How to Make Business Happen When Life Happens

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Nancy McClelland: Welcome to. She counts, the Real talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland and Christian Telka. And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.

Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And [00:00:30] you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.

Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our sponsors, Forwardly Ignition and Keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Today's episode is called How to Make Business Happen When Life Happens.

Questian Telka: We're going to talk about what it means to go to work in a time of personal crisis. And we love launching each episode with a story. [00:01:00] And Nancy, I know you have one to share with us.

Nancy McClelland: I sure do. And it's not a happy one. Um, I have had medical problems my entire life because I was born with a severely deformed spine. But, uh, it really got bad in July of 2017. And it was so bad that I ended up having seizures on my left leg every time that I would sit down or lie down. It was absolutely [00:01:30] horrible. I wanted to die.

Questian Telka: I can't even imagine.

Nancy McClelland: No, it was I. I almost can't imagine. And I like, lived through it. Um, and it's it's impossible for me to sometimes it's impossible for me to believe it really happened. Um. And what I find myself thinking is, thank goodness it happened in July. And not during 1099 season or tax season or year end tax planning sessions. But, like, what a weird thing to be so relieved that something so [00:02:00] awful could have been even worse. I question. I will always remember staring at my laptop screen in my hospital room. Now I couldn't sit down or lie down, right? So I was standing for days on end.

Questian Telka: Oh my God.

Nancy McClelland: My husband was trying to figure out how to prop me up so that I could sleep, and no amount of drugs that they gave me [00:02:30] worked. Nothing. Nothing touched it. It just I here I was standing looking at this laptop screen and everything was just wobbling before my eyes. And I would try to do something because I had to work, right. I run my own firm. I had clients and team members who depend on me, so I would I would try to do something, and then I would switch to one screen and I would forget why I had moved to that new screen, and there was nothing [00:03:00] they could do to help me. They. They eventually actually kicked me out of the hospital with no rehab, no home help. It was absolutely, unquestionably the most miserable time of my life, and it became apparent that it wasn't going to stop anytime soon. And, um, in the end, I did go 107 days without sitting down or lying down. Except are.

Questian Telka: You kidding.

Nancy McClelland: Me?

Questian Telka: 107 days. I did not know that.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, [00:03:30] 107 days. And every day I would stand up all day long for all the things. Yes, all of the things. And every night I would. I would, um, you know how little kids will. It'll be bedtime and they'll do anything to put it off. Yeah. I was like.

Questian Telka: Of course I.

Nancy McClelland: Was like that because I didn't. I knew that I was going to have seizures for like an hour, an hour and a half once I lay down. And it was just it was horrible. It was just horrible. And [00:04:00] it became apparent that it wasn't going to go away anytime soon. So I ended up reaching out to a local colleague that I had actually sent any of the we don't we don't do tax only. We only do taxes for people whose books we do. And so anybody who would come to me who needed tax only work, I would, I would always refer it to this other, this local colleague. Um, and so I reached out and I told them what was happening, and I ended up just giving away clients that I [00:04:30] would have otherwise sold one day. But on the other hand, the colleague was very supportive and matched my pricing for those clients, even in situations where their rates otherwise would have exceeded mine, because, you know, they they were trying to take care of not just them, but me as well. And they even said to me, they said, you know, we're just going to do this for you, for your your folks who are on extension. And if you want them back next year, you year. You can take them back next year like they were. Really? Yeah, it was really. [00:05:00]

Questian Telka: I mean, I knew. A good part of that story, but I didn't realize some of the, some of the details you were sharing. And and that she did that. That's that's amazing.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. And I did I had quite a few takeaways from it that have really influenced the, you know, obviously everything that came afterward. Um, it made me realizing that that right sizing so that I was no longer supporting the folks who maybe I had taken on earlier in my career, but they weren't a fit anymore. And one example there is, um, ministerial taxes. [00:05:30] Um, because I worked at as the accounting supervisor at a theological society when I first moved to Chicago. Um, I ended up, you know, just being friends with a lot of people who were ministers and, um, ended up getting into that area, but it wasn't something I was passionate about. And so I gave all of them away. Um.

Questian Telka: So it kind of forced you, in a sense, to really think about what your ideal client was like right at that time.

Nancy McClelland: It did. Question. No, it absolutely [00:06:00] did. I had never done that before. Like, I knew that it was a ragtag group of folks, and that these weren't necessarily the folks that I was excited about caring for. But I, I had never been exposed to the concept of an ideal client profile that was brand new to me. Um, so that actually helped. Um, and it meant that a few years later when I decided to do it, when I was not in the middle of a medical crisis, but was just being intentional about whittling down [00:06:30] my, my client list, it it I was like, well, I did it before and the world didn't end. So I guess I can do it again. Also, I have to tell you, there was only one client who wasn't understanding all of my clients, whether they whether I was transferring them to a colleague or wasn't going to be working with them anymore, or just was late on some of the things that I had promised them. Everybody was freaking amazing except [00:07:00] for one.

Questian Telka: And so you did a really good job of vetting your clients initially because you found amazing, amazing people and humans.

Nancy McClelland: And that one client went on to the giveaway list immediately. I had planned to keep them, but after they reacted with like, yeah, yeah, but when can you get our tax return done? I was like, and goodbye.

Questian Telka: You're fired. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: So I did have a lot of takeaways. And then one other takeaway that I want to mention from that, [00:07:30] and I want to call her out by name, Mindy Luebke from Bookkeeping Bud's. I mean, all the bookkeeping buds were so amazing, but I get a little choked up every time I think she reached out to me. She's she's in the Chicagoland area. She reached out to me and immediately offered to take any work that I couldn't handle off of my plate, and we would just figure it out later.

Questian Telka: Oh, that's so amazing. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: She was just like, what do you need right [00:08:00] now? Give it to me. I will do it. I will figure it out. We will. We'll deal with the specifics later. It still sticks in my mind as the number one kindest moment in my entire life, and I am forever grateful to her for letting me know that I had a safety net. I didn't know that I had a safety net, but I did.

Questian Telka: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one thing that is important, I think, for everybody to keep in mind, is that [00:08:30] these situations and these traumatic events and difficult personal and professional situations happen often. And if it hasn't happened to you yet, it will or it will impact somebody close to you. And so I think it's really important to lead with empathy and understand what other people's challenges are, and not just to to empathize [00:09:00] with them, which is one thing, and that's important, but to also show compassion and offer some sort of concrete help so that you know.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely.

Questian Telka: To take, because, again, community is so important. And when we come together and we provide that support for one another, it just makes life and business so much better for everyone.

Nancy McClelland: I mean, question, one of the things I learned from my experience is that you never know what someone is going [00:09:30] through. Because remember, my odd situation was that I could not sit down or lie down. So I was standing all the time. So people see me standing up. How would they know there's anything wrong with me, right? And so I, I, I realized that my horrible situation, it was actually invisible to many people, and so you never know what someone is going through.

Questian Telka: Well, and I think now it's [00:10:00] so much more acceptable than when this happened to you, for example, to share about these personal events that are happening and taking place in everybody's lives and to be open and honest and transparent about what's what's happening. And there's less I mean, there's still pressure. There's still a lot of pressure to keep it all together. And I feel like for us as firm owners, there's there's pressure to keep it together because we need to for [00:10:30] our clients and our people. But working in a larger firm, I think there's a lot of pressure to always come across as professional and to not have emotions and to not lean into our humanity, which is unfortunate.

Nancy McClelland: But and it is one of the reasons that I have never worked for a big firm, because that's not me. You know, you talk about how it's it's more acceptable now to share this kind of thing. I've always been a some people would call it an oversharer. [00:11:00] I correct people when they. My friend Valerie Heckman was, was, um, texting our group some stuff that happened to her the other day, and she said, well, I'm sorry to overshare. And I said, girl, it's not called oversharing. It's just called sharing. And it's what we do for each other.

Questian Telka: That's right.

Nancy McClelland: So I've always been like that, and, um, and I've never felt the pressure to keep my struggles private. However, I have felt the internally generated probably [00:11:30] pressure to to keep it all together and keep things moving despite what's going on. Now, I know you have, um, a really traumatic story as well. We are leading with these stories in part so we can get to the good and more positive stuff later. Um, but it's important that, you know, there are there are some horrible stories out there. So, you know, when you are thinking about your own story, you are not alone. You are not alone. So question. [00:12:00] Please tell us what happened.

Questian Telka: Yeah I will. Well, first I'll go back to what you were saying about how, before I tell the story about how you were, um, you know, you've not been in a big firm, and you've always kind of been an overshare. I haven't been, but I am more so now. And I think it's after having had some of these happen things, things happened to me. I started to I was so emotional about it that I would just I started opening [00:12:30] up to people and then they started sharing their situations with me.

Nancy McClelland: And you would you're saying like you, you thought previously that you had to, like, keep it all in. But then when you were so emotional about this and you had to let it out, and then you would share and it would actually cause people to then share their story that favor, right?

Questian Telka: Yeah. And so then you started. So then I decided that I wanted to do that for somebody else. And so I just started I just kind [00:13:00] of share my stories whenever somebody wants to hear them, because I know that it helps because it's people can relate to it, because it is just, um, it's happening.

Nancy McClelland: As you said, if it hasn't happened to you yet, it will. My will. My business bestie, Melissa miller Ferguson, um, had a really traumatic experience and and kept it so quiet. And it was just eating her up. And, um, at some [00:13:30] point she, she had an experience like you where she started letting it out. Um, and it was it was a very, very specific thing that resonated with other parents. Um, and then she started finding out how many parents had been through this kind of traumatic experience and she realized, oh my gosh. I owe it to other people to share my story because it gives them permission to share theirs and to recognize that they're not alone.

Questian Telka: Yeah. Yeah. So what happened to us was, [00:14:00] as I mentioned previously, and I will I'll tell it again quickly that I have a son that has a non genetic chromosomal abnormality that's extremely rare. So he's had a lot of medical intervention in his life. And last year he had a very serious medical medical condition that was not from his syndrome, but caused by a prior surgery that he had [00:14:30] had. And he was in the hospital for a month and we and he almost died. Yeah. I mean, it is it is.

Nancy McClelland: I was even like there with you as it was happening. And yet when I imagine what you were feeling and thinking and going through during that time. I kind of lose my ability to be empathetic because I cannot. I can be compassionate and sympathetic, but I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be in that situation. I cannot.

Questian Telka: You [00:15:00] know, it's interesting because I just I have seemed to recognize that when. So when he was born, you know, that was also extremely traumatic because we didn't know if he was going to survive. We didn't know what was wrong. Um, and he was in the NICU for a long time, too. But this for some reason, I still haven't figured out why yet. It's a work in progress, but I tend to compartmentalize and stuff everything in a box and then deal with it later. Because when you are going through that, sometimes that's just what you have [00:15:30] to do to keep going. And this last year, for some reason, that situation, although in a sense I sense, I think it was the same level of trauma as after he was born. It just I it nearly it just nearly broke me. And I, I was actually speaking to a friend yesterday and I said I broke and she said no, you actually didn't. But if you if you would have, that's okay. And it would have [00:16:00] been understandable. But you but.

Nancy McClelland: You.

Questian Telka: Didn't.

Nancy McClelland: You didn't actually break and and.

Questian Telka: The reason I didn't. Yeah. Go ahead.

Nancy McClelland: No, I, I know who you're talking about. That was Shirley Cox, wasn't it.

Questian Telka: Yes yes yes yes.

Nancy McClelland: She's she has shared similar things with me. She always knows the right thing to say. She does. She does. Uh, when, when she say. But you didn't when she said but you didn't break. Um, I feel like one of the lessons. And I know we want to talk about this a little more later, but [00:16:30] one of the lessons there is you didn't give yourself permission to break.

Questian Telka: No, I didn't, but part of the reason I didn't give myself permission because I didn't feel like I had a choice. Number one. But the second was. Thankfully, I also had a really incredible support system and community that really I mean, our community, my family, friends, everybody just rose to help [00:17:00] us. And that is the so important to me to provide that for someone else or in the same or similar situation. But that's a huge takeaway for me, is just like having that support system and being that support system for others. And no matter how much you plan, you can't always, you know, trauma just happens no matter how many plans you make. Sometimes trauma is just traumatic. That's right.

Nancy McClelland: The only. [00:17:30] Yeah, it just is. And and it's not something that you can plan for.

Questian Telka: So I would love to know. What when you were going through this. Like, what can we what could have been done for you? What can we do for others so that nobody feels alone when they're dealing with these inevitable life events that we that we have?

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. I'm really glad that we're [00:18:00] leading with what can we do for others? There are a lot of, you know, we're going to cover some practical things that that we can do for ourselves in these times. But I, I feel like if you're going to get one thing out of this episode, it's learning what you can do for others so that no one has to go it alone. Because when you are in that moment of crisis, it is very hard to know what to ask for. It's very hard to know what you need. It's very hard for some people to. Even [00:18:30] if you know what, you need to get up the courage to ask for it. So if we're being proactive with the other people in our lives, if we're looking for signs that somebody might be struggling. Let's let's do something about it. Um, one of the things I was talking about with, um, there's a there's I have a few friends who are so positive. They always see the bright side of things. And, um. That's not me. That is.

Questian Telka: So.

Nancy McClelland: Not [00:19:00] me. And the reason I love that you.

Questian Telka: Admit that, by the way.

Nancy McClelland: Really?

Questian Telka: Because I feel like that's a hard thing for people to admit, right?

Nancy McClelland: We're supposed to be like, look on the bright side. Be grateful for what you have. Everything happens for a purpose. Like I, I get that that helps a lot of people to have that attitude. But I have a different mantra. It's very important to me. Um, it's that the good and the bad coexist. They do not cancel [00:19:30] each other out. It's okay. In fact, I would encourage venting Commenting about the hard parts and recognize that that does not make you any less grateful for the good parts. The joy and the gratitude and the moments of escape. You can appreciate those every bit, every bit, as much as you would have if everything in your life were going well, as [00:20:00] a matter of fact, better because you see that contrast.

Questian Telka: Oh my gosh.

Nancy McClelland: Yes. Right.

Questian Telka: That's what happened to me last year.

Nancy McClelland: Well, and you and I both love to dance, so I'm going to use dance as an example of you. I remember you were in the middle of that horrible. I think he had only been he had only been out of the hospital a couple of months. And and you went to some like, dance event and you were like, oh my gosh. For a moment, just for a moment, I didn't feel all the pain all [00:20:30] at the same time. And that happens to me.

Questian Telka: My mind is clear when I dance.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to. Music is huge. I want to point out your sisters. They are here to validate all of the hard parts and the messy emotions, as well as help you land on the bright side. So we don't want to only be negative and and sit in that space and wallow in it and get stuck. But we also don't want to accidentally [00:21:00] invalidate people's real experiences just by saying, hey, you got this, you got this girl. You can do it without. It's okay to say, you got this, but you gotta also acknowledge the hard parts, right? Or give practical solutions or offer to help, or just do something you know will be helpful. Because if you don't acknowledge the hard parts, it can actually be really isolating. Positivity alone. Positivity alone isn't enough. [00:21:30]

Questian Telka: I agree, I completely agree with you. And you know, to go back to your to the conversation and the thought that you brought up about the good and the bad coexisting. That was my experience in the last year. It was the most awful time of my life, and personally and the but in a professional manner. Some of the most amazing accomplishments and goals at the same time. And I remember thinking to myself, [00:22:00] I really wish that my personal life was more together right now because I feel like I could enjoy this more.

Nancy McClelland: You could enjoy the professional.

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Validation and achievements and the great things that were happening.

Questian Telka: But but at the same time, I'm so happy that that contrast was there because it helped keep my head above water. So it's really and I did notice the, the, you know, the polarity between the two feelings. And it was important that I had [00:22:30] the opposite side of that at the same time because it helped me keep going.

Nancy McClelland: So another thing I want to bring up as like what can we do for others is, um, I want to talk briefly about a Jewish tradition. Um, I know I mentioned that I worked at a theological seminary, and I always joke that, of course they of course they would hire a Jewish person to handle their finances. Right. To to be the money handler. Um, I am Jewish, and, um, [00:23:00] there is a beautiful tradition of praying when you hear an ambulance siren and whether you believe in the power of prayer or not, think about this. This is a spontaneous act of compassion and kindness. It's it's a way of expressing solidarity with those who are in need and hoping for a positive outcome. So think about this. If you were that person [00:23:30] inside the ambulance And you knew that everyone within the sound of your siren, even strangers, were wishing you well. How much strength would that give you to hold on until you get to the hospital? Right. Like you knew that all of these people. So I'm going to I'm going to sort of, um, I just want to emulate this right now by giving a shout out to our dear [00:24:00] friend. I'm not going to give her a shout out by name, but she knows who she is. She's currently battling breast cancer, and we want to let her know that we're all thinking about her. So please, anybody who hears this podcast pretend that this is the ambulance siren and think about her. Send her good energy or say a prayer for her or whatever works for you. And then when she hears this, she will know that all of those people were rooting for her.

Questian Telka: Yes, [00:24:30] I love that. That's so amazing. I think it's it's not just about also what we can do to manage things, as you were saying, in our own time of crisis. It's how we can be intentional about also helping other people, right?

Nancy McClelland: So there is something that you said, actually, um, to me that was so helpful to you when you were going through your crisis. Um, and [00:25:00] you alluded to it earlier. You talked about doing concrete things.

Questian Telka: Yes. Yeah. I think I think I know what you're talking about. And that was that, you know, when I, when and you touched on it also when you're going through something like that, it is so difficult to. It's so difficult to tell people what you need and everyone's asking right. Everyone's like, what do you need? And so something that you can do for somebody when they have that need is [00:25:30] just to think it to to figure something out on your own. Like sending a DoorDash gift card or food or, you know, money or gift cards or whatever it may be. Just take it upon yourself to do what? Do whatever it is.

Nancy McClelland: If you are a member of their team, maybe you know that they've got a deliverable that's coming up soon, and you just go ahead and take care of it and you say, don't you worry about that. I've got that client or, um, you know, you could be like, oh, I know you've got that submission [00:26:00] coming up. I actually took the liberty of writing an outline for you can if you approve this, like, I'll go ahead and submit it. Like think about what you would need in their situation and just do it right. Because I know some people struggle to accept help.

Questian Telka: Yes, that's what I that was the next thing that I was going to say is that that's been a huge struggle for me. Um, my mom was telling me yesterday, it was funny. I don't even remember how we got into this conversation. But she's like, you know, some people are just [00:26:30] born with certain personality traits. You were born independent and stubborn and, oh, I almost spit out my water.

Nancy McClelland: Yes.

Questian Telka: That's you.

Nancy McClelland: And you know what? Actually, that's not just you question. That's me too. And it might be all of the overachieving women who are listening to this podcast. A lot of us popped out, you know, just ready to go.

Questian Telka: Ready to go. We're like, we're just going for it. And so asking for help [00:27:00] has always been very difficult for me, and I always felt like it meant that I had failed in some way. So accepting it, asking for it and accepting it was so hard. But I needed it and I'm happy that I did. And so I tried to give it to others as much as as much as I can when I'm able.

Nancy McClelland: So you felt like asking for help made you a failure or you felt guilty or what? I mean, Both a failure. [00:27:30]

Questian Telka: Guilty. I don't know where it comes from.

Nancy McClelland: I assume.

Questian Telka: That it's.

Nancy McClelland: The. I want to give you a hug so badly. I wish we were recording this in person.

Questian Telka: Well, you can give me a hug when I see you next.

Nancy McClelland: Okay, that sounds good. Um, you also had talked about, um, it not being something where you expect anything in return?

Questian Telka: Yes, that's. I think that's so important is really just. This is not I. When I do this, when I do [00:28:00] something like this for somebody else. Like I don't even expect a thank you from them. I mean, you do it. That's what we do, right? I did the same in return. But I do it without any expectation, because all that expectation does is put more weight on the person who's really suffering, and then they feel pressure and feel guilty if they're not able to do whatever they need to do. So just really simply doing it because that's what that person needs without any sort of like need for acknowledgment because [00:28:30] I just.

Nancy McClelland: Thought of an idea. I just came up with an idea, you know, we were talking about, like, what can you do for someone to make it easier on them? If you know that that person is going to freak out because they have not been able to say thank you, and they want to, even though they know it's not expected, you could be like, um, I'm going to write your thank you cards for you.

Questian Telka: Oh, that's such a.

Nancy McClelland: That would be a really neat one, wouldn't.

Questian Telka: It? Yeah, it would be really good.

Nancy McClelland: That would be a really beautiful one. Yeah. And I know that this this is one. It's [00:29:00] a podcast for women in accounting. But you know, we want men to be listening and absorbing and, and taking this in and, and I think that it would be um, it would be sad if we did not acknowledge some of these things are actually more difficult for men in our culture.

Questian Telka: I agree. Yeah, yeah. And I think we need to normalize asking for help for them too. You know, there's like the old joke that men will like, not stop and ask for help with directions. And so you'll just. Yeah, you'll just just [00:29:30] go in circles for days before.

Nancy McClelland: We just gave you directions. So take them. Take them. Yeah. Um, let's talk about let's talk about why this happens in the first place. Why do women in accounting feel sometimes like they cannot pause in a time of crisis? And again, we know it's not limited to women, but we do have some particular challenges here that make it a bit different than men have it. And I want to talk about that question. Can [00:30:00] you start us off with this? Because I know you're sort of emblematic of of this next myth.

Questian Telka: Yes. So I had always had the mindset. I'm actually kind of ashamed to admit it, but I always had the mindset.

Nancy McClelland: This is where this is real talk. This is the part where you admit the things that you're ashamed of, the things.

Questian Telka: That it was like, I just have to we have to suck it up. We have to suck it up. Something's hard. You have to push through and, you know, keep [00:30:30] going and suck it up.

Nancy McClelland: Were you?

Questian Telka: I was raised that way. Okay. Yeah. I mean, my, you know, my my mom is very strong and, um, you know, had had a challenging life. And so I was just kind of this is what you do. And I think it's partially, possibly a generational thing as well. I mean, I don't know the concept of.

Nancy McClelland: Of pushing through and just making it happen regardless.

Questian Telka: Yeah. I mean, in part, you think about [00:31:00] what some older generations really actually had to, to go through compared to what some of the younger, you know, like mine. Um, and so I think there's that had been that's kind of this mindset that I had had for a long time. And then last year, like I said, I almost broke. And that was when I was like, you know what I, I just there is no more. Suck it up like I'm done. I cannot suck it up.

Nancy McClelland: Instead of being like, [00:31:30] I got this, I got this, I got this, I got this. You were like, I don't got this.

Questian Telka: I don't got this.

Nancy McClelland: I don't.

Questian Telka: Got this, I don't got this. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: And you know what I think I think that, that it just to to validate that, you know, like you we develop compassion for others when we start to see how isolating that can be and admit that you don't have to push through, you can break. What's that? I saw that meme. It is so funny. Um, tacos break too. And we love them. [00:32:00]

Questian Telka: I do.

Nancy McClelland: It's okay if you break because, you know, you've we're we're going to help you pick those crumbs up. Um, I there's a really no go ahead. You go for it.

Questian Telka: I was going to say that there is a great piece of data that the American Psychological Association defines resilience It's not as pushing through, but as the ability to adapt, recover and what [00:32:30] we were saying. Ask for.

Nancy McClelland: Help. Ask for help.

Questian Telka: Yeah. So it really requires resilience, requires recalibration. And I think that is so important. And actually we're going to be having a panel at Bridging the Gap, talking about resilience and building resilience in your personal life as well as your business, because it's so important and because my mind has been completely changed. That suck it up is the way to go.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, [00:33:00] yeah. No kidding. Well, I'm going to I'm going to quote some more data because in um, Accounting Today in 2022 they did a survey. And it turns out 41% of female CPAs who experienced personal loss. They said they delayed taking time off because they did not want to avoid or they did not want to be seen as weak. They wanted to avoid being seen as weak, and 76% later regretted not [00:33:30] stepping back sooner. So that it's the suck it up mentality. But it is not the only reason that we do this.

Questian Telka: We also we also are perfectionists. A lot of us write and we get into that, that trap. Like we have to be the reliable person or the reliable one. And when you have something that you're going through that's traumatic, it's difficult to maintain perfectionism. [00:34:00] It's not just difficult. It's impossible to.

Nancy McClelland: It's impossible to maintain perfectionism on a good day. Like on my best day, I'm still not perfect. And so, like.

Questian Telka: Are you sure? I don't know, you seem pretty perfect.

Nancy McClelland: I mean, I'm pretty amazing, but I'm not perfect.

Questian Telka: Um.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Like it. This is, I think, a a socially prescribed perfectionism. And, um, Lynette O'Connell is actually going to be on that [00:34:30] panel with you at Bridging the Gap. And she's known as the burnout bestie. Please follow her on socials because boy, does she have some great content. And she has pointed out numerous times that, like socially prescribed perfectionism, this is a known predictor of burnout. And the International Journal of Accounting and Finance found that 68% of female accountants reported this like sense of, uh, being expected to never make mistakes. 68% were [00:35:00] felt like they were expected never to make mistakes. I mean, it it doesn't make sense. We know logically it doesn't make sense, but it's really, really hard. You know, it's a it's a defensive behavior. It's driven by fear of judgment.

Questian Telka: Because we feel like we have to be perfect and we can't make mistakes. But I have absolutely zero expectation of anybody else to do that or to do that. So it's really interesting that we have that expectation of ourselves and [00:35:30] without.

Nancy McClelland: Having it of others.

Questian Telka: Exactly. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Brene Brown actually did, um, a bunch of research on vulnerability and shame. I'm sure you've been you're familiar with a lot of that. Um, and, uh, so if that's a topic that you're interested in, in diving into more, that's, that's somebody I would definitely look up.

Questian Telka: Yeah. Brené Brown's great.

Nancy McClelland: You actually, you just said, this leads me to our next point here about why this is [00:36:00] happening. You pointed out that with this sort of socially prescribed perfectionism that we in general, we we think that that is an expectation of us, but we don't actually expect that of other people. And so the that gap between these internal versus external expectations. Expectations during a crisis. Um, sometimes the loudest pressure is not coming from your clients. It's coming [00:36:30] from inside your own head. And, you know, we've been taught to fear that, like being seen as less than anything, even when life is happening is not appropriate. And I it makes me it brings me a lot of anxiety. And, um, so I've talked to my therapist a lot about this, and I, I know I've told this to you before. I've said this to a lot of people because I want everybody to know, um, I [00:37:00] want everybody to know this piece of advice my therapist framed for me the concept of doing your best. That's not the platonic ideal of what it means. Your best. What does that mean? It means doing your best means the best you can do under the circumstances. Circumstances which are often less than ideal. Right?

Questian Telka: Always. Almost always. At least [00:37:30] in my experience, than others. Yeah. Of course.

Nancy McClelland: So for me, you know what I've started doing? Question is, um, I've just started saying this out loud to people with whom I'm working when I'm struggling, and it lets them know I really am doing the best that I can, and I'm simply not in a situation to do more, but that when I am, they will get that version of my best. I'm. Um.

Questian Telka: I think that's a really great that's a really great phrase. Can phrase. Can you [00:38:00] repeat it again? Because I think that that's something that we should all say and tell ourselves as well as other people.

Nancy McClelland: Okay. So doing your best doesn't mean the platonic ideal of your best. It means the best you can do under the circumstances. And so I let people know that I really am doing the best I can. I'm simply not in a situation to do more, but that when I am, they'll get that version of my best.

Questian Telka: Yeah, [00:38:30] I think that's so important. And it's good. Yeah. Good reminder for all of us.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely.

Questian Telka: We've already really talked about what we can do to help others, but we also it's really important to think about our own survival tools, like what can we do. What can we do for ourselves.

Nancy McClelland: Right. Not just coping but managing like practical solutions. Practical solutions. Yes. Yeah. How do you manage work during a personal crisis? Okay, well, I've got a very important one that [00:39:00] again, if this is the only part that you take away from this section, communicate. Communicate clearly. Communicate honestly. Let I this is easier for me than it is for other people, But I know that. I know that you're going to back me up on this later on. So I'm just let me get this out. All right? So let key clients, teammates, your boss, whomever it is that is in your life on [00:39:30] a regular basis, let them know that you're experiencing a challenge. You do not have to explain all the details, right, but let them know because. Transparency. Yeah. Go ahead.

Questian Telka: I was going to say, I think that's so important that you said you don't have to give them details, because when going back to what I was saying earlier about the culture of working in a larger firm, I do feel like in [00:40:00] my experience, I can only speak for my own. Of course, that when you provide some of those details, sometimes it can. It feels like it can be held against you and occasionally it is. So it's like you do have to kind of have a, a bit of a measured kind of, what are you going to share? What are you going to tell? And so it's a really important to know you don't have to share everything, but to kind of let them know that, that there's something happening.

Nancy McClelland: Letting them know that there's something [00:40:30] going on is is just like it's a very vulnerable thing to do. But it also is very transparent. And transparency builds trust, and it sets realistic expectations for your availability or temporary performance shifts. And it lets them know this isn't forever. And it doesn't make them wonder what the f is going on.

Questian Telka: Um, yes. And because if your work is if your if your responsiveness is changing, if [00:41:00] your work is changing and you're not telling anyone, I think that's such an important point. Then they're wondering what's going on. Why is this happening? Why is their work? Why is, you know, maybe work is you're not able to work as much or you're having, you know, anything could be happening. You could be making more mistakes.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. Your your focus is off. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, we I mentioned Lynette O'Connell. She and I were actually talking yesterday, [00:41:30] and, um, I mentioned that we were going to be doing this podcast. And did she have anything that she wanted to add to the conversation? Given her her, um, area, like where, you know, where she's specifically talks about burnout among accountants. And she said that we underestimate how much our work family cares about us.

Questian Telka: I think that's very true. I saw that firsthand. I mean, I know that I have the incredible relationships, [00:42:00] but when he was in the hospital, so many people came forward and sent gift cards to us and reached out and sent cards. And I really you don't. You can so much more easily recognize it when that when that takes place.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. She was pointing out that we often, you know, we often have a scarcity mindset. Right. And sometimes we will think that our worth to other people, especially the ones that we're working with, especially if you're in [00:42:30] a big firm, um, or you're contracting for someone, we think that our worth to other people is limited by the economic value that we provide to them, and it's just not true. Um, and if it turns out that it's true, maybe it's time to start rethinking where you are and who your boss is, or who your clients and your team members are. Um, and to go back to what you were saying earlier about not having to share all the details, she gave me another really helpful tip. So [00:43:00] she she actually gave me a little script here. So I'm going to read it slowly because people might want to write it down. So after you've shared whatever your story is, however many details you're comfortable sharing, right? That's up to you. You can say that's all I'm comfortable sharing at the moment. But if you're open to it, I may want to share more later. And that's a really warm end to your sharing, right? It shows them that you trust them, [00:43:30] but in a very warm way. It's asking them to respect your boundaries.

Questian Telka: Yes.

Nancy McClelland: You know, you're being very gently. You're saying and seen, you know, like I am not talking about this anymore, but it's you're doing it in a gentle, in a warm way. So that's all I'm comfortable sharing at the moment. But if you're open to it, I may want to share more later.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I think that's so important. And we already kind of hit on this one. But really tapping [00:44:00] into support systems and um, making sure that you are, you know, looking to a fellow bookkeeper or peer group. Maybe you have a business coach, some sort of grounding force that can really help you, not only with the work that you need to accomplish, but any sort of emotional validation. Or if you need strategic thinking. When you're in a time of trauma like that, it's very difficult to make decisions and to think strategically. [00:44:30]

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. And you had talked about how uncomfortable you were accepting help. Um, and I think that learning to become more comfortable with it can really help. And, and to get to that place, practicing vulnerability with other people that can actually build resilience. Um, you know, we think of vulnerability as a weakness, but it's not it's a strength. And that was actually one of the presentations that, um, that [00:45:00] bridging the gap, right? Yeah, it was bridging the gap last year. Vulnerability as a strength. Um, and so I, I encourage you to. I encourage everyone to really lean into that and flex that muscle. Let's talk about a couple of very, very practical, like, okay, we've talked about community. We've talked about emotions. We've talked about all of these things. But what can we do like in the job?

Questian Telka: I think we have to prioritize and we're [00:45:30] doing that all the time anyway. So it's just really important to just be ruthless about it. Like I have to set boundaries. I have to make sure that I am starting with the things that I absolutely have to do and accomplish, like critical deadlines or payroll, because you still want to make sure that everyone is obviously getting paid because that would be a problem. And then determine what are some of the things that can wait for a little while, maybe [00:46:00] some internal projects or long term planning and then, um, What else? What else can we do?

Nancy McClelland: What? We can delegate. We can delegate. Right. So you've got your must do pretend. Pretend you're an emergency room doctor. You've got your must do stop bleeding. Yes. It's triage. Stop the bleeding. Save the patient's life. Right? Like they must do. And then you've got, like you said, the can wait. What can wait? That we think is really important. I [00:46:30] keep saying, oh, I've got to put together my speaker kit. No, I don't have to. I don't have to.

Questian Telka: Do.

Nancy McClelland: That today. Not today. I don't have to. It can wait. And then that delegating. Delegate it or drop it. It's okay to just decide. You know what? I'm cutting scope. Focus only on what's.

Questian Telka: Like you absolutely have to.

Nancy McClelland: Legally required or what's moving the needle and that's [00:47:00] it. And I, I think that for me, you know, we talk a lot in this podcast about how we're all works in progress, and we don't have it all figured out. Here's the hardest part for me that I just don't have it figured out. Clients, colleagues, and team members can be really supportive, but we're in accounting deadlines. Deadlines are deadlines.

Questian Telka: They're real.

Nancy McClelland: I have never figured out how to manage that. People can say, oh, well, your health comes first. But like, what do you have if your [00:47:30] clients can't depend on you for their deadlines? And also, where is your paycheck coming from? Especially self-employed people. I don't get PTO. Right.

Questian Telka: Right.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So if anyone has suggestions in these areas, I know there are going to be some folks who are talking about this at Bridging the Gap this year. Please sign up for that conference. It is my very favorite conference. We're going to be talking about a lot of these things, but if anyone has suggestions in these areas, please share them with us. Because as I've [00:48:00] said many times.

Questian Telka: We don't have it figured out Well, in this one, this episode in particularly this topic, and I feel like it's because it's so top of mind for me because it's been happening so recently. Like, I do not have it figured out and I am not here. Like I'm sharing things, sharing. We're sharing our stories and we're sharing things that have worked for us. But we're excited.

Nancy McClelland: For you to tell us what is working for you [00:48:30] as well. And we can we can crowdsource this, right? So there's one other super hyper practical tip, um, that I was not able to lean on in 2017 when this happened. And then I was able to lean on it this January when I had a personal crisis with my mother's health. And that is systems, templates and automation. Question. You were talking about [00:49:00] how during a crisis like you're it's hard to make decisions.

Questian Telka: Almost. Yeah. It's it's impossible. It's like. And you're also you're making so many decisions that you have decision fatigue from the crisis.

Nancy McClelland: Exactly.

Questian Telka: Making decisions outside of that is, is very complicated and very difficult.

Nancy McClelland: And cognitive bandwidth.

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: We actually.

Questian Telka: Have none.

Nancy McClelland: Yes. So what that means is, like if your life were scripted, [00:49:30] you could just keep reading from the script. So lean hard on SOPs, task management tools saved like email response templates and recurring automations like invoice reminders. Or, you know, one of our sponsors, keeper, they've got this was huge for us, is sending out regular reminders to our clients when they have not answered all of the questions that we have for them. Those go out automatically now. And so this reduces decision fatigue. It helps you operate on [00:50:00] autopilot when needed. But here's the problem. Remember I said I didn't have that in 2017?

Questian Telka: No. I'm still it's a work in progress for me. Always. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: So the problem here is that you already have to have them in place when you disappear. Um, have you heard that quote about Wills?

Questian Telka: I don't think so.

Nancy McClelland: So a will is a document where the moment that you need it, that's exactly when it's too late to make it.

Questian Telka: Yeah. [00:50:30] Yeah. It's just like the, the saying it's the, the, um, you're like, oh, you know, whatever you found is in the last place you looked. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Right. So, um, to this end, Jennifer Diamond is going to be presenting. It's actually a topic she's known for presenting numerous times. Um, which I think it used to be called, like, I'm dead now. What?

Questian Telka: Um, but.

Nancy McClelland: It's a.

Questian Telka: Great.

Nancy McClelland: It's got a new name. It's got a new name now. Um, [00:51:00] she's actually co-presenting it this year with Brittany Mallard, who many of you know, went through some pretty traumatic stuff of her own. So Brittany is kind of going to offer the, um, the real life examples to go along with these contingency plans, uh, that Diamond's going to be talking about. And, uh, so this is at scaling new heights in June, and the session is called Safeguarding your Firm Planning for Unplanned Absences. And that's something [00:51:30] if you're if you're not going to scaling new heights, you need to sign up. And if you are going once you have already signed up, please put that one on there. I, I am bummed that I had to miss it, uh, the last time that it was offered and my bestie, my business bestie Melissa miller Ferguson, told me how amazing it was. And actually it was because of her telling me how amazing it was that, um, this past fall, my husband came with me to the bank to get him on my business account [00:52:00] as a signatory. Because what happens if something happens to me? Yeah. And he's got to take care of stuff moving forward.

Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right. I know it's always important to have and I had to do some of that as well, making sure that somebody had access if they needed it to passwords and client information. And, um, you know, that was something that came up. My team definitely had to just kind of pick up and run with it. Yeah, because there wasn't a whole lot in place, to be fair. [00:52:30] Uh, when that happens.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So just to drive these points home from someone who's recently been there, done that. Um, Aaron Cohen had a really great LinkedIn post on what she calls quote unquote, the scariest part of running a firm. And she has a list there of like, you know, her takeaways. And so I encourage you to follow her on LinkedIn and look up that post.

Questian Telka: Yeah, it's a good one.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So what else [00:53:00] can we ask our audience to do to help us out? Um, we talked about how we we don't have it all figured out, right?

Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, we can ask them to. We would ask all of you, I guess, to post on our She Counts LinkedIn page and share your stories with us of a time when you had to keep things going at work, despite having a really rough period in your personal life. And we would like to know, because we could always [00:53:30] do a future episode and delve into some of this, like what helped you most, and what do you wish that somebody would have said to you or told you during that time?

Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off question, I know we'd love to leave people with a favorite quote. Yes, and you have a good one.

Questian Telka: I do. The only way around is through. And that's from Robert Frost. And that I have found [00:54:00] completely true, especially in my situation, is you're the only way to get through it is to get through it. Right? So there's no way around it except.

Nancy McClelland: You can picture yourself. This is something that was very helpful to me that I learned, um, in 19. No, it was in in 2000, a friend said to me that they sometimes pictured themselves on the other end of that through, you know, they know that they have to get through it.

Questian Telka: That's what I visualize.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Picture [00:54:30] yourself on the other end of that.

Questian Telka: On the other end, and just continually imagining that because, yeah, you're manifesting it right. You're going to get there eventually. Right. So that's a piece of advice that I would I would share is that it's.

Nancy McClelland: You'll make.

Questian Telka: It remember. Yeah. You'll make it. Just keep going and accept where you are. Just accept that it's you're in this moment and keep going and get [00:55:00] to the other side and you'll look back on it and just be.

Nancy McClelland: But keep going doesn't necessarily mean push through. You've got no practical solutions. You've got a community sucking it on. Don't just suck it up. Don't just.

Questian Telka: Suck it.

Nancy McClelland: Up. Um, before we go, I, I want to plug a She Counts book club pick. We. Yes, we have a.

Questian Telka: Book.

Nancy McClelland: Club. Book club? Yes. And our first pick, uh, which neither of us has read yet, because it just came [00:55:30] out the other day and we ordered it the day that it came out, but it hasn't arrived yet. Dawn Brolin has written a book called The Elevation of Empathy, and it just came out. We're so excited because she's going to be an upcoming guest on the show. She's going to be talking about transforming leadership through empathy, which is a skill that many women have hidden or pushed away in a male dominated business world, seeing empathy and compassion as a weakness instead of something to lean [00:56:00] into that actually creates healthier company cultures.

Questian Telka: Yes, I agree. So thanks for being here with us on She Counts, The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.

Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you. Good, because that is exactly why we're doing this.

Questian Telka: We want you to feel seen, heard and never alone.

Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked. We are going to put links to that, [00:56:30] and any other resources that we've mentioned in this show are going to be in the show notes.

Questian Telka: And please be sure to subscribe and share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.

Nancy McClelland: We'll see you in two weeks. Thanks for being here. Bye bye.

Questian Telka: Thanks. Bye.