There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And Melissa Miller Ferguson.
Nancy McClelland: Wait, what? Where's Questian?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: She couldn't make it today and asked if I'd step in since she knows this is a topic near and dear to my heart.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, [00:00:30] it sounds good to me. Let's do it.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: All right. In every episode, we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Special thanks to our season three sponsors Bill, Relay and Carbon. We're so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's [00:01:00] thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at. She Counts dot show.
Nancy McClelland: And if you want to support the podcast, the one thing that would make the biggest impact is to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Reviews really do help others find us.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Remember, you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit, and please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode [00:01:30] is called The Courage to be Nominated. Wanting it and dreading it. It's all about the mixed feelings surrounding the awards nomination cycle, how we all want that shiny trophy. But we struggle with feeling deserving, asking for nominations, or failing publicly.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We love launching each episode with a story, and Nancy's got one. It's the actual text thread of the WhatsApp that inspired this episode. [00:02:00]
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So what happened was last year, right around this time, the nominations for the top 100 ProAdvisor recipients had come out. So this was their always announced at scaling new heights. The recipients are are announced at scaling new heights, but the nominees are announced. Uh, I don't know, like about six weeks beforehand. So this text thread was just over a year ago between question and me. So Melissa, will you play the part [00:02:30] of question?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Sure thing. So congrats on your nomination. I'm so excited for you. I have no doubt you will be at the top of that list. I can relate to your post. I got a nomination for it too, and when I saw it, all I thought was, I don't deserve this. I'm not good enough. I don't know enough.
Nancy McClelland: Congratulations. But remember, it's not about winning the thing.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah, I know, but I am embarrassed to even share it because I know I won't [00:03:00] make the list. Maybe I should write that in my post.
Nancy McClelland: Atta girl. Now you're getting it. Oh my gosh, I have such a great idea. What about using this as a way to promote your imposter syndrome session at scaling?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: That's a great idea. I haven't posted about it yet. I'll write it tonight.
Nancy McClelland: I wasn't going to post about it at all for the same reason. And then I saw somebody post about theirs, and Misty and Krista were lifting them up, and I felt sad because they weren't lifting me up. [00:03:30] And then I realized I hadn't even given them the opportunity.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You know, that's very true.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Literally, not a single soul will see the final list of who wins and think, oh, of course. Question. And Nancy didn't win. I figured they wouldn't. You know, all this stuff is just about showing up. Showing up is so important. And if we don't show up, if no one shows up, then other people don't feel like they have reason to. But if people can be with us [00:04:00] as we walk through our own insecurities, it'll help give them permission to feel however they feel and lift themselves up anyway.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We need to talk about this on the podcast.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, we could literally start the episode with those words. As in, we're going to be really open with you about this topic because here's what happened to us.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I'm going to add that you inspired me to share my nomination when I write it. I wouldn't have done it if you didn't tell [00:04:30] me I should.
Nancy McClelland: Honestly, inspiring others is so much more important than getting the nomination. Your post will be about the true meaning behind getting these and sharing them. I want to see everyone shine because there are so many bright lights.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I love this conversation.
Nancy McClelland: And now we're back to being Melissa and Nancy. Yes we are. Ah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. End scene, end scene.
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: So [00:05:00] I love this conversation and the way you encourage question to share it anyway, even if it makes you uncomfortable. And I want to note that the same time that that conversation was happening, I was experiencing personally the sting of initially not making the list of finalists for top 100 in 2025.
Nancy McClelland: I remember that happening. And, um, I told you the same thing happened to me in 2024 because there was a glitch with the [00:05:30] application process and our points didn't get tallied correctly. And so I ended up getting left off the list in 2024. And I remember being really surprised. And so I reached out to Murph from Insightful Accountant and was like, hey, what's going on here? And he goes, oh no, it shows that you didn't submit. And I'm like, oh yes, I did. That is a very difficult application. I sure did submit and and luckily I had kept, um, record of, you know, the, [00:06:00] the answers that I had given in a lot of the situations. Um, and so they ended up adding me to the list of nominees, but it was right at the end, which is, you know, it's not in alphabetical order anymore. So people don't realize you're on there. Um, and then in 2025, something similar happened to you, but they didn't even get all of your points right.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: No, um, they allowed me because they could see that I had spent a significant amount of time in the [00:06:30] application. Okay. But they didn't get the application. Somehow they allowed me to use the points from 2020 for like 2024 application as the points for 2025. So like you, they added my name to the bottom of the list out of alphabetical order. Mhm. So I ended up in the list after the fact.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it's really it's really frustrating because, you know, you, you it's, it's extremely [00:07:00] it's a huge amount of work, right? Like that, that application. And actually most applications, I'm going to say most applications are just a massive amount of work. And so when you see somebody pop up on a list and be like, oh, I'm so surprised. Chances are that that might not be 100% true because the work that you have to go through, there are some exceptions. Like I was really excited because I made the Forbes Best in state list this year. And that one, they don't even tell you you're in the running like nobody [00:07:30] tells you anything. You just get an email on April 16th that says congratulations. So there are some out there where it it has nothing. It's just people who are in the know are, are voting and making that decision. And you don't have anything to do with it. But most of the ones, you actually have to do a huge amount of work for the application process. And in the case of the insightful accountant one, um, you actually have to like keep track of all of your continuing education throughout the course [00:08:00] of the year and enter that on it. So it's not just a huge amount of work when you're actually applying, it's actually a huge amount of work kind of throughout the course of the year to track that stuff. So I am really proud of both of us for being brave and, and following up with them and asking that question and, you know, finding out it was a system glitch rather than a failure on our part.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I am too. And congratulations to you for the, uh, Forbes best [00:08:30] in state this year.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I've been a little nervous to share that one, because it turns out Forbes charges you in order to use their logo and the name of the, the um, award. If you post anything like on your website or on your business LinkedIn account and everything. And I was really surprised about that. So I'm kind of waiting to figure out how that works exactly before I tell people about it, which is kind [00:09:00] of a really weird thing.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I knew that you, I knew that you had said that, you know, they had some limitations. And so I did do some research before we recorded.
Nancy McClelland: Are you serious?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Just to see whether they say it anywhere. So that can we even talk about. It was a thought I had. And they have it. You know, your name is out there on a website. It's you know, it's a short little blurb, but you're out there. So I figured it was okay to talk about.
Nancy McClelland: Well, that makes me really, really happy. [00:09:30] Thanks, Melissa. You're such a good friend. So this all just it. It really goes to show you that there's this, like, weird tension, right? Because you want recognition, but you fear rejection and you want visibility, but we fear judgment. And there's that whole like, I don't know, middle school energy of the popularity dynamics like that, it all makes me really, really, really uncomfortable. [00:10:00]
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Absolutely. Um, how did you know that? I was just talking about this with my therapist today.
Nancy McClelland: No way. Are you serious?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Literally, I literally middle school energy and, you know, wanting to be popular when I was a kid was, like, really important to me. And it feels a little bit silly now, but I think there's, there's still a little bit of that maybe all in a lot of us, maybe not all of us, but in a lot of us. [00:10:30]
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I, I would actually be surprised if it's not in all of us because, you know, we don't, I feel like and, and again, this is personal, but I feel like we don't grow out of the people that we were when we were younger. We just grow into a different version of that person. And so there's always going to be like that concern about do they like me? And did I say the right thing? And am I wearing the right thing? And you know, as you [00:11:00] get older, you lose some of that concern. Um, but not all of it, I don't know, for me, I don't think that'll ever go away. And there's, there's a lot of that in these awards. Like you want, you want to, you want to have the shiny prize. You don't do the work. So you can get the gold star. My brother says you don't do the work so you can get the gold star. But gosh, it feels good to get that gold star. Um, but when there's like voting involved and you're asking people to vote for you, that middle school energy [00:11:30] totally comes back.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Oh, absolutely. And I know, I think it was last week. I you're you're on you're everywhere. So what do.
Nancy McClelland: You mean I'm everywhere?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You're on webinars and podcasts and all kinds of things. And I'm sure it was just last week I saw you on a podcast or no, no, I'm sorry, a webinar. And you were, um, talking about how sometimes you can't like apply or nominate yourself. You need to be nominated by someone else. [00:12:00]
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: So you know, you want to apply for this award, but you can't nominate yourself. Yeah. Not only do you have to ask for votes, or you have to ask someone else to nominate you.
Nancy McClelland: To nominate you. Gosh, that's one of the most uncomfortable things in the entire world. And our goal here is to normalize it, right? Like we have in the past on the podcast with imposter ism, this is a common and natural way to be. This is not a personal flaw. You do [00:12:30] not need to beat yourself up for undervaluing yourself, right? Because like that's a vicious cycle, but you do need to ask for what you want. You know, aside from those occasional out of the blue awards, you need to apply for these awards. Um, I just I think it's a healthy thing to do because it stretches us to do something that is uncomfortable and every time we're doing it anyway, you know, my mantra on that one, [00:13:00] every time we push through that fear and we do it anyway, like asking somebody to nominate us, we're we're doing what I call flexing the ask muscle. Um, which I think I got from Kate Johnson. Yeah. Oh, nice. So yeah. So what's happening underneath? Let's, let's break this down a little bit.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: So fear of public losing.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Nobody wants to be a loser.
Nancy McClelland: Nobody wants to be a loser. Nobody wants [00:13:30] to be a loser. And so if you if you're applying for this in the first place, right, like if you're if you're putting yourself out there, then like with questions in my text thread that we were reading earlier. She was like, yeah, but I don't want to tell anybody I got nominated because I'm sure I won't end up being one of the top 100 recipients, right?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And you know, my feeling on that is I applied for top 100 for, I think at least five years before [00:14:00] I made the top 100.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: But I always kind of felt like a winner because I was in the top 300 or 400, whatever the finalist list is. I mean, there are how many tens of thousands of ProAdvisor in the world. That's a really good point. Elite few who make that finalist list.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I think that's a.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Really if you don't make the finalist list, you applied.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You're already [00:14:30] doing better than at least 10,000 other people who don't bother.
Nancy McClelland: I totally agree with you. That was something that we talked about in ask a CPA. You know, I was trying to get everybody you're a member of Asca, a CPA. You know, I was trying to get everybody to nominate each other and then to we like had a study hall where we all, um, put ourselves on mute and worked on our applications together and we could ask each other questions if we needed help. Um, and, you know, a bunch of people were just like, oh, I thought I was just coming here to help [00:15:00] other people. I didn't realize I was going to have to be applying myself like I don't deserve this. Um, and it was a really, really scary thing, but we flexed our ask muscle and we, I think it was actually, I know who it was. It was Veronica Fry. She was the one who said in that first nomination meeting, and I think you were in that one. She said, um, and actually it was really interesting because it was like the first time she ever, um, voiced up [00:15:30] in one of these sessions. She's very introverted and quiet. She was like, I'm just gonna say this in case I'm not the only one, but is anybody else in here feel like an imposter? And everybody's hand went up.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: All the time.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, but imposter feelings do not represent lack of qualification, imposter feelings. They're just a natural. It's our [00:16:00] lizard brain trying to keep us safe.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And also, we want to be recognized for our accomplishments. I mean, we work hard and it feels really good to be noticed.
Nancy McClelland: It totally does. Yeah. You know, you spend ten years writing a blog. Ten years. It feels good to get an award for it. You bust your butt on something. It's nice. It feels amazing that something you built made it out there into the world and and helped others. Um, like, do [00:16:30] you remember, uh, the top ten? No, it was the top 50 women in accounting. Um, that ignition does every other year. Yeah, I, I got that during the pandemic because of the work that I did educating colleagues in bookkeeping buds, um, which we're also both in together and which is how, you know, question and I met as well, um, and small business owners during the pandemic. And I am always going to feel proud of that one. Like the top 50 women in accounting [00:17:00] always goes on my like list of bullet points because it is based very much on this labor of love that I did during the pandemic.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Absolutely. You know, jealousy is so real and.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Natural and something I feel yes, more often than I care to admit. But, um.
Nancy McClelland: Well, we're admitting [00:17:30] it right now because that's, this is the real talk podcast for women in accounting. If we don't admit that we're jealous of each other, somebody asked that question at the when we recorded Live at Bridging the Gap last year. That was one of the questions that was submitted anonymously by the audience. And I got like really emotional about it because question and I, we both, you know, we struggle with that.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. We, um, we want other people to do well. We love our colleagues and friends, but [00:18:00] we also want a little bit for ourselves. Yeah. So, and, you know, it's, it's natural and not something to be ashamed of as long as, you know, you see it for what it is that you want something that someone else has.
Nancy McClelland: That's what my therapist always says. If I if I'm worried about being jealous about someone, she'll say, do you want what they have? And I'll say, yeah. And she'll be like, well, that's just a fact. You want what they have? Like that's the definition. Do you remember when I did [00:18:30] that? Um, um, I did a post, uh, a couple years ago. Financial Sense had a top 30 accounting and bookkeeping firm owners to follow. Thing, and I was so excited when I opened it up. It didn't occur to me for a second that I might be on there. When I opened it up, it didn't, and I opened it and read it with enthusiasm because I was excited for the suggestions. And then I started seeing how many of the people on there were friends of mine and I was like, [00:19:00] oh my God, I feel really cool because like, I'm friends with all these top voices that feels that feels pretty amazing. Right.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Right.
Nancy McClelland: And then I was like, wait, all my friends are on here, but I'm not. And so it went from being excited for the suggestions to feeling proud that I'm friends with these people. And then it turned to jealousy and shame. And when I was like, wait, why am I not on this list? Right.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And what are [00:19:30] they? What are my friends gonna think?
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: They don't see me on the list with them.
Nancy McClelland: Which goes back to the middle school thing.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: How embarrassing.
Nancy McClelland: How embarrassing. Oh my God, people are going to be like, Nancy's not on that list, right? And then.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Like natural lizard, you know, feeling it is, but.
Nancy McClelland: It totally is.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Um, but I made myself stop and take a few breaths and was like, come on, you were just thinking how lucky you [00:20:00] are to know so many incredible people in the industry and to be able to call them friends. And so I like, I righted that ship because then I was feeling not only like jealousy and shame because I wasn't on the list, but then I felt shame that I was jealous.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: You know what I'm talking about.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. Been there?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yep. Totally. So I righted that ship, and I went back to the article, and then I was totally rewarded because there I was at number 30 on the list. [00:20:30] So yeah, I think happy, jealous, proud should be a word, just like all one word. Happy? Yeah, totally.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: So sometimes it's the word itself that gets us rankled. Like 30 under 30 or 40 under 40, which I am way past.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Me too. Can we have a 50/50? How about that?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Maybe you and I.
Nancy McClelland: Can both be on that list.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: 55 at 55.
Nancy McClelland: Let's [00:21:00] do that one. That's what I got. Maybe we'll have a. She counts 55 at 55.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: All right. You have to hurry. I'm only here.
Nancy McClelland: We have to hurry. Well, let's see. My. My 54th birthday is in a few days. And your 55th is when.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: My 56th is.
Nancy McClelland: Oh. You're kidding. You're already 55. See? You look so much younger than I do that I always forget that you're older than I [00:21:30] am. I did.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You know, I color my hair.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. You color your hair with rainbow.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: That's why I look younger. Oh, I don't know you.
Nancy McClelland: Come on, you wear it well, you wear it well. You know Jackie Meier, who is a friend of ours who's in our theater of Public Speaking sisters group, she posted a year or two ago about how she couldn't decide whether to leave her 40 under 40 award listed on her LinkedIn profile [00:22:00] now that she's over 40, because it seems weird to be over 40 and have like a 40 under 40 award listed. But she was also like, I am I earned this like I'm, it feels weird not to put it up there.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And so I mean, everybody who wins one of those 30 under, 30, 40 under 40 awards is eventually going to age out. Outgrow it.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You should be proud of it no [00:22:30] matter what age you are.
Nancy McClelland: I totally agree, I totally agree, but still I'm going back to it honestly. I think we should create a 55/50 but below 60 award. How about that? Because that would suit me really well right about now. Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I think it's important to remember that awards are visibility events. They're not objective truth.
Nancy McClelland: I totally agree, that is a fantastic point. I mean, we want visibility for our [00:23:00] own career goals and vendors capitalize on that. And it's ideally a win win because it gets them in the spotlight as well. So you know ignition does their top 50 women in accounting. And they were all like, oh Ignition's top 50 women, Ignition's top 50 this and vote for this and da da da da. And every time you do that, you're using the vendor's name, right? And the same for insightful accountant. You know, when you go through and you vote for that. [00:23:30] What do you have to do on that last page? You have to mark like how many?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. All the vendors or all the sponsors. You. You have to. Well, no, even before that, all the vendors that you use in the in the application.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, I forgot about that.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: All the vendors that you use in your work. That's right. The points process. But I think that might even, you know, matter to the sponsors and the vendors who support [00:24:00] the top 100.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. But then when the people are going through and they're voting, they actually have to say, do you want to be on this mailing list? Do you want to be on that mailing for every single vendor or sponsor? Yeah. That, that sponsor slash vendors. Same thing in this case. And yeah, they have to like check Mark. Yes. Know already, uh, on their mailing list. Yes. Know already. So like, it's the whole reason that these sponsors and that these organizations are doing these Is that. Come on. [00:24:30] They're trying to make money. That's. It's we're in a capitalist society, right? So these are these are about vendor visibility. And they want us to highlight their names. Right. So ideally it's a win win because it's getting them in the spotlight. And we're getting in the spotlight and we want visibility, like I was saying, for our own career goals. But it doesn't mean that people who don't win, and I'm going to put win in quotes because most of these Murph from Insightful Accountant corrected [00:25:00] me recently. He said, we call them award recipients, not award winners, because award winners makes it sound like it was a popular vote or we pulled it out of a grab bag. You know, the voting part of this is less than 2% of the rest is this very complex point system for the top 100. Um, so when I say the word win, I'm going to use it in quotes there. It doesn't mean people who don't win aren't worthy because [00:25:30] like you were saying, a lot of people don't even apply for fear of publicly losing or because they don't think they're worthy. So showing up doesn't mean that you're claiming that you deserve to win. It's it's a participation, you know, not a verdict.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Right. I mean, we don't look at the people who didn't win and say, oh, what a loser.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We look at the winners or or recipients [00:26:00] and we celebrate them.
Nancy McClelland: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I would argue that the nominations in my life have been more important in many occasions than the wins themselves. Um, there's one example in particular, the AICPA global women to watch that. That was an amazing award. I was very, very honored to, to have received it. It, it made me feel wonderful. But actually it was when I announced that I had been nominated. Now I will point out I [00:26:30] asked a colleague to nominate me. Right. So that was the part that was the most nerve wracking, is that I had to write up some talking points for her and tell her that I wanted this. And so I'm admitting to somebody that I know that I want something, and I'm asking them to help me get this thing, this recognition that I want. And she nominated me, and she said such beautiful things in the nomination. And I received a copy of it. It was really nice. And I wrote [00:27:00] a long post on LinkedIn about how proud I was and what it meant to me. And I talked about the visibility part of it and how many global women to watch there are in my life who have inspired me to get to this point. And I was tagging them all and everybody started chiming in. And it was so it was such a beautiful moment in my life. And then I actually won. I was one of the the the many people named to [00:27:30] that list. And, um, like practically nobody said anything about that. But everybody chimed in on that nomination because it was in sharing that nomination and sharing the other important women in my life that we ended up having a conversation about it.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And I bet the AICPA was very happy about all the engagement that got.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, you know what? I'm sure you're.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Right about that. That's what it's about for them.
Nancy McClelland: That's what it's about. [00:28:00] That is absolutely what it's about. You're right.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. If we acknowledge that the reason most recognition programs exist is that it's this opportunity to increase the visibility of the companies giving the awards or sponsoring the awards. You know, it's yeah, it's a lot easier to blab your mouth about them because that's the whole point. So, you know, I that's something that we talked about in ask a CPA as well when we were doing this whole like, hey, let's nominate [00:28:30] each other and let's work together to encourage each other, have accountability over, you know, going through our applications. Because I was like, hey, you need to take that and that nomination and you need to plaster it all over social media, um, and tag people and, and sing it from the rooftops because that's what the, that's what the vendors really want from us. So, um, singing about the nomination is an important [00:29:00] thing and nobody's going to notice if you got nominated and didn't actually get the award. So I think we should all actually, you know what, let's just take a big deep breath. All right. So being visible, being visible creates permission for others. And you and I, I know, have talked about that a lot when we've been like getting our nails done before going [00:29:30] to a conference, I want I want you to share with us. What is that? What is that look like in your own experience? How does being visible. Because to me, that's a way to turn this whole award thing on its head and not worry about the fact that, you know, you, you look like, um, oh, look at me, look at me, look at me. That visibility, as Misty is always saying, um, [00:30:00] there's somebody out there that sees she's doing it. I can do it too. What's that look like for you?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You know, I think I've always kind of felt like if I can do it, you can too. Like, because I, I'm not a CPA, for instance. And. It's important for me to let others know that all they have to do is ask [00:30:30] or try. And I tell my kids this all the time. And you know, they're grown now. They're 20, 21 and 25. But when they want something that they're not sure they should ask for or not sure they're qualified for, like, you know, a job or a promotion or a scholar scholarship in this case, because, you know, my kids, two of them are in college. Um, I asked them, and I do this to them all the time. They're probably sick of it. But the worst that can happen, like you don't have that new job or that scholarship [00:31:00] right now. So if you go for it, what's the worst that can happen?
Nancy McClelland: I don't know, failing publicly, applying for it, and then having the whole world know that you didn't get it is kind of the worst thing that most of us can imagine. But it's not like that.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: No.
Nancy McClelland: You know, like it's not how it works, but that's what we think. Our brain goes to this like, ah, everybody will see that I'm a failure. But that's not how it works.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: But the [00:31:30] reality is, and I'm sure you've experienced this in our circle, in our profession, people are so kind.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Like we are surrounded by. I'm getting choked up. We're getting. We are surrounded by really kind people.
Nancy McClelland: I love that you're getting choked up about that. That is so beautiful because it's so true. I mean, that's one of the reasons you and I love going to conferences so much. Like we get to hang out with some of the truly, [00:32:00] like, most generous and considerate people.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And we are not rooting for each other to lose. I mean, we celebrate each other.
Nancy McClelland: Now I'm getting choked up.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Very well.
Nancy McClelland: We are not rooting for each other to lose. Oh my God, I love that. You're absolutely right.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: No. And so, you know, I asked my kids, what's the worst that can happen if you don't, you already don't have it. So if you try for it and you don't [00:32:30] get it, then you're just right back in the same place you. Yeah, yeah. No big deal. So go for it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it's totally true. Yeah. And, and when we're struggling with these sense, the sense of like, are we worthy enough to even apply? You know, once you, once you start getting these acknowledgments and becoming recipients of these awards, you know, there's someone out there [00:33:00] like you were back before you felt, you know, worthy enough to even apply and you want to reach them.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Oh, absolutely. Like, I know how I felt, you know, five, six, seven years ago when I thought the top 100, they're not talking about me. They're talking about people who have.
Nancy McClelland: Someone else.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Who have, you know, the people who have done it for years, who know more than I do, who have the, you know, [00:33:30] the letters behind their name. It's not me. And I don't remember what flipped the switch. It was probably being a member of the Bookkeeping Buds.
Nancy McClelland: And yeah, that's what it was for me.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: It was.
Nancy McClelland: For.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Others.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. For me, it was Cindy Schrader. Um, because I also applied, I think for three years before I made it onto the top 100 list for the [00:34:00] first time. And Cindy had said that she had applied many times before she made it onto the list. And that made me feel like you, you, you're failing upward, right? Like you have. You have to do this a few times if you're ever going to get there. Um, and she encouraged us to do it.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Right. And that just makes me think of, you know, I, there are still things I'm applying for that I haven't gotten yet.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: You know, I'm modeling that I. [00:34:30]
Nancy McClelland: I love that. That's fantastic. Well, we should be learning from our own, from our own podcast here as well. So. Yeah, that makes sense.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We should, we should walk the walk talk. Yes. Walk the talk, walk.
Nancy McClelland: Walk the walk and talk the talk.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Okay.
Nancy McClelland: I don't know, I think that's how it goes.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I don't know, they say all that stuff.
Nancy McClelland: So I, you know, I want to talk a little bit about about why asking [00:35:00] for support feels vulnerable.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Because it is.
Nancy McClelland: You remind me of Alicia Cats Pollack on, um, on a recent podcast, we did a crossover podcast with the unofficial QuickBooks, uh, QuickBooks online accountants podcast. And, uh, I think question asked her [00:35:30] why we undervalue ourselves. And she was like, why do you have a podcast? It's just human nature. Yeah. You're right. Okay. Why does it? I guess that's.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: That. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: It feels vulnerable.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Because saying it out loud.
Nancy McClelland: What's that?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We have to say it out loud.
Nancy McClelland: We do?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. I mean, anytime we flex, flex that ask muscle, we're we're opening ourselves up.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. It's totally [00:36:00] true.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: It's a little bit scary.
Nancy McClelland: It's a lot scary. It's a lot scary. I mean I mentioned earlier.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: It's worth.
Nancy McClelland: It. It is worth it. I mentioned earlier, um, Veronica Fries, uh, powerful story from that ask a CPA session where she was like, hey, am I the only one that has this feeling like an imposter here? And everybody raised their hand and it led to a discussion, um, of how we all like, felt unworthy of these awards and these nominations. [00:36:30] And, you know, that pervasive, who am I to think that I'm all wet big for my britches or something? And it, it, it led to a really important discussion about the importance of overcoming these feelings of imposter ism. And also, you know, the pride and the validation that comes from being recognized, even if you don't ultimately win the award. [00:37:00] And what came of that, as I'm sure you remember, because I was so stinkin excited about it.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I do remember.
Nancy McClelland: Do you remember what happened?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We Well, so we had that great. I want to call it the nomination frenzy, where we all asked people to nominate us and nominated each other. And 15 of the ask a CPA members ended up on the finalists list.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And, you [00:37:30] know, posted about it on social media and, you know, shared wins. And it was, it was really exciting and fun to see how happy everyone was. And Sandy Reinhart, who I don't know very well, but she has been doing this work for decades.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Had never applied before.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. She never even thought to apply. Melissa. She never even thought to apply before because [00:38:00] she was like you were saying about her.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Like, I thought they weren't talking about me.
Nancy McClelland: Exactly. Exactly. Her joy. My hair is standing on end right now when I think about it. Her joy in seeing her name be on that list of of nominated finalists like that totally made me cry. And it, it like kind of took off from there because like on LinkedIn, um, Veronica and Heather [00:38:30] di Bailey, Donna Reed and Deb Kilsheimer and you, you had one to all of your posts referenced needing that courage to do it anyway and ask for votes, even though it's uncomfortable. And I think that it's in the naming of that fear that we are just, we're simultaneously robbing it of that power that it has to hold us back. And we show others they are not alone. They [00:39:00] are not alone.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We're not alone. And we can do hard things.
Nancy McClelland: We can do hard things. Oh my God, I love it. That's something that you have told me. You tell your kids.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah, that's another mom ism of mine we can do.
Nancy McClelland: I love.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: It. What's the worst thing that can happen? And we can do hard things.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean it's bad.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Right? Kate Johnson is a great example. She.
Nancy McClelland: Oh. She is absolutely. [00:39:30]
Melissa Miller Ferguson: She's always trying to get people to use video in their bookkeeping promotion. Right. I don't like video. I don't like being on camera. Here I am.
Nancy McClelland: But here you are on camera right now.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Um, Kate uses a very scientific study that she has conducted herself to encourage us.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, yeah. Her scientific study, I remember her.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Adopted the scientific study herself.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: There hasn't been a single documented [00:40:00] case of someone dying from posting a video about bookkeeping. She's proven it.
Nancy McClelland: She's proven it. Yeah. Point being.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Discomfort is just an indication that we're in a new space that takes some getting used to, like public speaking.
Nancy McClelland: Like you are right now on this podcast. This is where the learning and the growth [00:40:30] happen. Actually, Nicole Davis and I are going to be presenting on that topic at Bridging the Gap this July. And so if you have not signed up yet, I hope that there is still tickets available by the time this goes live, because I do not want you to miss that. I am so excited. She's got this whole concept that, um, that, you know, imposter ism is this feeling. She's also like I am where she won't call it imposter syndrome because it's not a syndrome. [00:41:00] We're not sick, we're not sick. We don't need to be treated. This is a very human feeling. And She's like, you know, the reason that it's called a syndrome, though, is that people are feeling like they're an imposter, even though they've got receipts, you know, they've got proof that they deserve it. She calls them receipts. And so she's like, show me the receipts. I know you can do this. And so I'm really, I am, I am super excited about [00:41:30] that. Um, I mean, I guess, yeah, it's going to be so good. You're going to be there. I know you're going to be there.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I am going to be.
Nancy McClelland: There coordinating the volunteers for the, for the event. If you're interested in volunteering at Bridging the Gap, give Melissa Miller Ferguson a call. Um, so yeah, I mean, I guess that leads us into practical permission, right? Right. Like how, how can we give each other permission? What is showing up look like? Well.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Number one, [00:42:00] encourage others to apply.
Nancy McClelland: Yep. Yep. Asking to be nominated or asking for a recommendation. Or if you're applying for something like a scholarship through Accounting Cornerstone Foundation asking for a letter of reference.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Right. Um. Apply yourself.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Just do it.
Nancy McClelland: Just do it. Apply anyway. Yep. Posting the nomination, which is something that we were talking about. [00:42:30] Because even if you don't end up being an award recipient, being able to talk about how you did the hard thing and went through the whole process and got nominated and filled out the application, that is significant. So I think posting the nomination is a big win.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: The nomination is an award of its of its own.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it really is.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. Um, asking for votes.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Don't be.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Shy.
Nancy McClelland: Or [00:43:00] even if you are shy, ask anyway.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: You know, theater of public speaking made us write acceptance speeches. If we were nominated for an award to practice the real life situation where you don't know ahead of time. And it was a really cool exercise. So I was nominated last year for, uh, some awards through Theater of Public Speaking, which is a group that, [00:43:30] um, Melissa and question and I are all in, uh, that Misty Mejia runs. We talk about theater public speaking a lot. And in this society, they had these nominations. And we, if we found out that we were nominated for one of these awards, they told us we have to write an acceptance speech for this, because in the real world, you often don't know ahead of time. And then they say, like at the Oscars and the winner is and you have to be ready. [00:44:00] And it was actually a really beautiful exercise because it helps center your gratitude. Like, what am I grateful for about being in this place? And it helps remind you of your why. And I, you know, I was especially excited because then I won top speaker of the year, which I totally did not expect because they didn't tell us ahead of time what the nominations were for that. Um, but there's another great example of like, oh, [00:44:30] I didn't win any of the things I got nominated for. And I was so sad that I didn't win anything. And then they announced the top speaker of the year. And I was like, well, obviously that's not going to me. I mean, they would have told me if I had gotten nominated for that, but it turns out they didn't tell anybody that they got nominated for that. So that was that was pretty exciting.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: That was exciting and fun.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And they helped us with some language you can use, [00:45:00] You know, sometimes and we talk about this and ask a CPA sometimes about having a script. Actually, we just did a pricing panel the other day with Deb Kilsheimer and, um, Candy Belo and, um, Jamie Pena. And one of the things they said is that when you're, when you know, you're going to be having a pricing conversation, since we're all so uncomfortable, even the best of them at pricing. Um, and they are the pros, even [00:45:30] the best of them. Deb was like, I'm, I'm pea green like the rest of you. Like I do not want to have to do this. And so they gave us some tips on like scripts that you can use. So like ahead of time, you know, what you're going to say. So some examples of language that you can use for these things would be.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Look at all the incredible people on this list. What an honor to be included.
Nancy McClelland: That's my favorite one.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I really like that one because.
Nancy McClelland: You're really spreading the love, right?
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. This [00:46:00] is a good one. This this is probably my personal favorite cause. Or maybe not favorite, but it models me share that it's hard to do your own horn. Yeah, that's me and why you're doing it anyway.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, that's a fantastic one. And a personal story of why the award matters to you. So that was what I used when I, like I said earlier, with the top 50 women in accounting because it meant. Oh, wow. All of this really hard work I did during the pandemic to spread education [00:46:30] and knowledge and truth in a world of a lot of confusion. I was recognized for that very specific thing.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Yeah. Um, a favorite quote that sums up your feelings or maybe a song. Um, I really like the quote as a way to kind of start a talk or a, or a, you know, thank you.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really, that's a really wonderful one. Um, another one is how you want [00:47:00] to be the example for others that someone was for you.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Oh yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Which I don't know, that resonates very deeply.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Pay it forward.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And, you know, gratitude to the vendors and sponsors for making it possible to tag them in your social media and you'll get more reach yourself and support them.
Nancy McClelland: And they'll be, they'll be happy for you. And some of those sponsors or vendors might be like, oh, [00:47:30] wow, I'm really impressed by, you know, how much reach that person was able to get when they tagged us. I might be interested in reaching out to them to have them do a webinar for us or collaborate in some strategic partnership. I mean, the tagging is really helpful. It I think you want to tag as many people as you reasonably can without being insincere. Like you have to make sure that their tags that actually mean something for sure. And that's, you know, it's part of the visibility [00:48:00] that we were talking about earlier. Um, and it makes everyone around you feel good too. I mean, it's a, it's a triple win.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Win win win.
Nancy McClelland: Win win win. Totally. Well, as we wrap up, there are just a few takeaways that Melissa and I want to leave everyone with. I think the biggest thing that we'd really love to get across here, and I hope that all of the amazing people that we know from theater, public speaking and from ask [00:48:30] a CPA and bookkeeping buds are listening because this is this is for you showing up for the awards process even when you feel undeserving. This is what creates permission for others to show up too.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Absolutely. And you know, if you've been sitting on something, this is your nudge. Yeah. Just do.
Nancy McClelland: It all. It all gets tied back to do it anyway. Do it anyway. Flex [00:49:00] that, ask muscle. And I mean, you know, we tie this all back as we always do on she counts to community and the shared experience. I am so glad that we have our audience and sponsors to support us and give us the courage and the space to say some of these really hard things out loud. This is such a challenging subject to talk about openly because, you know, Melissa, [00:49:30] we're talking about vulnerability. We're talking about jealousy, we're talking about feelings of self-worth or self doubt. And yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a lot. It's a lot.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: We have a feeling that we all, everybody feels this way at one point or another. Yeah. And so, you know, Nancy loves to say you are not alone and [00:50:00] you are not alone.
Nancy McClelland: You are not alone. Yeah. As we wrap up, we would like to ask listeners to please follow our She Counts podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on this conversation by sharing under the episode The Courage to be nominated. Tell us about a time you went for it even though you were afraid. And if it hasn't happened yet, then share [00:50:30] with us. What's an opportunity that hasn't yet crossed your mind until now is something you could go for.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: I love it. So we're hoping this episode will inspire you to go for it and.
Nancy McClelland: To tell us about.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: It.
Nancy McClelland: Tell us about it when you do, tell us. Share.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Share when you do, we want to know. So before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Mae Jemison, the first black woman in space. [00:51:00] Never limit yourself because of others. Limited imagination and never limit others because of your own limited imagination.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my God, I love that quote so much. And also, Mae Jemison is like one of the coolest people who ever lived that that is it's especially it's especially appropriate because I planned this episode on the day that Artemis two was scheduled for splashdown. So it's a, it's especially [00:51:30] a perfect quote. Thank you, Melissa, for co-hosting with me today. I really appreciate questions. Sending you in her in her spot when she couldn't make it last minute. Um, and thank you to all of our listeners for being here with us on She counts the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So [00:52:00] you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening@earmark.app. Links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the show notes.
Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps other people find the podcast. We'd be honored if you'd share with another woman in accounting who needs [00:52:30] to hear it too.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: And we or question and Nancy, we'll see everyone in two weeks.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you. Take care.
Melissa Miller Ferguson: Bye.