you need [00:23:30] to have more confidence. So let's talk. That actually leads us into what imposter syndrome is not.
Questian Telka: So as we already kind of mentioned, it's it's not a mental illness or a clinical diagnosis. Right. We know we mentioned it's not a a lack of competence. What else.
Nancy McClelland: Low self esteem. One of the things that you had mentioned is that and this was interesting when we were preparing for this, um, question had made this note that it's not low self-esteem. [00:24:00] And I said, I would love to know what you mean by that, because sometimes, like people who have low self-esteem actually suffer worse from imposter syndrome. And you made a really good point.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I did that. Um, you can have both. You know, you can have high self-esteem and still feel like an imposter in certain situations. And, you know, I would ask you to [00:24:30] elaborate on being afraid that people will think you're a rookie public speaker because you have said repeatedly in the podcast and to me that that confidence is not an issue. You have confidence in abundance, but you also have imposter syndrome.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, it's both at the same time. It's not either or. So, um, yes, I do generally have high self-esteem. I was very lucky in the way that I was raised. Um, my my parents [00:25:00] and are both highly accomplished people. My brother is a highly accomplished person, so am I. We all have high self-esteem and not my father, but my mother and my brother and I all also have imposter phenomenon. We have feelings of being an imposter. And, um, I think that that has a lot to do with and I'm guessing at these things. These are these are just some very personal observations on this. Um, but so I [00:25:30] have set my own standards very high. Right. And so I'm doing the overpreparing and the procrastination because I'm trying to measure up to those standards, but I'm imposing the concept of those standards on other people. I am taking my worst fears that I will disappoint someone or I will not live up to their standards. And I am projecting those worst fears on other people. Extroverts tend to do this, and everybody in my family is an extreme extrovert. And so we're [00:26:00] taking these these worst fears. We're projecting them on things that are not being said out loud because extroverts were just like talking all the time. We're saying all the things out loud. People who are quieter, we have to make up in our heads what they are thinking. And so.
Questian Telka: We know.
Nancy McClelland: And we project them. And I suspect that that's the root of where that comes from. I also think that there is an element of it. You [00:26:30] know how you were saying that as a woman, especially as a woman of color, society is ready to, uh, is ready to look at you and say you're not enough. And so you have to overperform in order to get your foot in the door. Well, I would say young people also, because I started serving on boards and doing public speaking when I was in my late 20s, and I remember getting a major board position when I was 27 years old, and I knew that [00:27:00] I had to work ten times more than anybody else to prove that I deserved to be asked to be on that board.
Questian Telka: To be taken seriously.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, but question. You already said earlier, I already got invited to be on the board, right? They knew that I was going to do a good job. I didn't need to over perform like that, but in my head I'm still that 27 year old I am. I'm still trying to prove myself in the way that that person was. [00:27:30] And I think that that is also a really common thing a lot of people never grow into, uh, mentally, you know, they never grow into the adult that they become. A lot of us are 27 inside, or.
Questian Telka: That's how I.
Nancy McClelland: Feel. 17 in my mind.
Questian Telka: I used to joke when I was, I'm 43 now, but when I was 42, I used to joke that I was my age in reverse, so it was really 24.
Nancy McClelland: Totally. That makes.
Questian Telka: Sense. I'm like, I don't feel like I'm 34, so that doesn't really work.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I'm I'm 53 now and I definitely don't [00:28:00] feel 35. I'm pretty sure I'm locked into 27.
Questian Telka: I'm like, that's where I want to be. I like that number two, there's some some other things that it is not is it's not a sign that you're not qualified. Right. And you have said, I'm.
Nancy McClelland: Going to argue. Yeah. This is the perfect sign that you are because you're concerned. Which shows that you care and you're ready to tackle the next learning curve. Um, it's this sudden explosion of awareness [00:28:30] that happens when, um. And this was Jodi Strong, who is, um, a member of ask a CPA. She said to me in a one on one once, and I loved this. She said, I thought that the world of how much there was to know about bookkeeping was this big, and she showed me a circle with her hands. And then she said, and I thought I knew this much. And she showed me a slightly smaller circle. And then I joined ask a CPA, and I started learning all of this additional stuff, and I realized that the world of what there [00:29:00] was to know about bookkeeping was actually this big. And she made a circle that was like as big as the entire screen.
Questian Telka: Infinite.
Nancy McClelland: What? She. Yes. And she said what she knows about it is far larger than now than the small circle that she initially showed, but in ratio to how much there is to learn that is much bigger. And so, um, in my opinion, the the you're not ready or you're [00:29:30] unqualified. That's not what that means. It means you just realized the world of what there is to know is much bigger, and you have farther to go. So you're ready now to tackle that next learning curve. It's when we don't realize how much more there is to learn that we get into trouble with not knowing enough.
Questian Telka: Yeah, that's I think that's probably why when you're a teenager, you think you know everything because you don't know all the things you don't know. Um, for sure. Um, so [00:30:00] I think we also want to talk about, like, where does this come from? Where where does this feeling of imposter syndrome, how does it get created and, and built up in us And there are some I think there's a number of places, but there's some structural and social roots. And, you know, I've heard some people say, oh, it comes from comparison or it comes from, again, low self-esteem or things like that. But I would say that that's not that's [00:30:30] not only true. So I think that there are a lot of expectations, gender expectations, for example, in the workplace, such as, um, you know, humility or um, things that can happen, like being treated condescendingly. And, um, I'm going to share.
Nancy McClelland: I think that's one of the reasons that I, I get very nervous getting into a room with, with attorneys, not because [00:31:00] they necessarily know so much more than I do. Normally, if I'm in a room with an attorney, it's because the client wants to make sure that I'm giving my $0.02 on the financial section of an operating agreement or a partnership agreement. Right. So to the point that you've made a couple of times here, like I've already been invited into that room. Right. Um, but I know that in general, attorneys are going to treat me like dirt. They're going to try to lift themselves up, especially male attorneys. Um, but it happens [00:31:30] with females sometimes as well. And I get extremely anxious going into that room because I'm waiting for that onslaught of, um, aggressive, aggressive condescension. Yeah. Is that a phrase? Aggressive condescension?
Questian Telka: I don't see why not.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. We're going to make it now. And and that that makes people really nervous going into a situation. I have high self-esteem. And so in my case, I'm in a situation where I have confidence going into that room that [00:32:00] I know what I'm talking about, but I do not have confidence that other people will treat me that way. And that leads to some of these feelings of worrying that I'm going to be exposed as a rookie.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I have a short a story to share as well. It's kind of a a vulnerable one. I was I shared it with you recently, but I was speaking to a colleague because I'm kind of, you know, I love what we're doing here. And I really feminism and empowering women has [00:32:30] been something that's been important to me in my entire life. And so I really want to continue to lean into what we're doing with she counts in other ways. I want to speak on it more. I want to just be putting it out there and growing the awareness. And I said to someone, I was sharing what my ideas were, and his response to me was, well, no one will really want to listen to you because you're not a leader. And yeah, [00:33:00] and, you know, and for a moment I thought, well, yeah, I'm not a C-suite individual. I'm not. You know, I have a firm. I run a firm. I'm leading my firm. Um, but there are so many other ways of leading. But I think the point that I was trying to make by sharing that story is that. My imposter syndrome. Right. So there's this idea, like, to be a leader and there's this, uh, obviously [00:33:30] he has a different definition of what a leader is than what I consider it to be. And so sometimes those situations and hearing things like that from other people feed into this, this feeling of, of imposter syndrome. And I took a step back and I thought, maybe this is correct. Maybe this really is something that I, I shouldn't be doing.
Nancy McClelland: I remember when you texted me about that and I was like, question, look at how much we've [00:34:00] already accomplished. Clearly you have something to say and people are listening. We're in the top 35% of newly released podcasts.
Questian Telka: Question top ten Accounting Podcast.
Nancy McClelland: And in the top ten of accounting podcasts. So, uh, I, I, I think that I'm going to come back to your definition that you have evidence to the contrary, and you still were [00:34:30] shaken by that kind of treatment. And this is where, um, you know, we talked earlier about how everybody this is something that almost everybody deals with men and women, but there are reasons that men tend to move through it more quickly than women. And there are reasons that it holds women back more than men. And it's this kind of comment. Do you think he would have said anything like that to a man?
Questian Telka: No, [00:35:00] I don't I mean, and it was, to be fair, it was a very like personal conversation. It wasn't in a professional capacity, but still. Oh, that makes it.
Nancy McClelland: So much better. Somebody who you're close to and who purports to care deeply about you said that to you, huh? Yeah, yeah. You're right. That makes it way better. Question. No, it's not okay. And this is a great example of how this is not just in the workplace. [00:35:30] This kind of thing is happening all over the place. And and part of that is lack of representation in leadership. Part of that is, is, um, this cultural norms? Yes, absolutely. Um, our, our concept in our industry in particular about, you know, who is qualified to lead and who isn't qualified to lead. So, um, I wouldn't I'm going to argue that, to be fair, I'm I'm not giving him a pass on this one.
Questian Telka: Yeah. We shouldn't. [00:36:00]
Nancy McClelland: So question in addition to all of these things, we've already talked about, whether they're accounting specific, gender specific norms, uh, leadership, lack of representation, condescension, all of that stuff contributes to how this is showing up in women's careers. And I know you've done a lot of a lot of soul searching and thinking and research on that.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I think it it shows up in a lot [00:36:30] of ways in women's careers and very, very vast ways. So we when we have self-limiting beliefs, we make self-limiting choices. For example, maybe not putting yourself forward for a promotion because women tend to when you're looking at a promotion or you're determining whether you're qualified for a job, a woman looks at a list and wants to make sure that she has every single thing on the list, right, and won't apply [00:37:00] unless she has every single thing on the list. So I think that's one big way that it shows up. We may do things like avoid speaking engagements or putting ourselves out there. I know for myself that that was something that was an issue for me for a very long time, and apologizing for having an opinion or just apologizing in general. Um, and drives me bonkers, makes you crazy. I comes up like, every time we see each other, right? [00:37:30]
Nancy McClelland: Yes. And you're getting so much better at it. I'm so proud of you.
Questian Telka: I am, I'm trying not to. And I do mean it when I apologize, but I do tend to. Yeah, I'm very I'm very conscientious and I care a lot about other people's feelings. And so if I feel like I've offended or hurt or upset someone, I tend to apologize too much. So I think that.
Nancy McClelland: Women, um, including including you question, are apologizing before. [00:38:00] For the person has had any opportunity to express displeasure. And most of the time it's it's not a thing. It's it's not a thing you don't even need to apologize for. You texted me last night and, um, and apologized for having asked to switch from using WhatsApp to to text. And I'm like, that is not the kind of thing I believe that you need to apologize for. My dear, I love you very much. I did apologize for [00:38:30] not warrant. Um, so yeah, the apologizing before stating your opinion is something that that, um, I think is extremely common, and it's one of one of the ways that it shows up here. And I want us to use our self-awareness to recognize when we're apologizing where it it didn't need a moment. And, um, you know, now that is not only imposter feelings, but that is one of the many scenarios where [00:39:00] you see this kind of thing.
Questian Telka: And I think one area we really need to talk about, which it does not get brought up very often, is how it interacts with how imposter syndrome interacts with race, different socioeconomic classes, neurodiversity, disabilities. When we fit in one of those labels that society has created for us, right, we tend to internalize the narrative [00:39:30] without even realizing that we're internalizing a narrative that society and our culture holds.
Nancy McClelland: So I find that so insightful. Yes. Taking that intersectional lens and recognizing what kind of personal consequences there are. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Absolutely. And knowing that these there are these societal views about women, for example, that [00:40:00] caused us that we we internalize and cause us to hold feelings and create imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon, feelings or scenarios. So an example I would use when we kind of hit on this earlier, but a woman of color and a majority white firm may internalize the pressure and feel like she needs to be twice as good to prove herself and to be seen as [00:40:30] confident. And so I think that that very much leads to feelings of imposter ism. And another way that it can come up as well is a sense of when you're thinking economically, um, and you're feeling like an outsider, it can magnify the sense of being an impostor. If you are of a different [00:41:00] socioeconomic class because you feel, you know, like you're trying to live up to this societal standard and you in that process, I mean, it's just very it can be just very difficult to see yourself for all of your capabilities when you are viewing yourself from this other lens. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Yes, definitely. I an example that I can think of, um, is [00:41:30] I remember, um, going out with a friend of mine to a nice restaurant, um, when we were in our 20s, and, um, she was only just now, like she had been raised very poor, and she was only just now at a point in her life where she was making a lot of money, and she felt like she didn't deserve to be in that restaurant. And I'm like, can you pay this bill then? Yes, you deserve to be here. But it wasn't like you were saying, you know, success felt very new [00:42:00] to her, and therefore it felt very fragile.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah. And and in terms of neurodiversity, I know for myself, um, I've spent a lot of time masking and trying to, like, hide or overcompensate for my ADHD traits, and it's exhausting and unsustainable. And when I look at myself and there is some comparison here, that's why I said it's not, you know, it's [00:42:30] not only that, but it's like when I look at myself and I compare myself to how a neurotypical person is, then it can also intensify my feelings of imposter syndrome. So you know this in this perfectionist or detail obsessed industries like what we're in. And I mean, to be fair, I am also a perfectionist. Um, Um, it can fuel a lot of self doubt because some of us suffer from functional, [00:43:00] you know, executive functional challenges such as time blindness and disorganization and those sorts of things. So I think it's really important to keep that in mind and take it into consideration and recognize it when you are having these feelings of imposter syndrome. And I think it's sometimes difficult for people to dig in and figure out and realize and recognize that that's where it's coming from as well.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. I'm so glad you went through those examples. Um, [00:43:30] and recognizing that, yes, imposter syndrome affects all of us, but it affects different segments of society differently. Um, and there are some things that will help, but there are also some things that do not help. Um, and especially like when we're looking at this from the perspective that I know you had mentioned to me when we were preparing that sometimes success can feel conditional, like if you if you mess up even a little bit, they'll assume you were never qualified [00:44:00] to begin with. You know, back to my nervousness with people thinking that I'm I'm a rookie. I'm definitely not a rookie. But I'm still worried that, like, if I don't overachieve on this next project, they're going to think I was all along. Like for the past 30 years, I wasn't allowed to be on that stage. Right. Um, so what? I know some things that don't help me. And there's one in particular that we talk about a lot. Yeah.
Questian Telka: I know what you're gonna [00:44:30] say.
Nancy McClelland: I'm gonna let you say it.
Questian Telka: The, uh, the, uh, toxic positivity and. Oh, you can do it. You got this. Uh, just be confident. Uh, you know, the positive affirmations without deeper, deeper meaning or deeper change. Just this, you know, rah rah kind of. It'll be fine. Everything's going to be fine. You got it is really not helpful [00:45:00] when I'm trying to eliminate these feelings.
Nancy McClelland: Just hearing you say that. And I know that you are a friend and you are on this. We're recording this together, and I'm bristling literally just just hearing that because it it is. So for me, I need to be validated.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: First. First we validate and then the positivity it needs to come, in my opinion, especially to address impostor [00:45:30] phenomenon. Um, it it needs to not just be performative.
Questian Telka: Performative has to be specific. Right? Very. Yes. Like, okay, you've got this because you spent three hours preparing. You have got this because you know, this. You've been. You know, you've been studying. S corpse and reasonable compensation for how many years you specialize in it. You've got this because you know reasons behind it rather [00:46:00] than just. Oh, you can do it. You're fine because you prepare. It's like, well, yeah, I mean.
Nancy McClelland: The that's one of the things that happens a lot to us is, is, um, when we're nervous about something, women, especially when we're nervous about something and people will say, oh, don't worry about it. You've you've always done it in the past. You'll do it again. And you're like, well, I've always done it in the past because I've, I've prepared for like weeks on end and I am so highly overprepared that I couldn't fail. But I [00:46:30] didn't get to do that this time. And that's why I'm nervous. For example, saying you've always done it in the past and therefore you'll you'll do it fine.
Questian Telka: Now you'll be fine. Yeah, you'll be fine.
Nancy McClelland: And my friend Jennifer Diamond, she said something in our theater of public speaking chat recently, she said. We don't need to fake anything to make anything. We already are something. And I love that so much because she is also the person who says to me, Nancy, [00:47:00] remember, your entire life has brought you to this moment. She's not just saying, you got this. She's saying you have studied this particular topic in depth for a decade. That is not the same as you got this, because you got this. You got this because you've studied it for ten years. And I think that we can really help each other when we cheer each other on. But we need to make sure that that cheering is coming from a, um, something [00:47:30] that's not just going to make you feel good, it's actually going to help the other person.
Questian Telka: Right? Right. And you have some you've talked on this quite a bit. So you have some methods for overcoming imposter syndrome. And I will call them Nancy's three R's. Can you tell us what you are? What those.
Nancy McClelland: Are? Oh.
Nancy McClelland: You're so funny.
Questian Telka: What?
Nancy McClelland: Those are. They are. Recognize, [00:48:00] reframe and relief. So recognizing is we have to name it out loud. Call it what it is. Recognize that these are feelings of imposter ism. Go. Meta. As my therapist would say. And, um, you know how you were saying earlier, it's not real. It feels real. The belief that somebody will think this about you is real, but they they won't. Actually, they're not actually thinking those things. [00:48:30] So talk to your peers, talk to your mentors, talk to your coaches and recognize that this these are imposter feelings. Secondly, reframe reframe the narrative from I'm a fraud. Too. I'm growing and learning. And you're. It's. It's that same. You're in that same space that Jodie Strong was talking about in terms of the small circle and the big circle, how much, you know, has grown. It's just that awareness [00:49:00] of how much more is out there. So that doesn't make you a fraud. That gives you an opportunity to go to the next level. And then the third R is relief when you recognize and you reframe, ideally that is going to take some pressure off of you needing to go learn all the things.
Questian Telka: And which is impossible.
Nancy McClelland: It's impossible, it's impossible. Um, when we were going through this, though, I was excited because you added another R to my R's.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Your [00:49:30] the last R.
Questian Telka: I think we're pirates today. R um, I think that that the next one that's important is to redefine competence. So we're not looking for perfection. We're looking for progress. Right. So continuing to make progress, you can't know all the things. You can't learn all the things you can't retain, all the things. It's not possible. So, um. Progress. Not perfection. Take [00:50:00] the time. Know where to find the information you need. But you don't need to know everything. Like no one is. Has the entire tax code memorized? Okay, maybe somebody does, but I doubt it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, maybe Mark Gallegos, he's he's pretty amazing, but, uh. Yeah, most not. Not most folks. Um, actually, you you came up with a really good idea for, um, not just redefining that competence. Where where we're we've got progress. Our goal is progress, not perfection. Um, but, [00:50:30] like tracking that. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Or keeping track of at least keeping track of what your wins are and making sure that you're celebrating them. I mean, I don't specifically journal because I'm a verbal I'm an auditory processor. So I want to say things out loud rather than journaling. But, um, you know, sharing it with family, friends, mentors, keep track of it in some way of your accomplishments because you lose sight of them really easily. You know, you start to forget what [00:51:00] you know, what what you've done. I think someone asked me recently like, oh, how many webinars do you teach? How many? And I had to sit back and go start thinking about it. I was like, wow, this is actually quite a few. And they're, you know, there's a few people in those. And so, um, I think that's important. And you mentioned mentorship and community and that's, you know, we we just have beat that over the head. And.
Nancy McClelland: It's so true, though. It's so true. Um, my my friend Nadia Rodriguez, [00:51:30] she's she's in theater, public speaking as well. Um, she was talking about, um, how she needed to put together, uh, a list of all of the presentations and podcasts that she has done. And, um, I think she was trying to come up with a speaker sheet and I gave her, as an example, the presentations and podcasts page on my website, and she was like, oh my gosh, no, I've your list is so long, I'll never have anything like that. And then she actually went [00:52:00] and did it and I think she blew me away. I mean, like it was such a such. So that's kind of a combination of keeping a wins journal, you know, or. Yeah, I don't journal either. But I love this page on my website that lists all of the podcasts and the presentations that I've done. I absolutely love it. And when she did it for herself, not only did she get to track the facts, as you were just saying, but we also got to celebrate her in our community and say, wow, [00:52:30] look at you. Look at all you did. And I got celebrated. Look at you and all you did. So yes. Um, and that's that goes.
Questian Telka: To setting your own metrics of success, right? So being able to look back at those. Don't worry about what other external metrics there are. Determine your why and what it means to you individually. And that that can really that can really help as well. So and that's.
Nancy McClelland: A combined thing because you've got external metrics of success, but then you also [00:53:00] have wanting to be public with your community and sharing with them. And so, you know, it's it's a blend, I think, of, um, finding external reminders of your successes, but not holding yourself up to somebody else's random definition of what success is.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I agree.
Nancy McClelland: And in addition to all of these things we've got, there are so many coping mechanisms out there normalizing the feeling, recognizing that everybody feels this way. [00:53:30] Creating affirming work environments, holding societal systems accountable. That's something Nicole Davis talks about a lot calling these things out, and I want to recommend a doctor, Valerie Young. She has done a ton of work on this. Uh, she has written a bunch of books, and, um, you can follow her on the Imposter Syndrome Institute because she's got a lot of techniques for for moving through this. Um, thank you so much for being here today, [00:54:00] everyone. It's a big topic, and we will be revisiting it. We'd like to ask listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode, imposter interrupted a time when feeling like an imposter impacted your career and whether you found a way through it. And I want to add to this, I know we came up with a really good idea earlier on in the episode for another question that you could answer, and I don't remember what it was, so if you want to answer that one [00:54:30] instead, if you were excited about that and you're like, no, that's the one I want to answer, So answer that one instead. Go for it, folks.
Questian Telka: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Tara Moore. We think the doubt and fear we feel means we aren't ready. But doubt and fear are signs we're playing bigger, not signs we aren't good enough. And that's from her book Playing Big.
Nancy McClelland: Thanks for Being here with us on She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. [00:55:00]
Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen, heard and never alone.
Questian Telka: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening on earmarks and links to that, and any other resources will be in the show notes.
Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it actually helps other people find the podcast and share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear [00:55:30] it too.
Questian Telka: And we'll see everyone again in two weeks. Bye.