There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting, where your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and [00:00:30] you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season three sponsors. This is our first episode of season three, Bill and carbon. Woo hoo! We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, really enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. You can learn more about them on our sponsors [00:01:00] page@she.io.
Questian Telka: And if you want to support the podcast, the one thing that would make the biggest impact for us is to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. The reviews really do help others to find the podcast.
Nancy McClelland: And remember, you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit. And please follow the podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation. We are getting really close to a [00:01:30] thousand followers and we are super excited about that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, we need to do something to celebrate when we when we get there, but we haven't quite figured out what it's going to be yet.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, we're going to do something special.
Questian Telka: That's right. So today's episode is called The Big D Radical Acceptance Work and Rebuilding in Real time.
Nancy McClelland: So by the big D, what we mean is divorce. We are having an honest conversation about navigating divorce while still [00:02:00] running a career, raising kids, and somehow holding it all together. And it's, um. It's all about radical acceptance and financial independence and becoming someone new without pretending that this middle isn't messy as all get out.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And, um, if there's anything that I've learned about this process is that you can be choosing something and still grieve it. And that relief [00:02:30] and struggle can sit at the same table and neither one cancels the other out. That's what this season in life has taught me more than anything. And as everyone is aware, we love watching each episode with a story. And Nancy, do you want to share our very recent Todolist victory with the listeners?
Nancy McClelland: Oh yes I do. I very much do. Um, because it was the genesis [00:03:00] for this whole episode. You know, we've got this really long list of topics and ideas that we go back to over and over again. But sometimes the birth of an idea for an episode comes from something very recent and natural that has happened to us. And that's what happened here. So our very most recent episode, the final one of season two, was with Valerie Hekman of On Pay, and she was teaching us about her ta da list and the practice of not only [00:03:30] recording the things that you have to do and scratching them off, but actually writing down the things that you've accomplished and saying, yay me, even if it's something really small. So we were talking about this in the last episode, and questions says something like, oh, I am really motivated by gold stars.
Questian Telka: So like the ones that you get in elementary school when you're a kid and you have that chart right with all the. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Exactly. And so I was like, you know what would be really nice [00:04:00] thing to do for her? She's been going through a tough time recently. And one of my love languages is gifts. So I got on to Etsy and I found someone who makes like adult to do lists with gold stars like star chart gold, not a star chart, like an astrological star chart, but like a, a gold star chart. And for those of you who are watching the YouTube of it, I've got a picture of it right here. So there are all those beautiful gold stars [00:04:30] and this weekly tracker. And I sent this to her and I get, I get a text that says, oh my God, I'm crying. And then she wrote, I just had to read over my 31 page divorce paperwork and I added, getting through it to my to do list, I am happy, but it's also so incredibly sad. And I was like, hey, you know, those aren't mutually [00:05:00] exclusive. Of course you're proud, you're relieved, you're happy. And it's also like the end of something that was a huge part of your life. And those things aren't mutually exclusive. And so we started talking about it. We started talking about this dialectical behavior therapy concept of radical acceptance, and the awareness that two seemingly opposing things can be absolutely [00:05:30] true at the same time. And, um, so we decided this can be the right decision and still feel devastating. You don't have to pretend like it's one or the other.
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right. And that moment made me realize when we were talking about that, that divorce is radical acceptance, like in pure real life form, right? So two really opposing emotions can exist at the same time. So there's the [00:06:00] relief that it's over or almost over. And you've gotten through this process and you made those decisions. Um, you can also find strength and be exhausted and, um, you know, wanting it and still struggling to get through it at the same time. And, you know, this has been like one of those times in my life where I have experienced, and this is kind of the, the like two polar opposite emotions [00:06:30] and scenarios happening, happening at the same time where it's like there's this really big struggles and something really difficult happening and also some incredible, really amazing things happening at the same time. So, and for our listeners who may not be familiar with it, can you share, Nancy, what radical acceptance kind of is?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. Um, as a matter of fact, I, I [00:07:00] almost wish I were back home in Chicago instead of in Mexico right now because I would have gotten out my favorite mug, which was a gift to me from years ago, uh, a former COO who had hired me to, to do some consulting for their company. She saw how hard I was always trying to change reality to, like, wish that it were different. And I was constantly revisiting, like, if only this had happened, then we wouldn't be dealing with this. And, and but what if it [00:07:30] had gone this way? Wouldn't that have been. And she was just like, dude, it is what it is. Let it go. It is what it is. And she finally bought me a mug. And it was one of my very favorite mugs. And it says really big on it. It is what it is. And that is a really great way to sum up this, this dialectical behavioral therapy concept. Um, dialectical means acting through opposing forces. It acknowledges that pain is [00:08:00] part of life. Right. But we can if we implement radical acceptance, we recognize that it is what it is. We can keep that pain from turning into suffering by accepting what is and not constantly ruminating like this is unfair. Why me? If only this had been different. If only I could go back in time, right? Instead you go look. It is what it is [00:08:30] and you allow yourself this freedom to move forward and you will survive. Yes, it is awful. Yes, you are sad, but you're relieved and you will survive. And there is still joy. So it's this combination of validating the pain and recognizing that it is not the whole story.
Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is it for anyone who's experienced it, I'm sure that they can [00:09:00] completely relate and understand. And then there are so many other scenarios in life and in our careers where the, the, the same thing can be happening and be true. Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, for you, it's been a long lead up, right? And I know, you know, logically, we talk about knowing versus all capital letters, knowing, right with your soul and your heart. You can know logically, it's something's the right decision and you're still feeling [00:09:30] a lot of different emotions inside.
Questian Telka: Well, and a big part of the reason that it was such a long lead up is that just like logistically speaking, in North Carolina, they require this Excessively long period of separation before they'll even let you go through it. So it just extends that that time that it takes to get to that, that healing process. And it's a lead up also in trying to make the decision in the first place.
Nancy McClelland: Right, right. That makes sense. So you've had a lot of a [00:10:00] lot of fears, right. And, and a big mental load. Um, talk to us about, you know, the fear of being the sole breadwinner and the mental load of having kids and custody changes and running a business while your personal life is like, wow, you know, like what? Talk to.
Questian Telka: Us. I think that the fear of, you know, being the breadwinner alone, what I had a really hard time with was [00:10:30] it's like you when you have a partner, you are, you have, you're able to rely on them. So if one of you is having a tough time professionally or financially. Then you have the other person to kind of lean on. And so it's like going into it, trying to make the decision, like, I'm going to do this and what is that going to look like? And what is it? What is it going to bring? Is terrifying. And then it changes the way you make business decisions. Because I was much less risk [00:11:00] averse than I am now. And one of the things that actually happened, and it's like I had already, we were already separated. I mean, this has been a process that's been going on for over two years. Um, one of the things that happened in this process is last year I service most of our listeners probably know my firm services entirely outside of a handful of clients, nonprofits, and they all started [00:11:30] losing funding. And I'm in this process going, oh my gosh, they're losing funding. I'm trying to. Figure out how am I going to sustain myself, my kids, and provide for them while also, um, you know, emotionally managing, dealing with clients who are having to, um, lose their losing funding and they're also, um, [00:12:00] you know, having to make big decisions around terminating their employees because they can't afford to pay them anymore. Right.
Nancy McClelland: So you're, you're having these nerves about, about how much you're going to be earning and whether you're going to lose some of these clients or not, or whether they're going to reduce the amount of.
Questian Telka: Services.
Nancy McClelland: Um, services that you're providing. But then you've, you've also got like, there's, they're afraid they've got their emotions going on and you're [00:12:30] helping them manage that at this.
Questian Telka: Oh my.
Nancy McClelland: Gosh. I mean, that's a lot of emotional load.
Questian Telka: Oh, yeah. I feel like I should change my LinkedIn profile to, you know, nonprofit therapists. And it's like, I am right there with them. The reason that I chose to work with non-profits is because I want to support their missions. This is, you know, I didn't do it to become a millionaire. I, I did it because the work that they do is important to me. And so it's like that emotional that on top of everything else going on, that emotional toll [00:13:00] is, is heavy too. So and you know, then there's. Go ahead.
Nancy McClelland: No, I was going to ask how you've been dealing with that, but there's probably a lot more that you want to add to it.
Questian Telka: I'm like, um, because you also have.
Nancy McClelland: Kids and.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: You also have, uh, public speaking, right? You're, you've got more things going on than, than the breadwinning and the clients.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, I mean.
Nancy McClelland: How are you managing it?
Questian Telka: Trying to run a business. [00:13:30] And when you feel like your personal life is unraveling, and I'm sure this resonates with a lot of people. Maybe this isn't the correct way to manage it, but, um, the only way I've been able to deal with it is trying to compartmentalize it the best that I can. So setting aside those feelings and emotions and trying to then focus on, on my clients and on the business instead. And so like having to really separate [00:14:00] those and, um, you know, with the speaking and with my career growth to like one of the things that really led to this. I mean, there's a lot of things, I was married for 13 years, so there was a lot there was after that amount of time, you have a, a long list, especially when maybe you didn't choose correctly in the first place. Um.
Nancy McClelland: But now I want to let you let's give you a break on that one. You were it's very, very hard. It's very easy [00:14:30] to look back and say, I, I didn't choose the right partner. But yeah, like you can't have known that at the time. So give yourself some grace there.
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Anyway, please go ahead.
Questian Telka: Well, I was going to say that it's like interesting. Um, or it's just like complex because one of the things that led to it in the first place was my level of ambition was so high. And when I started to really, um, speak at conferences and [00:15:00] travel for work and, um, my professionally just started to really grow. It, it really, my partner was not supportive of that. And so was like, you would imagine, like you accomplish this incredible goal and this like thing that you've always set out to do. Like, for example, when I would go to conferences, I felt so shy that I couldn't even walk up to and speak to someone. And then fast forward, you're on a stage in front of 500 [00:15:30] people. And when the person that you are doing life with isn't like cheering you on in that process, like, you know, it's, um.
Nancy McClelland: It breaks my heart in part because I have one of the world's most supportive partners. And so I know what that feels like I do. He's, he's so amazing.
Questian Telka: He really.
Nancy McClelland: Do. He, he travels with me because I have this severe neuropathy and he does my physical therapy. And so he actually travels with me to [00:16:00] all of these conferences and carries my luggage and does my PT and helps me manage all of this stuff. And he's, he celebrates the wins. And when he can get into the room, he'll even record video for me or take pictures. It's wonderful.
Questian Telka: That's what I was going to say. I'm always like, Mark, we didn't grab photos of us.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Uh, so I mean, I, I say this, um, I, I say this as a comparison only from [00:16:30] the perspective that, like, my heart breaks for you because I know what having that support feels like, and I know how important it is to me. And you know, I want I want to give that to you. I want you to have that. I want every, every person in any relationship to have that kind of support because it can help you achieve clarity and, um, help you realize your goals in ways that I suspect I would have no, nowhere [00:17:00] near that kind of ability if I didn't have that. So oh.
Questian Telka: Yeah, that makes me.
Nancy McClelland: Really sad.
Questian Telka: Having a cheerleader and that support system is a huge difference.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: You know, feeling like I have this person that I can, I can share this accomplishment that I had. And, um, you know, it's, it's an incredible feeling when you have it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. Now you were also talking about the mental load of kids and the changes in custody. What has that [00:17:30] been looking like?
Questian Telka: Well, thankfully, you know, my ex was not the right person for me, but he is a really good person. Like and we have been able to co-parent very amicably. We have a very amicable divorce. Divorce. Like we we get along. Um, you know, really well and so well, that's all a blessing.
Nancy McClelland: In and of itself.
Questian Telka: So it really is. Yeah. And I, it's hard [00:18:00] to imagine for me how difficult it is when it's, it's just like when someone is going through it and there's so much when, when I can't even try the amount of difficulty that I have had to try and manage. And then also if it was contentious with my ex, like I, I, it's like that just takes it to a whole other level. But yeah, I mean, custody schedules, like trying to work when kids are sick and it's, you know, um, [00:18:30] it's, it's complicated and it's difficult.
Nancy McClelland: So I want to do an exercise with you. Um, we've talked about this ahead of time, but I know you don't know all of the questions that I'm going to ask you and all the exercises we're going to do. So I'm, I'm asking you to do this. I'm also asking the audience who's listening to do this with us. Okay. So play along at home, whether you're on a walk or you're making dinner or whatever [00:19:00] it is you're doing. So this is a, um, the first of our radical acceptance exercises. This is a very straightforward and, and common one. If you go to a therapist who practices DBT. So you ask, and I would like you to think about it, what is something that you keep wishing were different? Like when you're not in the moment when you keep saying, if only this, when you're struggling with ruminating or wishing that things were different [00:19:30] than they are or that, you know, historically things could have been different. What is that? What is one of those things?
Questian Telka: I think there's, oh, there's a lot, right? Like, there's a lot I could, I could make a list like five miles long, but I think.
Nancy McClelland: Well, when you, when.
Questian Telka: You one thing.
Nancy McClelland: When you find yourself over and over and over again coming back to something that you keep ruminating and, and wishing, if only this, like what, what's the biggest thing?
Questian Telka: Well, I kind of touched on it a few minutes [00:20:00] ago, but for me, it's just I wish that I would have chosen a partner that fit me better, you know? And that's so hard to because you're young when you yeah, you know, you're young when you when you find that person and you don't. At the time, I didn't even fully understand myself. And as I said, he's a great person. He's just not my person. Right. So that I keep going back to that, like, oh, what if I would have, you know, if I would have known these things that I know now? [00:20:30] Or what if I would have gone through this different process and been more methodical about it or, or whatnot.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah, so that's the biggest thing. Okay, so let's sit with that for just a second. You're wishing that you could go back in time and make a different choice. Yeah. You can't though, right? You can't go back in time.
Questian Telka: So not yet.
Nancy McClelland: Not yet. Well, yeah.
Questian Telka: I mean, I never could have imagined that we would have AI in the form that we have it today. [00:21:00] So maybe there'll be a time machine at some point.
Nancy McClelland: As of today, we can't go back in history and change that. So it is what it is. You chose who you chose. You can't change that. You may not like it, but this is where you are now. What changes in your mind when you stop arguing with reality? What changes for you when you when you say sigh [00:21:30] no. Come on brain, you can't go back there. It is what it is. Let's accept it and stop trying to pretend that we can change historical reality.
Questian Telka: You finally for me and it's, you know, it's great the the way that the term radical acceptance because what it really does is it, it leads you to acceptance, which ultimately gives me a lot more peace. It's like, okay, like you said, it is [00:22:00] what it is. I can't this is beyond my control. I can't change it. So.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, I love that.
Questian Telka: What can I do?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we focus on what we can control rather than what we can't, it can be totally liberating. I mean, I struggle a ton with this. I'm a ruminator. I'm somebody who's just constantly like. And I'm not trying. Yeah, we both are. I think it's pretty common. Um, I, you know, I'll catch myself. I'm, I'm doing dishes or something and then [00:22:30] I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm still going over this conversation I had with a boss I had, you know, 30 years ago or more. And what if, what if I had come back to her and said this and I'm like, I'll catch myself doing it. And I'll be like, Nancy, what are you doing? And when I catch myself and I stop arguing with that reality, it's liberating. Right? Like for you, you talk about that sense of peace, [00:23:00] and then you can take that energy that your brain is spinning, like fighting this, this existence, this truth of life. And we can channel it into something way more useful. Like, you know, coping mechanisms, compartmentalizing like you were describing or self-care. Because when we fight reality, and this is again, something I have to remind myself of a lot when I fight reality, it does not change [00:23:30] reality. It actually gets me stuck in a way that acceptance sets me free.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I think that it is. So I do the same thing. I, I tend to ruminate. And I think what's important is that for me, that's how I process. But it's like, it's okay to ruminate. What I think is not okay is exactly what we're talking about, which is going back and saying to yourself, well, what if I did this? And what if I did this? And what if I did [00:24:00] this? But, but like going through and thinking through, thinking it through and like remembering it, that's what helps me process. But it doesn't help to sit there and think of all the ways that I would change the behavior that I already had, the choices that I already made.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, talk to us also about, um, some of the, you know, we talked about the word dialectical and these opposing forces. I, I know that you're also dealing [00:24:30] with these opposing forces internally. Um, because, um, one of the people that you WhatsApp when you're, when this is happening to you. So, um, some examples that you've shared with me and I'd like for you to, to talk about and share some more with us would be showing up on stage, but you know, looking like I have it all together and I'm going to teach you and then like privately, [00:25:00] you're just breaking. You're just.
Questian Telka: Oh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Um, yeah. And like being, being publicly the strong one so that your children don't necessarily have to watch your pain and suffering is another example. And talk to us about those things. And also the others that you know, are you're struggling with simultaneously.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So when I think about, so the first [00:25:30] thing that you mentioned was, you know, showing up on stage. And I think this is if I'm just being like raw and honest is part of the reason that we're talking about this is because you and I were talking about it and I was like, well, divorce rates are high. So there have to be so many other women in our industry that are doing that are going through this at the same time. And I'm like, I want to I wanted to share it and I wanted to talk about it because I do feel [00:26:00] like often instead, what I do, what people tend to do is like, okay, I have to show up as, and I want to show up as the best version of myself. But then there are also these internal struggles. And so it's just honestly just accepting that it it is that way and taking that time and saying, okay, what do I really want? Right? Like I need to look into the future a little bit and say it's like, what are my goals? Where am I trying to get to? And that's what I try. I try to focus [00:26:30] on that. And that does tend to help me compartmentalize a little bit when I am needing to do something that's it's like, this is important to me. Doing the podcast is important to me. Showing up on stage and speaking and teaching and mentoring are important to me. And so it's like.
Nancy McClelland: But you said to me, you also said, but I don't want to pretend. I want to show up in these spaces. And I want to be a resource for people, but [00:27:00] I do not want to pretend like I have it all figured out and that I'm together. Like it because that's there's a big cognitive dissonance for you personally, but also it's not helpful to other people when they think, oh, that person over there has it all together. And you're like, no, I, but I don't know, I don't know.
Questian Telka: And what's interesting is if somebody would, if somebody comes up and, and asks me or talks to me about it in person, like I'm very open about it. I remember when I was, [00:27:30] um, on the advisory amplified tour, I also had, so in the fall I lost. I have to pause because it makes me upset. I lost someone very close to me. And when I went to that tour, um, I saw Valerie there actually. And so and she came up and she asked me how I was doing. And rather than saying, hey, I'm fine and I'm good, I said, my, you know, this very close family member of mine [00:28:00] who is a, is my stepdad, who was a second father to me is dying. And, you know, and she was so warm and compassionate and lovely about it. And it's like those just being real and, and sharing those moments. And her being compassionate was, um, incredible. And, you know, I think it's important to tell other people what you're going through and what's happening so that they feel comfortable sharing. So it's not, you're [00:28:30] not always in these professional spaces where you feel like you have to be somebody that you aren't at that moment.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. The session that I'm going to be teaching in June at scaling New Heights is vulnerability as a strength, and we're going to have a panel of people who are going to open up about some of that stuff. And we're going to what you just said is perfect. I mean, and it gives other people permission to say, oh, oh, wait, we're [00:29:00] not just saying I'm fine.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I'm not just saying I'm fine. And one of the things that I did that I don't like about certain professional environments is that this idea that we aren't human beings, that we, you know, that we're, you have to show up to work and be a robot and you can't have feelings and you can't have emotions. And I, you know, when I was young, people used to say to me, you're so emotional and I am. And it used to really offend me. And, um, [00:29:30] now I'm like, thank you. You're right.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Questian Telka: And it is my strength. This is my strength. You know, this is so, um.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, God, I love that when someone says you're so emotional, you say, thank you. Oh, yeah, I gotta use that one. That's beautiful. Um, I want to ask about your work situation, whether you've what are some of the thoughts you've had about going Back [00:30:00] into the W-2 world and working for another company or running your continuing to run your own company or, um, taking on freelance work with colleagues. Like what kinds of. I know this isn't all sorted out, but I know you have a world of, of thoughts, probably some of them conflicting about what you're doing there. Yeah.
Questian Telka: All conflicting because there's, you know, there's stability in working as a W-2 [00:30:30] employee that I don't have in my life right now. And so it's like that is often alluring and appealing. And, you know, then that is also not just a symptom of this situation or personal situation in my life, but also like what's happening in the nonprofit sector professionally. Right? And so it's like, you know, there are also my goals and the things that I want to accomplish and kind of where I want to go from here. Like, what [00:31:00] are my next what's my next phase? And so it's like working through figuring out like, how can I find the stability that I'm looking for both emotionally and professionally, and then also fulfill kind of the goals and, and dreams that I have too. And so it's like, I can't say that I have it all figured out. I kind of, I'm getting close. But yeah, I mean, I, when you said that some.
Nancy McClelland: I've gotten [00:31:30] some texts that have been like, I'm definitely doing this. And then a couple weeks later, okay, I figured it out. I'm definitely doing opposite thing. And then a couple of weeks later. So like, it's, it's, it's getting more clear.
Questian Telka: Yeah, it's getting more clear, but it's also like working that through. And then when I get to the point where it's decided like I want of one piece of advice I always give to people that is, is to trust your instincts [00:32:00] to to trust your gut. And so my gut hasn't told me that the thing in front of me that I've made, that I'm trying to decide on, like I has not told me this is what you need and should do. Like I'm still quite not, not quite there yet. And so, um, you know, because I, I think about, you know, I love my clients, I would love to continue working with them and kind of grow my business. But then I also loved working in a nonprofit when I did. And so it's like, there's a part of me that's [00:32:30] like, oh, you know, I loved being able to really go deep in one area. So, um, you know.
Nancy McClelland: So it's not just about the instability and fears of breadwinning and such. It's also about like, which environment, if I, if I don't have, if I don't necessarily have that support at home. Um, what about working in an environment where I do have colleagues surrounding me.
Questian Telka: Yeah, and I miss. I do, I will say I miss that I, I'm sure [00:33:00] there are a lot of small. Smaller firm owners that can that feel that too. Like I, I, I'm pretty introverted, but I do love having somebody to bounce ideas off of. That's why you and I work so amazingly well together. It's like you pull all these creative ideas out of me, which is the catalyst for the podcast, right? So. Oh, that's.
Nancy McClelland: Such a nice thing for you to say. Oh. Um, well, let's do, [00:33:30] let's do another exercise.
Questian Telka: Okay.
Nancy McClelland: Um, and again, listeners, please mentally do this with us. It can be kind of emotional. I want you to just like allow any disappointment or sadness or grief to just arise within you. And, and we're just going to look at it, right? Because we're going to move through this. So let's think about this particular area. What is in your control and what [00:34:00] isn't in your control. And, and start going through like what? Um, and this can be about any of the things that you've talked about, but I think it would be most interesting to hear like job wise, you know, like what is in your control, what's not in your control?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, I mean, if I'm thinking about my firm, what's not in my control is when, you know, you have a president or your, your government decides to pull funding from your, your [00:34:30] client, your primary, you know, your clients, many of your clients, primary funding sources like completely not in my control. Right? Yeah, absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: Whatsoever. Even a little bit in your control. Okay.
Questian Telka: Right. And it's like, not, you can't really prepare for that unless you work with, you know, many different if you're a generalist or you have multiple niches, it's like if you have. And there are people who can definitely resonate like this, this, this has to be familiar because there [00:35:00] are so many people who niche in a certain area. And it's like if the real estate, it's.
Nancy McClelland: It's definitely encouraged.
Questian Telka: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's what's in my or what is that is.
Nancy McClelland: What's not.
Questian Telka: In your, in my control.
Nancy McClelland: What is something that is in your control?
Questian Telka: Well, what I do about it, how I, you know, how I manage my emotions, how I choose to react. You know, [00:35:30] I could throw my hands up and cry and say, place all this blame and be angry that this thing has happened. And like, for a moment, of course I felt that way more so angry for my clients than for myself and for the people that they, the missions that they support and all of the, all of the, you know, all these incredible services that they offer communities that are underserved. Yeah. And so it's like, certainly I [00:36:00] let that, I let those feelings happen. But then, you know, it's like, I can't change it, but what can I do instead? So, um, that's what's in my control.
Nancy McClelland: And then what are some examples of things that you are either doing right now or might need to do that are painful, but necessary?
Questian Telka: Well, I definitely had to completely, you know, I'm like restructuring [00:36:30] and I've had to like pull back. I had to like, really think about focusing on my clients and their needs because they have a lot more needs for me right now than they would typically. And so. I like to speak and I like to teach. And so not submitting to speak at conferences as much because I need to focus in this area instead to help them get through it and to help [00:37:00] myself get through it. And also in that sense too, preparing for a loss of revenue, potentially. So cutting back expenses, like making decisions about my team. Those are painful but necessary decisions that have to happen.
Nancy McClelland: I thank you so much for going through this with me. It's just it's, it's really helpful for me to watch you going through it and think about it for myself, um, as well as I, I hope it's helpful for you and for [00:37:30] our listeners. Yeah. I think it's so important to acknowledge, um, and it's a hard thing to do, but I feel like this exercise helps to acknowledge that life can be worth living even when there is pain. And that when we imagine. In, you know, in your mind's eye, believing what you do not want to accept and rehearsing in your mind what you would do if you accepted what seems unacceptable. That [00:38:00] sounds like an insane thing to say out loud, but it's true. Like what? You look at the unacceptable. I like closing down my firm. Unacceptable. Okay. But what would you do if you accepted what seems unacceptable? And then you start acting in a way that's consistent with that. So like, we're not pretending to be happy, we're letting ourselves feel, but we picture what it will look like on the other side. Start acting as if we're already there. If that's a decision, [00:38:30] if that's the decision that you decide you might want to make, or if you're thinking about that as one of the possibilities, it's amazing, like how often we find that we can live life well even in the midst of tragedy. It's a very weird feeling, but it's true.
Questian Telka: Well, and in the moments where I feel like, you know, how am I? It's like, oh, am I going to be able to get through this? It's like I've gotten through really difficult things. Like I know [00:39:00] for a fact that I will get through it. And it's like, you just have to. That's something that you have to accept too. It's like I, and I will figure it out. Like that's kind of, it's funny because I should have that on a post-it on my, on my computer that, you know, like, I don't know what's going to happen right now, but I will figure it out. I always do. So it's just another one of those scenarios.
Nancy McClelland: Is what it.
Questian Telka: Is. So that's what it is.
Nancy McClelland: That same COO, Claire Karczmar. Oh, I miss her so much. I haven't talked [00:39:30] to her for a while. She, uh, had a saying that was on a bulletin board above her desk, which was a Winston Churchill quote that said, if you're going through hell.
Questian Telka: Keep on going.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: I know that one, too.
Nancy McClelland: She was wise beyond her years. She really was. So talk with us about, um, building this new identity. Right. Like before the old paperwork is done. Uh, I know you've felt like you've described feeling sort of empowered and wrecked [00:40:00] at the same time, right? You're still going through it, but you're not waiting until this is all said and done before you, before you, before you rebuild, right? Like you're, you're. Yeah. It's like the ashes of the Chicago Fire, you know, in the very next week, while they're carting the ashes away, they're starting to reconstruct talk about this, um, empowerment at building this new identity and what it's [00:40:30] like doing that in the middle of all of this.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, and I think I said this to you when we were talking about this episode, that it, it is, you know, the whole thing is raw and it's feeling unsettled. And there it's definitely not all rainbows there. Like, you know, only some rainbows, you know, it's, it's, it's dark and it can be really complicated and a lot of differing emotions as that's what we're talking about. And [00:41:00] your point about rebuilding, and I'm sure I know like this is specific to this one topic, but it's like, I'm guessing you have situations in your life too, where when you rebuild, you don't wait for things to be settled. So it was like I was emotionally rebuilding. As I was thinking through the decision to get divorced in the first place. And so it's like, that's, that's always happening. And I don't think that that it's [00:41:30] ever, at least for myself, I can only speak for myself that it's ever like, okay, I have to have this thing done before I start thinking about and making plans for what comes next.
Nancy McClelland: Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think that part of part of acceptance, um, that I think is important to remember is that acceptance doesn't necessarily mean that you think it's okay. Like [00:42:00] you were going, this is not, this is not the relationship for me. This is not my person. Right? And, and I haven't found that person yet. And I, and I don't know what is going to come next. And this is all terrifying, but I know for myself that this is not the person that I am in this relationship is not the person that I want to be. And so you could accept that that relationship wasn't okay. Um, at [00:42:30] the same time that you're like, yeah, but it is, it, it is. And you didn't condone or give up. You didn't fight that reality trying to pretend or wish you weren't trying to like, make your relationship work the way that you wanted it to work. You were like, no.
Questian Telka: Well, I did that for a while.
Nancy McClelland: Did you?
Questian Telka: How long did that.
Nancy McClelland: How long did did you. Because here's another example of fighting reality.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Right. Trying to pretend or wish that it [00:43:00] were different. How long were you in that spot where you tried to make it something that it wasn't?
Questian Telka: Well, it's hard because, you know, it's it's a big decision. And it's there's so many there are so many pieces like children, you know, and for me, kids were a big part of that decision. And then, you know, professionally, can I support myself? And so there were a lot of questions that I was asking myself or things that I was thinking about. And so it was, I [00:43:30] mean, it was a long time. Like, I couldn't tell you the number of years, but it was.
Nancy McClelland: You're talking about years, though. Years where you were fighting the I, I want this to be different and I'm just going to try to change it. Um, not accepting the reality that you eventually discover.
Questian Telka: And, you know, for some people that may be different, like they may have a different view or philosophy on, on, you know, being married. And I'm not, I'm not here to tell anyone how it should be or to judge it [00:44:00] or whatever. But this was, you know, that was how I personally managed it. Right. Some people would, everybody would would do different things or have different ideas about what the right thing to do was. But I also, I'm someone who's like, I'm going to make my best effort, right? So that was part of it was, you know, you and I are both perfectionists. And it was like, well, I'm gonna, I have to, I have to give it my all before I can say, okay.
Nancy McClelland: That's a really good point. [00:44:30]
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So recognizing the difference between trying to change reality and accept it, there's a very blurry line there when you're like, no, I'm going, I am going to try to change reality. I'm going to try to make it better. I'm going to give it my best effort. And at some point, you have to recognize at least you were able to recognize, no, I have to accept that this isn't going to work. I'm in a difficult spot. I can't change it right now. I'm going to stop wasting energy wishing [00:45:00] it were different and trying to make it different so that I can focus on my next step.
Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you said that perfectly.
Nancy McClelland: Oh thank you, I appreciate that. So, um, the big fear, the breadwinner energy. What if revenue drops? What if custody shifts? Should I get a W2 job for stability? But then you use flexibility and like what? Oh my God. It's overwhelming. [00:45:30]
Questian Telka: Well, you said like the big fear and then you named a couple of them. And like, literally those were the two scariest things to me. And they both happened.
Nancy McClelland: Okay.
Questian Telka: It was like, good, you know?
Nancy McClelland: Great. So talk to us. What is security? How, how do you even begin to use radical acceptance or any of the other tools in your mental health toolbox to, um, look at those fears? You know, we talk [00:46:00] about doing it anyway, but how do you do it anyway when what you've always looked at as security is no longer your security?
Questian Telka: Well, something that you and I both lean into a lot and we talk about a lot, and it's why we started the podcast in the first place. Is your support system. Professional network, personal network, family, friends. You know, like, I am so thankful that I have a huge [00:46:30] support system. And so that is like number one for me is, is my network. And, um, you know, just security is being able to adapt or, um, you know, um, looking at your earning capacity. And one thing that's unfortunate I, it's like, um, one of the other things is, is, you know, resilience, right? [00:47:00] And unfortunately, I think resilience is often it's not always and it can be built without adversity, but it is often built out of adversity. And, you know.
Nancy McClelland: I've had plenty of that.
Questian Telka: I've had plenty of practice. Yeah, lots of practice. And so, um, you know, I've maybe that's what gave me the courage to, to do it in the first place.
Nancy McClelland: You know, that's actually a really good point. I don't feel like that has come up in conversation before. Yeah, I, I [00:47:30] really, I love the fact that maybe because you developed this resilience, you realized that even though you don't have all the answers yet, that's okay. Right? Like you don't need certainty. You need, like you said earlier, I will figure it out. Yeah. I mean, I guess in a sense, that's just like. Learning to tolerate the discomfort of not being certain.
Questian Telka: Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, I've definitely had to get used to that. [00:48:00] It's like several years worth of that. So it's like, um, you can crave stability and you know, we've lost flexibility if you're transitioning career wise and yeah. Um, and I, well, and you've, you're forced to not know the answer yet and to still keep moving forward.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What? In some case, you're like, what are my what are my choices? But also you're not trapped. Like you're choosing to move forward [00:48:30] here. You have agency.
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right. I love that you have agency. That's yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Again, well, that is the thing that has helped me the most when I've been in really, really, really rotten situations is, is I, I have unfortunately, I've felt very trapped at various times in my life, um, sometimes through something I've created myself. Um.
Questian Telka: Same.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. And when I feel trapped, my, my go to is to remember [00:49:00] I can burn it all down like I, I can, I, you know, it's, it's when I remind myself that I can walk away from something or give it up or burn it down or whatever, whatever it is. When I remind myself that that's an option, I go, oh, wait a minute, but I want to stay here. I have agency, I am choosing this. This is an active decision on my. I'm not trapped. I'm not trapped. And that was exactly. That's what you did in this [00:49:30] in this situation. You were like, I, I have, I have agency, I have resilience, I have a network, I can do this.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I think so often that we lose sight of the fact that we really do have agency. It's like, well, I can't do this and I can't do that. And this is not a choice and this is not an option. And it's like, if you take a step back and look at it like it's, it's always an option. Like there may be a, like a, I don't want to say consequence. What's, what's the word I'm looking [00:50:00] for? There may be like a particular fallout from a choice, but it could also be something positive too. And so, um, we do have choices to make and, um, it's, that's empowering. Yeah. You really recognize that.
Nancy McClelland: That's so true. That's so true. Can we do one more exercise before we.
Questian Telka: Sure. I love this. I feel like, um, I'm having like, my, you know, I'm getting my my free therapy.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, well, [00:50:30] I am not a therapist, but I have a really good one. And she's taught me a lot of, of tricks for my toolbox. All right. So for 30s, I want you to let yourself to fully imagine the worst case scenario, right? Revenue drops, custody shifts. You take a W-2 job, and it turns out to be crap, and you never have any flexibility. Like [00:51:00] feel all of this discomfort and this fear without solving it. Whatever. Whatever your worst case scenario would be. Imagine it all right now, and I know this is really weird for a podcast to have this much blank time, but you're not going to be able to do this. If we're talking. So I really am going to time.
Questian Telka: Are you really?
Nancy McClelland: I really am. I'm going to make this happen. Maybe I'll make it 20 30s. Yeah, a really long time. Although it's so funny because, you [00:51:30] know, I do, um, I do a lot of webinars and continuing education and that kind of thing. And, um, and one of the things that we're, that we've learned to do is to like, give people time and silence while they're writing something down or thinking through something. If you've asked them to do an exercise. And one of the things that my colleagues and I have always, always end up discussing is that if you give a group one minute to complete an exercise, it will feel like eight seconds to them, [00:52:00] but it's going to feel like four hours to you.
Questian Telka: Of course. Always. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: All right. If you. So we're doing 30s. We're we're a match. Fully imagining the worst case scenario.
Questian Telka: I'm [00:52:30] already uncomfortable.
Nancy McClelland: You're supposed to be doing the work. All right, that was close enough. We made it 23 seconds.
Questian Telka: All right. How long did.
Nancy McClelland: We make it? That was 23 seconds.
Questian Telka: Oh, that was pretty good. Okay.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah, you did a good job. All right, so did you fully imagine your worst case scenario?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, and this is actually really easy for me because I'm good at that.
Nancy McClelland: All right. That's not the point I'm trying to make here. But but. Oh okay. [00:53:00] That's handy. Okay. So now next part of the exercise is the thing that you just imagined. Is it happening right now?
Questian Telka: No.
Nancy McClelland: All right. What is actually true right now. And then you go and you look at what's actually happening right now. Go ahead. Take a moment.
Questian Telka: No, I was I wasn't going to answer it exactly, but I was going to say that, um, I mean, I think this is a great exercise. It is [00:53:30] something that I do naturally.
Nancy McClelland: Which because you imagine, because you tend to imagine the worst case scenario.
Questian Telka: Well, I think I'm a pretty positive person, but this is how I this doing exercises like this is how I prepare myself for what may bring discomfort in the future.
Nancy McClelland: Got it, got it. Well, I mean, it is it's an exercise that builds something that's called distress tolerance, um, which is [00:54:00] like a core radical acceptance skill. If you can learn, if you can imagine the worst thing and sit with how awful that is and then say, but is this happening right now? You're like, oh, no, it's not. No it's not. And actually the chances of the worst case happening are pretty low. And also, I will live through it, which I think is the lesson that you're.
Questian Telka: So what you're trying to tell me is that I'm already doing it naturally. So I get a gold star.
Nancy McClelland: You get a gold star. Ta [00:54:30] da!
Questian Telka: Ta da!
Nancy McClelland: I'm building distress tolerance. Naturally. Oh, good one. Good. Ta da! All right, so let's give the women listening. Actually, I'm going to say the people listening because I hope that there are men that listen to this podcast as well. Please share some takeaways from your journey through this divorce process.
Questian Telka: Um, [00:55:00] this, you know, this concept of radical acceptance is a muscle that needs to be Exercised. So working through this accepting, you know, what's the quote like? I can't remember it.
Nancy McClelland: The give me the courage to change. Yeah. To accept. I have to remember how that one goes. That should have been our ending quote here. I know the courage to [00:55:30] accept. I have to look this one up to accept the wisdom, to know the difference I know is how it ends. Yeah, change the things I can. Accept what I can't and the wisdom to know the difference.
Questian Telka: That's. I can't believe you just rattled that off.
Nancy McClelland: I it's not exactly right. You saved me. Um.
Questian Telka: Well, and I think in a, in practical terms, career wise, um, know your earning power, right? Know your earning power, your numbers where you are financially. That's [00:56:00] a huge piece of advice. Like always, always do that.
Nancy McClelland: Um, because that gives you the the confidence to know that you'll get through it and also to, you know, keep an eye on what to actually know what the worst case scenario could look like.
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right. Um, don't outsource your financial awareness.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. [00:56:30] Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Questian Telka: And I mean, what is the there are, there are classes that we teach that have been taught at conferences for. And I can't remember the term for like, what happens if your firm is in an emergency?
Nancy McClelland: Oh yeah. Situation. Jennifer Diamond teaches a really good course. It used to be called, um, I'm dead now. What? But I think, uh, she decided to [00:57:00] change it. It's a contingency plan.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Contingency plan. So build optionality before you need it. Have contingencies. Think. Think about them. Think about. And this isn't just about divorce. This is just anything in life. You know, if you if you're a business owner in your career, like if there are certain situations that take place in your life, like how will you manage them and handle them? And you can't really know before. So yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So that's like a combination of, um, [00:57:30] using radical acceptance to figure out what your next step is going to be and plan for it.
Questian Telka: That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Like to actually. Yeah, I love that. Well, also, I just want to remind you because I know you can be kind of rough on yourself. Um, and I'm guessing some of the other listeners out there might be, might need this reminder as well. But no.
Questian Telka: Female accountants aren't hard on them, hard on themselves. What are you talking about? That never happens, right?
Nancy McClelland: Oh, well, I brought up one of my favorite poems [00:58:00] numerous times on the podcast Desiderata by Max Ehrmann. And in it, he says, many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. So to go back to that resilience that you were talking about and building a network before you need it. Um, also some really practical stuff. Try to eat well, exercise and rest. Connect with others.
Questian Telka: Um so important.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. Remember that. [00:58:30]
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right. And you know, something that I will tell people who are in this situation or might be in the future is, you know, my marriage ended, but I didn't. Yeah. And neither will anyone else.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. That was a pretty heavy conversation for a post tax season celebration. Ta da!
Questian Telka: Ta da!
Nancy McClelland: Uh, honestly, I just I feel like [00:59:00] I learned so much from you every time that we talk, but especially on a topic where I feel like I know a lot about divorce from the perspective of the child who went through it. I mean, you know, my my dad's been divorced twice and my mom's been divorced three times. And she actually won the award at her high school reunion for having been divorced the most times. Um, yeah, they gave her a mug. She [00:59:30] was really excited about it.
Questian Telka: Funny.
Nancy McClelland: She's so funny. She held the mug up as she was, like, accepting this award and said, gosh, well, you know, I guess this right here makes it all worth it.
Questian Telka: So, uh, I know where you said that was your mom.
Nancy McClelland: That was my mom. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Well, we know where you get your spicy from, don't we?
Nancy McClelland: Yes, this is true. There's no question about that one. There's no question about that one. Well, [01:00:00] as we wrap up, we would like to ask listeners to follow our LinkedIn page for the She Counts podcast and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode The Big D radical Acceptance Work and Rebuilding in real Time. What are two completely opposing emotions that you have felt simultaneously in your life?
Questian Telka: Such a good question. Um, and before we sign [01:00:30] off, we like to leave you all with a quote. And today it's going to be mine. I'm grieving. I'm relieved. I'm scared and I'm strong. And none of that cancels the other. And I am just learning to let it all be true.
Nancy McClelland: It's really beautiful. Thanks everyone for being here with us on she Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. [01:01:00]
Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Questian Telka: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the lovely show notes that Nancy makes for us every week.
Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe [01:01:30] and leave us a review because it really helps other people find the podcast. And please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Questian Telka: And we'll see everyone again in two weeks.