There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts, Questian Telk
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, I promise [00:00:30] you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Questian Telka: Special thank you to our season two sponsors Forwardly Relay and Clienthub. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone else is thinking but no one is saying. You can learn more about them on our sponsor page at she Accounts.com.
Nancy McClelland: Remember, you can go to earmarked to earn CPE credit.
Questian Telka: And [00:01:00] please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called credit. Where do the hidden cost of borrowed ideas and borrowed is in quotes there. And we're going to talk about the many varieties because there are so many of plagiarism, having your ideas and materials scooped up and someone else getting credit for work that you've done.
Questian Telka: Really frustrating, right? Um, [00:01:30] and as you all know, we love watching each episode with a story. And Nancy, Nancy, I know you've got a few and the most recent just happened this week and, um, really kind of inspired us to do this. So you're coming in hot.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I am, I am coming in hot. Um, this is going to start out like a therapy session because partially, I just want some validation that it's okay to [00:02:00] be pissed about this. Um, but this was, this was a topic that was already on our list. I think it was number 27 on our list when we first started planning episodes. And what happened this week was an inspiration to be like, you know what? We are finally going to make that one happen because I'm mad. I'm really mad.
Questian Telka: And it's always better to talk about it when the details are fresh and you're passionate.
Nancy McClelland: That's true. That is absolutely true. Spoiler alert. I [00:02:30] am going to argue that the best solution to a lot of these issues is collective validation and ally action. I really do believe that. So you guys get to help me with the validation part of that right now. So here's what happened. Um, last year I was invited to co-host an episode of Qbui Power Hour, which is run by Dan DeLong, who I love. Great guy. Um, and Rich [00:03:00] Kane and I were co-hosting a session on 1099, which is one of my areas of expertise. I've been speaking on this topic for about four years now. Um, and I have a pretty distinctive looking slide deck that I use in every one of my presentations. And I tweak that slide deck based on changes in rules or who I'm presenting with or whatever. Um, so last year we did this session together. I said, hey, I already have a slide [00:03:30] deck pulled together. Why don't we use this? And you know, I can make some tweaks to it. So we did. So that was last year. Last January, it went great. Had a good a good turnout. Lots of people appreciated it, blah blah blah. This year I am sitting at my desk working and I get a WhatsApp from my friend Jennifer Diamond. Now, she and I actually presented at Scaling New Heights earlier [00:04:00] in 2025 and June of 2025. We did a presentation on 1099 and creating a year round workflow, which is something we're both really, really passionate about. She runs a site called 1099 problems I o that is really, really amazing. And I use that plus double for, um, doing our 1099 since we did this whole.
Questian Telka: Session as well.
Nancy McClelland: You use it too. Um, they're great people over there and this particular [00:04:30] feature is just so great. So, so we had this whole session on that. And so she knew my slide deck really well because we've co-presented in the past on this. Actually for earmark, we did a presentation, um, almost exactly a year ago. And then we did this presentation at Scaling New Heights. So she's really familiar with my slides that I mentioned. I've been using for like over at least three years now. Down three 1099 seasons. And so she sends me a screenshot and was like, hey, aren't these your slides? [00:05:00]
Questian Telka: And I have to ask you like in that. So you see that you see the slides in that moment. Like what? What did you think? And what were you feeling? Like, what was your gut immediate reaction?
Nancy McClelland: Okay, so you know me pretty well, so this won't surprise you. Um, I have low blood pressure, interestingly enough. But when I get upset about something, it just low blood pressure turns into [00:05:30] very high blood pressure, and it just comes up to my head and my face and it feels like it explodes out the top of my head. I'm not kidding. This is exactly what it feels like. It just explodes out the top of my head.
Questian Telka: Does it feel like you just like literally get hot in the moment?
Nancy McClelland: Yes, I get hot and my, my head gets kind of tingly and I get a little shaky and I'm just furious. I'm furious. I'm like, oh no, that did not happen. Right? [00:06:00] And so I was like, yes, those are my slides. And I said, do you feel comfortable saying something in chat? And she's like, yeah, I'm talking with, uh, Sharon Fuller, who was also in there. She's like, I'm talking with her. She recognizes that they're yours too. We're going to bring it up. And they and I don't, I think it was diamond who brought it up in chat. Maybe Sharon did as well, but and then later on, I found out from another friend that they saw the LinkedIn post [00:06:30] saying that this session was going to be happening, and they popped in and also saw that they were my slides. So I had a lot of not only.
Questian Telka: So not only were your slides used, but it was a presentation that you had done with these individuals before and then you were not invited. Yes. To that presentation again.
Nancy McClelland: And I don't know why yet. Like I still don't know why I didn't get invited. Maybe they just had too many people in the room because this year it was, um, it was sponsored by Avalara. And so they were one of the presenters [00:07:00] as well. And um, I found out from Dan later on that even they were using my slides and were making like adjustments and changes to my slides up until like five minutes before going live.
Questian Telka: Bravo to Sharon and Diamond, who I have no, I am not surprised who I know well and I'm not surprised, but I'm also, um, proud of for, you know, advocating and speaking up because I'll be honest, like I would have been, I shouldn't be, but I would have been, I would have been nervous to speak up.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, [00:07:30] yeah. I mean, it's scary. It's scary to speak up for yourself. It's scary to speak up on behalf of, of friends like it is. And, and so it means a huge amount to me. Um, that diamond was like, I see a problem. I'm bringing it up in the moment. And then when I asked if she felt comfortable, would she be willing to bring it up in the in the chat? She said yes, and she did. And she was like, wow, these look a lot like the slides. Nancy prepared for my session with her when we presented for earmark. [00:08:00] Huh?
Questian Telka: So this is really like the catalyst, right? Or one of the main catalysts for. Recording the episode today, right, is that I.
Nancy McClelland: Was so mad I brought it up. Yeah, I brought it up with the theater public speaking society, which are, you know. A bunch of women who've all been through this program and was like, this happened. And they were like, could you name names? And I said, yes. This is one situation because I brought up plagiarism before [00:08:30] with them. But as we'll talk about later, you know, there are different flavors of plagiarism. This one was really obvious. They simply reused my material.
Questian Telka: Most of the time. It's kind of insidious, right? Most of the time it's kind of insidious. You can't really like call it out and name it. You can tell it's there, you know it. But it's also like this was very blatant. And so.
Nancy McClelland: Right. This was very blatant. And so I. Um, and while I, one of the things that they asked and the theater of public speaking, they were like, did you bring it up? And I was like, oh, yeah, [00:09:00] I heard from diamond. I asked her to mention it in chat. And meanwhile I wrote an email that was in response to the thread from last year where we were planning the episode where I said, here are the slides that I created. Here you go. Right? To make it clear this is that same deck. Um, and obviously they made some edits on them, but I mean, it was, it was quite, it's a distinctive, you know, we learned how to prepare distinctive decks in theater, public speaking.
Questian Telka: And [00:09:30] this was you did, you did address this, right? And it was.
Nancy McClelland: I did so I emailed, yes, I emailed and I the angle that I came at it from was you are both. I did not say the words grown ass men. But I did say, you know, you know better. Plagiarism is not cool. I don't appreciate this. And I need to know what you're going to do about it. And to his credit, Dan immediately responded. He was so [00:10:00] apologetic. Didn't even occur to me. Um, you know, I, I, I just grabbed the deck from last year and said, Rich, will you update this? And, um, you know, we were making changes. Avalara was making changes five minutes before we went live. And I was like, how? I haven't, I haven't fully responded to that response because I'm like, how, how did this feel like it was okay? And he was like, well, you know, it was so busy and, [00:10:30] and the slides didn't get updated in time. And, and it didn't occur to me and this always this kind of thing happens to me, you know, too often because, you know, I try to delegate and then it doesn't happen. And basically I named Plagiarism. And he responded with process failure.
Questian Telka: Ah, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And you know, I, I'm assuming professionalism is mutual here. And it turns out he did not see this as something that he [00:11:00] should be aware of and to in my opinion, I believe that that gap between between how women name a harm because I was very I was very clear about it. Plagiarism is not cool how women name harm and how institutionally and societally that gets reframed in this situation. Process failure. I feel like that is a very important distinction. That's a very powerful distinction. It's part of what I want to explore [00:11:30] today.
Questian Telka: Well, I want to make a point that people plagiarize, but plagiarism, as far as I understand now, I haven't looked it up, but from my recollection, doesn't mean there has to be an element, an element of intentionality, right? So you can plagiarize work without it being intentional. And so reframing it as.
Nancy McClelland: Apologetic, like, yes, it legitimately did not occur to him that you shouldn't use somebody else's slides. And that's one [00:12:00] of the things that I feel like I need to think about. How does that happen in society? And so I did a lot of research on it. Um, I mean, with this episode, I would like to do the, the harder and more interesting work of turning this very fresh wound into something that actually helps other women feel less alone and more equipped. Yeah. Because I really do. This can happen at any level. Like, I'm not new. I'm not a junior level person. Like this was taken from a recognized expert in this [00:12:30] particular area. Um, so this isn't just about being early career or insecure. This can happen at any level if boundaries aren't enforced. And I think.
Questian Telka: Well, and I, I would add to that. It happens to men as well. But there are absolutely some very specific studies and information about how this happens to women, both in like more blatant pieces of work, like you were talking about your slides or with ideas in a room like [00:13:00] idea sharing and one person then resharing that idea and receiving the credit for it. Absolutely. So we're going to talk about like that whole spectrum.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. It's a, it's a spectrum. And I think we need to be asking a couple important questions like who's harmed when credit isn't given. And there's a big difference between men and women because in general, not only does it happen more often to women, but when the credit gets taken away, it affects all [00:13:30] of us. It doesn't just affect that one person, because if we're not enforcing these boundaries, and again, I'm going to argue that this is a responsibility that women have to each other is if you see something, say something, call it out, do something about it, and help each other enforce these boundaries. Because when credit is taken away, um, there's one really interesting study in the sciences about, um, [00:14:00] women being given credit way less often, especially in male dominated fields. So when men are more frequently citing each other and not citing women, then that actually makes the leaning toward being a male dominated field bigger and stronger, right? Because you've got more and more over and over women not being cited. Now, obviously, we've got a field in accounting and bookkeeping [00:14:30] where we're going in pretty much 50 over 50, but a lot of these women aren't making it to partner. That's something you and I have talked about a lot. Um, and because those numbers drop off so strongly, I'm going to argue this is part of that problem. And so we need to be looking out for each other. We need to be saying something and in collectively validating each other, but also taking action as allies, whether we're men or women.
Questian Telka: We'll talk about this later [00:15:00] because we're going to we're going to we're going to understand why this happens. Hopefully at the end of the episode, who it really affects and how we respond. But it's, um, it happens when you talk about like allyship, right? It really is a matter of people listening and listening out for one another. And if you hear someone like repeating an idea or something like that on your scale, it was big, but it could be as much as [00:15:30] sharing a thought in a room and then saying, oh yeah, you're right, question just made that point or Nancy just made that point.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Questian Telka: I think it really resonates.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. Absolutely. When you hear it, and part of that can be honestly, part of that can be. Um, just a way to make sure that other people are hearing that somebody else is having similar ideas so that you're removing some of the confusion [00:16:00] later on about who stole what or whether we're both having similar ideas about something. Right?
Questian Telka: Yes. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So, okay, so our goal is we want to understand why this happens, who it affects and how we respond. And question to the point that you were just making. Let's talk about I idea credit and attribution bias. This is something that there have been a lot of studies about. Um, have you heard of this thing called [00:16:30] the Matilda effect?
Questian Telka: Yes. But explain it for for all of our listeners.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. So, um, this was something that Deb Kilsheimer brought up in. Well, see, look, I just did it. I was just like, hey, this is a thing that I was talking about with a person. This is not my original thought, right? Like this part. I just heard myself do it. I was talking with Deb Kilsheimer in the Theater of Public Speaking Society, and I was talking about this issue that had happened. And she's [00:17:00] like, this is actually a really common thing. And it's called the Matilda Effect. And I was like, yes, I was just reading about this. And in modern day, we call this, um, idea credit and attribution bias, but it's basically the same thing. So the Matilda effect was, um, something in science that was termed a long time ago because over and over and over there were women who were systematically being under credited. Their ideas were being [00:17:30] systematically under credited. So some examples. That's Rosalind Franklin. No, it's not surprising. Unfortunately, I feel like.
Questian Telka: I wish it was.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, I wish it. I totally wish that. So, Rosalind Franklin, she was the one who came up with all of this X-ray crystallography data that was absolutely central to understanding DNA's structure. But the 1962 Nobel Prize went to Watson, Crick, and Wilkins. And [00:18:00] those are the names I know Watson and Crick are the names I know from growing up, I. Rosalind Franklin was never brought up, and the more I've looked into it, the more I'm like, dude, how is she not part of the Nobel Prize that year? Like it's impossible. It's absolutely impossible that it could have happened without her. Jocelyn Bell Burnell She was the one who discovered the first radio pulsars as a grad student in 1967. And something really interesting about that, if you are a music fan, is that the, um, [00:18:30] famous Joy Division album cover is.
Questian Telka: Actually, I love Joy Division.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, that's actually.
Questian Telka: 80s new wave.
Nancy McClelland: Radio pulsars that she discovered. And that was a computer generation. Um, interpretation of her radio pulsars, but nobody knows who she is. But next time you see the cover of that album, you'll be like, hey, you know what? I was a woman who discovered those first radio pulsars. Um, but then the Nobel Prize goes [00:19:00] to her supervisor instead. Yeah. So and then another one is, um, Lise Meitner absolutely key to understanding nuclear fission, but Otto Hahn got the Nobel Prize in chemistry for that. So like, this kind of thing has been happening so much and for so long in science that they actually have a name for it called the Matilda Effect.
Questian Telka: Yeah, that's I again, I wish that I was, [00:19:30] but I'm not surprised.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: And it is. You know, men are often, you know, when these ideas come about, especially in the past history. And they're like the, you know, the data and the studies that talk about this, like you were saying with, um, these, the academic papers that are being published, like men are often assumed to be the owner of knowledge and the woman the contributor. And those are really good examples of that exact situation.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. And I mean, I [00:20:00] think in accounting, it goes it, it's got a different angle that I think is really, really important to bring up. So much of our work is process systems teaching, translation of ideas, right? Those are the kinds of things that are generally more likely to be reused without attribution, right? So like slides, checklists, templates, workflows, that is very high value [00:20:30] stuff, but it's, it's just like, oh, those things are just out there. Those things are just out there. And so they're more likely to be absorbed at rather than credited, even though they're super, super high value for our industry.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I know, I agree. You see it happen because people pass them around one another too. Yeah. And you know, share them without paying the person who, um, created them. So.
Nancy McClelland: Totally. [00:21:00] And I mean, this kind of thing has happened to me more than once. It's happened at different stages of my career in different forms, um, which is how I know it's not about personalities. Like Dan is a good guy. I genuinely like him and I would consider him to be like one of the nicer people in our industry, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah, I.
Nancy McClelland: Know. Personalities.
Questian Telka: I know you and you had said that to me, like right after it happened, you were like, yeah, you know, I was having a hard time grappling with it, right? Yeah. No malice. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So it's because this is systemic. [00:21:30] It's because it's institutional. It's not about personalities. It's about it's about power, right? Like where why does credit drift toward certain voices? I want to let's talk about like how status affects who gets credited with things. You mentioned that women are seen as contributors and not authors or leaders, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's, you know, that has, it has a [00:22:00] few different ways that that happens or comes about like for, for myself, and I've told you this, like I've often in business and in social situations alike will be speaking and I'll share an idea and one minute later somebody else will repeat it, or even seconds later, somebody else just jumps right on and repeats the things that I have said, and then you don't. Then I don't get credit for it. And one of the one of the things that is mentioned [00:22:30] is that. That there can be like a variety of, of reasons, like you were, you were talking about like specific. Specifically like, what did you say? What word did you use? Like, um, like leadership level or something like that. So it can be the status.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Status. That's right. That's the word you use.
Nancy McClelland: The research can be done on this. It's, it's is all about higher status individuals being disproportionately credited [00:23:00] as idea sources, regardless of who actually introduced the idea. Yeah. So that's about status. And it's not that's not 100% about gender, right? Like status. A lot of things feed into status, but gender is one of them.
Questian Telka: And it doesn't. That's one of and that's one of the ways, right? So status can be one of the ways that that happens. And, you know, people looking at someone as more of a leader You're in a particular hierarchy at, at, at work, for example. But then there's [00:23:30] also other things like, um, Vanessa Van Edwards talks about the balance between competence.
Nancy McClelland: And connect this year.
Questian Telka: Yes. And she talks about I listen, I listen to a lot of her. I like to listen to her clips on Instagram, but she talks about and this resonates with me because there is a, a balance between competence and warmth. And I think if you ask the people that I am that know me well, [00:24:00] one of the ways that they would describe me is very warm. And so what she's saying is that there is this balance kind of that is taking place. And if you are perceived as too warm, you can then be perceived as less competent, even though you are often still highly competent. And so people hear you with less authority. And when someone says something with more authority, they tend to be the person who is heard and then receive credit for the [00:24:30] authority. And also it can have a lot to do with the the way that someone communicates and collaborates. So if you're someone who is a very collaborative person and you're really good at pulling ideas out of somebody else and giving them space to talk about ideas, and you're also sharing them, then you're you often get less credit. And so it's, it can and it happens.
Nancy McClelland: I'm gonna give, I'm gonna give an example of that. That [00:25:00] is very interesting. So my grandmother's favorite, my grandma Bunny, her favorite author was Dick Francis. And when his wife died, he stopped publishing books because it turned out she was so crucial to this process. What you're talking about pulling out the ideas and like, getting him brainstorming and thinking and helping him with the the writing that when she died, he was like, I can't do it anymore.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah. And it can be [00:25:30] also a I mean, that makes sense to me. Like you and I have that collaborative energy and you help me really come up with and fine tune ideas. So I think that's a big part of it. And it can also be this, this idea of, um, the way that people look for validation. So some people need validation and other people's people don't. And so it can be the way that you make a [00:26:00] statement, the ending tone of your voice or the fact that you need, um, like some people do need more validation. So they say and do things in a way that kind of creates or gets that or helps them get that validation. Right. So, and I mean, and a lot of.
Nancy McClelland: Thing that we can actually pick up on to help other women is, um, lots of women are not inclined to get [00:26:30] that validation. They're not going to speak up as strongly. Right. So we can speak up for them. So for example, you just mentioned that I help you, um, come up with really good ideas and you know, that I, that we bounce off of each other, right? But then you say out loud to other people, Nancy helps me do this. I love working with Nancy because she's like, you know, you're saying my name. You're giving me that credit in a room when I'm not there to give myself credit.
Questian Telka: That's right.
Nancy McClelland: And I think that that is more important. Yes. This happens this plagiarism and [00:27:00] idea borrowing happens to men and women, but women tend to suffer more when the credit is withheld. And so one thing we can do for each other, as both women and men is frequently bring up other people's names. Um, and while that won't necessarily assuage your own ego, it is a different way to get validation because you can be like, look at all [00:27:30] these conversations I have with all these really amazing people, right? You know, it's kind of like a really wonderfully genuine way of name dropping, right? So that is one of the solutions to this, both men and women as we notice that somebody else. You know, we've had a good conversation with somebody drop their name, you know, because otherwise this credit, it is going to drift toward higher status voices and people who have a bigger platform, a bigger stage [00:28:00] than than we do. Got another. Speaking of stages, I got another story.
Questian Telka: You do? Okay. I wonder if you're going to bring up a story that I was just about ready to ask a question about. Tell me what it is and we'll see, because I think I know where you're going.
Nancy McClelland: Okay, so this was earlier on. This was not early in my career at all. This was early in my speaking career, though, and I was at the National Society of Accountants for cooperatives. So I used to, um, specialize. That was a niche of mine is, is co-ops, [00:28:30] which file an 1120 C a lot of people think that that's a C corporation, but actually an 1120 is a C corporation. 1120 C is co-ops. And, um, so I had been working in this area for a while. I had um, been inspired to their kind of these two different groups in co-op accounting and, and, um, you know, ones like bigger corporations and ones smaller. And I was like, oh, I'd really love to teach these accountants who are working in these bigger corporations about [00:29:00] these other areas of co-op accounting that I think would be really helpful and interesting to them. So I, um, submitted to speak at the annual nSac, uh, conference. And because I was not well known to their group. They said, you know, in order to bring more credibility to your talk, we're going to pair you with the head of education at nSac. And he's going to co-present. [00:29:30] Yeah. Can you guess what happened here?
Questian Telka: I know what happened here. I can, I remember I, I remember this story and that's why I got two thumbs down when nobody can listen, you can hear it. But when she's starting to tell this story, I'm like doing two thumbs down because I know where it's going.
Nancy McClelland: And yeah.
Questian Telka: Tell tell everyone what happened.
Nancy McClelland: I created the entire talk. I created the slides, I created, I did all of the data research. So all of the citations, [00:30:00] all of the examples, 100% of everything I did, the intellectual and the physical labor. Like I created it all. I assigned my co-presenter, uh, the, the slides that he was going to be doing. Um, I arrive ahead of time to the room to, you know, meet up to do this presentation and he has me sit at a table next [00:30:30] to the podium to deliver my portions and he stands at the podium for the entire time. Um, I kid you not, that I am now 53 years old and like hell that would happen to me now. Oh of.
Questian Telka: Course. Well, I mean, look, you just you, you know, no wonder you had you were triggered when you know, what happened, happened because it's not the first time that something similar has taken place. So tell me, you know, tell me what? So he has you [00:31:00] sit there, he delivers this presentation, which is.
Nancy McClelland: He literally questioned. He literally points to the slide at one point and he goes, when I prepared this slide, da da da da da da da. He literally said that in the. I just swung toward him and looked up and my jaw dropped and I'm like, did that actually happen? I mean, it was just amazing.
Questian Telka: And I know and in that moment, you just want to stand up and say, actually.
Nancy McClelland: Right, I really wanted [00:31:30] to. But, you know, I knew that would reflect poorly on me. Right. And I was doing that game where I'm like, okay, how much of this do I do? I say out loud, and how much don't I? Because I don't know how it's going to reflect on me. When women, when women say something, it that's it.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: It can have repercussions big time. Oh, yeah.
Questian Telka: Absolutely. I mean, what happens is we often get penalized for speaking up and named as difficult. Yes. [00:32:00] Yes, exactly.
Nancy McClelland: And so I didn't want to be that person. And also, you know, you're self-doubting. You're like, this was my first really big conference that I was speaking at. And, and I was like, am I imagining this? Like the self-doubt, even though it was freaking blatantly obvious, right? The physical staging is reinforcing this hierarchy. He's literally saying that he prepared slides that he did not write like, but I still come out of it afterward and I'm [00:32:30] like, did I, did that happen? Did I? Maybe I misinterpreted it. Maybe he forgot that he didn't prepare the slides, I don't know. Like I was trying to look for some excuse and my girlfriend's afterward, I was like, did that just happen there? Like that just happened, girl, that just happened. So I don't know if I told you what ended up happening in this story, though. Do you know that I got denied publication because of this?
Questian Telka: I believe you told me that. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So what happened was it was a very popular, um, session. [00:33:00] And so they wanted me to do an article in the journal and, uh, but they wanted it to be, they wanted me to write it based on that talk. And they wanted him to be listed as a coauthor. And I said, no, absolutely not. With all due respect to the inspiration that he has provided in other articles that he's written and in work that he's done, this is my work and he already tried to take credit [00:33:30] for it, didn't take credit for it. In this session, I will be happy to. I will be happy to mention in the article what an inspiration he's been, and I will be happy to refer to the work and even cite the work that he's done in this area. But this is not his area of expertise. This is my area of expertise. Most of what he has learned about it has come from me. I'm not willing to share the author. [00:34:00]
Questian Telka: So what did they. So you didn't get published? Did they publish it under his name?
Nancy McClelland: No. No, it was just denied. Public. Yeah. No, it's not like they. That would have been egregious. But no, I was denied publication unless I was willing to surrender authorship. And I was not asking for like exclusivity. I offered proper attribution and ethical sourcing and professional integrity. And they were basically like, the lesson I took away from that is you can have exposure or you can have ownership, but you can't have both.
Questian Telka: I [00:34:30] mean, that would be the lesson that I would take away. That's basically what they're telling you. And they're telling you that it's okay for someone to put their name on and use your work appropriately.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. So this is, I mean, going back to what you were saying about, you know, when you were talking about status, power and access to platform, these amplify these problems. They it's, you know, the seniority, institutional backing, the size of that stage. [00:35:00] Like it. Not only do people in that situation see it happening, but it also these when everything's getting credited, you know how when you look up a quote and it's like Albert Einstein and it turns out he didn't say half of the things that are attributed to him. This happened to a lot of leaders. And that's not again, that's not just a gender thing. It's that we're looking at who has high status, who, who is it likely was the originator. Does it make sense that [00:35:30] Albert Einstein would have said that? Yeah, sure. That makes sense. I buy that, right. And and so authority signals this. And then we keep feeding into it and it becomes normalized and it becomes, you know, from society will, will look at that higher status person and disproportionately credit them as idea sources and.
Questian Telka: Right. And then the person who is the source of the idea, it hesitates to speak up because [00:36:00] they are scared of getting penalized for violating like the what is it? The unspoken rules that there of how you're supposed to behave? Um, you know, not through like a formal disciplinary action, but like social consequences or being scared that you're not going to get the work or you're going to be, um, viewed like I, again, like I said, is difficult and not a team player.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. [00:36:30] I mean, we, we had a whole episode where we talked about like this, this, um, I forget what it's called, but it's like this, this constant, uh, cognitive, um, work that women are doing, trying to be like, is this how do I speak up? Is this worth speaking up? And it makes us hesitate in the moment. Um, but there are real. It is, it is exhausting, but there are real consequences, very negative consequences, not just to the people [00:37:00] who are not getting credit, but to women in general. Because it's not about ego. Like you were saying earlier. It's about professional capital, right? Like it these things, when you get credit for them, you get more invitations to speak or you get more sponsorships. But it's also gives you more authority and that all leads to more income, right?
Questian Telka: But it's also not just so that is very important. But I want to talk about another side of that too, [00:37:30] is that it amplifies when you're not. When that's not happening, you're, you're failing to amplify diverse voices.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Right. Yes. That is so true.
Questian Telka: It's like it's, it's harming you, but it's also societally harming everyone because you're not, you don't have those ideas and viewpoints which are so rich because they come from different cultural perspectives and just different perspectives in general. Totally. [00:38:00]
Nancy McClelland: Totally. I That is such a good point because, you know, I'm speaking at it from the perspective of when credit disappears, that like downstream from that opportunity disappears. And you're saying not only is that opportunity disappearing, but it means that us as, as the audience, right? Like as the consumers of this information, we're not hearing the whole story.
Questian Telka: We're not hearing the whole story, and we're actually getting information that isn't as high quality [00:38:30] or as diverse. So there's a, you know, it prevents diversity of thought because you are preventing those individuals from actually getting credit for and then continuing to create as well. Because if you go through this and it happens to you time and time again, you're not going to be you're going to be, um, you'll just be jaded about continuing to put your thoughts and ideas out there.
Nancy McClelland: It's so true. Yeah. I, [00:39:00] you know, in trying to figure out why we don't speak up more often for ourselves or for our colleagues. And I was again, doing more research, trying to figure out like, why do we hesitate in the moment? And was reminded of everything that we've been talking about with this like cognitive load that we carry. But there's another factor going on here. Um, that was I, it kept coming across it, but I didn't [00:39:30] know what it meant. And so I had to go to ChatGPT and ask it to, to look this phrase up for me. Got it.
Questian Telka: And credit ChatGPT.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, we're going to credit ChatGPT with this.
Questian Telka: We gotta make sure that when the robots take over later or ChatGPT AI takes over later, that they look kindly on us.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. I don't want them to be mad at me. So the phrase that I kept coming across was social sanctioning. Have you heard of this? Because I had not.
Questian Telka: Yes, I know, I understand what you're saying. [00:40:00] Yes.
Nancy McClelland: I'm going to read the definition that ChatGPT gave me because this was not a phrase that I understood. Social sanctioning is what happens when a group penalizes someone for violating unspoken rules about how they're supposed to behave, not through formal discipline, but through social consequences. So it was going back to what you were saying earlier this, this is really under the radar [00:40:30] kind of stuff, and we don't even realize we're doing it when we do it, when we presume that someone else is the author and somebody else was the helper, or like the horrible thing that I do, if I see a woman who's an announcer on a sports something, I'm like, oh, she doesn't want to be there. She's like that being forced to be there, and it's the stupidest thing on earth. I still can't believe that I do this and I have to exercise that muscle to be like, no, Nancy, She got she probably fought really [00:41:00] hard.
Questian Telka: Oh my gosh.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Can you even imagine how hard a woman.
Nancy McClelland: Would.
Questian Telka: Have to fight to be a female, a sports announcer? I knew one.
Nancy McClelland: Way that I can imagine it is I know how hard it's been in accounting. And we have equal representation in accounting up to a certain level. So no, I can't, I don't I don't get it. I, I cannot imagine, I cannot imagine, but like to go back to what you were [00:41:30] talking about earlier, being ignored or talked over or quietly excluded, like you say something and then somebody else says it. What do you even do in that situation? Because when a woman.
Questian Telka: I so it's happened. It happened. It's happened to me so much in my life that I've just I've gotten used to it, but sometimes I'll repeat myself or I just get like, oh, and I. And I shrug. But recently, um, my partner watched [00:42:00] it happen to me, like repeatedly in a setting and was like, I cannot believe like was like, I was like, you see, you see what's happening. And he was like, wow, like, and you're.
Nancy McClelland: Like, it's not my imagination, right?
Questian Telka: It's not my imagination. That's right. He's like, no, it's definitely not your imagination. Like, I saw it. And then we were just, we were like hysterically laughing about it because it was like a handful of times. And, you know, it was not intentional at all. It was like, and this was in a social [00:42:30] setting. So, um, there was not like intentionality. It was just like, so then I started kind of researching and trying to figure out why.
Nancy McClelland: You said earlier, you said earlier intentionality is beside the point. Plagiarism and idea borrowing happens all the time with no intent, with no, um, you know, there's no malice necessarily. It happens all the time. Sometimes there is. But what you're talking about and some of these other examples, [00:43:00] when we actually do say something about it, like when we assert ownership, we're more likely to trigger this social sanctioning because we're violating those expectations. Question you're supposed to be agreeable. Question you're supposed to be generous. You're supposed to be collaborative. You know, so like it's, it's when I, when I set this professional boundary around my authorship, I was sanctioned [00:43:30] like professionally in that situation, but it was structural. It was a societal thing. And I, I just think that this internal cost that women carry this like decision, am I going to be assertive or am I going to be likable? I think that that's that feeds into this. There was a series of studies that have consistently found that women who claim credit or [00:44:00] advocate for themselves are evaluated more negatively than men who exhibit the same behavior. And so, of.
Questian Telka: Course, because women are women are looked at as like, if you are, then you're aggressive or you're, you know, assertive. And it's like, these are all words that are considered positive for men and negative when culturally speaking, about women in our society.
Nancy McClelland: And so I'll be frank, I don't want people to think I'm a bitch, but [00:44:30] that's how I feel like I am viewed like you anticipate those social penalties, even when like you're completely justified. You're like, I, this is somebody's going to think I'm a bitch. Yeah. And then of course, I second guess ourselves.
Questian Telka: I know we're not going to share this story yet, but like, there's a story that I want to share. But to your point, go ahead.
Nancy McClelland: I want to hear what you have to say.
Questian Telka: Okay. Okay. [00:45:00] So, um, you know, obviously we have a podcast and there are some very specific topics that we talk about, ways that we verbalize it. We are very intentional in giving credit to people that we get ideas from. Um, we love to call out our friends and our colleagues in our episodes. It's one of our favorite.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely.
Questian Telka: And not so long ago after the podcast [00:45:30] started, I sent you some clips that I found of another podcaster who had.
Nancy McClelland: A woman to a woman, right? Another female.
Questian Telka: Podcaster. Yeah. Who had in my view, plagiarized our ideas, use some words that were very specific. That actually came to me from another colleague who we gave credit to in in that episode. [00:46:00] Um, and they were just nuanced. It was highly nuanced. The conversation and, and I thought, okay, it's possible that this is a one off. So we've, you know, and we've really never done anything about it. And the reason, you know, it's like, I want to share this story because I want to talk about it, but I have this also still, like very honestly have this fear of calling out and hurting someone's professional reputation, whether they've done something that I think is inappropriate or [00:46:30] not.
Nancy McClelland: And so well, and this is a super gray area, right? Because it's one thing to take someone's slides and reuse them. That's pretty obviously plagiarism. It is one thing to stand at the podium and force the other person to sit down next to you and claim ownership of the material, right? Those are not great areas. Those are just wrong. And even in those situations, I was like gulping and thinking, should I say anything? And then being like, no, I have to say something. [00:47:00] These what you're talking about is a gray area because we talk about a lot of topics that.
Questian Telka: That.
Nancy McClelland: Lots of people think about that we even, we literally say like in our intro, what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying.
Questian Telka: Exactly like, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: We want to get these ideas out there and there are other people who are thinking it too, right? So you don't want to shut anybody down?
Questian Telka: No.
Nancy McClelland: You don't want to say no, this is my idea and you can't share it because you.
Questian Telka: Can't share it. But acknowledgment [00:47:30] is the key, right? Recognizing that you that you got an idea that somebody else made you think right, that somebody else made you think or gave you an idea or helped you along the way. And so I've tried to look at this situation. So it happened a couple of other times after.
Nancy McClelland: So it happened three times total. And then. And then you told me that you actually stopped looking at that person's posts and listening to their podcast [00:48:00] because you were like, because.
Questian Telka: I just like, I don't. Yeah, exactly. And I've tried to just be flattered by it and kind of move on.
Nancy McClelland: Flattery does not pay the bills, though. I think that is true. You know that old saying you can die from exposure?
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: People offer you exposure and you're like, yeah, I'm done. Thank you. It's hard, though, because you want those ideas to get out there. So like, when is it theft and when is it?
Questian Telka: When is it like [00:48:30] overlap? Yeah, exactly. And sometimes you have and we have another story that is similar to this too. Sometimes you have very similar ideas as a colleague, do you want to talk about the. What happened with.
Nancy McClelland: Nicole?
Questian Telka: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. So I got Nicole. I asked Nicole, um, her permission to use her name with us, and she was like, hell yes. [00:49:00] And then she said, just make me look good. And I'm like, girl, you always look good.
Questian Telka: That's what I.
Nancy McClelland: Said.
Questian Telka: I'm like.
Nancy McClelland: You can't like.
Questian Telka: Is there any other option?
Nancy McClelland: Yes. She is inspiring. So we had a misunderstanding that that thankfully, because she is open and assertive and all of those things that, you know, people get social sanctioning for, she does it anyway. And so thankfully, because she's open about these things, we were able to clear up [00:49:30] a misunderstanding. So our episode that came out on imposter ism, um, she saw a social media post where we talk about the fact that we don't think it should be called imposter syndrome because there's no syndrome, there's no health, there's no pandemic going on here like this. Just a normal part of being human is very natural. Most people struggle with these feelings of imposter ism. And we mentioned [00:50:00] that in the social media post. And Nicole texts the two of us and she's like, credit where credit is due. Come on, ladies. And I'm like.
Questian Telka: We were so confused.
Nancy McClelland: Talking about, well, what had happened was this. So Nicole did not know that I've been talking about this for a good three plus years now. She she hadn't like come across my posts on the topic. She hadn't come across your training. Yeah. [00:50:30] The training that I do or the, the thing that I, that I did for the CFO project, you know, that a lot, a lot of different things where I've been saying isn't that a syndrome drives me nuts when people write. Turns out, drives her nuts, too.
Questian Telka: So what.
Nancy McClelland: Happened was, um, about ten months ago or so, we were having a conversation in our theater, public speaking society, WhatsApp. And she, this [00:51:00] topic came up and she shared a lot of ideas, really valuable stuff, really great thought leadership. Um, and I totally agreed with what she was saying. And Misty was like, hey, Nancy, do you want to chime in here? Because Misty knows that this has been an area that I've been speaking about for quite some time. And I have some, some ideas on this that are, that are a little bit different than than other folks out there. And she was like, hey, do you want to share? But it was right when everything was going on with my [00:51:30] mom suddenly, um, you know, being in, um, the hospital and the rehabilitation center and me trying to get on Medicaid and it was major emergencies. And I was like, thanks, Misty. But I'm like, this is going to have to happen later. And it did. I ended up putting some stuff together for the advanced theater public speaking retreat on the topic, but I didn't talk about it in that moment. And so Nicole did not know. She had no way of knowing that. I did not [00:52:00] take what she said and use it.
Questian Telka: And it was with no attribution, right. And it was the the concepts were very similar, and that's what it was that made her go, oh, okay. Because they were they're both unique, right? We're well.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, like my overall perspective and her overall perspective and, and the details of it, whatever. There are definitely a lot of differences, a lot of unique thought in there. But this concept about not calling it a syndrome, [00:52:30] that is something that we share. So that's convergent evolution at work, right? It's where the need for a concept, uh is there and more than one person comes up with the idea at the same time.
Questian Telka: That's right. And it happens a lot.
Nancy McClelland: It does.
Questian Telka: It does, it happens a lot. And so it's like.
Nancy McClelland: Especially in this space that you and I are talking about and she counts. And even, you know what I'm going to I'm going to give Dan and Rich an out here. I'm [00:53:00] not the only person who talks about 1099, so I am not. That is not unique. Thought that slides were unique. Some of how I'm teaching it is unique. But like lots of people talk about technical stuff and it's hard to suss out like where was their original thought? Just because we're both talking about the same topic. That's a technical topic, you know, that's there's no ownership there.
Questian Telka: So right.
Nancy McClelland: It's a gray area, right? It's a really well, bless her heart. She reached out. She was very upset. We [00:53:30] talked about it and I explained to this and I even gave her like a link to the, this presentation that was recorded from a few years ago, that she knew that I wasn't taking that from her. And I, I did go in and I changed the, um, I changed the, the she counts social media post to include her name. We had shouted out Jennifer Diamond, but we hadn't shouted out Nicole. Nicole Davis because we hadn't mentioned. I don't think we mentioned her name on the on [00:54:00] the actual episode, but I just included her name. I'm like, because we've been having these conversations and, um, and I, it's so attribution so important to me that I was just horrified that she thought that we would, especially because we mentioned her on the show.
Questian Telka: What's important to note is that those that I know, right? Like we, we, I'm like, we, we should just put her, we should just give her attribution for every episode on every episode because she's important to, she is such a thought leader and [00:54:30] so important to you and I, and how we, um, formulate and share ideas. But, um, Yeah. I think that it's important to recognize that like misunderstandings, they happen.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, they happen, but you got to bring it up. And where Nicole really shined in this moment, I was so impressed is that she said something. She was upset. She brought it up with us. She did not, like, let that resentment fester. [00:55:00] She brought it up. I was able to clear it up and she apologized. She's like, oh my gosh, we're just both thinking great thoughts at the same time like that. Yeah, it's great.
Questian Telka: Minds think alike, right? Yeah. As they say.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. And so, you know, I to me, that was really inspiring. And it's one of the reasons that I immediately reached out to, to Dan and Rich recently is that I was like, no, we've got to save these things out loud because maybe there's a misunderstanding, you know, or who knows what if we don't say the things out loud, they [00:55:30] will fester. It will become resentful and we're not helping out each other and we're not helping out our society and we're not helping out with the diversity of ideas and all of that stuff.
Questian Telka: That's right. So this happens a lot, right? We've had we've shared a number of stories and it's like all over the spectrum. And I know that you have a story that you feel is different in some pretty specific ways. So.
Nancy McClelland: Well, it's one of these, it's one of [00:56:00] these gray area stories that, you know, you're talking about how like, how can you tell when is it?
Questian Telka: Well, most of them are gray, right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, most of them are. But I want to make it clear that whether it's great or not, we need to speak up for each other and for ourselves and for other people. Right? And this is a this is a happy ending story where that happened. So our listeners may at this point be like, damn, [00:56:30] Nancy gets her stuff stolen an awful lot. Yes, this happens to me a lot. I don't know why. I don't know what it is, but it has happened quite a few times. Maybe I just have such great ideas, I don't know, but having.
Questian Telka: Great ideas and people catch it. You have, you know, great.
Nancy McClelland: I have eyes on the ground.
Questian Telka: That's what I was going to say. You have incredible relationships. You have incredible relationships. So when people see something that they know is yours, they, they, they [00:57:00] tell you. Yes. So I think it's a combination of things.
Nancy McClelland: This this story, this happened, um, last year. I think this happened last year, year and a half ago, I think ish. And, um, so this slide situation that we talked about before was like a clear reuse of my work, the podium story, clear misattribution of my labor. This story is different because it's, it's in that gray zone that we were talking about, like, who comes up with original ideas and, and [00:57:30] who, um, who has access to other people's ideas and that kind of thing. Because like you said, most of the harm, it lives in this gray area. So what happened was, um, I am in the group realize which is Json stats community for firm runners. And he had a really cool class where it was how to create a community, like how to build a paid community. And I participated in that. And that's where I built out a lot of [00:58:00] the ask a CPA community, uh, stuff that I had been thinking about for a long time. But now it was like, how to get my questions answered and just do it. And one of the most important things that he taught me was just don't wait until it's perfect. It's never going to be perfect and it's going to change later on anyway, just launch. And it was very, very helpful and motivational, but we shared a lot of information in there about what we were going to be doing. And I had talked with him about the fact that I was starting this, um, [00:58:30] community for bookkeepers who would like to collaborate with tax professionals, but for whatever reason, they don't feel safe talking to their clients tax pros because they get treated condescendingly or because it might damage their credibility.
Nancy McClelland: And there's this all really awful tension between tax pros and US tax pros and bookkeepers that I want to help address. It's, it's the topic that I'm going to be. I've talked about it at tax retreat. I've talked [00:59:00] about it scaling new heights. I've talked about it. I'll be talking about it at engage this year. This is my thing, right? It's my thing. I've been talking about this for a long time, and he had insight into all of this stuff that I was doing with this community. And I ran into him at Bridging the Gap and told him, hey, you're never gonna believe it. We launched. I'm so excited. And I told him about some of the stuff that was going on. And like 2 or 3 weeks later, he's got a social media post up saying there's so much tension between tax pros and bookkeepers [00:59:30] and how can we address this? And I want bookkeepers to tell me what makes them frustrated about tax pros and tax pros. I want you to tell me what, what what do you wish bookkeepers knew? And I was like, hey, we've got these lists, Jason. We've already got these lists. I, I've made them at tax retreat. I've made them at like with my bookkeepers in this group, like I've been doing this research a long time, fella, but I found out about it because a bunch of people saw these posts and in the, uh, [01:00:00] comments, they were tagging me and they're like, hey, this is a thing Nancy's put a lot of thought into.
Questian Telka: Work into.
Nancy McClelland: Like, I don't yeah, I don't know if I would have come across.
Questian Telka: So what.
Nancy McClelland: Happened? So I email him, I email him and I'm like, hey buddy, um, I'm really glad you're doing this because you have a way bigger platform than I do and you can get it out to more people. But why don't we collaborate on this? Because I have already done this work. Why don't you invite me on your podcast and we can present the results of the [01:00:30] research you're doing, which lines up really, really, really well with the research that I've done and the crowdsourcing and all of that kind of stuff. And he wrote me back and he was like, hey, the podcast is already planned and it's too late to have you be a part of it. But I will give you a shout out. So in two different episodes, uh, the one that's about what bookkeepers wish tax pros knew, and one of them is about what tax pros wish bookkeepers know. He was like. And if there's one person out there who's really doing great work in this area, it's Nancy, [01:01:00] the dancing accountant, and her ask a CPA community. And so he did give me credit attribution in the two podcast episodes. That's great.
Questian Telka: Did he acknowledge that? And maybe he didn't know this and maybe it didn't, I don't know. But did he acknowledge that the idea for the post, like had been spurred by like a conversation with you?
Nancy McClelland: So he did not And that you know, I'll fault him for that one. He [01:01:30] said, oh, for some reason I thought the community were building was for small business owners. I didn't realize it was bookkeepers. And I it's really hard to believe that that's true because we definitely have talked about it a decent amount. Um, but I have a good relationship with him and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I do think that this triggered him. The conversation that we had at Bridging the Gap triggered him to think, this is a really important thing that I should bring up, [01:02:00] and he literally just forgot where that idea came from.
Questian Telka: That happens so often. It's like, you know, especially if you're having conversations and it's a casual conversation and you're just, you know, having through the natural course, something like that comes up, you go to bed, you sleep on it for a long time, and then you wake up and think that it was something that, you know, it can be spurred from so many different places.
Nancy McClelland: So I do it to myself. Sometimes when I'm like writing articles, I'll like reuse words that I [01:02:30] used earlier in the article. Like when I come back to it the next day because I've forgotten that I already talked about it. Well, there's, there's actually a scientific term for it, um, a sociological term called source confusion. I mentioned convergent thinking earlier, but source confusion is another part of this. And the idea there is that people remember ideas better than sources. Um, and cognitive psychology research shows that source memory degrades faster than idea memory. So unintentional misattribution or lack of attribution [01:03:00] is more likely when people repeatedly engage with the same themes. And that's exactly what happens in Jason's and my world, right? Yeah. Um, Candy Belo mentioned in our theater public speaking society, WhatsApp, obviously listeners are like, wow, that's a really active WhatsApp. Yes it is. You'll open your phone and it'll be like 794 new messages.
Questian Telka: I know I can't, I can't, I love, I love, it's a little overwhelming like, oh yeah, for I'm an introvert, right? So. Right. [01:03:30]
Nancy McClelland: Well, Candy Bello mentioned in there and I asked her permission to use her name. Her, somebody called her out for plagiarizing something in a social media post, and she realized that she had unintentionally reproduced an idea. She really did think it was her own. She she genuinely did. So that's why we cannot automatically presume malice or.
Questian Telka: Oh, right. That's right. That's a good. I think that's a great example. Um, that makes sense. And it's like they come at you genuinely [01:04:00] hear it, process it, think about it later, like something brings it top of mind and it's like, you don't remember necessarily where that came from. So it does happen.
Nancy McClelland: So where does it become problematic, though, is that women are encouraged to build in public, collaborate, share generously, but the system still rewards those who claim ownership last or loudest or with the most reach or the highest status, right? So you've got this constant internal, like, do I speak up or do I let it [01:04:30] go for the greater good? Or do I protect my work? Or do I risk being seen as ungenerous? Or do I want credit or do I want progress? So now that my therapy session is over, we want to give a constructive path forward. We've talked about some of this already, but I want to know question what actually changes outcomes.
Questian Telka: I think what actually changes outcomes is, well, number [01:05:00] one, awareness, which is why we're sharing it, right? We want there needs to be an awareness and an acknowledgment that this happens. And that also is part of the reason that we do this. So nobody feels alone in the fact that this is happening. And then again, basically, exactly what happened to you is when you see it like validation that this has taken place right from colleagues and peers, people sharing with you that this [01:05:30] has happened. And when you reach out to someone, so it's forcing yourself to reach out to someone and to address it, right? And to say, I feel like this is what has happened. Like, um, what, what you did and what Nicole did and what so many of the people sharing in the story did. I mean, what would you add to that that would change that you feel would change outcomes?
Nancy McClelland: I mean, I think that this shift from the individual [01:06:00] response to the collective response is the most important thing that can really bring societal change, but can also make a difference in the individual instances, right? Like instead of spiraling in isolation and self-doubt, I have peers that I can go to. Yes. And it's a, it becomes a collective support, right? Trusted peers, they're acting as I don't know. Witnesses. Right. Like they're lending me certainty that I [01:06:30] might not have had.
Questian Telka: Giving you validation. Like when you told me what was happening, I think my literal response to you was WTF? And I think Nicole and Nicole. Nicole's response to you was W-2 AF. And so it was like, here's. Here's some. First of all, let's, let's get validation for the fact that you are right for feeling this way.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, so when we speak up for each other, two things happen. Number one, we make it safer [01:07:00] for someone else to name harm. So it was it's easier for me to reach out to say, hey, this happened. If there are a bunch of people in the comments or in the chat saying, hey, this was Nancy's, this is Nancy's thing. Um, so that just makes it safer for me, because now I'm not the only person who's like, you know, I'm upset. I want you to, you know, placate me. Instead, they're kind of setting a [01:07:30] ground, setting the stage, but, you know, putting some groundwork in there. And the other thing that happens is we actually retrain our nervous systems to recognize that just because something is uncomfortable and we speak out about it, it doesn't mean we're overreacting. And I think women generally are like, this is uncomfortable to say out loud, therefore I must be overreacting or I know you know what I'm talking about.
Questian Telka: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, [01:08:00] I ask myself that all the time.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, I really think that shared clarity is so important because then it's not just confrontation, right? So like, I am not telling these stories about what went wrong to be like, doesn't that suck? I am sharing them to show what went right and why that matters so dang much, because we got to normalize these internal reactions that women are trained to suppress. And we we need to reduce for each other [01:08:30] the personal risk of speaking up and question something that you have talked about a lot is, is allyship and sponsorship from men.
Questian Telka: Exactly. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Think about what that could do in this situation.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, I mean, they could start by making sure that they're not doing it right. Well, yeah. That's true. I mean everybody needs to do that. Not just not just men, but we do know from the data that it does disproportionately happen to women. So I mean that would be good.
Nancy McClelland: It's important [01:09:00] to remember it's not it's not villainous behavior. Most of the time it's in that gray area, right? So like it's normalized professional behavior. And so when a man hears you in conversation, say something warmly, Right to be like, oh yeah, that's what question was just telling us.
Questian Telka: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Very loudly. Like, oh, that's right. Yes. So then people recognize that's where the idea came from. Yeah. We'd like to close with some reflective [01:09:30] questions for listeners to think about how they share ideas, credit others and speak up for themselves and for each other. And the first one is, where are you sharing your work that represents your expertise. Also, who benefits when your name is removed? And what would change if you treated your ideas as assets instead of favors? Because that's what they are.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. [01:10:00] Absolutely.
Questian Telka: This has been an amazing conversation. I feel like it's been a long time coming, and I feel like we have so much content that we, we just we couldn't stop ourselves. So yeah.
Nancy McClelland: This was so good. Thank you for for being with therapy today, I appreciate it.
Questian Telka: I like to be your I like to I'm always happy to be your therapist. So.
Nancy McClelland: Um.
Questian Telka: Uh, as we wrap up, we would like to ask listeners to follow our she Counts podcast [01:10:30] LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode credit where due. Have you ever had your work passed off by someone else as their own? We really want to hear your stories. Like, I really hope that we get some of you to chime in and share the stories that have happened to you, because I think it's really important for everyone to know that this is happening and with how much frequency it's happening, and it's also a good outlet just [01:11:00] to get it out there.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a famous quote by Virginia Woolf. I'd venture to guess that for most of history, anonymous was a woman.
Questian Telka: Thanks for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, girl, get in touch with me. Because it does me too. That's exactly why we're doing this. [01:11:30]
Questian Telka: So you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember, you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked app links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors and their solutions. And any other resource will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps us help other people find the podcast. And we would also be honored if you would share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: We'll [01:12:00] see everyone in two weeks.