There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Questian Telka: Welcome to. She counts, the Real talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the [00:00:30] only one, you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure it all out alone.
Questian Telka: A special thanks to our sponsors, Forwardly Ignition and Keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Today's episode is called She Believed in Me Before I did.
Nancy McClelland: We're going to discuss the importance of mentorship throughout our professional [00:01:00] careers, and why having female mentors is important for both women as well as men. And we love launching each episode with a story question. As usual, I know you have one to share with us.
Questian Telka: Yes, I do have another one. And actually, this story is, um, a really good one because it really formed the premise, don't you think, Nancy? For this particular episode?
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. It really set the stage for, um, [00:01:30] why it planted the seed and also set the stage for like, why do we want to talk about this topic in the first place? Question had texted me and said, oh my gosh, I just had coffee with a colleague of mine and it was such a great eye opening experience. It was really wonderful. And take it away and tell us, tell us what happened.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And she and I shared this recently on, um, the unique CPA podcast when Randy had us on, But while we were [00:02:00] having this conversation, she said something to me that I found very insightful and profound. And it was kind of putting the mentorship idea and the importance of it in one quote for me. And that was that. We see in others what we fail to see in ourselves. And wait.
Nancy McClelland: A minute, I have to stop you right.
Questian Telka: There.
Nancy McClelland: That is such a beautiful quote. Yeah. Say it again.
Questian Telka: We see [00:02:30] in each other what we fail to see in ourselves.
Nancy McClelland: We see in others what we fail to see in ourselves. To me, that is absolutely impactful because whether you're on. It doesn't matter. Like what side of that mentorship relationship you're on. This is true in every direction and in every walk of life.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And even in this conversation that she and I were having. She made several [00:03:00] comments to me about why she looked at me as a mentor to her, and it was things that I, of course, did not recognize within myself that were very reaffirming. And, um, you know, quite honestly, it just feels good to hear from someone that you are having any sort of impact whatsoever, especially when that's something that is intentional for you.
Nancy McClelland: Um.
Questian Telka: I think as women, it is so common [00:03:30] for us to focus on looking at our negatives, looking at things that we aren't good at, that we are often not paying enough attention to what our good traits are, and all of the positives that we bring to the table. And so having other women specifically in our lives that recognize potential in us and.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And they and they help they they help [00:04:00] us. Um, I know one of the things that I struggle with is if I'm naturally good at something, I'm, I don't really take credit for it. I don't think there's any there's nothing impressive about this. It's just. It just is. And then other people will point something out and I'll be like, oh, it turns out not everyone has that skill.
Questian Telka: Um, yes.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah, because you're kind of.
Questian Telka: Thinking about it. It is. And you're not thinking about it because it comes natural.
Nancy McClelland: In this particular situation where you were where you were talking with, um, this friend [00:04:30] of yours. Uh, one of the things that I think is, is worth mentioning about it is that you were mentoring her in this situation, right? Like you were actually. And you saw in her some things that she didn't see in herself. But then when she was pointing that out to you, she ended up calling out as your mentee. She ended up calling out something about you that you had failed to see in yourself. So it went. It went in both [00:05:00] directions, right? What what types of things were you talking to her about when you were, like, helping her see what she couldn't see?
Questian Telka: I was telling her that we were talking about her specifically at that moment, her presence in speaking and social media. And I was telling her how well-spoken she was, how articulate how she is very insightful and very authentic [00:05:30] in the way that she communicates in her social media posts when she's, um, you know, forming and, and getting ready for a presentation and that actually, you know, that conversation continued to move on to this, which formulated, I really think, a big part of what we're talking about today was that it's difficult often because she has she's [00:06:00] in an in an industry or, well, she's in our industry, but she's in a role where most of the men are or most of the leaders. Several of the leaders are males, and they're amazing because they are really advocating and wanting to give her more, more presence and more. They want her to take up more space. So it's incredible that she's got that advocacy, but what she seems [00:06:30] to find is lacking. And what I have also thought is lacking and is difficult to find is female mentors in roles that are leadership roles. So that's one of the or I guess we're going to be really talking about that quite a bit today.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, that gap is is really amazing. I'm, I'm, I don't know how many of our listeners already know these stats, but so just to just to underline what we're talking about here, the, um, the accounting [00:07:00] industry has entry rates of men and women that are approximately equal 5050, which is about our makeup, um, you know, in the population society.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So the entry into accounting does represent our, our basic societal, uh, equal, equal genders. But advancement in our industry is completely unequal.
Questian Telka: Very much.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Women only hold about [00:07:30] 19% of partner positions in CPA firms nationwide. I mean, think about that 5050 going in 19% making partner that a lot of.
Questian Telka: Work to do.
Nancy McClelland: We've got a lot of.
Questian Telka: Work.
Nancy McClelland: To do. And so question and I when we were when we have talked about this in the past She she is feels very strongly that a big part of that is that mentorship, intentional or [00:08:00] informal, is a missing piece of this puzzle. Not having enough female leaders in mentorship positions to mentor other leaders?
Questian Telka: Yes. That along with that, we need buy in from the men in the industry to recognize to look at that data and say, okay, we see that number. We do need to be very intentional with hiring or with promotion and making sure that we are promoting women into those [00:08:30] roles, because I'm pretty sure that they all recognize along with us, or at least I hope they do that, that that doesn't mean that the other. What's that? The other 30% of women aren't that aren't in leadership roles are incapable of leading. We know that's not the case. We just need they need opportunity, Opportunity? Absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And and if you know, any of our listeners are also listening to, um, Blake and David's accounting podcast, you know that there are some [00:09:00] major accounting firms that have just, uh, completely scuttled their Dei programs, um, and are going the opposite direction. And there are others that are doubling down on it. So, yes, um, you know, think about what the future of leadership in those companies is going to look like. Um, I want to bring up another really important, um, topic here. Like why, why, why is mentorship important and why specifically for women.
Questian Telka: Having [00:09:30] a mentor for the same reason that I mentioned in this story with my, you know, with our our colleague, it helps you see things that you don't see in yourself, which really boosts confidence. And it's increasing increases and Creates better mental health. When you have mentors that are they can be leaders, they can be peers, they can be come in any number of ways. But, um.
Nancy McClelland: It [00:10:00] really inspires you to do better work when you have more confidence. And this is, um, I'm going to give a small plug here for Bridging the Gap, which is my all time favorite accounting conference, um, which is run by by Randy Crabtree from the unique CPA podcast. And and his company Try Merit. And it's all about how to run a sustainable accounting firm, not just for firm owners, but like how as an employee or a contractor in a larger firm, you know, how can [00:10:30] you make that company culture be healthier and have an emphasis on, um, all sorts of all sorts of areas? It's not just about mentorship, but, uh, but one of the things that I did last year was I presented a panel. It was really one of the best experiences of my life. I presented a panel called vulnerability as a strength where I interviewed three just like major superstars in accounting, and we talked a lot about [00:11:00] the importance of mental health in the work that we do, not just in recognizing. I mean, we are we're all happier and healthier when we look at each other and we go, oh, look, that's a that's another human being over there, right? We're not just cogs in the wheel. That's always.
Questian Telka: Robots.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, but it's not just about that. It's that when you don't feel isolated and when you do feel confident, and when you have a sense of what your roadmap might look like, when you have a sense of what your options are out there, you're just going to be [00:11:30] a better contributor to your company, to society. If you're running your own firm, you know, to your team members or if you're in management, you know. So being a mentor and receiving mentorship is definitely a mental health is one of those huge benefits. And, um, I'm going to take that a step further and say that another really important benefit in terms of mentorship is realizing your potential.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Right. [00:12:00]
Questian Telka: I agree, because it's not just about it's not just about feeling that you have the potential yourself. It's actually seeing somebody familiar to you or that looks like you or that is similar to you in a role, in a leadership role, and recognizing that you also you can get there too.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. And how can you if you don't even know what the options are? I [00:12:30] mean, like there's no there's no rule book. We didn't get like a guide when I popped out of my mother's womb. Like, here's how to become an adult and here's how to, you know, build a career in accounting. And here's how to be a good boss, and here's how to be a firm runner. Like, we don't even know what those standards are. And so we are all making this up as we go along no matter what role we're in. So [00:13:00] how do you know what roles you could play in society, in your career, you know, or how to get paid for doing what you love instead of what everyone else is doing? Like, I definitely that's something that we talk about in, um, with Misty Mejia in Theater of Public Speaking, where it's just like, well, I don't know how I would love to be an educator, and I would love to, you know, get out there and have relationships with vendors to be [00:13:30] sponsored to do education or this podcast, for example. Think about this podcast would not happen if it weren't for our sponsors. Well, I didn't know how to approach people to ask how, you know, hey, I love what I'm doing in accounting, and I want to extend this to other people. There's no rule book. You have to have somebody you can go to and say, how does this work? How do other people.
Questian Telka: Well, thankfully, you're very good at that. You are very good at it. So.
Nancy McClelland: Well, we I'm very lucky because [00:14:00] I'm, I'm very, very much into personal relationships. And we had I had great, great personal relationships with Jane Ingram over at forwardly and Chelsea at Ignition and Madison and Josh and Ben and all the amazing people over at keeper. Um, and they were immediately supportive of what it was that we, that we were trying to do, but I would not have even thought to approach them to ask if it hadn't been for having Misty as a mentor, because she told me what [00:14:30] was possible. Yes. When I was younger and I was trying to figure out what the heck I was going to do with this accounting thing. Um, a mentor that I had, uh, who was a CPA, could only tell me about becoming a CPA. He couldn't see that there were other options. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I, I didn't I, I briefly looked into like, well what about managerial accounting. And I might have had.
Questian Telka: A very.
Nancy McClelland: Different path. [00:15:00]
Questian Telka: Can I ask you how did you discover what the other options were?
Nancy McClelland: Oh, gosh. Um, probably the internet. I still have a lot. I'm not kidding. Like, I knew.
Questian Telka: The internet mentor.
Nancy McClelland: The internet mentor. I knew that I knew that what he was suggesting that I do couldn't be the only option. But I didn't know what the other ones were. And I think it's even harder when it's [00:15:30] even harder when we can't see that there must be other options. And that goes back to what you were saying about when you see people who look like you in leadership or when you see people who look like you doing jobs, um, that you were like, I could do that. Like, I saw people speaking on the stage at accounting conferences, and I went, me too. That's that's a thing I'd like to do.
Questian Telka: I want to do that. Yeah, I.
Nancy McClelland: Want to [00:16:00] do that. How do I make that happen? You know, if I hadn't seen women on the stage speaking at Natpe, um, tax and IRS tax forums, which were among my, my earliest conferences, Claudia Hill in particular, she has no idea what a difference she's made in my life. Um, but she, she would just get up there and she would tell all these stories about clients. And I thought, I, I want to do what she's doing. Um, so, yeah, being able to see that there are other options.
Questian Telka: I have a similar story. [00:16:30] And I told her this recently too, when the I this was early, not too long after I met you. And I wonder This might have been the first time we met in person. I think it was the bookkeeping Bud's retreat, and we were sitting. It was in Chicago, and we're sitting in this room in this very perfectly poised, very articulate woman comes up to the front of the room to present. And [00:17:00] it was Carla Caldwell, and she, of course, took us. I know she's amazing. I know she took us through this entire like, um, it wasn't just a presentation. It was like a a workbook. We had to do, like a workbook on marketing and some things like that. And I was like, I want to do that. I want to be able to stand in front of a room like that and not panic. Which brings me to I'll have to I'll have to [00:17:30] at some point I'll get to it, or my story about you pushing me to take theater of public speaking. So.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, yes, for sure, for sure.
Questian Telka: But first I want to. Yeah. I want to ask you, what do you think? You know, there's different there are different types of mentorship. Right. So what do you think the best type of mentorship is or is there a best or what's worked? What has worked best for you?
Nancy McClelland: Well, okay. [00:18:00] So for a moment I want to take it back to the, to the, um, the options in terms of like CPA or management accountant and EA and all of those things. Um, because this ties in very much with what you're talking about. There are the mentors who can tell us about what our options are in terms of credentials. And, um, that's something that I try to talk with, um, the people in my CPA [00:18:30] group, um, and, um, people in bookkeeping buds or people who come to me for one on one mentorship. Other people often will come to me and they'll say, hey, I really would love to get started in bookkeeping, which credential is best? And I'm like, I don't know, because I haven't taken them, right. And so so that's one of the areas when you talk about what's the best kind. I, I think that that really depends what it is [00:19:00] that you're looking for. And, um, finding somebody who can say, I don't know all the answers, but for example, here's this, uh, here's this Google sheet that Hector Garcia put together in 2022 about all of the different certifications that are out there. I don't know which one's best, but whichever one you end up taking, will you please get back to me with more information? Because people ask me this question all the time, right? So so there's a good example of like, you know, talking [00:19:30] about what your what's the best way to get started as far as credentials are concerned and certifications are concerned. What's the best next step to take? So there's this one woman who I absolutely adore, Hope Brown. She's in ask a CPA and Hope. Yeah, I love hope you're gonna you're gonna see her. You're gonna see I.
Questian Telka: Met.
Nancy McClelland: Her I met no, no, I mean, our audience is gonna see her on stages. This woman is.
Questian Telka: Gonna go.
Nancy McClelland: Far. She's doing such great work. Um, and she's [00:20:00] she's a she's called the tax minded bookkeeper and she's tax pro, but she I she's not credentialed. And so I went up to her at Bridging the Gap last year. And I was like, hey, talk to me about this. How come? Because I know she knows her stuff. She's like, I was back when I was doing taxes before becoming a CPA. And she was like, you know, I've got I've got a family and I've got a business to run, and I've got all of these volunteer things that I'm committed to. I haven't had the time. And so I was able to say, hey, CPA is not your only option. Consider [00:20:30] the E program. And, um, gave her some, uh, Study suggestions and, um, you know, talked about which, which organizations you could be a member of, where you might get a scholarship and things like that. Right. Um, and so that's, that's like from the beginning of your career to the middle of your career to the end of your career. There are there are so many places where in our career path where we need mentorship, but there are also different types of topics. So I don't know that I [00:21:00] could say the best kind of mentor. Um, I think what's important is that you're looking at your goals, and this is something that I needed a mentor to tell me. You should look at your goals. Right. Um, and that was Gaynor Mielke. Gaynor said to me, and this wasn't that long ago. She was just like, how do you how are you going to get to where you want to be if you don't know what that is? Oh, right.
Questian Telka: Of course. I mean.
Nancy McClelland: I would [00:21:30] say.
Questian Telka: To start with the end in mind.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, absolutely. And so I would say to that, you know, to answer your question, write down a list of what your goals are, um, where you might want to be and start running them past people. And in that process, you're going to start identifying what kinds of mentorship you need, whether it's um, um.
Questian Telka: Formal or informal, for example. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely.
Questian Telka: My experience has been that I [00:22:00] have never actually had a formal mentorship program. So there are a lot of firms or a lot of organizations that will offer a formal mentorship program. I might have I don't know why I can't say the word formal, but it doesn't seem like it's coming out right. I have always had the best experiences, though, with informal mentorship, and it really comes down to finding someone that, as you were saying, fits in with your goals and has the, [00:22:30] um, you know, maybe has some of the same values that you have and and such. So that can help you kind of determine who to approach.
Nancy McClelland: And as a matter of fact, you can start one step before that. You can be like, I don't know what my goals are because I don't know what's out there to be done. Like I don't know what my options are. I don't know what my potential is. Like we were talking about earlier.
Questian Telka: So yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Go go to somebody who is on LinkedIn who's doing something that you think looks interesting and reach out to them and be like, hey, [00:23:00] can you help me? Can you help me create a set of goals? Because I don't know what the options are or, or go to somebody who's who's a coach because there's a, a Venn diagram of mentors and coaches and there's some overlap there. Right? It's not the same thing. We'll talk a little bit more about that later. But you can find somebody who actually is really good at just that thing. You can go hire Gaynor and say, help me define what my goals are.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Right. Yes. And then once you know that, you [00:23:30] can be like, well, do I need, do I need technical assistance? Do I need confidence building? Do I need a roadmap to figure out how to make partner, for example? Or do I want, um, input into what kind of program I should go through or education that I should go through. So it's really hard to do that if you don't know what your options are. So I, I would recommend that people start general, define [00:24:00] those goals and then get more specific. And remember that you can do that again over and over and over for the rest of your life. I am going to be turning 53 years old in a couple of days, and I am still in need of mentorship. We need to both have and be mentors at every stage of our lives. Yes, I mean, my therapist has a therapist, right? Like, right. She's gonna she's she's taking it from me and then she's gotta have somebody that she [00:24:30] goes to. There's a good analogy.
Questian Telka: I think it's also important. You know, we need to the first step towards accomplishing those goals is believing that you can. Right. And part of believing that you can is seeing other people accomplishing it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Visibility and representation. Yeah. That's the first step. How do you believe in yourself doing something if you've [00:25:00] never seen anybody in that role doing it before?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Seeing women in seeing other women in leadership normalizes that ambition for younger women. I certainly know that it did for myself, and I'm sure that it did for you as well.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, absolutely. What was your first experience? Let's let's dig into that a little bit. What was your first experience seeing a woman truly lead in this in this profession? What what was that experience and what did it do for you?
Questian Telka: Oh my goodness. [00:25:30] I have to think back to. I think honestly, it was the I was in my 20s and I worked at a big four, and the chairman of the board was a woman. And I felt like, yeah. And I felt like she was a powerhouse and she happened to be located she was located in the office that I worked out of, and so I would see her. So this was a big office [00:26:00] in downtown Los Angeles. And so I would often see her. And I remember just, um, you know, being like, wow, she is she's the chair of the board. This is, you know, unbelievable. And just being. Why why.
Nancy McClelland: Did.
Questian Telka: That could I.
Nancy McClelland: Unbelievable. Why did that feel unbelievable to you like. Because of.
Questian Telka: What? So unusual. It was so unusual. Like most of the most of [00:26:30] the roles that I have seen, most of those roles that I had seen, especially at that time, it was men in those roles. And it was just known that it was very difficult for a woman to get in, get to that place. And I would even say that it's still very difficult often for a woman to get in that place, especially with family. It can be really, really challenging still. So that was my not. [00:27:00]
Nancy McClelland: That men don't have families, but I mean, I think most of us would agree that societally we we sort of expect a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. We expect that to land on the, the shoulders of women because of of biology. Right.
Questian Telka: Yeah. I'll share a story quickly that, um, I was having a conversation because of she counts and I love that women feel comfortable sharing their stories, knowing [00:27:30] that we're doing this. And she was telling me that she worked for a firm for a very long time, was promised partner when she went in, was not giving that partner position in the end, and it was given to a man. And one of the things that they told her before she ultimately left was after she had her first child, that she wouldn't want to be in a leadership role now anyway because she was a mom.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, that's so illegal, by the way. That [00:28:00] is so illegal. And on the other hand, but I will. I'm going to add to that though, like I feel that pain because I've had, um, you know, I've had employees leave on maternity leave and, and we believe strongly, um, one of our company values. Right. Like we believe strongly that we should be supporting each other, not just like I mean each other as a team. We don't call each other staff or employees. We talk about [00:28:30] each other as team members. And so it was very important to me to make sure that she had, um, paid maternity leave, um, to some extent. And, um, so we really dug deep to be able to afford that. And then, of course, you know, I was really nervous. Well, is she going to be able to come back at the same hours she was and she wasn't. She was sure she would be able to. But man, you know, motherhood can really knock you on your hiney. [00:29:00] Um, and, and so and then she had a second child and I was like, okay, we're doing this again, you know, and and it was really hard because then she came back the second time, um, she actually was like, I don't know if I could do this. Now we've all worked it out. And she's I mean, she's been with me forever and I absolutely adore her. But it's hard.
Questian Telka: It is hard, but it's hard because she. I know who you're talking about. And she's an incredible team member and employee. Absolutely. You want to keep that [00:29:30] talent, you know, and you want. People have lives and men have lives too. And so it's like having that balance. And you did what you needed to to support her because, um, you know, because she has value.
Nancy McClelland: But it was too it was too way right, like I was I was trying to support her, but she also was loyal to me and acknowledged my struggle and my needs and and how her absence has affected that. You know, we can't always meet during office hours. We might have to meet like in the [00:30:00] evening after her, you know, partner gets home from work or whatever. But we we just decided and this is bringing it back to this mentorship thing here. Like we just decided that was important and made a point of it. And she rewarded us with her loyalty and commitment. And, um, and so other people are going to be able to see, and she has friends who will reach out to her and be like, oh, look what you're doing. You're raising children [00:30:30] and working as a bookkeeper remotely for somebody who believes in you. And as a matter of fact, Kim Kelleher is starting, um, a like a job board for women who are exactly in that situation. Yeah, I love that. You know what? We're going to put a link to that in the show notes.
Questian Telka: Um, okay.
Nancy McClelland: It's very it's brand new and it's in beta right now. But I will reach out to her and see how much we are are able to share about that, because I think that's.
Questian Telka: Going to.
Nancy McClelland: Be a really amazing resource [00:31:00] specifically for women in this situation.
Questian Telka: So, yeah, I mean, because think about how much talent there is. And there there are women at some firms that have to I mean, I left I left my, you know, I left the firm that I worked at when I had my son. And there are some women that it wasn't because of them I wanted to. But there are some women who want, you know, it's like you want to work, you still want to work, but maybe you don't have the same amount of time. And so having that, being able to go to some go and work for someone who says, like, I'm okay with [00:31:30] that, I can be flexible. I don't mind if you need to work on the evening or in the evenings or on the weekend, or we'll do whatever we need to do because, you know, that is just part of who we are. Yeah. I mean, we're we're, you know, a huge number of people have families and kids and, you know, we need.
Nancy McClelland: The.
Questian Telka: Space for it. So I want to ask you.
Nancy McClelland: A different experience.
Questian Telka: That's what I was going to say is what was your first experience? Yeah. Seeing a woman.
Nancy McClelland: We we do not have children. And, um, so this [00:32:00] this has. I am an extremely dedicated aunt, um, of many, many, many, many, many, many, many children. Um, but, uh, and I'm a member of, of the village, but do not have children of my own. So I had a very different experience. I, um, I was working I talked about this a little bit in the first episode, I was working as an accountant and bookkeeper and business manager at a world famous violin making studio. [00:32:30] And the their tax preparer, their CPA was Theresa Briggs, who ran her own firm. And, uh, so I saw very early on the potential but didn't think that that was me, that was somebody else who did a different job and had nothing to do with me. Right. I just really enjoyed working with her. But it never occurred to me that, like, I could or would want to [00:33:00] do what she does running a tax firm. And, um, she to go back to the quote from earlier, she saw in me what I did not see in myself. And, um, encouraged me to become a tax pro. And she when I had my going away party, when I when I finally left that amazing, wonderful job, um, she gave me my first CCH master tax guide, which I still have. And [00:33:30] she wrote inside it, you know, a very inspirational comment. Um, because she was like, you need to do this. You are. I love that.
Questian Telka: You still have it.
Nancy McClelland: I still.
Questian Telka: Love that. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh. No. That was. Look, my hair is standing on end right now. Yeah. Just. Yeah, just thinking about that.
Questian Telka: That was a pivotal moment.
Nancy McClelland: It was. And I don't know that I would have gone into this industry had it not been for her. But, you know, as you know, for me, learning tax was a [00:34:00] huge part of what made me a really excellent bookkeeper. I believe very strongly. It's one of the reasons I started Asca, CPA is that knowing about taxes, whether you're doing them or not, makes you so much better. Bookkeeper and completely.
Questian Telka: Agree. Yeah, I completely agree.
Nancy McClelland: She connected those dots for me. She really did. So I got very lucky that I saw that early on in my journey. Um, and you know, a quote that [00:34:30] I absolutely love, which is by Marian Wright Edelman. You can't be what you can't see.
Questian Telka: So true.
Nancy McClelland: And she was that for me.
Questian Telka: You have to be able to imagine it. You know, you have to have the have to be able to aspire to it. And I think that's an amazing quote. I really like it.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. That quote is so important to me. Um, and actually it brings us into the next topic, which is the psychology of mentorship. Right. Um, question. And I have [00:35:00] had really different experiences with upbringing. Um, in some ways we are just the completely opposite human beings. And yet in other ways, you know, it's amazing how growing up so differently from each other can actually, um, you end up with so much in common later on. Uh, there's a lot of overlap, even though, yeah, we're opposites in the same at the same time. It's like we're sisters. But yeah. So socialization, we've talked a lot about the fact that when you were growing up, you, [00:35:30] your parents really stressed humility and, um, in being brought up in that way, it impacted your confidence. And I would love for you to talk about how mentorship helped you. You know, what it was like and then how mentorship helped you, um, push through some of that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I think that they were trying to it was best intentions. Right. They tried to balance, you know, wanting me to be confident with [00:36:00] being humble. And so I was often, you know, there were a lot of comments to try and help me, you know, be be humble and not boast too much, you know, and sometimes I'm wondering, I wonder not I know this wasn't their intention specifically, but I think when it comes to young girls, we measure that differently in unintentionally. We measure whether, you know, oh, don't brag, [00:36:30] don't boast. Like that's kind of the things that we're told or the things that you hear or I heard a lot of and not necessarily from my parents, but from other in other ways as well, at school and that sort of thing. So I think they were really trying to teach me to be a very humble person, and I feel that I am, but in some ways that also impacted my confidence and has been something that I have struggled with. I still [00:37:00] struggle with my entire life. And having I mean, you're basically every single day, every single time we have a conversation. Even before we started recording this, I made a comment and I'm always making, like, self-deprecating jokes. And you said to me, you're like, stop.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. So you.
Questian Telka: Have to put the positivity out there. And so.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely.
Questian Telka: Having a mentor, you know, I've considered you a mentor ever since we've met. [00:37:30] And having you and having other mentors say to me, giving reassurance about what you're doing, complimenting your or affirming your choices, your goals, your what's the word accomplishments. That's what I was looking for.
Nancy McClelland: Um, you know, and I want to I want to make sure that people know we're we're not just saying mentorship is you got this girl. You're doing a great job. No, [00:38:00] you it's it's the combination of affirming what you're doing, mirroring.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Behaviors and, um, and also making sure that the person knows that you're not just blowing sunshine up their rear end. Right? Like, well.
Questian Telka: That's why.
Nancy McClelland: It's going to be honest with them.
Questian Telka: It's important to find, yes, a mentor who will not do exactly just that. They will tell you [00:38:30] and be open and direct with you. So you have to find someone that you have that relationship with. And you brought up mirroring and I wanted to I'm like.
Nancy McClelland: I'm just laughing because I, I question and I joke a lot about the fact sometimes she'll be like, oh my gosh, do you think it's terrible? And I'm like, girl, I will tell you when it is terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anybody who knows me knows I will say it out loud. Yes.
Questian Telka: You're gonna know what.
Nancy McClelland: It means, though, that, you know, you can believe [00:39:00] me when I say the positive. Yes. Right. So I'm sorry. Please go on with what you were saying. You were gonna.
Questian Telka: Yeah. You brought up mirroring, and I was going to ask you because there's a neuroscience related to mirroring and affirmation. And I was going to ask you to talk about a talk about mirroring.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Well, there's so.
Nancy McClelland: Um, if you're interested in this, anybody who's listening, I really, really, really encourage you to Google Mirror neurons [00:39:30] because mirror neurons, they're a real thing. Um, and this is actually what makes it possible for us to learn something without doing it ourselves. So if we, uh. This is something I learned from theater of public speaking. Um, I think I had come across it before because it's a topic that that my husband's very interested in mapping the brain. Um, but when when we are looking at somebody teaching something on a stage, for example, or in a webinar or whatever, and they [00:40:00] pull somebody from the audience up to help illustrate something, the audience, this is really mind blowing. The audience can actually learn that thing as if they were doing it themselves.
Questian Telka: That's amazing.
Nancy McClelland: Isn't that incredible?
Questian Telka: And that's incredible.
Nancy McClelland: That's mirror neurons at work. That's. And that's just one example of how they work. But, um, you know, when we're talking about mentorship, that's extremely, extremely valuable because we can watch this [00:40:30] behavior in others as an example. And, and we can imitate that example.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Emulate it.
Nancy McClelland: Emulate it. Exactly. Um, and then you talked about affirmation.
Questian Telka: Yes. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So you know, and how that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, when you receive affirmation from someone from a mentor, we actually have a dopamine reaction. And that will reinforce the behavior that created the affirmation [00:41:00] in the first place. So hearing that you did something, getting a positive affirmation from it makes you much more inclined to continue to repeat it because you know you're getting a dopamine increase.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, exactly. I mean, when we receive positive social feedback, especially, I want to add this from someone we trust or admire. That has been very, very important to me. It it actually reshapes our self-image.
Questian Telka: Absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: One of our upcoming [00:41:30] podcast, um, topics is called um. I engage in too much negative self-talk like a stupid idiot, and I love that. And this is. Thank you. Um, yeah. No, that that is related to this, right? And so when we're getting affirmation about the things that we've done well, we're likely to we're likely to repeat that behavior. And, um, you know, this is this is where I know you [00:42:00] want to talk a little bit about my, our experience as, um, mentor mentee relationship.
Questian Telka: Well, and I would say that that is a very good lead in to our our show title, which is she believed in me before I did. And that very much is how I feel about the start of our relationship. I mean, I a story that comes to mind specifically is [00:42:30] and I've told this story before, but when I first started, before I started speaking, I couldn't hardly get on a zoom call. So we would have like bookkeeping buds meetings, and I couldn't even speak up on a zoom call. I was, or even.
Nancy McClelland: Team meetings when you were working for me as a contractor, and we would have a team meeting in zoom. She was she was so quiet and meek and I was like, I know that's not who she is inside because it comes out once she [00:43:00] gets comfortable enough in a one on one. So like, you have so much, you have so much to share with the world. You have so much like your your your capabilities and your experiences. And I'm like, why can't I get that to come?
Questian Telka: And so you you told me to take Misty's Theater of Public speaking course, and I did. And when I went into that course, I said to them, you know, and I see Misty as a mentor as well, and Krista and and to that point, [00:43:30] I would say mentors come in all different ages to Krista is younger than me, and she is an incredible speaker. Um, and I see both of them as mentors. And so but that the point I was going to make about that was that, you know, I went into this theater of public speaking program thinking and feeling like I couldn't speak up in a webinar to coming out of it after. And also, [00:44:00] one of the things that I told them before I went into it was I, I go to conferences and I want to talk to people, but I am so too shy to, like, walk up and just engage and start having a conversation with anyone. And that was one of my big goals before I went to the first Intuit Connect, or it was QuickBooks connect at the time before I went to that was to be able to go up and just have a conversation with someone. And I accomplished [00:44:30] both of those things. And by the time the program was over and we were like six months past it, I would say I was delivering my first webinar for Bill. And so it was, you know, that you telling me, hey, this exists, pushing me to do it, and then going through that program and continuing to have those relationships and and.
Nancy McClelland: Continuing to hold you accountable to this day because, you know, you'll you'll, um, say like, I think this just happened [00:45:00] yesterday. Yes. I'm going to submit this, um, topic to Intuit Connect for the conference, but I'm sure they won't take it. And I was like, ah, hello. What are we doing? Is that your lizard brain trying to protect you?
Questian Telka: That.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, you did that. Is that your lizard brain trying to protect you from rejection? Yes. And and yes. So. And that's a normal thing. We all have a hippocampus, right? That is what it is for. It is to [00:45:30] go. Watch out, watch out. Danger, danger. Um, and so this accountability of mentors can, you know, we're colleagues and yet I still have to catch you on things and you have to catch me on things. And so the mentorship goes in, in both directions. I feel like we've made the case for mentorship very strongly.
Questian Telka: I want just, like, beat it over the head.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I want to shift to talking about practicalities like, how do people make [00:46:00] this happen? Right? The who, what, where, when. And we've covered the why. We've covered the why. So who, what, where and when. Um, we talked a little bit beforehand, and, you know, you just talked about age. It doesn't. It's not like older and younger. That doesn't matter. It's not necessarily whether they're in a position of leadership or what their title is. The most important thing is that you look for alignment in values and a communication style [00:46:30] that you respond to. Um, and it doesn't just have to be women. Some of my greatest mentors, um, were men. There was one person in particular.
Questian Telka: I agree with you.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. The same for you. Yeah. I when I was at the violin making studio, Joseph Curtin was was my boss. He was the famous MacArthur genius violin maker who's so amazing. Um, and he was married to an extremely [00:47:00] strong, inspiring woman, Jessie Richards. They were both very important in my and my development during that time in my life, my mid 20s. He actually talk about seeing in each other what we don't see in ourselves. He wanted me to participate in addition to doing business management and bookkeeping and accounting and all of that. He wanted me to participate in selling the violins. Now, these were very expensive violins. This this would be for, like, somebody who, um, you know, can't afford [00:47:30] an antique. That would be hundreds of thousands of dollars. Oh, but you can get one for, you know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000. Like, these were very. And so selling those, I was just like, no, I'm not in sales. I can't do sales. I don't want to do sales. And he bought me a book, which is somewhat outdated at this point, I will warn you.
Questian Telka: But, um.
Nancy McClelland: I still have the copy that he gave me. It's called selling is a Woman's Game. And that book talked about how [00:48:00] the kind of sales that I think of used car salesman trying to sell you, potentially something.
Questian Telka: You.
Nancy McClelland: Need or isn't the right fit for you, is very different than us building relationships and trust and trying to listen to what the customer or client needs, and then find something that will fill that need and explain to them how [00:48:30] it fills that need. Right. It's not what we think of as selling.
Questian Telka: Selling.
Nancy McClelland: It's just matching the person's needs with something you have and they give you money for it. Um, and he pointed out.
Questian Telka: Such a good way to think of it.
Nancy McClelland: Isn't that.
Questian Telka: He.
Nancy McClelland: Pointed out you're already selling because you're representing our brand. You're welcoming people. You know, the orchestra's when they came through Ann Arbor through university. Musical society would come to our, uh, violinmaking making studio for a [00:49:00] reception after the concerts. Um, and I would talk with them and develop relationships with them, and we'd find things in common and we'd keep in touch. So. So there was a really good example of a man actually pointing out something that was a strength that I, as a woman, more naturally had that.
Questian Telka: I love.
Nancy McClelland: That could help.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I love that.
Nancy McClelland: Um, and then another example was when I accidentally started my own firm because I had my, my first consulting client, [00:49:30] um, and the woman who became one of my greatest mentors in life, Claire Karczmar. She found herself suddenly and somewhat unexpectedly, in the chief operations officer role. That was not her background. Um, she needed. And then I was I was an outsourced CFO. And so I reported to her in that role because I was I was outsourced, I wasn't we weren't like in different corner offices. So I basically was [00:50:00] like a consultant to her so that she could head the whole team. She needed my technical mentorship because that wasn't her background, but I needed her business acumen. She was the one who taught me, come to me with solutions, not problems.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: So that was one of the biggest ones. I would come to her and I'd be like, I'm shocked. I would always say, I'm shocked that this horrible thing is happening, that, you know, you guys aren't handling your accounts receivables correctly.
Questian Telka: What are you going to [00:50:30] do about it?
Nancy McClelland: Yes. What are you going to do about it? As a matter of fact, she gave me, you know, those little badges that say hello? I'm on them. She gave me one of those badges that says hello. I'm. And she wrote shocked on it.
Questian Telka: You know, next time I see you at a conference, that's what you're going to have.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I'm never shocked anymore though, because for one thing, I've been doing this for, you know, 25, 30 years. But for the other thing I learned from her. No, I'm not shocked. I am dismayed, you know. Or I'm disappointed [00:51:00] or I'm frustrated. But how are we going to fix this problem? Let's focus on that.
Questian Telka: I will also say that speaking of those badges and conferences, we should talk about where where do you find mentors? Right. So for me, bookkeeping buds was huge. But conferences as well and just online um, or where you're already working oftentimes and it's important to just ask them [00:51:30] what's the worst they can say. No.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: You have to say no. Sorry. You have to ask. Yeah. I mean, you told.
Nancy McClelland: Me.
Questian Telka: Multiple times and I just kept going.
Nancy McClelland: I was just about to say.
Nancy McClelland: Even if they say no, be persistent, because that's how I ended up becoming Questians mentor way back when.
Nancy McClelland: Um, yeah. Conferences are great. Linkedin, Facebook groups, mastermind communities. My mastermind community is absolutely incredible. I met them through realize which is an online community as well. There's Roundtable Labs is [00:52:00] an amazing place. Obviously. My ask a CPA community is a really great place. There are there are so many incredible places out there where you can find mentors. But you have to ask, like you, you, you need to reach out and say this. This could be helpful. I know Don Brolin was in a situation where people were asking her and she was saying no because she was like, I don't have anything I can offer them. And I was like, Don, are you high? Like, do you really? [00:52:30] Have you looked at yourself like your I don't have anything.
Questian Telka: Oh, well.
Nancy McClelland: That's a good.
Questian Telka: Imposter syndrome. Uh, yeah. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Right. Yeah. We all have imposter syndrome.
Nancy McClelland: Sometimes it's your mistakes and your failures and your experiences that make you a more valuable mentor. Definitely. But to that point of asking, it is hard to admit that you need help. It can be. And it was very hard for me. I'm going to give you an example to go back to [00:53:00] bookkeeping buds. So here I am. I'm a CPA who runs um, we do we do the full arc. We've got bookkeeping, accounting, tax and advisory services. Right. Um, and I consider myself a very good bookkeeper. Uh, but but for me, I feel like I'm a really good bookkeeper because I understand how books and texts are related to each other, and I understand how trend analysis can help. You know, the advisory part of it can help businesses do better. I'm not gifted at QuickBooks. I [00:53:30] mean, maybe I am now that I use right tool because it's so much easier. But the shift from QuickBooks desktop to QuickBooks online was very hard for me, and I was very resentful and frustrated, and I would have I would be embarrassed to say in bookkeeping buds in meetings or in our slack. Um, I was embarrassed to say, I don't know how to do this thing because I felt like, well, I'm.
Nancy McClelland: A CPA, I should know all of these things. And I run my own firm and I'm I was embarrassed, but I [00:54:00] just needed to take a deep breath. I get that.
Questian Telka: Way sometimes, too.
Nancy McClelland: I do the.
Questian Telka: Same. Yes. Of course. I mean, yeah, it's like, oh, okay, I'm speaking on a topic, you know, we're teaching. We're speaking it. Sometimes it feels like you're supposed to know all the answers and you're supposed to know everything, and then you like, you have to ask someone how to do something that you feel like you should know. And it's like, oh.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the reasons Melissa miller Ferguson is my business bestie, is that I [00:54:30] feel so comfortable being able to go to her and say, I have no clue what I'm doing, and she'll be like, here's a loom. And she just shows me. And I'm like, oh, oh, thank you. It's just incredible. So swallowing your your pride or your or pushing through that fear is a natural thing to have to do when you are looking for mentorship.
Questian Telka: Yeah I agree. Absolutely. And um, you [00:55:00] know, then then there's also thinking about that our needs are always changing, right. So having mentors in different, different phases of your life, different parts of your career for different reasons, like you, you and Melissa have that relationship because if you need something in QuickBooks and yeah, I think I reached out to you because I usually only work with nonprofits. And I had a client recently that wasn't a nonprofit that it was [00:55:30] doing a huge cleanup on. And I saw something that was a really weird. And I said to you.
Nancy McClelland: Um.
Questian Telka: Is there any reason why somebody would do this? Because it was an S Corp and or, I mean, I think it was a partnership. And you said to me, no, your instincts are correct.
Nancy McClelland: That's what we do with our mastermind a lot. Ask our Ask your mind if through realize is is all women who are all in tax and we feel very comfortable reaching out to each other and being like, you [00:56:00] know, can I can I just get a.
Questian Telka: I should know this, but I don't, but I.
Nancy McClelland: Don't, or maybe I'm having a brain fart or, or reality check, like, I do know this, and I just want to make sure that it is what that what I'm saying is true. So being clear about what you want guidance on, you know, sometimes you need help with technical things. Um, sometimes you need someone to bounce ideas off of. That is the thing that is a role that a mentor can play. And sometimes you just need someone to believe. [00:56:30]
Questian Telka: To vent to.
Nancy McClelland: In you. Yes, venting. Venting is part of it. Sometimes you need someone.
Questian Telka: Who knows your pain.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, and sometimes you need somebody to to believe in you. Um, absolutely. Uh, I would love to briefly touch upon some of the gender dynamics in mentorship. In mentorship. I know we've talked a little bit about that. Um, female mentors. Mentors can offer unique validation, [00:57:00] but male mentors matter too. Like what I was saying before with selling as a woman's game or when I my very first consulting gig, um, that I was talking about with with the CEO becoming a mentor to me, um, there external CPA there, tax pro he was the one who actually advocated for me regarding pricing in that first consulting role. He was like, don't do this for a penny less than X dollars per hour. Um, and it was so [00:57:30] I was like, I'm gonna make X dollars per hour, which to me it felt so huge. And he was like, look, look at what you're providing to them, and look at what a deal you are compared to if they had to go out and hire a CFO, right. So men can make a big difference. On the other hand.
Questian Telka: Want.
Nancy McClelland: To oh go ahead.
Questian Telka: Yeah. I was I thought I was going to say I also want to add that, and I'm wondering if this is where you were you were going to. I'm not sure, but I think it's important to point out [00:58:00] that there are pitfalls in mentorship as well and making sure, is this where you were going? Also.
Nancy McClelland: You go, go for it. You go.
Questian Telka: Okay, making sure that we this is why it's important to choose the right one and not feel bad if you have to abandon them because it's it's important as a mentor and a mentee, choosing a mentor, that you make sure you're not choosing someone who is more interested in making themselves look good than building you up. And I think [00:58:30] this happens more so when you're in a, um, when you have someone that's a mentor in a in a superior position to what you are in.
Nancy McClelland: And although it happens in all, it happens at all, of course.
Questian Telka: It happens at.
Nancy McClelland: All, especially especially when people are feeling insecure. They it can look like mentorship, but it's really patronizing and condescending and sometimes bullying.
Questian Telka: I think that they fail to recognize in that situation [00:59:00] that when you build somebody up, I mean, you shouldn't you should do it for altruistic reasons. Let's be honest. You should do it because it was done for you. The same. That's what I do. You know, it's been done for me, so I do it for other people. But if you are mentoring someone, it is if they are looking, if they look good, if you see somebody that works for you, does something that looks good. The fact that you've helped them get to that point makes you look good. Yes. It's not.
Nancy McClelland: And we've [00:59:30] both had we both had leaders. Yeah. We both had leaders take credit for our work. And so I really want to caution you about um, what that what that might look like. And I'm going to give you an example of a warning sign. Um, Um, if if, if there is something that has happened, uh, with somebody that you're, you're thinking might be a mentor to you or might be in that role and it would never happen to a man. And [01:00:00] this is whether the mentor character is a is a man or a woman. So if something happens that would never happen to a man, this is not your person. Okay. And so my example is, um, I was really struggling at, um, where I was working at a nonprofit. My, my first job in Chicago. I was accounting supervisor there, and, um, I was really struggling because I had not I had been given what felt like an impossible job, and it was overwhelming, and I really wasn't sure where to turn. And I was there really [01:00:30] late at night working and was just like, oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed.
Nancy McClelland: I'm so frustrated with this. And I got up to take a walk around the building, and I saw that the president was still in her office, and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go. I'm going to talk to her. She seems like a really amazing person. I'm going to, um, tell her how I'm struggling. And so I she was seemed it seemed like it started really well. I went in her office. She sat me down. Sure. What's on your mind? What's on your mind? And I told her what was [01:01:00] going on. And her solution for me was to make me herbal tea and tell me that I should probably take yoga. I am not kidding. Now, are those bad things to recommend to somebody? No. Are those the only solution you should give to someone who has just told you about a very real thing that is going on? Okay. That would not have happened. That would not have happened to a man. And I was like, okay, that didn't go well. She's not that person [01:01:30] for me. So when you see warning signs.
Questian Telka: Pay attention.
Nancy McClelland: Pay attention, pay attention.
Questian Telka: I want to we only have a little bit of time left, and I think it's really important to hit on why some women may feel hesitant to be a mentor to other women.
Nancy McClelland: Okay, go for it.
Questian Telka: And I certainly can say that from my perspective, it probably leans into the whole imposter syndrome thing is just feeling like, what [01:02:00] do I have to offer? Like, I, you know, like what Don said, what can I like? What do I have to bring?
Nancy McClelland: What do I have to. Yes. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah. And so it's, um. But I think we all have something to give. And it's important to look to your mentors and inside yourself to try and prevent yourself from having those negative thoughts. And I think that's a big. Yeah, it's a big part of why maybe some people aren't being [01:02:30] themselves.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. It's important not only that, like we were saying earlier, it's important to both have and be mentors. And I think watching your own mentors struggle can actually be really illustrative. You see them bumping up against that glass ceiling, you see them dealing with patronizing leadership or or condescension. You know where like a peer supportive. But it's really a pat on the head. Um, you know, look at how they react to those things that can impact our own experiences. And as we are struggling, [01:03:00] just because we're struggling doesn't mean we can't talk about those struggles with mentees.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: To go to the point.
Questian Telka: I think it's important to see that, you know, I see that with with kids too, right? So. Right.
Nancy McClelland: That's that's actually.
Questian Telka: True.
Nancy McClelland: That's actually true. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today. We are so excited about this project. And we hope this this first I guess our first intro was more of our first episode was more of an introduction to why we're doing this and who we are. This is the [01:03:30] first episode with with the meat in it. Um, and we want you to be part of this conversation. Right? Yes. Question.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So I would like to actually ask the listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join this conversation. So we will have a post set up specifically on the day that this launches for all of you to go to LinkedIn and answer a question for us. [01:04:00] We want to know how firms and businesses can build good mentorship cultures and what is worked for you. What experiences with mentorship that you have had that were helpful? And so just all of your thoughts and comments on mentoring in our, um, in the comments of our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page.
Nancy McClelland: And before we sign [01:04:30] off, I want to leave you with one of my very favorite quotes, which I really feel embodies the heart of this topic and what we're trying to do here on the podcast. It's by Marianne Williamson. When you let your light shine, you unconsciously give others permission to do the same.
Questian Telka: I love that. That's so true. Thanks for being here with us on she counts the real talk of counting podcasts [01:05:00] for women.
Nancy McClelland: And if something in today's episode hit home for you. Well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: We want you to feel seen. Heard and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, and any other resources will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please be sure to subscribe and we would love it if you would share this with another woman in accounting that you think needs to hear it.
Nancy McClelland: And we'll see you in two weeks. Thanks [01:05:30] for being with us. Bye bye.
Questian Telka: Thank you. Bye bye.
