There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. We're your hosts questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode, we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to figure [00:00:30] it out alone.
Questian Telka: A very special thanks to our season three sponsors, Bill, Relay and Carbon. We're so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking but no one is saying. Learn about them on our sponsors page at she dot show.
Nancy McClelland: And if you want to support the podcast, the one thing that would make the biggest impact is to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform [00:01:00] because reviews really do help others find us.
Questian Telka: And remember that you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credits. And please follow. She counts podcast on LinkedIn to join in on the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called presence, Not Performance, and we have a very special guest with us. Someone who has spent her career walking in the rooms that she wasn't necessarily expected to be in and absolutely [00:01:30] owning them. We're going to talk about executive presence, what it actually is, how you build it and why it matters so much for women in accounting.
Questian Telka: We have Lindsay Patterson with us. Lindsay, say hi to everyone.
Lindsay Patterson: Hi. Thank you guys for having me.
Questian Telka: Lindsay has built her career at the very top of our profession's institutions. She is the CEO of CPA Quality Professional, a compliance platform that helps navigate [00:02:00] the increasing complexity or complex world of firm registration and CPE A licensure. Before that, Lindsey served as executive vice president of membership, marketing and Communications at the Institute of Internal Auditors, leading global membership growth and stakeholder strategy. And then earlier in her career, she spent years at the AICPA working in support of accounting and auditing standards, the CPA [00:02:30] exam and professional development. She holds a CPA, a CIA and a CAE, and she earned her CPA.
Nancy McClelland: Lots of Lindsey. Good job on the C's.
Questian Telka: Lots of letters. And she did this all while working full time and raising kids. Bravo. That's quite the. I mean, that's I'm just like. Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Um, in deference.
Questian Telka: And this really tells you everything you need to know about her. She's been a CPA [00:03:00] practice Advisor 40 under 40 honoree, serves on the Beta Alpha PSI Board of Directors. And here's the detail that we love most. She started out as a journalist.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. And as a fellow writer myself, I love that so, so, so much. For me, the written word is I mean, when I'm, when I'm talking out loud, I'm blah, blah, blah. But when I put it on paper, oh my God, everything just makes more sense [00:03:30] to me. And so I feel a deep connection with you. Uh, starting.
Lindsay Patterson: Way.
Nancy McClelland: Yay! Well, we love watching each episode with a story. And Lindsay, I know you have one that shaped how you think about this topic. And I want not just for our listeners, but for me. I want to hear about that moment in your career, whether it was a room you walked into or a conversation that shifted something, or a turning point where you learned and really [00:04:00] understood what executive presence means. Because I have no clue. I feel like it's one of those things that you know it when you see it, but how do you define it and how do you get there? And what does it cost when you don't have it? Tell us.
Lindsay Patterson: So I have a story from very early in my career. And in fact, it was my very, very first day on the job as a reporter. So over 20 years ago, and I would not have been able to define this as as executive presence at the time, but I certainly learned [00:04:30] the consequences of not having it. So I got assigned to go like cover, just the most basic boring community meeting you can imagine. Literally, it's my first day on the job, right? So they're not sending me to anywhere important. And a state representative was supposed to be speaking there. And I'm supposed to be just like highlighting what he's saying. So I go in, I sit down like all earnest with my little notepad because this was the early 2000. I didn't even have my laptop with me. My pen. I'm ready to go with my recorder. And [00:05:00] he gets up the state representative. He gets up in front of this room of like 30 people. It wasn't even a huge crowd. He's like, hey, I hear that there is somebody from the Uvalde leader news here. Um, where is that person? And I'm, you know, you're in a headlights look, kind of raising my hand. And he's like, I'm not speaking as long as this woman is in the room.
Nancy McClelland: Oh.
Nancy McClelland: That did not happen.
Lindsay Patterson: Oh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Lindsay Patterson: A state.
Nancy McClelland: Representative.
Lindsay Patterson: A state representative. [00:05:30]
Nancy McClelland: Okay, now, Lindsey, I just, I gotta, I gotta, I, I'm already all up in I oh, because so our state representative, by the way, for our district is one of my clients. He's actually a tax client of mine and he is so dedicated to the small businesses in our community that when there's something going on downstate in Springfield, I'm in the I'm in Chicago. And so when there's something going on downstate that he thinks might affect us, he's like, [00:06:00] Nancy, let's get everybody together and let's have a meeting and let's invite the news. Let's invite the reporters, let's invite the people so that they can hear this open, honest discussion that helps us get from here to there. How dare he?
Questian Telka: So what did you do?
Nancy McClelland: What did you do? Yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: So I would love to say that I was like, I deserve to be in this room, sir. So if you're not going to speak, go ahead and leave. I'm not leaving because that's what would happen now. But I wasn't there. I'm like a freaking teenager still, right? I was still in college at this point. So [00:06:30] I started tearing up in the meeting and I just walked out. I didn't say a word to anybody. I went and I sat in my car and I just started crying, crying. And I was so mortified. And then of course, later, because I started covering local politics, I would see him. And this man really did not respect me at all. I don't think anybody in that really.
Nancy McClelland: I couldn't tell. I probably.
Questian Telka: Didn't respect. Very many people.
Lindsay Patterson: Know he probably didn't. But like now I would look at that situation [00:07:00] and be like, you may not respect me, but you're gonna freakin fear me.
Nancy McClelland: But yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: That that was not where I was in life at that point. So I, I really learned I don't want to be that person. Now. I will say like many, many years later, I was working at the Texas legislature. I was working for a much more powerful individual, um, within the House of reps. And this same state rep came into the office wanting a meeting, and I shut him down every time I was like, I don't care how petty I am. Like eight [00:07:30] years later, I remember that.
Questian Telka: You're like, this gives it's like, you never know who you're talking to. It's like, be respectful, be be polite. Like, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Like if you can't be human for a good reason, like just being human like that, that in and of itself is, worthwhile. Then be human because it could get you somewhere or hurt you if you're not. I mean, I feel like it's just a lesson we can all take from this jerk's.
Lindsay Patterson: Life is all [00:08:00] about relationships.
Nancy McClelland: Like, yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: Be nice to people now.
Nancy McClelland: State representative. Like, how far is that guy going to get in politics when he's acting like that?
Lindsay Patterson: That's just I don't think he made it to much further.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: So, but I'm, I don't want to be that. No, no, I don't want to be. Don't be that woman.
Questian Telka: That's right. You don't want to be that woman. So at some point in the process or along the way, you had to make some sort of shift, right? And in order to not allow something like that to happen [00:08:30] to you again. And so, you know, we're here talking about specifically or I'm sorry, executive presence. Um, and so, Nancy, you were mentioning, you're like, I don't really know what it is, what it means.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: And it's often showing up as something in performance evaluations for women as they're trying to move into leadership roles. So let's talk about that question.
Nancy McClelland: You know, you've brought up in prior, um, in prior podcast [00:09:00] episodes how that like vague.
Lindsay Patterson: Oh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: The vagueness of, um, the, you know, for men, it might be like, oh, you know, you can get this promotion if you X, y, z. And for women, the words tend to be much more vague. And, and I feel like this is a good example of that, right? Like, yeah, they, oh, you, you haven't made it because you don't have enough executive presence. That's why.
Questian Telka: You didn't.
Nancy McClelland: Get promotion. But then what does that mean?
Questian Telka: Yeah. And it's, and it can be used to like, you [00:09:30] know, to, to shut someone down in a way. Right. So but let's talk about what is, what is it really like from your. So during that process, Lindsay, where you've kind of, you know, you're like, this is not who I want to be. Like, I'm going to make that shift. And like you went from that to where you are now. So you obviously gained executive presence. I know I've been around you. So, um, so what is it and what is it not from your perspective?
Lindsay Patterson: So I think a lot of times it's traditionally defined as [00:10:00] confidence, how you come into a room, how you communicate, how you look. And that's how you'll see a traditionally defined. But if you were to distill that even simpler terms, I would say it's just instilling confidence in people. Like, are people confident that I'm going to do a good job, that I can lead the team, that I'm going to deliver results or do what I say I am going to do. I think how it should not be looked at as [00:10:30] like overtalking people interrupting, being really aggressive and mean. And I say, that's not it should not look like that. But we have to recognize like it is. It is viewed in did not weigh in some office cultures. So we also have to be like just cognizant of reality. And what works in one office culture isn't always going to work in another office.
Nancy McClelland: So you might have a boss who is saying you don't have enough executive presence, and [00:11:00] then you work really hard on learning to instill confidence in others. And they might still think you don't have executive presence because you're not the jerk who's putting their fist down on the desk and yelling at people. Or, you know, I worked at a place once and meetings.
Lindsay Patterson: Oh, absolutely. And like, I worked at a place once where a gentleman criticized another executive for having a Rolex, like a Rolex watch because he thought that that showed new money. And if he wanted to instill confidence as a leader, [00:11:30] he should at the very least, have a Patek. And I'm like, what? And that's.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. All right, girl, that's two stories already that I'm like, did these things happen in real life? Or are you making this up? Because that is insanity.
Lindsay Patterson: Because we work in male dominated fields. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: And that's ridiculous. And I didn't last super long in that culture because that's not a great one for me. But you have to recognize sometimes those cultures and [00:12:00] okay, that's just what this is here. And I've got to recognize that and either learn to play within those rules or check out and go somewhere else.
Questian Telka: Well, yeah. And like you were saying, confidence, right? Having confidence when you are present in a meeting or you're walking into a room. And like for men, that can often be defined as being assertive, but like that is looked at often very negatively for women when you're talking about executive presence. And so it's like this very two sets [00:12:30] of rules that we're, we're often seeing. So yeah, um.
Nancy McClelland: We, we talked not that long ago question about like being assertive is sometimes equivalent to people thinking you're a bitch. Yes. Like it's that's a really huge double standard there.
Questian Telka: Yeah, exactly. So we have this whole this whole industry built around teaching people, women is who we're talking about here to have more executive [00:13:00] presence. Right. Um, but is it, do you feel like it's essentially flawed because we're really asking, or are we asking women or coaching them to perform at a standard that was built for and by a very specific kind of leader? And, you know, we can talk about what that leader looks like or has in the past too.
Lindsay Patterson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we see that a lot. And I hope that's not what we're going to be doing today. And I don't think everybody does that. But you see that so often in executive [00:13:30] coaching, it's like fit this specific mold, be this certain way. And this is executive presence. But we know it's not like you just said, well, if I do that exact same thing that Michael is doing, he's going to get praised and say people are going to say he stands up for his beliefs. They're going to be like, Lindsey's a bitch. She's aggressive. Like, how often do you hear? And have you guys heard like in performance reviews or other stuff that a male was aggressive?
Nancy McClelland: Never. [00:14:00] Usually. No. Mhm.
Lindsay Patterson: Like that gets assigned to women.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. They use, they use they turn aggressive into assertive. If it's a man. Yes. And that's a good thing. Right. But they don't you don't hear women being like, oh, she's amazing because she's so assertive. It's like, no, if a woman's assertive, that's aggressive. It's it's it is absolutely a double standard. And I want to go back to something that you said earlier when you were talking about how you were in one of these environments where it was defined [00:14:30] in that way, right. Um, that, that you either had to learn to play along with that or leave. And I just want to make sure that the women listening here know that leaving in a situation like that is not failure.
Lindsay Patterson: Yeah, absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: And honestly, even getting fired in a situation like that is not failure. Because if you are in a toxic environment, an environment where like they really are culturally, as you [00:15:00] know, associating this assertiveness aggressiveness concept differently by gender, then, um, I know it can be really, really hard to be asked to leave a job or feel like, well, I couldn't handle it or something like that. And I just wanted to circle back to that to say it is really valid that you have agency here and you have choices about whether you want to be in that kind of environment or not.
Lindsay Patterson: It's such a challenge for women. [00:15:30] And I'll say a lot of people who are in those toxic environments, because you may not immediately have the option to leave, and you want to be able to have that option, right. But also recognizing reality that sometimes I am actively looking for another job and I am trying to survive in this very toxic place. And we can take steps to try to influence culture, but also recognizing like, you're probably not going to be able to completely change a [00:16:00] company culture overnight. And that is such a pressure and stress that we carry with us. So please don't feel like a failure if you're experiencing that. Because in my experience, almost every woman who has worked in our fields or in a male dominated field has experienced this in some way. And when you're like making the comments about, oh my gosh, this happened. I feel like so many women have these stories, right? Yes. Holy cow, that happened. But then we [00:16:30] start talking and it's like, oh wait, we all have stories like this.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And so many of us have. I mean, I certainly have them. So many of us have in the in this process, it's like you stick it out, right? You're, you're taught to like, stay, stay, keep going, forge ahead. And, and I'm just adding to what the two of you are saying and echoing it that it's like, you know, if you can leave when you can. But again, again, like sometimes you, you have to suffer through and like, stay until you, until you find that exit. But, um, [00:17:00] there's like no shame. And in leaving and moving on to a culture and environment that is built for you, right? Or more represents you more effectively. Um, so one of the things that I want to ask is if we are, you know, we're coaching women to have an executive presence, like how can we do that and help them [00:17:30] have that presence in a way that is not coaching them to perform to the standard that was basically built for men.
Lindsay Patterson: Right? So I would say it's recognizing context. So we're not assimilating. We don't want to learn bad behaviors. But you want to remain professional. And what is professional in the situation that you are in. So we're not teaching assimilation. We're just teaching you to be the best version of yourself. And also recognizing the context [00:18:00] in which you're operating, right?
Nancy McClelland: Because the best version of yourself in one context that actually changes based on context, right? The best version that you are, um, working with, uh, nervous small business owners is a very different version of yourself than the best version of yourself that's meeting with the chairman of the board, right? Like those are different. Best version. They're still, they're both me. Mhm. But they are. Those contexts actually are going to define what is [00:18:30] professional in that environment. And what is executive presence in that environment as well?
Lindsay Patterson: Right, right. So like, how do you prepare yourself in all of those situations to be like, I am going to come across confident and put together and I'm going to instill confidence in this person, and they are going to walk away thinking what I want them to think that all require context.
Questian Telka: That's right. And you have so you have a fascinating Lindsay vantage point on this, because you went [00:19:00] from journalism to the AICPA to the EVP suite and one of the most influential organizations in the world in accounting. And you're now an entrepreneur. So that just adds another layer.
Nancy McClelland: How is talking about different contexts? Right. Exactly.
Questian Telka: Yeah, exactly. How is your definition of executive presence shifted and morphed across all of these chapters that you have lived? I mean, you have this incredible resume and have experienced [00:19:30] it in so many different ways that, um, I would love to hear how it's changed.
Lindsay Patterson: I think early on, I had a very traditional view of executive presence, like three piece suit guy Mikey pulling out like a pocket watch. You know, he's speaking aggressively and assertively. I'm like, oh, that guy has executive presence. And if I.
Nancy McClelland: Saw. And I always thought for women, it meant I have to have like a Chanel bag. And I have to have, you know, this kind of jewelry and [00:20:00] this kind of this kind of put togetherness, which I will tell you if we're gonna if we're going to judge me on my ability to try to make that happen, I will fail. Like I'm not good at it. I look, I look like I'm, I'm dressed up for a high school play or something. Like I'm never going to pull that off because it's so not me and I, it took me such a long time to figure out how to get from. Okay, well, I can't do that, but here's my best attempt at that. [00:20:30] Just wearing black clothing and the same jewelry every day. Because like, I didn't know how to do it to figuring out that like, oh no, I can still be me in this context. That was a very long journey. But I thought executive presence was that, you know, that's what you see in a magazine. If you open it up and you've got that woman looking up, I would call her put together, but I'm just as put together. I just am also spazzy, right? Like those aren't those aren't separate from each other.
Lindsay Patterson: Nancy, you haven't seen me [00:21:00] in this light, but I feel like most people who have worked with me in the last few years, like I would say personally that I am put together in meetings or when I'm presenting, but I have I absolutely would roll up to full on office meetings in like a floor length two two gown, and I have a full black suit that I love, but it's 100% sequins like.
Questian Telka: Oh, I love.
Lindsay Patterson: This so.
Nancy McClelland: Much dress, sparkly shirt today. And I'm like, I'm I'm definitely yes, I'm on board, [00:21:30] girl. I'm on board.
Lindsay Patterson: I am all about the black. You guys are seeing like so much color today because I have cream stripes. So this is a big day for Lindsay.
Questian Telka: Me too. I am always trying to add more, but yes, I, I love that you're like, I, I'm gonna rock it. I'm gonna wear my sequins and I'm gonna rock it because this is, this is my philosophy too. Do you feel like that was a big shift for you going from, you know, working in these I mean, you were at AICPA and EVP and things [00:22:00] like that. Did that shift for you substantially when you became an entrepreneur?
Lindsay Patterson: I feel very, very fortunate that when I first interviewed like as a lowly manager at the AICPA, um, I had ombré hair, but the bottom was like neon pink. And that's how I interviewed. And they hired me and they never asked me to change it or diet. Uh, my CEO at the. I was great, like he seemed to love my fashion sense. Um, he probably [00:22:30] thought it was a little ridiculous, but he didn't care. So I was so fortunate to work in cultures that let me be myself. But on the flip side, like if I'm gonna dress like that, I also have the self-awareness of like, I better be prepared and I better be showing up and paying attention in meetings because I think you can stretch, you can get like a little bit of leeway in certain areas, but like, don't try to push every single boundary. Like I'm still showing up prepared and knowing my stuff, reading the materials in advance.
Questian Telka: Well, that's really [00:23:00] the only, that's what's important, right? And kudos to them for embracing, you know, embracing you. And like all of your, you know, uniqueness and accepting and recognizing, I mean, it's important, like we recognize those traits are important in building a culture that is accepting of everyone and their uniqueness and their differences. And then they recognize like the value that brings.
Lindsay Patterson: Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And I have a question [00:23:30] about that though, because I feel like you're both sort of gesturing toward this, and I want to just get concrete and ask straight out, do you feel like if you are going to push some of the boundaries in terms of how you're. So let's say we're going with your definition of executive presence, instilling, instilling confidence in others that you you've got this figured out. So if my company name, for example, is the dancing accountant, that does not instill confidence [00:24:00] in others, that makes it sound like I'm silly and fun and quirky, but it's not something that in and of itself instills confidence. The way that I dress probably doesn't instill confidence in some of the people who might judge me. I feel like I have to be overprepared 120% overdeliver. I've got to be the most incredible presenter or CPE A or whatever the context is. I've got to be the most incredible [00:24:30] ever. In order for them to go, oh, wait a minute, the dancing accountant or that colorful persona are not in conflict with this concept of instilling confidence in others. And it takes them. I feel like it takes some people, most people, probably a moment to judge you for that ombre hair, but then watch you kill it in whatever you just did. Do you feel like you've got to be overprepared if you're going [00:25:00] to use your definition of executive presence as opposed to a more traditional definition?
Lindsay Patterson: Okay, so Nancy, I have good news and bad news for you. The good news is that the center for Talent Innovation did some research around this, and they actually said that gravitas, like how we present ourselves, how we come in that is overwhelmingly what people are looking at when they are determining if somebody has executive presence or not. And then communication was like about a third of it, and appearance [00:25:30] was only like five, 5%. So that's good for you as long as you show up confident. Good news, bad news. I think what you said about women having to be well, you just said you. But I see it as women being overprepared and having to be better. That's just something that we are faced with, particularly in male dominated fields. If I show up and I am just as good as my male colleague, I'm probably going to be viewed as less competent. [00:26:00] And there is a whole body of research to show this. So even if you didn't have, you know, your your name or you're not wearing the Chanel, unfortunately, research shows that we're still going to be perceived as slightly less competent unless we we meet that, you next level. We're overpreparing. We're on top of things in a way that sometimes our male colleagues don't have to be.
Questian Telka: Well, and then there's also good.
Nancy McClelland: And bad news.
Questian Telka: I think Vanessa [00:26:30] Van Edwards does this, and I've talked about this before, talks about this this balance between competence and warmth. So if you're a woman who is additionally also a warm individual, then they tend then people tend to see you as less competent. So it's like you just keep adding to the list.
Nancy McClelland: You have to, you have to have both the competence and the warmth in order to get into that sweet spot.
Questian Telka: But not too much warmth or you're viewed as less competent.
Lindsay Patterson: Right. [00:27:00] And again, you have to know like the context of what that is in every environment. I, how I try to present is kind to people and I want to have empathy. But then also there are going to be certain lines that somebody crosses where I'm going to shut you down hard and knowing well, how far can I go into that without now being assigned that bitch label and oh, I'm not soft enough anymore. So it's an unfair reality that we are all having to [00:27:30] live with. And is it right? No. Should we have to live with it? No. But until we can completely dominate the system, like we have to learn to sometimes work within it.
Nancy McClelland: So. So let's learn for someone who's listening right now and she wants to start building her executive presence. So so you, you right now, who's listening to this? Here's what to do. Lindsay, take it away and go.
Lindsay Patterson: Um, [00:28:00] tell us first, audit yourself, you know, accountants and then audit your environment. So let's look at just yourself first and how you were presenting practice. Like if you were going into a difficult Conversation, asking for a raise. Even just a regular meeting. Like maybe record yourself in advance and watch how you present. Does your body language give off what you're wanting it to give off? Are you saying things [00:28:30] clearly? Do you sound knowledgeable? Watch that playback and say, am I like the confident person that I want to present to this particular audience? And if you have meetings, so many of our meetings are recorded Zoom meetings already. Watch that recording afterward. Watch yourself. It's not fun.
Questian Telka: It's hard. It's not fun. That's exactly right. It's so hard to listen to ourselves.
Nancy McClelland: It's not fun. But you're right. Like we have so many recorded [00:29:00] meeting. Like we have material already, right?
Lindsay Patterson: And like, you can also ask your friends if you have friends or a colleague in the office. I have this lovely group of friends and I'm so thankful for. And we will constantly ask one another like, hey, I'm going into this difficult conversation with my boss and I'm challenging him on some things. Here's how I'm going to present it. What do you guys think? Or we might do like, uh, dress rehearsals essentially for an interview. [00:29:30] Hey, here's the questions that I think I'm going to get asked. Do you have any others? Like just prepare, rehearse what that sounds like. And if you have enough time, this is a lot. It's extra, but I've done it. Record yourself. Do not watch the video. Just listen to how you're speaking. Then watch your body language with no sound on. And then watch them together. Oh, if somebody.
Questian Telka: Just.
Nancy McClelland: Really. Okay. That I've definitely never occurred to me. So. All right, we've got the recording [00:30:00] we're watching just with sound on. Then we're watching just with sound off. I mean, we're not watching with sound on. We're listening with we're only listening and then we're only watching and then we're doing the two together I've never thought to do that. That's genius.
Lindsay Patterson: It's also terrifying and horrifying. And you're like, that's what I look like. But yeah, it is good practice, right?
Questian Telka: That's such a good idea because listening to your own audio with your body at the same time can be really [00:30:30] distracting. So if you are separating the two and watching your body language, it's like, what, what message is my body language sending separately? Right?
Nancy McClelland: Because you know how I'm always joking about the fact that I'm a spaz, but it's also not a joke because I really am. Um, and you know how when you're, um, you're scrolling and they're suggesting videos to you, but they show like the sped up version of the video just as a preview. Okay, so I'm on [00:31:00] a lot of podcasts and we have the She Counts podcast and I do a ton of webinars and sometimes my own content gets advertised back to me because I'm also, you know, I'm also a consumer of these things, right? Yeah. So I'll be scrolling and I'll see me going like this and I'm like, oh my God, Nancy, stop already. I just yes, so that is a fabulous, fabulous suggestion that I am taking away and using [00:31:30] like later today. Literally. That is so smart.
Lindsay Patterson: It's not fun.
Nancy McClelland: But no.
Lindsay Patterson: It's so helpful, especially if you're doing a big presentation. Like very candidly, for every single keynote I give, I have rehearsed that thing so many times and it's helpful not just in how you come across, but if you for some reason, like something's not working, you can't see your notes, you're gonna feel more prepared.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I [00:32:00] mean, and every time I've done a large presentation, something has gone wrong. Oh, like I the last I presented it.
Nancy McClelland: You poor thing. You have had really bad luck.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I had tech issues that were not my fault twice in front of 500 people. So that's fun. But it's like, you know, you just you prepare as much as you can, like you said, and then you just have to, you have to fall back on like what you know, and the fact that you've, that you have the, have the information, you have to roll with it. And that's part of it too, is just being able [00:32:30] to roll with it.
Lindsay Patterson: Well, and I think like part of that dress rehearsal is also the clothes that we're wearing, because you might go on stage and you're like, I'm gonna wear this super cute skirt. It's going to be amazing. But when you actually walk up the stairs in that skirt, you're like, Holy hell, like, I'm gonna fall down. Or, okay, Nancy, I have another.
Nancy McClelland: Thing in this shoes. Rehearsing in the shoes that you're going to wear in real life is so important. That was one of the most important things I learned. Practical things that I that [00:33:00] I learned from theater, public speaking, because I, you know, I realized presenting in my go go boots because that's the style of dance that I do. Presenting my Go-Go boots is actually really good for me because they've got a big, thick heel. And, you know, I often dance on stage when I'm doing a presentation to try to like, get the audience's attention and stuff and doing it in like heels, not good, bad idea. And so I found a way to sort of connect my dancing accountant persona with the presentations [00:33:30] that I'm doing and wear comfortable shoes at the same time. And I learned that because I was rehearsing in really awful shoes, I'm like, I'm gonna kill myself. I'm gonna fall off the stage and land in the laps of the people in the front row.
Lindsay Patterson: I mean, that would probably make good content later, like a different kind of content. But you're gonna be on social. Yeah. Okay. So I had a role a couple years ago, and we were with an outside client meeting on Zoom. Right. Gosh, this is sometimes [00:34:00] where we get, we cross the line on you still got to be professional, right? So this woman shows up to this meeting. She was on my team embarrassingly with external clients. Homegirl was wearing a tube top, y'all a tube top. In case you're wondering what that looks like on Zoom, it looks like you're naked.
Nancy McClelland: Naked, naked. Yes, and I know. Ask me how I know. Go ahead. I know you did this. Nancy did it, and I wear sarongs all the time. And whenever I'm switching into [00:34:30] a meeting, I take the the ties of the sarong, and I put them around my neck so that they can tell that there is clothing on. Yes. Because I have made that mistake. Yeah. Oh.
Lindsay Patterson: Like over a year later, we were meeting with this client and they couldn't even tell you what the meeting was about. It was they were so distracted. They talked about this woman wearing nothing in the meeting. And I was like, well, she actually had a tube top on that didn't sound like you would never wear a tube top to the office for that meeting. And it [00:35:00] made a big enough impact that now I'm like years later talking about it with you guys. So like.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: Don't do that.
Nancy McClelland: So, okay. You're bringing in, you're bringing up the point of how virtual and in-person feel. Genuinely. They're different, right? So in addition to wearing a tube top, what are other things people get wrong on camera? If we're trying to communicate executive presence? Like what? What do people get wrong and what do people get right when like it lands? And you're like, oh, she's got executive presence.
Lindsay Patterson: For on camera. [00:35:30] Like if you're really trying to make a point, be on camera. If you are the presenter and I know that that is not always going to be the case, but it is going to land much stronger than if you are not. And I know we get Zoom fatigue and all of that, but show up, you know, lean in. You know.
Nancy McClelland: That's so interesting. I would not have expected that to be to be your first point, because it would never occur to me not to have my camera on in an important meeting. [00:36:00] But you're right. It happens with my husband all the time. He's a software developer and they'll have their he'll be he'll be presenting like he'll be. He'll be the main person speaking. And he like is bringing me a cup of tea. And I'm like, oh my God, are they going to see me? You know? And he's like, oh no, I have my camera off. I'm like, you are presenting. You cannot just turn off your turn your camera.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Lindsay Patterson: Yes. Yeah. I see this all the time. And I'm like, okay, what are you doing?
Questian Telka: Like, I mean, we would all love [00:36:30] maybe we wouldn't all love, but I would love to do that. But I would never, I certainly would not feel comfortable. But you're right. I see it too. It's like you go into meetings. I have never actually seen someone be the main presenter in a meeting and not have their camera on, though that's definitely like I would that would be like, I would be like, what's happening right now? Is your camera broken? What's wrong?
Nancy McClelland: I can't see someone's eyes. If I can't see that, I, I don't trust them. Like that is a very important you know, you mentioned [00:37:00] mentioned Vanessa Van Edwards actually earlier question. She also talks about how important it is for people to be able to see your hands when you first come out on stage to be like, hi, how are you? Look, I'm not holding a weapon. Right? Yeah.
Questian Telka: You don't have your hands behind your back.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Right. For me to not be able to see somebody's eyes in a Zoom meeting would definitely impact how much I trusted that person.
Questian Telka: So this is fun. Yeah. I'm like, what else? Tell me more. Great.
Lindsay Patterson: You [00:37:30] know, good lighting, good sound. I feel like I'm about to jinx myself because I'm in my New York apartment right now. But again, if you're the main presenter, try to be in a more quiet location where there's not going to be like construction going on outside of your apartment, that's distracting. I'm going to wait any second. That's going to happen now. Don't scroll. You know, multitask. We all do these things, I do it. I am just as guilty. But consider again, how do you want to present? Am I [00:38:00] speaking? Am I trying to make an impact? Am I trying to convince someone on this call? Consider your context, as I said earlier, and adjust accordingly.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, yes, that is that is all excellent. I love it. Um, and then like when it really lands, when a person on Zoom or actually, let's say in person, either when a woman really lands, what are like a few things where if you went back and you replayed it, I was going to say in your head, but now that you've [00:38:30] given me this idea of rewatching stuff just with sound or just with okay, but let's say you're replaying it, whether it's in your head or you're watching the video or whatever, what are like one, two, or three things where you're like, that was that was it? That was what? And again, I love your definition of executive presence. You, what made them, um, what instilled the audience with confidence that they brought to it?
Lindsay Patterson: They are speaking confidently, which means [00:39:00] they're not going too fast. They're not going too slow. They're not going on and on and on. They made their point. They justified it if necessary. Moved on. And then and this is for me, if I'm in a meeting and there's lots of people going, you know, communicating and talking and talking over each other. I personally love to see it when a woman is standing firm, and if a gentleman or even another woman starts to like, talk over her, not [00:39:30] out of excitement, because we all do that, but you know, more of the disrespect or trying to own the conversation. Just hold your ground, keep your composure. Don't get too upset, even though you're probably feeling it on the inside. I know I am, but just to remain calm, have that composure. I think that is very challenging, but for me personally, I'm able to do that better when I prepare. So if you are listening, I would encourage you to prepare. When you're going into those meetings, am I going to get challenged? Is, you know, Bob over here going to interrupt me like he always [00:40:00] does. Well, how am I going to respond?
Questian Telka: React.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: That's so important. Like kind of planning for those things that you know, are happening in advance. This is off topic of the Zoom a little bit, but this goes back to me when I got I was super shy, couldn't be on camera a couple. This was like, I mean, how many years ago? Nancy? Like 3 or 4.
Nancy McClelland: Um, yeah, it's funny because, you know, Lindsay, you don't know this probably, but question actually used to be a contractor for my firm, the dancing [00:40:30] accountant. So I knew her back when she was like terrified to have her camera on or say anything in a Zoom meeting. So I remember those days.
Lindsay Patterson: Question.
Lindsay Patterson: I would not have believed this about you.
Questian Telka: I know, right, it's totally different now, but what I was going to say was like, one of the first things that I was trying to work on was like, when I walked up and introduced myself to someone. So this was a few years ago, like this was before. This was when I was just starting to take on the challenge of like, being able to stand up and speak. [00:41:00] And I was so nervous to just meet someone. So what I was going to say is that first interaction that someone has with another person is very impactful on creating a this, this feeling of executive presence. So I know that you will say like you're looking that what people look for is confidence. But like, can you go deeper and explain like that first moment in interaction? Like how can you establish an executive presence and what is that confidence look like?
Lindsay Patterson: Yes. [00:41:30] And unfortunately, some of the research here does support traditional gender norms. But when you come in like, you know, shoulders back, head held high, you're looking out confidently, you're not looking down. Like research shows that that makes people think that you are a more confident person. And oftentimes you'll see people like fold in on themselves or cross their arms. You don't want to do that. And I, I personally have actively [00:42:00] thought about in meetings like the Manspreading I do.
Nancy McClelland: I do that. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yeah, take up space, take up space.
Lindsay Patterson: Because I have every right to be here. And I know that. And I'm going to show that with my body and you're going to see that too. And is that a more masculine trait? Yes. Does the research show that it is perceived as confidence also? Yes.
Nancy McClelland: All right. I love [00:42:30] it. That's another one of those good news, bad news things. I mean it definitely. Well I mean it's this double bind, right? You know, we were talking earlier. Research consistently shows that these things assertiveness, taking up space, projecting authority there. It's that too much aggressive, difficult. It's so like, so how do you navigate that double bind?
Lindsay Patterson: I do what works for me, and every woman is going to do what works best for her. But at this point in my career, I'm [00:43:00] not super worried about it anymore. I'm going to be me. And if you think I'm aggressive, I cannot manage every person's perception. Can I recognize cultural norms? Can I operate within a level of professionalism? Can I show up as the best version of myself? Yes. Can I worry all day long about what every random person thinks about me? No, I don't have time for that.
Questian Telka: Well, in the bottom line is we're not going to be everyone's cup of tea, right? And so like, the sooner we can accept the fact that there [00:43:30] are people who are just not going to like us, they're just not going to have high opinion of us.
Nancy McClelland: Question do you remember when Justine Lachey was on the show? She was like, all people are not your people. No, that's okay.
Questian Telka: That's okay.
Nancy McClelland: Every person does not need to be your person. That's okay. That's a good.
Lindsay Patterson: I heard this from like a movie or a TV show. I can't even remember which one. So I'm sure some listeners gonna, like, be like, oh, was this show? Uh, but it was like, you could be the most round, juiciest peach on the tree. [00:44:00] And there's always going to be somebody who doesn't like peaches.
Questian Telka: That's right. Oh.
Nancy McClelland: That's so good.
Questian Telka: It's true. He'd be the best peach that there is. And someone just. It's like me with beans, I hate beans. You can be the best beans ever made.
Nancy McClelland: But how did we never know that about each other? I don't know, kind of.
Questian Telka: I so random thought.
Nancy McClelland: I just learned something new.
Questian Telka: So I want to get a little bit provocative here. Um, and we already.
Nancy McClelland: Kind of. [00:44:30]
Questian Telka: Have. Right. So at what point does coaching women on executive presence put the burden on us as females to fix a structural problem? Like, is there a version of this conversation where we're essentially asking women to be better? And we've touched on this already at assimilating.
Lindsay Patterson: Yeah, I'm going to have possibly a provocative answer so y'all can push back.
Nancy McClelland: Oh good. Because it was a provocative question. So I think that that works out perfectly for everyone.
Lindsay Patterson: Oh good. So I [00:45:00] would say yes, we're asking women to do this. You know why. Because nobody else is going to do it for us. People in power are not just going to hand us power. Like that's not how power systems work. We have to get in and we have to change it ourselves. And there are going to be some great allies in this, and we love them. We want them next to us. But in my experience, we're not just going to be handed something from the powers that be. They're not going to be like, oh, well, women interact this way, so. [00:45:30]
Nancy McClelland: The world's not going to dominate itself. We've got to. Exactly.
Questian Telka: That's exactly why we're here, right? That's why we're doing this. This is what we're doing.
Lindsay Patterson: We're going to work within the systems as much as, you know, we feel comfortable doing. So we're always going to push boundaries. And as we on this call, as other women who are listening in, as we rise to power, not only are we going to instill our own cultural norms, but I think then you'll start to see cultures [00:46:00] change because it's like, oh, like this is also executive presence. This is also power. It's not going to be overnight. That's not how any culture changes, including office cultures. So I do think that we have to get in there, but also I'm okay with getting in and usurping power and dominating. And I hope all of your listeners will.
Nancy McClelland: I feel like, yeah, I feel like you're answering both of, of questions, most recent questions, uh, at the same time, which I, which I love, which [00:46:30] is I, I am not going to let what they think of me, what they might think of me affect me. And on the other hand, I am going to work within this existing power structure. So, um, you know, to me that's like when executive presence means helping women lead more effectively because they in being themselves and in bringing their best version of themselves to that specific context, [00:47:00] it's useful. And they can use the existing power structures to, you know, leverage that in that context. But when people are using executive presence to teach women how to make bias, like more comfortable, then it goes back to what you were saying earlier, you're not trying to teach assimilation. We're not assimilating. So you're doing both of those at the same time, which I feel like is is challenging, but.
Lindsay Patterson: It's a fine.
Nancy McClelland: Line.
Lindsay Patterson: That we have to figure out. And then I would also encourage us, like [00:47:30] looking at this call right now, we're all three white women, recognizing that even our cultural norms are not going to be the same across other cultures, because I have also seen things that I can get away with. And a black female colleague has not. And yes, you.
Questian Telka: Know, absolutely.
Lindsay Patterson: We don't want that to be acceptable either. Right. We need to be creating systems that allow for all of these different like executive presence possibilities. So as we do rise in that power, ideally, we are creating [00:48:00] systems that are representative of broader cultures and not just our own, because I think we can easily fall into that. And I don't think any of us want to.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And you have to be intentional. We have to be really intentional in making sure that we're doing that. We're not just building executive presence, like you said, in women alone, like we want to recognize the executive presence and the differences in the cultural diversity that we have, because that is creating [00:48:30] that is what, um, you know, it propels everyone in the way that it should and it teaches everyone. I mean, it's just valuable in every role and walk of life to have that, that diversity. I mean, the data. If you can't recognize that as a human being just in general, then look at the data because the data proves it so.
Lindsay Patterson: Right. And also just being a good person.
Questian Telka: Exactly.
Lindsay Patterson: All experienced these challenges. And I'm like, man, I don't want to make somebody else feel like that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, [00:49:00] absolutely. And that was actually something earlier when we were talking about, um, having to do extra preparation so that you're delivering at like 120% in order to get people to take you seriously or, um, you know, to, to see that quote unquote executive presence in, however they are seeing it with black women. Oh my gosh, amplify 170%. Right?
Questian Telka: Yes, exactly.
Lindsay Patterson: And I think that we've probably [00:49:30] all seen cases where there are individuals who want to be allies and say they are allies, but we also have these subconscious biases, and we hold women, white women, black women, black men, two different standards, and trying to check those as much as we can as we are evaluating others for executive presence as well.
Nancy McClelland: Which takes some honest conversation, which is, is hard. It's very uncomfortable.
Lindsay Patterson: Yeah, it absolutely is.
Questian Telka: It takes a lot of introspection [00:50:00] and thinking about like your decisions and again, like intent, intentionality. So yeah, um, I want to ask you, what's one thing you wish someone had told you, um, earlier in your career that you would have learned earlier, you know, like maybe going into that, that first story you told us, um, about how to have that presence about showing up about leadership, um, what's, what's something that someone could have told [00:50:30] you that would have saved you some pain or time?
Lindsay Patterson: Yeah. I don't know that it would have saved me any pain because I don't know that I would have listened, But like.
Nancy McClelland: So if somebody had told you, stay in that room, stay in that room. Right. No matter what would. Right. You've been like, no, because I'm just I'm just sitting here in a chair crying. Like, no, I'm not going to stay in the room.
Lindsay Patterson: I wouldn't have had that confidence. But I wish I knew then [00:51:00] that most people are faking it. Like all the confidence that I see from other people, or I think they're so capable or so intelligent, and they are in their own ways. But I'm like, man, most humans are just faking it every single day. We are just doing our best, trying to get by. And I think that would have helped some because I.
Nancy McClelland: Think that is something that I have. I love that you said that because I have I get asked that question in interviews a lot. And, [00:51:30] um, I just think that my young self was waiting for that moment in life where I became the confident adult.
Lindsay Patterson: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Right. Like when, when does child go away and confident adult start? And when I realized that that line doesn't exist and a lot of us are carrying that scared child inside us until we die. Yes. Then you're like, oh, cool. Well, then I can start taking care of that scared kid [00:52:00] because I'm also a confident adult. Like we coexist inside our bodies in that way.
Lindsay Patterson: And there's different parts of us.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I was going to say that one of the ways that something you said resonated with me, Lindsay, is like this not realizing that people were faking it. And I always thought I never it took me until my adulthood and three tries before, not because I didn't have the knowledge, but mostly because I had horrible ADHD and I couldn't like, stick to it. I [00:52:30] mean, I but to graduate, like to finally like graduate and get my degree. It took me a long time. Multiple tries and I thought I was lacking some, you know, like, I just assumed that everyone else was so confident they knew what they were doing that I was lacking some piece of knowledge. And then when I went and finished my degree, I was like, that was it.
Nancy McClelland: I mean.
Questian Telka: Maybe I shouldn't say that, but like I, you know, I finished it and I was like, I didn't really need that. Like, I, I'm not really sure. I learned a whole lot. [00:53:00]
Nancy McClelland: I told you that I cannot even tell you how many times I told you that you did not need your degree, but in the end, you needed that degree. For you.
Questian Telka: It was a.
Nancy McClelland: Because it does make you more confident, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Not necessarily the things you learned.
Lindsay Patterson: How many times do you see people who you were younger and they were like, your boss, your boss is boss. And you're like, oh my gosh, that person so impressive. And they stay on that roll and you rise up. And once you're their peer, you're like, actually, you're kind of an idiot.
Nancy McClelland: Maybe. Maybe not.
Questian Telka: I [00:53:30] love that. I love that.
Nancy McClelland: Well, as we wrap up, I want to I want I want you to leave, um, our, our listeners with one final sort of encompassing thought here. What Lindsey, what do you want to say to the woman who's listening right now who feels like she just doesn't have this, this executive presence thing that you keep talking about? She does not have it and she isn't sure that [00:54:00] she ever will.
Lindsay Patterson: Confidence is just preparation. If you do something enough times, you will come across confident you will have that executive presence.
Questian Telka: That's amazing. I think that's like a perfect way to wrap up. It's an incredible piece of advice. Um, and I, I completely agree myself.
Lindsay Patterson: And then I'm going to even take it a step further. I'm going to offer something because I mentioned I have this amazing group of friends that I feel [00:54:30] so lucky to have because I recognize that not every woman has a close group of professional friends that she can rely on.
Nancy McClelland: Which is one of the reasons that we started this podcast is that we wanted it to mimic for women who don't have that, we wanted it to mimic our our whatsapps with that, you know, with our professional, our groups of professional women. So absolutely, yes, some people don't have that.
Lindsay Patterson: If you don't have that and you're listening and you're like, oh, I have this like interview coming up, literally [00:55:00] connect with me on LinkedIn and say that and be like, would you just talk to me about this? And I'm happy to other women did that for me.
Questian Telka: Lindsay. I love that you are so amazing.
Lindsay Patterson: I am here because other women advocated for me and supported me. So we got the same.
Nancy McClelland: I love you so much. I love you so much. This has been such an amazing conversation. I always learned so much when I get to co-host this show [00:55:30] and we have an incredible guest like you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. We'd like to thank you for having me. Oh, yes. Absolutely. We'd like to ask listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and join in on this conversation by sharing under Lindsay's episode presence, not performance. Is there one thing that you're going to try differently the next time you walk into a room or join a Zoom call? Share [00:56:00] it with us and if you can, let us know how it goes.
Questian Telka: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Maya Angelou. I've learned that people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, I love Maya Angelou. That is such a great quote. Thank you all so much for being here with us on She Counts. Especially you, Lindsay. [00:56:30] It's just been wonderful. The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen, heard, and to Lindsay's point, never alone.
Questian Telka: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening@earmark.app. Links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsor solution. And any other resource will be [00:57:00] in the show notes.
Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps other women find the podcast and share. If you're liking it with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too. Let's create some of that community.
Questian Telka: Lindsay, I am so happy that I met you at a conference and got to know you and found another, you know, another feminist to join us and come on the show. [00:57:30] And, um, I'm just. I'm so happy that you came on and that you were here with us today. I learned a ton myself. Um, and I just, I think this was a really good topic. So I'm really happy that you, um, that you brought it up.
Lindsay Patterson: Well, thank you so much. And it was so great to meet you. I love meeting other, like, strong, powerful women. So this is my like niche group.
Nancy McClelland: Oh that's amazing. Your niche group strong, powerful women, I love it. That's a good niche to have. That's [00:58:00] a good niche to have. I'm so glad that I learned your definition of executive presence, that concept of instilling confidence in others, that you're the person for the job. That is. I'm going to carry that with me for sure. Thank you for being here, and we will see everyone in two weeks. Take care.