There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Questian Telka: Nancy, I have to say that out of all of the episodes we've recorded, this two part live recording on the main stage at the AF Women Who Count conference was absolutely the best so far.
Nancy McClelland: I feel the same. Seeing all those faces in the audience and hearing from women who've been directly impacted by sexual harassment. And of course, working with Cami and Julie, it was everything I hoped it would be. I'm so glad you came up with this crazy idea. [00:00:30]
Questian Telka: Ah. Thank you. For listeners who have no clue what we're talking about, we invited an employment attorney, Cami Hoskins, and an HR expert, Julie Thiel, to join us on stage to discuss sexual harassment in accounting from the perspective of employees, employers, and even small business owners and their own clients.
Nancy McClelland: It was a two CPE session at Women Who Count, and so we've split it into two podcast episodes. Part [00:01:00] one aired on December 31st and you're about to hear part two.
Questian Telka: Huge thanks to our sponsors, Forwardly Relay and Client Hub for helping us bring these conversations out into the open. It's so important.
Nancy McClelland: Remember, you can go to earmarked to earn CPE credit, and please follow The Accounting Podcast on LinkedIn to join in on the conversation.
Julie Thiel: And [00:01:30] I want to expand our focus to to say that, um, any sort of harassment, sexual harassment or otherwise by clients or by vendors, um, is also something that can and needs to be addressed. And so, um, you know, in my seat, I've had HR people from other companies come to me and say, you know, this is what happened between your employee and my employee. And then, you know, I've done my part of [00:02:00] the investigation and addressed what was brought to me and vice versa, where I've brought something to another organization and, and brought that forward as well. So, um, so we're not this you are protected both within your company and in how you're interacting with others as well. Now, it's always it's always a little bit more complicated to address, certainly. But just know that it is not just your team, your company. It goes beyond that.
Questian Telka: How do you how do you address it? I [00:02:30] mean, those are that's very complicated, right? If you have a client that's sexually that's sexually harassing one of your team members, what are some methods for managing that situation?
Julie Thiel: I think it's just the same as you would. I mean, you have to be a little. I mean, you have to inform certainly the client, the person that owns the client relationship of what's going on. But the investigation is the same. The the standards are the same. The investigation is the same.
Nancy McClelland: And what about in a situation where you're, um, you're running your firm, and you have a client [00:03:00] of yours who is sexually harassing you or one of your employees. I mean, I have a very small firm. There are only nine of us. Um, and, and and most of the folks are part time. If something like that were happening, I don't have an HR department. Like, do you call do you call a lawyer? Do you call? I mean, the lawyers that I know are small business lawyers. You know, they're not lawyers. You're going to have cammie's expertise. Um, we don't have an HR department, do I? Do I call an independent HR? I would love to [00:03:30] hear both of your answers, because I'm guessing there are a lot of people, um, in this room and who are also regular, regular listeners of the podcast who would like to know that.
Julie Thiel: I would say as you're growing your company, you definitely want to have some sort of HR resource that you've at least built a relationship with. Um, that is the type of work I do. Um, and, and it's something where just having to make sure not only you're in compliance, but that you're starting taking steps to build that culture, and you've got somebody to call if there's [00:04:00] an issue. Building that relationship can be important. So yeah, I totally agree. Investing in an HR function early on then develop a business is really hard. This isn't the kind of stuff you want to guess about. So, um, it's good to educate ourselves and know you know what the boundaries are to have our policies and to enforce them. But it's better. I always say an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure in these situations. But it also raises something for me that I've been wanting to say out loud [00:04:30] is as amazing and important as the HR function is. How many of you are people, managers or supervisors in your organizations so you are obligated to report if you have heard from somebody else that they are experiencing behavior that they find is unwelcome.
Nancy McClelland: And for our audience who's listening, that was easily 80% of the room. If not, if not more.
Kami Hoskins: Yes. So to me, the supervisor can carry the wood and water of getting the message to the Human Resources department to kick off the investigation. [00:05:00] It doesn't have to be the employee themselves. It's on all of us to make sure that the information gets to this function. And then the investigation happens. And the last thing I'll say is the goal of a good investigation is if there is a finding that there was some bad behavior is for the behavior to stop. It's not to put the person in the public square and to flog them. It's not to cause them physical harm or to embarrass or shame them. It's to stop the behavior. And sometimes the behavior is so extreme [00:05:30] that means the person has lost their job. But sometimes it's one of those areas where there is an intervention. Behavior stops and we can go on. So I think that's just really important to remember that the goal is to stop the behavior.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And there is also situations where sometimes it has to go beyond the employer. And so there are lawsuits that are that happen and take place. But I think it's also important to recognize that that's not the goal when people are reporting sexual harassment, right? Nobody wants [00:06:00] it to get to that point. But sometimes it it does and it needs to get to that point. Do you have any have any tips? I mean, I know that this is your internal in HR and you represent employers. But if it gets to that point for someone, where do they go specifically? I want to roll back a little bit to the retaliation because I know there are some specific resources in that regard.
Kami Hoskins: Sure. So I always recommend and when I do training for employees, I always [00:06:30] recommend start with your employer first, follow policies, let them know, try to get it resolved. But there's always opportunities to go outside of the organization. There are state and federal agencies that enforce these laws. So in Arizona, I'm here, I'm an attorney. In Arizona, there's the Arizona Civil Rights division. The federal level is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and there's agencies that enforce these laws. And then obviously you could hire a lawyer if you wanted to do that. Um, and then I could defend against [00:07:00] the claim.
Questian Telka: And that's kind of scary.
Nancy McClelland: To a resolution.
Julie Thiel: Like, no, no, I don't think I want to mess with her. I know the goal is to resolve it.
Nancy McClelland: Although it does bring up a good point, which is that, you know, many of us here do fractional CFO work, and it's called fractional because it means they don't have to. The client does not have to have a full time CFO on staff. We're just a fraction of [00:07:30] their workforce, right. And we're they're outsourcing that one function. We can have an outsourced legal department. We can have an outsourced HR department. I mean, that's literally what you two are in a sense, like they would you're hired. You're hired. Then I'm hiring you right now.
Nancy McClelland: Excellent. Excellent.
Nancy McClelland: But I really I really had not until we started working with you on this topic, I hadn't really [00:08:00] thought of the fact that, you know, I have somebody that I could outsource marketing to, but I've never thought about outsourcing, uh, HR or legal. And that is something that we all have within our reach.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I think it's, um, so you mentioned tell me what the abbreviation stands for.
Julie Thiel: Eeoc Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
Questian Telka: And that's actually where this piece of data came from. That's on the screen right now. So those are, those are um, [00:08:30] scenarios where it did actually go beyond being able to be managed internally. So.
Nancy McClelland: Um, Tammy, what are some strategies that can be used by employees to resist this unwelcome behavior?
Kami Hoskins: Well, I.
Julie Thiel: Think we've talked about some of them already, but to me it's I've done a lot of diversity and inclusion training for most of my life, and it's always easier to interrupt bad behaviors when they're sort of lower level, right? So when we start to see [00:09:00] like a weird comment or a weird joke, it's easy to just it's easier to say, like what? Or that was weird or just like, even a weird facial expression or like, it doesn't have to be like, that was horribly offensive. And you must stop your behavior. It's just the little things help.
Nancy McClelland: I love the voice you used there. That's definitely the voice I use when I get to that point.
Kami Hoskins: We all wish we could invoke that person, but, you know. So to me, it starts low and interrupting those things. And then, as you know, the behaviors get more problematic [00:09:30] and more concerning. There are different strategies. And definitely reaching out for help, I think is a really good strategy. If it's the kind of behavior that's affecting your willingness to show up, to work, to be your whole self, it's affecting you on a daily basis. That's the time to see if there's somebody that can help you.
Questian Telka: Julie, do you have any any tips to add?
Julie Thiel: Sure. I would just build off of the fact that when people have come to me, it's because they no longer they don't want to work with that person. They, [00:10:00] you know, catch themselves not wanting to go into work anymore. They don't want to work with that client anymore. I mean, it really, I mean, that emotion is kind of the universal feeling as these things, um, progress that, that I often hear. So I just want to build on that further that you really described what I often hear in those situations. What I would say is very similar. I mean, I think that you have to practice speaking up and you have to practice, like we said, the flexing that muscle of saying, um, [00:10:30] you know what, I disagree. Or if somebody says something, here's my favorite one. And I shared this this in a different conversation earlier. One of my favorite things is to say, if someone says something that is offensive or uncomfortable, just to say, what did you mean by that?
Questian Telka: I love that one.
Julie Thiel: That's my favorite. It's just.
Questian Telka: Like.
Nancy McClelland: What did you mean by that?
Julie Thiel: What did you mean?
Questian Telka: I'm sorry. What did you say?
Julie Thiel: Yeah, exactly. It's like kind of that. Excuse me. Did I hear you correctly? Um. And because what that does is it's just because people oftentimes they're [00:11:00] not really thinking very deeply about what they're saying. And it just kind of calls the question of that pause for people to reflect again and be like, oh, what? Well, what did I mean by that? Or maybe that was something that.
Nancy McClelland: Was and we actually talked about this. And when we were preparing for the podcast, I remember when you when you told me that I went, oh, that's what I should have said. Uh, Questian and I were at an accounting conference earlier this year, and we were in the bar area, as I [00:11:30] usually am. Um, and, and a woman made there was a group of people and a woman made a very inappropriate comment, which I will not repeat because it's a totally it's so inappropriate. I can't even put it on the podcast. Oh my gosh. Yes.
Questian Telka: And I don't remember. What this.
Nancy McClelland: You don't remember this story? Yeah. A woman said this about a gentleman. Um, said I, I would sleep with you, but [00:12:00] she said it in different words, and we were all just stunned. It was such an inappropriate. I mean, if a man had said that to a woman, there is just no way that they would have gotten away with it. But I think we were just all so stunned because it was a woman saying it to a man, to the point that cameo was making about the 20%, and none of us knew what to say. And I think, what did you mean by that? Would have been a perfect I mean, [00:12:30] she was pretty clear about what she meant. Uh, but also, I think that would have been a really great opportunity to to shine a very bright spotlight on that moment and make her realize that that was a completely inappropriate thing without just. I think I would have felt too uncomfortable to say. Dude, that is totally inappropriate. You cannot say that. But what did you mean by that? I think is a really great response. I mean, I think what I ended up saying was like, awkward.
Questian Telka: Um, [00:13:00] it's also great. That's a great response, too. Yeah.
Julie Thiel: I was going to say like, wow.
Questian Telka: Right? Like what? Like, did.
Nancy McClelland: You.
Questian Telka: Just say that? Yeah.
Julie Thiel: Do you, did you just say what I think you said? Yeah. So yeah, I think I will. This conversation just kind of brings back as an HR person, any time that there were large conferences that the team went to, I always kind of held my breath because unfortunately, when people are relaxed and in informal [00:13:30] settings and there's, you know, kind of the parties afterwards and all of those things, those were often the situations where people made bad decisions or, um, no matter what it was. I mean, it was just kind of the universal, uh, so I think, I think part of this is just being aware of the situations you're walking into and just being self-aware. I mean, I think that is probably the best skill that you can have and that periodic kind of checking in with yourself to say, you [00:14:00] know, how do I feel about what's going on? How do I feel about what I'm seeing? Is there anyone I'm concerned about, not only for yourself, but for other people? Um, because, as was mentioned, as a manager, you have a responsibility to watch out for your team and you are accountable. Um, in the law for if you knew or should have known something was happening. So I'm a big advocate for developing good, strong relationships with your team. Uh, not just professionally, but [00:14:30] having that trust personally and that trust that you invest in along the way. That is gold. Not only does it help you be more productive at work, it builds stronger teams. And when hard times happen, whether it's this type of situation or really anything else. You have the foundation there that you can build on towards helping that person or helping the team get to a better place.
Nancy McClelland: And as firm runners, is that something that we can also do to, um, you [00:15:00] know, Cammy, you had mentioned you do, you know, Dei training and, um, Julie, you've mentioned that you do coaching. Um, can we I don't know, I have a remote team, but I would love for them to go through coaching and training in these kinds of situations. The, um, city of Chicago requires a sexual harassment, um, like webinar that we have to do every year. Um, and, and it is absolutely ridiculous. And I'll [00:15:30] just tell you, I appreciate the fact that they have the requirement, but the actual training.
Questian Telka: Is terrible, which is often the case. Right? Right. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Right. So I mean, is how how do we handle that to how do we bring somebody in for that? Um, again, many of us run remote or hybrid teams. Are there any good resources out there that are not completely ridiculous? I mean, I honestly, I felt like I was, you know, when you're in high school and [00:16:00] you have to take the get your driver's license and they make you watch the safety videos and they're just so awful. I mean, like, so ridiculous. This this was like that.
Questian Telka: Like, can we make it entertaining somehow so we're not falling asleep while we're listening to it. So the state.
Julie Thiel: Of California actually has some pretty juicy training. I don't know if any of you have done it. They have some pretty, like, interesting videos that go along with their training. But I think a lot of juicy training. You should go. You should go check out what they have available publicly. But I think a lot of the problem with that is they have to [00:16:30] kind of do sterilized, neutral, applicable to all workplaces. The best kind of training is training that's really targeted to your specific workplace, understands your industry, understands your your culture, what you expect, how you want people to interact with each other and then also shares the legal boundaries. I think it's really helpful. And so like obviously lawyers or HR folks can do that kind of training for you. Um, I would say do it at least once a year. And then if you have a problem, you might need to [00:17:00] do it more often.
Julie Thiel: I love that suggestion. And you know, unfortunately, you know, requirements or requirements. I mean, it's like the things that you have to do to check the box. Sometimes you just have to do.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, I'm glad it exists. You know, kudos to Chicago for making that happen, especially. I mean, I think that their focus was specifically on restaurant workers, which, you know, makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Julie Thiel: I mean, what I would encourage you to do is think through scenarios and even have you have you get your team together. Um, [00:17:30] consider doing a few scenarios like to say, okay, so we took this training. You can laugh about how silly it was or whatever. You can kind of debrief on it a little bit, but then you can also say, you know, this is something that's really important to me as a firm owner. I just wanted us to take, you know, 20 minutes to talk through. You know, you could pull a couple scenarios.
Nancy McClelland: I talked about.
Julie Thiel: Even here and, and just bring it to life a little bit. And, and it's really important. Um, it's really important that people know that you care about it. I mean, it's like [00:18:00] to say, look, you know, I don't want anyone here to feel uncomfortable, and and this is the type of culture I want, a culture where we trust each other. We're working together that we have. It goes back to what.
Nancy McClelland: You were saying about building those relationships with your employees. Um, as a supervisor or manager or owner.
Julie Thiel: Because I always look at it like, yes, the policy exists, but it's always based on a principle, right? Like, there's always something there's some reason why that exists. And the reason why it exists is because we do want people to feel [00:18:30] comfortable at work. I mean, like we want that. So again, the policy is the policy. The law is a law for sure. You need to have those things in place. But what really people will stick with is that if you tie it to a principle that is true for your firm, if your firm's like we're all about. Everyone's got different integrity statements and code of conduct and things like that. But to say, you know, we believe this is what we believe. This is what my firm believes. This is how we're going to treat each other. And guess what part of that is sexual harassment training. Part of that is discrimination. [00:19:00] Part of that is ethics. I mean, those things all fit into really the environment that you're trying to create and the best, the best organizations I've worked for. Yes, the policies are on the page, but it ties to behavior you see universally.
Nancy McClelland: And it's as if you just brought us right into.
Questian Telka: The next.
Nancy McClelland: Question there, Julie. This is a question actually for both of you. So I'm going to start with Cami, because she probably is going to want to build [00:19:30] off of of some of what you just said. From your perspective, what are the signs that an organization truly values accountability and respect versus just checking the boxes on this compliance training.
Julie Thiel: Well, the thing policy training and enforcing those things I think are incredibly important. And then I think creating a culture where people feel like they can bring themselves to work and that's everybody, right? So everybody feels that they [00:20:00] can do their best work. And so to me that it's a culture where people can speak up. And so if you have a culture where people can speak up about anything, it's going to be more natural for them to speak up about these hard things.
Nancy McClelland: That's an excellent point, I love that. Um, you know, John Garrett, he, uh, runs the the what's your and podcast and has a book called What's your and which is about um, saying, oh, you know, what do you who are you? You say, oh, I'm an accountant and I'm a dancer. [00:20:30] Um, so you're bringing your whole self to work. As you pointed out, he actually did a keynote at Bridging the Gap, which is my very favorite conference. As a matter of fact, this week's episode of She Counts was recorded live at the Bridging the Gap conference. And I can see Randy in the in the audience here. Thank you for being here. Yes. Um, but he, John Garrett, gave a really compelling people who know me really well know I'm, I'm not really into keynotes that much like the emotional this and [00:21:00] that and whatever, but I cried when he spoke. I absolutely cried because it was all about what you're talking about. Here. You will build tighter bonds and personal relationships with your team members if you genuinely care about them, which shouldn't be a shocker. Yeah. Um, but this is a great example. You're saying bring your make a culture where they feel comfortable bringing their whole selves to work, and that you can talk about what you do outside of work, what your passions [00:21:30] are, um, what moves you. And then they are going to also be more likely.
Kami Hoskins: And what happens when people do that? Well, conflicts will arise, right? So it's very natural that we're going to all have different lived experiences. And so if I bring my whole self to work, it might not reflect well on your whole self. And there may be some friction that happens in those moments. But a really strong culture has a strategy for navigating that friction and allowing the whole team to stay focused on [00:22:00] what the common goal is for the organization, and to allow growth through this interaction so that we can keep moving forward and developing, I think, as an organization, because it's nice to say bring your whole self to work, but it's like I don't, you know, I know you don't need to know everything about me. And if I bring this and somebody has an issue with it, it could create some friction. So it's good to be prepared for that.
Questian Telka: So how do you create that culture?
Kami Hoskins: I think it starts from the top. I really think that leadership really [00:22:30] sets the tone in most organizations. And so helping leadership set the tone of emotional intelligence, of inclusivity, of being able to work through issues and challenges, of having a workplace where everybody's voice is valued. Those things matter, and people will follow those sorts of behaviors. And if you're one of those folks and you're like, I just need to get my work done, there's, you know, you can bring in a strong number two that can help [00:23:00] you sort of carry that sort of messaging within the organization and sort of be like the people person for the organization. But I think every, every firm needs the leader to reflect the values of the organization that they want to see.
Julie Thiel: Yeah. And I just to build on that, I think, again, I hope we get a chance to work together because it's like we're very like minded. Um, so one of the organizations I had some experience in really focused on what's called authentic leadership, [00:23:30] and it really did start at the top. So leaders shared, um, Um, how you know, their values and how they came to believe in their values through their own personal stories. And it was one of those things that was really fascinating. Interesting because most people don't take the time to think about, you know, why do I believe what I believe, what is really important to me? And, you know, we all have these kind of pivotal moments in our lives where, you know, it really formed who we are and what we believe. And we had some leaders stand up and senior leaders [00:24:00] and share very personal stories about their struggles and and their challenges and kind of where they where they are today. And it's not something that was required because of course, everyone's got a little different comfortability with that. But the way I pull that down and that created a culture where people did feel like they could be really open and and felt connected with each other in ways beyond just the title and the work. And, uh, you know, I, I what I have learned from that is that most leaders get put into [00:24:30] leadership positions without any training or anything at all. It's like, good luck. Deep end of the pool. Here you go. Oh my goodness.
Nancy McClelland: This is so true. And it happens at at some of the biggest organizations. My husband's a software developer, and for a time he worked at Microsoft. Um, and, uh, somebody was promoted from a software developer position into a management position. And they found out because somebody in the hallway said, well, I guess it sounds like I report to you now. And he went, what? [00:25:00] And they said, oh, check your email. And an email had gone out promoting him and copying everybody who was on his team. And he had not and he had not been informed of this. So now you're taking somebody who's an introverted, um, software developer who's very good at his technical task, and now he is managing people, and that is how he got informed. Now, it's not like they don't have resources at Microsoft for making sure that they're getting managerial training. [00:25:30] But you know, it it happens everywhere.
Julie Thiel: And but those are the gaps that I think lead to like start the ball rolling down some of these, uh, very unintentional culture. Sometimes culture just happens because people don't know what else to do. And this idea, I think it does take training and just guidance to really, um, you know, again, some people are intuitively good at building those cultures. Not everyone is. And so providing training of some sort to leaders that [00:26:00] helps you with better communication, um, creating consistent standards across your team, knowing how to handle the variety of issues that come up either through different stages in your life, different performance, different knowledge, different backgrounds. It's like, you know, that is that is hard to know how to handle sometimes. And so I think investing in leadership training and having a focus on that, to me, that does tend to differentiate, uh, good, good companies from great companies [00:26:30] in a lot of cases. And not to say that they're immune to issues like sexual harassment, but at least you've kind of upped the odds that people are going to know how to handle things and handle things in a way that they show care and concern for others.
Questian Telka: It's almost like you predicted the question that we were going to ask you next. You're very good at this. What are the biggest differences you see between organizations that just have policies in place and those that actually create the safe, accountable cultures, which you've already kind of touched on, but you can elaborate more.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. [00:27:00] And, Tammy, if you had anything to to add, because we've already figured out that the two of them are very like minded, which I have to, you know, they did not know each other before we put this together. As a matter of fact, and this is a huge compliment to the Afwa Women Who Count conference where we're recording this, um, is that question. And I went through the existing speakers that were on the list, and we looked at, uh, the topics that they were discussing [00:27:30] and then looked up each one of these people on the interwebs and we were like, wow, we've got two powerhouse women who could actually who are already speaking at this conference. So that really speaks to AF and the women who count conferences being a place that really attracts some top tier speakers, if I do say so.
Questian Telka: We were very excited, very excited. After we spoke with both of you and Nancy and I were like, oh my gosh, we found we found.
Nancy McClelland: Them and they're perfect. So it [00:28:00] is it is really amazing that you have so many. You're clearly on the same wavelength. So Cami, did you want to build on that?
Kami Hoskins: Well, first of all, thank you that's very kind. That's true. And likewise, you two are phenomenal. I feel very honored to be part of this discussion. You know, I would say since you all are in the financial world, data is your friend. You can actually look at the data and see if your culture is working for you. You can look at your retention Attention numbers. You [00:28:30] can look at efficiency metrics. You can look at promotion metrics. You can look at your pay metrics. You can take a look at the numbers to see what kind of organization that you have. Um.
Nancy McClelland: Was that you who delivered the talk earlier on using IA to dig into the data of employment? That wasn't you. It wasn't me. No, I don't know who who gave that talk. And I didn't get a chance to attend it. Actually, it might be tomorrow. Who knows if it hasn't happened yet, we should all probably go to it.
Kami Hoskins: Yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:29:00] looking at pay equity is a really easy thing to take a look at is how are you paying folks across genders and are there is there a difference there in terms of same role, same experience, different comp? That's a metric to take a look at. Um, you know, so in addition to all the warm and fuzzy stuff that we've sort of been talking about, there is really tactical, measurable sort of metrics they think organizations can look at to make sure that they're keeping themselves honest in this work.
Nancy McClelland: Well, [00:29:30] we do have time for a couple of audience questions. I can bring the microphone over to you if anybody would like to stand up.
Questian Telka: We also have if somebody wants to ask an anonymous question, you can go into minty and they will pop up here and we can answer them as well.
Nancy McClelland: So wonderful. So if you've got a question that you would like to, if you'd like to ask it into the microphone, stand up and I will bring it over to you. If you would prefer to ask it, uh, [00:30:00] into the okay.
Nancy McClelland: We got A QR code is up on the screen. All right. We have our first victim. No. We're safe, I promise. Oh, this is Catherine Platten.
Katie - Audience Member: I go by Katie. Katie. So it's not really so much a question, but, um, I worked for a not for profit, um, healthcare company, and it was almost all women, but the leadership were men. But they put everyone in a situation where we felt comfortable and, [00:30:30] um, it's not so much a question, but like the coming from the top, they called it the tone from the top. And that was something that they went through everything, every single meeting that they went through. They started with a tone at the top, coming from the board members and from the executive leadership, the CEO, the CFO, the all the kind of things. And it was a very open and honest discussion. And, um, it changed how the company was run [00:31:00] because it was such a they.
Nancy McClelland: Did this at every meeting?
Katie - Audience Member: Yes, every single meeting, budget meetings. You had um, the started with a prayer. It was a religious company, but it started with a prayer and a shout out to someone who was living the tone at the top every single meeting. It didn't matter what it was for. If it was a budget meeting, we were we. We would start with a prayer and a tone at the top. Like. And then we would jump into you're losing $200 [00:31:30] million. What is.
Questian Telka: What is.
Katie - Audience Member: Start with a tone at the top.
Nancy McClelland: That's beautiful. I love that suggestion. That's absolutely. Thank you so much, Katie, for sharing that with us. Anybody else? Oh, we.
Kami Hoskins: Got one thing. And I'm curious, Julie, what you think. But I think what, Katie, what you said resonates so deeply that I don't think leaders understand how often employees need to hear the message, like it's not something that you can give once a year or twice a year, that employees need repetition on [00:32:00] the message about the values of the organization and the standards of our our communication.
Katie - Audience Member: That they had 13 meetings in one day because we had to get all of these budgets done in every single meeting if it switched out people.
Nancy McClelland: So she's saying, Katie, saying that even if they had like 13 meetings in one day, they would, you know, switch switch it out for every single meeting. I love that, Julie.
Julie Thiel: That's creating a company based on principle or the principle that drives everything. So those are that is really [00:32:30] to me, the gold standard. If you can create a principle based organization or a values based organization and then keep talking about it, it really is a powerful thing that and it's and it's something that once it's free to talk about it, I mean once you establish it, it's just the discipline. And that's often what's missing.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah, absolutely. Just a reminder that you can scan that QR code that is up on the screen. If you would like to submit a question anonymously, Michelle has something she'd like to add.
Michelle - Audience Member: So [00:33:00] I'm a volunteer firefighter and we're 100% volunteer run. And as you can guess, almost men, you know, almost. Well, we're actually fortunate because we have about ten women that run. But, um, my question is, how do you educate those volunteers that this is not their primary job. You know, they have a full time job to adequately, [00:33:30] um, investigate a situation without immediately because we've had a situation where someone came to the chief said that someone else was sexually harassed. He immediately went to the people that were being accused and told them if it happened again, they would be immediately expelled. It was found out later that the other person lied. Oh, wow. So how and then what do [00:34:00] those people that were, um, accused, you know, that were accused? You know, how what do they have as a repercussion? You know, because it could ruin their lives?
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Kami Hoskins: I think that's a great example.
Kami Hoskins: And if you remember, I said that retaliation protects good faith reports of these issues, and I don't like to talk about it too much because I don't want to chill the conversation. But there are absolutely bad actors that use these [00:34:30] sorts of laws to benefit them in a way that's inauthentic and not in good faith. So, um, these retaliation protections don't protect somebody who's not reporting, honestly. And I think, you know, in an organization like that, it's that's why that investigation is so critical, because we want to do all that good fact gathering that Julie was talking about before. We make some decisions about what to do next. Yep. And the other thing I think that's really great about your story is that volunteers are an extension [00:35:00] of the organization, and we need to fold them in to our policies, just like we have expectations of our vendors and consultants. Volunteers, too, can do a tremendous amount of damage if they're not properly trained and engaged.
Michelle - Audience Member: Yeah. And it was actually the assistant chief that this went to.
Nancy McClelland: Could you use the microphone?
Michelle - Audience Member: It was actually assistant chief because the real chief, the head chief was out of town. Um, and the chief's response was, well, you know how he is. That's just how he is.
Nancy McClelland: Oh [00:35:30] my goodness, that one kills me. It's just how he is. Yeah.
Julie Thiel: And so you can see the importance, like we've said, of the investigation of collecting facts, kind of going through it in a calm way. I think what I really picked up from what you said, too, is that they took action, but it was reactive and it was without it was with, you know, it was on emotion and momentum, not on thoughtful fact gathering and decision making. So that's that's really what is important here.
Nancy McClelland: Boys [00:36:00] will be boys. So let's just excuse all of it. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Kimberly has something she'd like to ask.
Kimberly - Audience Member: I do and I publicly speak quite often, but I'm very nervous about this subject because it's kind of personal to me from an experience at a company I used to work at. So when you talk about HR protecting the employer, which I understand so many women this happens to in private, no [00:36:30] one witnesses it. It's only between that individual and the woman. Or it could be a man. But how do you prove that like this happened? But it's your word against their word. And usually that person is in power, so close to the people at the top. So that makes it really like for me, it wasn't uncomfortable. I wasn't going to stand for it, even though it was scary to approach and report. But many women, they're uncomfortable. [00:37:00] They're afraid because they know from working in that company, it's going to be my word against their word. So how do you when you ask for proof, you ask for screenshots. Like there are none. There's no cameras when it's just you and that person working alone together. So classic.
Nancy McClelland: He said. She said.
Julie Thiel: First of all, I want to recognize the courage that it took not only to address that at your workplace, but to mention this to the group now. So thank you. Thank you for being vulnerable and putting yourself out there to the group. And, [00:37:30] um, and it's a really it's a really good point because a lot of situations are exactly what you said. So if they're if they're I still collect the facts that I still collect the, the what what you experienced. Right. And then I will go to the person that that and collect their experience. And then my job then is to I have to make a decision, an informed decision. And if it's a complicated situation, um, certainly [00:38:00] bring in attorney, uh, talk to attorney and all of that. But if there's no reason for me not to believe you, do you? I mean, like like, I would, I would, you know, still address it. It still can be addressed. And that's where HR is in theory. Not every HR team, but we are neutral and our job is to hold everybody accountable. So you can still I mean, that is entirely it's a very real situation. Still can be addressed, still will be addressed. [00:38:30]
Kimberly - Audience Member: So, um, more women need to know that, that they can approach HR, that it's not only there to protect employers. You know, they employees should have some protection too.
Nancy McClelland: So absolutely. And, Cammy, I wanted to ask you as a sort of follow up to that, what happens when you get into a court situation where you have no proof because this happened in private?
Kami Hoskins: Yeah. I mean, I also want to acknowledge and honor [00:39:00] your share. I think that is really helpful to the conversation and really brave. And I have to imagine other folks are resonating with you on that comment. And just to reiterate, in those moments, the goals for the behavior to stop. So if there's strategies that the HR team and the organization can engage with you to make sure that doesn't happen again. I think that's incredibly important. So, you know, not being alone in the room with that person again, [00:39:30] being assigned, um, an minder, not to you, but to that person having checking check ins with that person. Right. So there are ways to address that, that don't have to be as scary as filing a lawsuit or having the person be terminated. So I just want to underscore why it's so important to to bring those forward. But if there's no proof, it's hard to win in court. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. So, I mean, that's true of any lawsuit. It's [00:40:00] true of a dog bite. It's true of sexual harassment. If there's no proof, it's. What's a jury going to do with no proof? But that doesn't mean that there aren't a whole other, like, universe of resolutions that are available to ensure that your these folks are staying engaged and, you know, productive in the workplace and that the behavior stops.
Kimberly - Audience Member: I ended up leaving that company by choice because I did not feel comfortable with him still there. But if I prevented this from happening [00:40:30] to anyone else, I didn't want to go to court. But that was enough for me to speak up so I could prevent some other young woman from ever going through that again. So.
Julie Thiel: Well, and what you don't know is this could be the third time that someone's come to HR with that issue. I mean, so that's the other piece that I just want to which you'll never know that, uh, when you come forward. But I mean, it could be the second, it could be the third, it could be part of a trend that HR and management is actively working to behind the scenes. [00:41:00] So so that coming forward is incredibly important. Um, for that reason as well. So.
Nancy McClelland: Um, Shirley has got something that she'd like to ask.
Shirley - Audience Member: I'm not sure if it's asked, but also make a statement of having been at a company where we I was interviewed when somebody else was on the receiving end. And even in that position, you're scared and worried about retaliation. It's a good point. So when you do those interviews, I think it's also important for the other folks that [00:41:30] you're asking to make sure that they feel safe, too, because oftentimes it is an observational situation.
Julie Thiel: That's right. So we're we're reminding everyone that's involved about retaliation and confidentiality and the importance of that as we go through this. It's a very good point. So yeah.
Kami Hoskins: And we call a bystander intervention in the law. But you're doing a service to to your fellow employee but also to your company. Right. Like it is so scary. But I just want to reward you [00:42:00] for doing that. It's a really amazing thing to support another coworker. And the only obligation you have in that moment is to tell the truth. Right? And if you tell the truth, it's up to the employer to do what they do with that information. So it's definitely scary and love the reminder that anybody participating in the process, whether it's the person who's the recipient or witnesses, the retaliation is prohibited there.
Questian Telka: We also have some five actually now anonymous questions. [00:42:30] So the first one, someone higher up at a previous company asked me if my boobs were fake. Is this sexual harassment? I didn't report him because he was an executive at the company.
Nancy McClelland: And before anybody answers that question, can we just agree ahead of time that no matter what the answer is, he's an asshole?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Like, was it unwelcome would be my question, right? Was it unwelcome? Yeah. We can, we can, we can swear.
Julie Thiel: I just have to say any comments [00:43:00] about anyone's body for any reason. Not cool. Not okay. I mean, I just think as a general rule, I think commenting on bodies. Yeah. Just not just don't do it. Just don't do it.
Kami Hoskins: Yeah. And I think that what we're getting at here is the question of is this harassment? I'm not going to say if it is or isn't, because usually it's a jury or judge that gets to make those decisions. Is it problematic behavior that should not have happened in the workplace? Absolutely. Yeah.
Questian Telka: And it it sounds like it was unwelcome to your point [00:43:30] earlier poor judgment.
Kami Hoskins: I mean it's like that's. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And again it he was not reported because he was an executive at the company. I mean, this is this is extremely common.
Questian Telka: Not feeling safe.
Kami Hoskins: A lot of employers have anonymous ethics helplines.
Questian Telka: So that's a really good.
Kami Hoskins: Check that out. If you're worried about a situation like this, that's a great opportunity to report anonymously. And having been on the inside of a legal department, I can tell you a lot [00:44:00] of the work goes into maintaining the anonymity. Of course, sometimes if you have to get interviewed that your identity will be revealed. But for the most part, I think a lot of organizations really try to protect that.
Julie Thiel: So I mean, I can I can just attest to the fact that for smaller companies that don't have that, occasionally someone would create a fake, um, email address and then send us their concerns. In this case, it was mostly about either safety issues or about, um, fraud. [00:44:30] And so I didn't have any specific for sexual harassment, but those would come through through a fake email and then we would investigate it. So anything that comes in your HR team and the company has an obligation to investigate. So if you do see something that you're concerned about, I mean, it makes it hard because we can't ask you questions and get more facts than what you send to us. But it's something it's some, some way of getting it forward.
Questian Telka: So we have, um, only a few more minutes and four more questions. So so rapid fire answer. Rapid [00:45:00] fire I like it. All right.
Nancy McClelland: Question number.
Questian Telka: Two. As someone new to the finance industry, what strategies can I use to set healthy boundaries and build confidence while staying true to my morals and values from day one in the workplace.
Kami Hoskins: Pick a good workplace.
Julie Thiel: Definitely. And I just would say this idea of learning how to speak up for yourself. Um, I think advocating for yourself, finding your voice is incredibly important, and it's never too late [00:45:30] to do that. I was I was 50. Learning how to find my voice. And I still am at 55.
Nancy McClelland: One of the, uh, my favorite quotes is, um, by Misty Mejia from Theater of Public Speaking. She teaches women, women to unmute themselves.
Questian Telka: This one right here. Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Questions. A great example of that. You should listen to our first episode where she talks about that. Um, so yeah, learning to unmute yourself in this, those situations from day one I think is extremely important.
Questian Telka: Okay. So the next question [00:46:00] you mentioned talking to the HR person you trust the most. What would you recommend if your HR team is one person and is not the person you trust? Oh, that's so sad.
Julie Thiel: I talked to a the leader that you trust the most. So anyone that's in a leadership position, preferably as high up as you are comfortable. So, um, I'd go there. Ditto. And if that doesn't work, that's why EEOC and civil rights organizations exist. If you don't feel like you have a voice in your company, that's why those exist, [00:46:30] is for that escalation.
Questian Telka: Okay. The next one, there was an infamous ask a manager story about male clients repeatedly asking out a booking automation with a woman's name. I'm not quite sure I understand that. Um, how do you recommend handling sexual harassment from clients?
Kami Hoskins: Uh policies need to be enforced. You got to share if you're feeling these experiences are happening. And really the analysis and the process and the report [00:47:00] doesn't change if just because the source of the potential harassment was the client.
Katie - Audience Member: Okay.
Questian Telka: All right. And our last one I feel weird because my boss hires just women, because he feels more comfortable with women, and in my humble opinion, he doesn't want to pay full price.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh.
Questian Telka: Wow.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Julie Thiel: Can I just say that makes me sad?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie Thiel: Um, I'm not sure what to say about that. I mean, that would be an organization that [00:47:30] I don't know that that organization is set up for success. Because, again, it's wonderful that women are getting employment opportunities. But it doesn't sound like from what you've described, that it's an organization that's running well. So I just I'm not sure what else to say about that, other than that just feels like an organization that is inherently going to have struggle.
Kami Hoskins: And I guess the only thing I'll add is when I said pick a good workplace. I actually really meant that, like when we're applying for jobs, it's we have a great opportunity [00:48:00] to learn about the culture of an organization and to choose wisely because really, truly culture will dictate the enjoyment that we have in our workplace. So, um, yeah, this is an example of one that doesn't sound very comfortable.
Nancy McClelland: What an amazing conversation. I have learned so much here today. Let's give a hand to our incredible guests.
Questian Telka: And also thank you to everyone who shared questions anonymously as well, um, [00:48:30] as standing up and asking questions. It's it's very brave of everyone.
Nancy McClelland: So we do have a few, uh, she counts pins here. And also at the forwardly booth, which is in the hallway, um, immediately to the the right as you're exiting. Um, not only does she have, uh, she counts pins over there, but she made a special one that was just for this conference that says I count on it. Um, and we would love for you to pick those up. Um, as we wrap up, we'd [00:49:00] like to ask listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode sex in the workplace changing the culture, not just the policy. Your tips for creating a culture where women feel safe speaking up and reporting unwelcome sexual behavior.
Questian Telka: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Melinda Gates. Women speaking up for themselves is the strongest force we have to change the world.
Nancy McClelland: Thanks [00:49:30] for being here with us on She Counts, The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen, heard and never alone.
Questian Telka: And remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarks. If you're here live at the conference with us, be sure to visit Blake and David at the earmark booth and find out how to sign up to get CPE.
Nancy McClelland: Links to that, as well as how to learn more about [00:50:00] our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the show. Notes. Please subscribe. The QR code is up on the screen. If you have not subscribed already and leave us a review if you could, because it turns out that having reviews on there really helps other people find the podcast. And please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Questian Telka: Many thanks to our amazing guests Julie and Cami, whose expertise has been absolutely [00:50:30] invaluable. I know I've learned so much from you both, so thank you.
Nancy McClelland: And we'll see everyone in two weeks. Thank you for being here everyone.
Kami Hoskins: Thank you so much.
Questian Telka: Thank you for joining us for this special two part series on She Counts.
Nancy McClelland: Recorded live at the AF Women Who Count Conference. See you there next year.