Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Questian Telka
Nancy McClelland: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Questian Telka: Because if you feel like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't [00:00:30] have to figure it out alone. Just like Erin said at the very beginning of the conference today.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season three sponsors, Bill Riley and Carbon. We're so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at accounts dot show. And for those who are live in attendance at wave, you can go visit the relay [00:01:00] booth right there.
Questian Telka: And if you want to support the podcast, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform that helps get the podcast out there. People can find us easier. Um, you know, only if it's going to be a good review.
Nancy McClelland: And remember, you can go to earmark dot PPP to earn CPE credit. And please follow the podcast on LinkedIn to join in the conversation.
Questian Telka: For today's episode. [00:01:30] Nancy and I are recording live at a conference for women called Wave Seattle. And Wave stands for Women in Accounting and Finance, Visionaries and entrepreneurs. Did I get that right? You got it. Awesome. We're here with the woman who made it all possible. A frequent guest on the podcast who we so love having Aaron Cohen, creator of Wave Seattle.
Nancy McClelland: Erin is [00:02:00] a dear friend, not just to us, but to many in the accounting industry. A passionate advocate for community and connection within our profession, she's not only the creator of Wave Seattle, but also an active leader in communities like Asca, CPA, and counter. She's generous with sharing her experiences, questions, and insights on LinkedIn. So if you're not following her there, please do. And she somehow manages to do all of this while running. Upkeeping, a modern, fractional accounting firm focused [00:02:30] on helping businesses truly understand their finances. Known for her warmth, leadership, and people first approach, Erin has become a respected and beloved voice in the profession and a connector who brings others together. Erin moderated our first live audience show at Bridging the Gap last year, and so it was natural to have her do it again at wave.
Questian Telka: That was one of my favorite recordings.
Nancy McClelland: Me too.
Questian Telka: Yeah. As you guys know, some of [00:03:00] you. Anyway, we really like to launch all of our episodes with some sort of a story. And today, we are asking for Aaron to share her story behind the inspiration for creating Wave Seattle.
Erin Pohan: I did not read that whole paragraph. Paragraph blurb that you wrote out. I was just like, oh, they're just going to talk about what I do. And that was really cool to sit here as we're talking about success. And I've been introducing so many incredible speakers and panelists and wave makers all day. Sometimes [00:03:30] when you hear it come out of someone else's mouth, you're like, damn, that's me. Like, we're doing this. Let's go. And this is five years in to starting my own accounting firm up keeping. And this is what is what year are we in 2026, right? Two years into deciding that my voice was worthy of sharing and having space in this industry. I went [00:04:00] to QuickBooks connect and I saw so many people who actually knew each other when they walked into that conference, and I was like, how do they do that? Don't they sit at their desks all day like I do? And like, it just didn't make any sense to me.
Questian Telka: And then we tried to get away by conferencing right away from our desks. Yeah, yeah.
Erin Pohan: But it's true. You find your people at conferences and in the hallways, especially [00:04:30] in the hallways in those conversations. I went to a few of those QuickBooks connect conferences thinking and wishing, wow, I wish I had that for myself. It would be really nice to have that kind of community and that true friendship. And it was not until I went to Bridging the Gap in 2024, which I've shared this story so many times, where I I walked in and Nancy and wears diamond Jennifer diamond she. [00:05:00] Hairstyle and Roman Villard were all at a table and I walk up to that table and I say, I follow you guys on LinkedIn. It's so nice to meet you. And they all turn their entire body to me and looked me in the eye and wanted to know who I was. And in that moment I felt seen. And when I left Bridging the Gap, this was 2024. I did [00:05:30] not want to wait another year to experience that again. I also didn't want to hop on a plane to Vegas or Florida to experience it again. I brought it back to Seattle. It was my conference afterglow, and I wanted to see if I threw something out there, if people would come. And so we had an evening wave event, and there was so much forward momentum from it that I thought, you know what? I've been posting on LinkedIn every [00:06:00] day. Let me go ahead and just say something on LinkedIn. And we had so many people who rallied. We had speakers, sponsors, attendees. Last year was the first year. This is our second year. Last year we had women from ten different states in Canada who were like, yes, sign me up. I want community. They don't care where they have to go. They just wanted to have the conversations that we all need to have to help support us through whatever [00:06:30] we're building. And so today is our second one. We are at the end. We did it, we did it, we did it. And that's my story. That's how this was all created.
Nancy McClelland: I love that story that makes me so happy, especially the the bridging the gap origin story, because anybody who knows me knows. Bridging the gap is my number one favorite conference. Although now today at Wave was so incredible. Bridging the gaps got a run for its money.
Erin Pohan: Oh, Randy.
Nancy McClelland: Randy, [00:07:00] we're coming for you. Um. Watch out. We're gonna do a Q&A today. And, um, Aaron has prepared some questions ahead of time. And we also have a QR code that is up. Uh, it is in the, um, agenda booklet on the She Counts page. And it's also up on this screen over here. So if you'd like to submit a question about anything that you have heard today, we'll try to answer it. Anything about being a woman in accounting, the real talk, [00:07:30] the things people won't say out loud. And we encourage you, uh, not just to ask questions to us, but to think about how you would answer each of these questions. And at the happy hour and the after party, please let these fuel the conversation as we honestly share with each other.
Erin Pohan: After everything that we have heard today? What's one definition of success you've personally outgrown?
Nancy McClelland: Something that I brought up [00:08:00] at the Wave Makers meeting when we were planning for our wave maker, our. The mentorship. Our. Earlier today, I had a really horrible experience. Um, that I'm guessing there's some other people in the room who've had something like this happen to them. You know, I've been running this firm, the dancing accountant, for 25 years, and they haven't all been rosy. As a matter of fact, I would I would say fewer than half of those years have been rosy in any way, shape or form. And one of the reasons for that [00:08:30] was that I did determine what success meant to me early on. I like Cory Jankowski, who I was talking to earlier. I wanted to work in the business, not on the business. I didn't want to have a staff. I didn't want to have to manage other people's schedules, deliverables, quality of their work. And I was really happy being that way. And I loved my job so much. And [00:09:00] a negative that came from attending conferences was that somebody, um, from a, from a large vendor that, uh, is no longer in existence because they got gobbled up by another vendor. Somebody from that vendor was asking me about my business model and how I work. And they said that I was stupid. And they said, yeah, it was so rude. I was younger then, right? Like I responded differently [00:09:30] than I responded differently, both in person and emotionally than I would respond at age 54.
Nancy McClelland: I responded really in an unhealthy way, which was to think, oh, he was probably right because he said, you're avoiding scaling and you're leaving money on the table. Now, at age 54, I can tell you I don't want to scale. I don't like scaling. I don't like scaling. I'm not good at managing a team. I [00:10:00] am good at finding people who can manage themselves and each other. I'm good at finding good people, but I'm not good at managing them. I'm really, really good at meeting with clients. I'm really good at that, and I'm really, really good at preparing tax ready books and teaching people how to do that. So why would I scale? And I came to the conclusion, and this is how I left this definition, somebody else's definition of success. Like Nicole Davis was telling us earlier, I left their definition [00:10:30] of success on the floor when I decided, you know what? I am leaving money on the table. The table can keep it. I don't want it. There are other people who will grab for it. I want to build something that is going to bring me joy and freedom and allow me to do what I really want to do the most, which is to speak and to teach. And the the sad side of that story is that it [00:11:00] took me over a decade to dig out from the mess that I made by listening to what he had to say.
Questian Telka: My experience is a different story, but a very similar outcome. I, um, when I started my firm, it's like same thing. Scale, scale, scale, um, what's your revenue? How high can you get? What point? How much money can you make? Right? How high can you get your revenue? What's your headcount? If you don't have a team of 20, [00:11:30] then you know, you're, you're not really a firm. You're what is the saying? People say you're, you're, you have a job like a, you know, it's a job. It's not a, it's not a business. Right. And so it's like.
Nancy McClelland: And by the way, I disagree with that. I think that's just a shit thing to say.
Questian Telka: I disagree entirely. Yeah. And so it took me a long time to kind of get to the point where I realized, too, that I am not great at managing people, and I actually hate it. Um, you know, I would much rather spend my time, um, servicing my clients [00:12:00] than trying to manage a team. And so I kind of, this actually was very much recent for me. I don't remember when you went through this. It was a few years ago, but this happened to me more in the last year. And so I'm still in the middle of this transition, transitioning out of having a team and being a firm of one. So that's like currently I am offboarding certain clients. I no longer have a team and it's just myself because I've redefined what my idea of success is, which is, um, [00:12:30] you know, most profit with the least amount of work. I want to enjoy the work that I'm doing. And I was doing a lot of bookkeeping and accounting work. And that is not where my talent is. My talent is acting as a CFO for nonprofits. That's my favorite type of work. And so I've just completely I've, I basically fired almost all of my clients and transitioned into entirely nonprofit [00:13:00] CFO work. And. It's given me the ability to make a lot more money with a lot fewer clients and a lot less time than I was spending before. And the one of the most important things for me is to be able to have time. Like I want to live my life. I feel like I've been grinding for so long and I'm tired of grinding. I'm exhausted. I don't want to do it anymore. I want to enjoy the work that [00:13:30] I've put in and the knowledge that I've built. So, um, you know, I've just kind of thrown all of the traditional ideas of success out the window and it's kind of perfect timing.
Nancy McClelland: I want to interrupt you on that one. Yeah. Um, making as much money as possible for as little work as possible. That that that's what some people's traditional definition.
Questian Telka: Oh yeah I.
Nancy McClelland: Suppose. Right.
Questian Telka: I suppose so. Yeah. But I mean it's also within that it is like, you know, providing incredible [00:14:00] work to my clients and working specifically with non-profits because it fills my cup. So it's not just about the money, but I do want to do the least amount of work that I can and profit.
Erin Pohan: What's something women in accounting and finance are finally giving themselves permission to do differently?
Questian Telka: I think it's, um, for me, and I see it with Nancy, and I see it with a lot of women that you talk to is like fully embracing who [00:14:30] you are. And for me, that means accepting the fact that I am incredibly feminine. I am very emotional. And, um, you know, I've been told my entire life you're too emotional, you know, to be a leader. You need to, um, think more just logically and remove the emotion. And I completely disagree with that. And so just kind of leaning into that and accepting and embracing this is who I am. [00:15:00] And I see more women doing that and giving them selves permission to do so. And I think it's incredible.
Nancy McClelland: I want to riff off of that very specifically. I was speaking with my, uh, my bestie over there, Melissa Miller Ferguson, about this last night. Um, and it's related to that. It's this concept of embracing vulnerability and honesty and letting our [00:15:30] true selves shine through. Not, not just in an environment like this with colleagues, but to our clients. My clients were. They were actually kind of weirded out when I used to wear a suit because they're quirky. They are colorful, they are vibrant. And so they want to work with somebody who gets them. And as I leaned into the personality [00:16:00] that I have and, um, let that come out and rebranded as the dancing accountant, um, I actually found that there were more people who wanted to work with me because they want someone who's real. So I think it's important to be real on social media. And I think it's important to be real with each other as colleagues. Um, but I would love to see more permission, given that we're giving permission to each other to do this with our clients as well. Um, and I know [00:16:30] that this room has sort of self-selected for being a lot of those people who are more comfortable with that. I'm looking at Kim Kelleher right now because you are definitely someone who brings your full self to your work. You're somebody who I I'm absolutely sure if your clients tried to describe you, they would probably, they would probably get it pretty close to right because you let them see who you are as an individual. There are lots of other women I could call out in this room who are doing that, and I think that that's [00:17:00] a message that we should be bringing to the profession as a whole.
Erin Pohan: What is one moment today that made you feel seen?
Nancy McClelland: So I was at lunch, I wrote, I wrote this down so I'd make sure to remember who all was there. It was Brittany Brown, Anisha Velasquez, Hope Brown, and Shelly Rodgers. And we were sitting at a table talking about, um, well, actually it was really, it was really fun because it was Brittany talking [00:17:30] about her program that she's doing at, at the university, um, where she's she's kind of transitioned to doing course designing. Case study designing and teaching at this point. And it makes me. Of course, I run ask a CPE. We. We teach bookkeepers to prepare tax ready books. And I said, hey, Brittany, have you talked to Alicia Katz Pollock? She's got this really cool thing that she's doing in her business where, you know, the, the bookkeepers that are taking her [00:18:00] courses are actually learning on real clients and she's paying them as employees and they're paying her for this training. You guys should talk with each other. And I said, we had her on the podcast recently because we did a crossover episode of, um, of the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast, and she counts and Shelly's like, oh yeah, Brittany, you really should listen to that episode. And she starts talking about like all of the stuff that she learned from listening to that episode. And I felt like that [00:18:30] scene in when Harry met Sally, where Carrie Fisher says that thing about the quiche and and, um, Bruno Kirby is like you quoted me back to me. No one's ever done that before. It was such an amazing experience. But then it got better because we spent the entire rest of lunch talking about how to teach people to prove the balance sheet and how important that is. And we were like, oh, we don't get to do this very often. You can tell it's an [00:19:00] accounting conference and it was wonderful.
Questian Telka: So for me, there were two moments. The first one was when Nicole Davis was speaking and she said, is your definition of success buying more shoes? That's definitely one of mine. And the second was when, uh, Lynette was speaking and talking about burnout and kind of the phases of where you are and, um, rebuilding. And [00:19:30] that's kind of, you know, I'm kind of in between. I think it was, I can't remember what the second one was, but it was like C and rebuilding the second and between the second and third phase, like in the rebuild process and just everything that she was, how she was describing it was and.
Nancy McClelland: It was crash.
Questian Telka: Yeah, it was crash. You're right. Crash engineer. Yeah. Yeah. So the crash happened recently and now kind of re-engineer. That's right. You know, sometimes the words just aren't aren't there. That really resonated for me because [00:20:00] I've been trying to manage that, um, for a while. All of the, the work life balance that is being a business owner and a mom to two boys and moving and, um, yeah, all the things I just, you, you get all of the things, all the things.
Erin Pohan: All the things. If everyone in this room left with just one mindset shift, what would [00:20:30] you hope it is?
Nancy McClelland: Can I give you two things?
Erin Pohan: Because I'll.
Nancy McClelland: Allow it. All right. Thank you. Erin is nothing if not generous and kind. Um. All right. So what I what I had initially intended to say here was that, um. I mentioned earlier that this is a self-selecting group, right? And, and so what I was going to say is you don't have to do this alone. You don't [00:21:00] have to do this alone. Everything that I do in my life is about helping people feel less alone. Like literally everything. And I want to spread that message far and wide. And I, I want this podcast to find the women who do not have what we have in this room right now. And so when I first decided to answer this question, you know, like you [00:21:30] need to know. You don't have to do it alone. And then I spent a day at this conference. You already know that you don't have to do this alone because you're in this room. You bought a ticket, and some of us flew across the country to get here. I know hope came all the way from DC. Is that are you the farthest one? Anybody come from farther than DC? Where'd you come from, Jamie? Eastern shore of Maryland. That is slightly okay. Nia, where'd you come from? Oh, Baltimore. That's right. I know where you.
Erin Pohan: Also have Florida and Boston [00:22:00] in the house.
Nancy McClelland: Florida and Boston in the house. Okay, so it's not a regional. This is not a regional conference. You thought you were building a regional conference and you you got us you got us all. So I would argue that, um, that what I really want you to take away is not just that you don't have to do it alone, but that you have other people in your life that need to be taught that they Don't have to do [00:22:30] it alone. That women. All of us. No woman has to do this alone. And so I sort of want to end that with a challenge and a request to say we knew this before we came here. Right? It's one of the reasons that we are here because we don't want to do it alone. So we're at wave, right? Well, there are a lot of people in your lives who don't know that yet. So when you get back to your offices, as you're digesting all of this, think [00:23:00] of one of those people who might need you to reach out and give them permission to not do it alone.
Questian Telka: I would say that I echo that entirely, and I would also add to throw all of the rules out the window. Create your own path. Make your own rules. Just figure out your why. As you know, we've reiterated over and over define what success is to you and don't listen to or look at what anyone [00:23:30] else is doing. Don't compare. Just do what works for you and you will be so much happier. Don't spend all the years that Nancy and I spent trying to figure out what that meant to us. Don't be us. Pretty well. I like to look.
Erin Pohan: At it like I'm just gonna live in my happy little bubble. Sometimes it's just good to be in that little, little focused area of just your happy, your happy place and just build that way. And then when you need [00:24:00] some support, it's there too. I think there, there is a balance of having people who are speaking into your life and what you're doing and making sure it's the right voices that are speaking.
Questian Telka: Oh, that's so important. Yeah. I took advice from, you know, I started my business and I was taking advice from people who were not business owners in my family. And they kept telling me, just, just start, just start, just go. And I knew that I didn't have the structure and the internal processes in place. And, you know, I [00:24:30] come from an operational background and I was like, I'm not ready. I'm not there. And they kept pushing me to do it and I did it. And then I felt like I was drinking from a fire hose because I had not prepared to. I was prepared to not have enough clients. I wasn't prepared to have too many clients. And so to your point, listening to the correct people, um, people who, you know, understand where you're coming from and also. [00:25:00] Can be, uh, a positive.
Erin Pohan: Absolutely. Which kind of leads into this next question. And I think we have a ton of questions from the audience. I really want to dive into those. So this will be our last kind of sort of pre-planned question. Who are the people you turn to then for guidance, perspective, truth telling in your life or business, your board of directors for your life?
Nancy McClelland: So Erin came up with that question when she came back from an entrepreneur. Session that she had gone [00:25:30] to, and she was just on fire for anybody who follows her on LinkedIn. It was just like post after post after post about what this group means to her and how inspired she was after. After leaving this group and they had this whole conversation about your, your personal board of directors, like, you know, if, if you're the CEO, then who's your chairman and who else is sitting around that big table? Um, for me, it's definitely my husband, partially [00:26:00] because I'm a verbal processor and he's very introverted. And so he, I'll just be blah.
Nancy McClelland: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Nancy McClelland: And he's like taking it all in and he's soaking it up and he's sifting through it and he's a software developer. So he's analyzing and sorting.
Questian Telka: Don't you call him your personal LM.
Nancy McClelland: He is. He is the best large language model ever. So good because I just I just talk and talk [00:26:30] and talk and he thinks about it all. Now he's a little less talky than ChatGPT, uh, to be sure. But yeah, he really is. And he's wonderful. And so one of the things that's, that's really helpful there. And the reason I'm mentioning this in particular is that whoever you're picking to be the chairman of that board should be someone who can sift through the noise that you're making, because I can't always hear the problems [00:27:00] as they're surfacing. And I want to give you a really specific example. I had a client who was an extremely famous chef. Um, you know, she was on the cover of Food and Wine and, um, magazine, she was very well known, wrote a book, uh, but man, she was a really difficult character, very, very impulsive. And, uh, boy, I just felt like I was always running around trying to protect her from herself. It was very stressful. And her lawyer and I got into a big, big, [00:27:30] big fight at one point, and he fired me and I was like, you can't do that. And she was like, well, I, you know, I don't really know what to do. You know, he's, he, I feel like I have to listen to him. And I was so upset and I was starting to argue with her about how desperately she needs me in her life because I was offended. And I was like, no, you're not firing me. This is not the way this is going down. And my husband's grabbing my arm over here and I'm pushing him away, you know, like this. And and [00:28:00] he leans over and says into my ear, Nancy, this is freedom run! And I realized he was right.
Nancy McClelland: She was the worst client ever. I loved her, and I was proud of working with her, but she was a terrible client. And when he said that, I was like, he heard all the times that I vented. You know, he took all of those [00:28:30] things and they added up to a number that was the correct number. I was not filtering that information and sifting it and organizing it. So whoever the chairman of your board is needs to be able to do that. And then the other people I already mentioned, my amazing Melissa Miller Ferguson over there, I used to call her my business bestie until one year at scaling new heights. Somebody was like, oh, at what point are you guys just going to admit you're just bestie besties? And I was like, oh, [00:29:00] you're right. Oh hey bestie, thank you for being there for me. Um, she and I will get our nails done together and she knows all the T. So and then last but not least, um, I'd like to thank my therapist. Um. It's true. She's going to be on the podcast. Um, and in addition to that theater of public speaking. Yeah. You know, that she's, she's, I think it's in August or something like that. She's, she's scheduled, [00:29:30] it's going to be great. Um, theater of public speaking sisters. Actually, I need to give a shout out to y'all because the, the society WhatsApp and the way that people step up for each other and offer when you're struggling. Um, they say, you know, what do you need from me right now? That's the, that's the phrase I hear over and over again. So lots of pretty amazing board of directors.
Questian Telka: Yes, I would agree. So, um, my board of directors, my partner [00:30:00] in life and also in business. And I think it's important that you choose someone who will push you past your comfort zone, recognize your strengths, push you out of your comfort zone, get you to, Um do the bold things that you would chicken out of. Quite honestly, if you were not getting a.
Nancy McClelland: I gotta, I gotta add to this question. At one point she sent [00:30:30] me a, she sent me a text that said I just borrowed my boyfriend's balls.
Questian Telka: I really did. I forgot about that. Yeah, I know, it's kind of I. Um, so yes, uh, like now I'm like stuck on that. It's kind of a hard thing to know. I'm fine. But yes, I mean, as women, it can be, it can be hard to [00:31:00] take a risk or be aggressive in terms of like going for a new contract, for example. Um, you know, where the studies show that women typically feel like they need to have 100% of the skills listed on a job description before they will apply. Where men just kind of, you know, they're like, I can do most of this and I know I'll figure it out. And so I am channeling some of that energy and it has [00:31:30] not been wrong. It has been a blessing. And so, um, I'm very grateful. And then the rest of my board of directors are just people who are, um, my family, um, my close friends. I think the important thing is that your board of directors, just like a typical board of directors, you have a CFO and you might have, you know, um, a treasurer or. Well, I'm [00:32:00] sorry, that's a, it's, it's diverse and you need different type of people for different things that you are looking for. So I think that's the most important takeaway is that your board of directors be diverse and that you go to the correct person for the correct thing that you need. Don't. Don't take advice from your mom who has never owned a business and tells you, just start. She'll kill me when she hears this. By the way.
Erin Pohan: I [00:32:30] hate when my mom finds my podcast. Just kidding mom, I love you. But we did have a good cry over once. I, I'm gonna have a little confession right now. I actually really don't like the term like minded people. I, I, I think there's something in finding people who know you and will speak truth to you, but I value different perspectives. And I feel [00:33:00] like I always am surprised by people in my life who wait. I just had a stupid LinkedIn poll the other day because I was so mad@pens.com because some of our swag was missed and so.
Nancy McClelland: I loved that post.
Erin Pohan: Well, I was surprised that all the different responses, I was like, oh, so that person would only ask for the missing items refund. I'm like, I want a full refund. But now I'm like, glad that we got [00:33:30] a 50% off refund because people are making me think, Aaron, stop being so entitled. You know, there's different ways to look at it. People are business owners to that post. Even as silly as it was, I valued the fact that people had different opinions. And I think that speaks and helps recalibrate what I'm trying to do.
Nancy McClelland: I want to say another one that was like that, that happened very recently, which I am positive that you and [00:34:00] some of the other people in the in the room here, um, responded to was Roman Villard, who, you know, your, your business partners in the room here.
Erin Pohan: She might.
Nancy McClelland: Have left.
Questian Telka: Oh, I think she left.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Um, he he posted in the Bridging the gap. What's a group WhatsApp? Uh, he shared a LinkedIn post of his and said, hey, bridging the gap. People are the best people I know. I need you guys to weigh in on this. And I'm not trying to be argumentative. He he, he did what you were [00:34:30] talking about. He said, I'm not trying to be argumentative and make my point. I want to know if this client has a point or not and if there are other ways to think about it. And it was about a client had gotten really upset because they don't have a traditional way. There's no way to just like call their office and be able to talk to somebody. And the variety, just like you said, the variety of I was like, literally every client has my personal cell phone number and it works really well for us. Not a single one of them [00:35:00] has texted me today because they know I'm somewhere important and they think twice about whether something is urgent or not.
Erin Pohan: So I've gotten two texts while I've been sitting up here.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness. So it doesn't work for everyone all the time.
Erin Pohan: From an ex client. So there's that.
Nancy McClelland: But to your excellent point, your board of directors needs to be full of people who do not necessarily think the same way that you do. Yeah. Katie Healy, you're going to be added to my board of directors. [00:35:30] I just decided.
Erin Pohan: Love it. Okay. Oh, wow. We have so many questions that have come in and upvotes. So we're going to try and answer these kind of rapid fire. All right. You guys ready? Ready. And I'm just gonna let's see. Do either of you have a coach you would recommend for leadership development.
Nancy McClelland: Oh wow. A leadership development coach. I need one of those. I do not have somebody that I know that I would. There are a few people that I would not recommend. And if [00:36:00] you would like me to privately tell you the answer to that, come up to me afterward, because there have. I'm not kidding. There are some big names.
Questian Telka: That's probably more important than.
Nancy McClelland: It might be more important. I have worked I only worked once with a paid coach, and it was a horrible waste of money. And I was complaining to Rebecca Driscoll about it, who we were talking about earlier in Nicole Davis's session, and she said, I had the same thing happen once to me. And so [00:36:30] she and I have compared notes a bunch. I've compared notes with a bunch of people. I've never had a good experience. I feel very burned from the experience that I had, and so I'm terrified to find a coach.
Questian Telka: Madeline Reeves also has some thoughts on this. Madeline, where are you? Is she still here? Did she sneak out? She snuck out.
Nancy McClelland: She does have some thoughts on that.
Questian Telka: She has some thoughts. Follow her on LinkedIn. You can see her thoughts. I think she put up a post about it.
Nancy McClelland: She did. She put up a pretty scathing post about people who call themselves coaches and couldn't coach their way out [00:37:00] of a paper effing bag. So if anybody who listens to the podcast or is here at wave today, knows of a good coach. We would be happy to spread the word. Please come find us afterward or message us on LinkedIn, please.
Erin Pohan: I love how this leads into the next one because maybe this is what we all need. We know Nancy loves her therapist, and some panelists mentioned their therapist too. Where do you find the right therapist?
Nancy McClelland: Oh gosh. Can I tell you a funny story about how [00:37:30] I found my therapist? So for years, I knew that I needed therapy. I have a really debilitating medical issue that makes it so that I am no longer able to travel on my own. And it is so painful and I hate it. And I'm mad at the universe for giving me this horrible condition. I also have the most wonderful husband in the world because he travels with me everywhere, because I can't travel alone. And I was really, really, really struggling with this and I knew I needed to see a therapist. [00:38:00] And so I'm an accountant. Metrics. Brittany Brown talked about, I went and I researched all of the things that you need to know how to find a therapist. And I made a spreadsheet of all of the therapists in Chicago and the different kinds of ways that they did therapy. And then I measured this, and I looked at that, and I put it through this lens, and I kept not going because I was overwhelmed by all of the information that I had in front of me. And one day I was like, this has just gone on too long. And I pulled [00:38:30] up Google Maps and I typed in therapist and I picked the first one, the closest one that was not already a client of mine. And I went there and it wasn't great.
Questian Telka: You're like, I can't go to a therapist. That is my client because they're the reason I need therapy.
Nancy McClelland: That's a, that's a good one. So I got somebody who [00:39:00] wasn't a great fit. You know, it was fine. Um, and then that person went on leave because she was getting married and she was taking a month off. And the one of the two owners of the practice was subbing for her. And that person has been my therapist ever since. And it has absolutely been amazing. So, you know, Google Maps is a perfectly good way to start because you are going to have to what's the phrase? You're going to have to [00:39:30] kiss a lot of frogs before you find your handsome prince. And it's like that for therapy as well. It will probably not be the first person unless you recommend your therapist to your best friend, and then she gets to go to the same therapist. So that that part is pretty cool.
Questian Telka: I got nothing I can never find one that I like. Uh, so Claude and my friends, I guess.
Erin Pohan: Be careful with that girl. Be careful with that girl. Claudia.
Questian Telka: Claudia is my.
Erin Pohan: This is a woman's conference.
Questian Telka: This [00:40:00] is a women's conference. I have renamed Claude. Claudia.
Erin Pohan: Okay. Oh, I am realizing I've grown my firm bigger than I want. Now that I'm here, what is the best next step to determine what's next for me? Sell. Downsize. Partner.
Nancy McClelland: Find someone in this room that wants to buy it. Because honestly like that, it is the most sickening feeling in your [00:40:30] stomach. I strongly recommend you either sell off all of the clients that you don't want, and you can sell them. They have value. I made a big mistake on this years ago when I was getting. I just was giving them away left and right. No, you can sell them. They have value. You're you're personally introducing them to the person who's going to take over. So like, if you've got a niche, um, that you're excited about and you just want to keep those and you want to get rid of the rest, be like, okay, do I know somebody who does restaurants sell their restaurant clients to that person? [00:41:00] Do I know somebody who does nonprofits sell your nonprofit clients to that person. Um, we just had a really great panel in Asco CPA last week, uh, on pricing. And we talked a lot about how one person's trash is another person's treasure. So get rid, like be serious about it though. Like, don't let this go on forever. Be aggressive. I did this and it was just, it was a miserable, very long period of time. I wish I had done it sooner. So either sell to sell the whole thing to somebody [00:41:30] here that wants it or pick, keep the ones that you want and sell off all the rest. That's my very passionately strong. I feel strongly about this recommendation.
Erin Pohan: I'm going to put the room on the spot. If you are curious or interested in buying a firm, put your arms up.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness, can everybody please look around? Is there anybody who can take a picture of all of the people who are raising their hands? That would actually be really handy. Somebody take a [00:42:00] picture of this. Keep your hands up. Keep your hands up! They're taking a picture. Fantastic. Now, will this change if. If you're just buying some clients? No. Same hands, same hands. Okay. That's great. So people are willing to buy some of your clients or all of your firm potentially. That's excellent. That's easily.
Questian Telka: This is.
Nancy McClelland: The space of the room, right?
Erin Pohan: This is these are the conversations and the money making deals that can get you to your success. It's amazing. Um, [00:42:30] okay, we gotta move fast. But I love this question. How can you ensure you have the greatest possible impact on your people and community?
Nancy McClelland: Start a podcast and a community.
Questian Telka: Um, give without expecting to receive anything in return.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. So good. I love that. So good. All right. Which by the way, is why we all love being friends with Erin on LinkedIn, because that's very much. I'm not kidding. That is what she does. [00:43:00] She gives and gives and gives on LinkedIn without. She doesn't even know who's reading them, but she doesn't expect anything in return. I'm so grateful to you personally for that.
Erin Pohan: Thank you. Sometimes I get sick of my own posts.
Nancy McClelland: I don't.
Erin Pohan: It's nice to hear.
Nancy McClelland: That I do not.
Erin Pohan: Um. Aaron has done such an amazing job connecting and supporting women with this conference. Thank you. What other opportunities are there that you gals have done slash gone to?
Nancy McClelland: Well, I mentioned that Bridging the Gap is my very favorite conference and I'm going to double down on that [00:43:30] one. Um, it is all about creating a sustainable firm. So it could be bookkeeping, accounting, tax advisory. It doesn't doesn't matter. You know anything in accounting and finance space. Um, but how do you make it a sustainable firm? And that's very actionable. Um, the sessions that they have are very like, you'll, I remember the first one that I went to, I think it was Nia Carter Gray there she is furious right there. She gave a talk [00:44:00] on how to take a vacation during tax season, and I'm like, good luck. All right. I literally live in Mexico for four months during tax season and a couple of those weekends during tax season, I do take a vacation. I go to the beach. And I learned how because of what what Nihoa taught me at that one. So bridging the gap would be really, really high for me on that list. I also think that the, um, one day sessions that are more local, [00:44:30] um, like wave for all of you who are in this area, um, or advisory amplified or, uh, Jason on firms, those are one day sessions that are, are near you. And one of the things that's wonderful about those kinds of things is that you, you actually meet people who run firms like you and they are local. So that that panel that we heard here on partnerships earlier, a lot of them met each other and got to be friends because they were like shooting [00:45:00] the shit.
Erin Pohan: In the same communities.
Nancy McClelland: In the same community, being like, I run a bookkeeping firm too, and my clients drive me crazy. Oh me too. Let's be partners. I mean it a little bit more complicated than that. You had to be there, but, um, but when you go to those one day local conferences, you're going to meet those people, right? You're going to meet the people who you get to bounce ideas off of. And so I would definitely recommend those.
Questian Telka: I would say that, um, when you're at conferences, wherever you [00:45:30] are, make sure that you are having conversations with people, meeting, meeting other people, keeping keeping in contact with them after. And, um, you know, the, the biggest takeaways for me when I'm at events and meeting people or at events just in general is meeting people and then continuing that conversation later. And it's also been the most. One of the most lucrative things is because I've just [00:46:00] built so many incredible, authentic relationships at the events that we have. So keep going and keep talking to people. I, when I, if anybody has listened to the podcast before already, they've heard me say this. When I first started going to conferences, I couldn't even, I was too scared to talk to anyone. Um, and so just put yourself out there and do it. Anyway.
Nancy McClelland: Um, I want to shout out to Andrea McDonald here. Where are you still here. Where are you? Um, [00:46:30] yes. So she was really vulnerable in the Asca CPA community. She said, I will be at Wave and I will be lurking in the corner because I'm an introvert. Please come find me. And I was like, you know what? There are a lot of people who, if you can just say that out loud, if you can say, I'm, I'm a I'm afraid to go up to you, but please don't be afraid to come up to me. Tory. Tory. Mckee. Same thing. They want to meet.
Questian Telka: You really hard on [00:47:00] turning introverts into extroverts.
Nancy McClelland: That's not true.
Questian Telka: I'm really good at it.
Nancy McClelland: That is not true. But. But you can always. If you admit that, then there will be an extrovert nearby who will be like, I will bring people to you. I will bring people to you. Sharon Fuller and I have said for years, if you're ever at a conference and you see one of us, even if you don't know us, come up to us and we will make sure you meet the people.
Erin Pohan: I can attest to that. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. So we have [00:47:30] a ton more questions that came in, and I think I'm just gonna end up posting these in the counter community so we can continue these conversations.
Nancy McClelland: That's a great idea.
Erin Pohan: I wanted to, in the spirit of what we were just saying, I wanted to share a quick story about that first time at Bridging the Gap, where I had this overwhelming feeling that I was a little fish. No, a little fish. In a bowl that I was about to grow out of.
Nancy McClelland: Oh.
Erin Pohan: That's how bridging [00:48:00] made me feel.
Nancy McClelland: Beautiful analogy.
Erin Pohan: And it was this feeling. And I went into the hallway and I was overwhelmed. And I ran right into Jean Hardy. Yeah. And I told her how I was feeling. I was like, I just can't explain it. I don't know what this means. I just feel like I'm about to explode out of whatever has been containing me.
Questian Telka: You weren't wrong.
Erin Pohan: And she told me the most wise thing I've heard. And that is, no matter [00:48:30] where you go, always take care of your people. And she was talking about team members and clients, and that will always stick with me. And that is what I mean by community. And that is what I mean by hallway conversations and conferences and the conversations we're having today. And we will continue to have.
Nancy McClelland: And I want. I'm going to go back to the the ask that I had for y'all earlier. There are a lot of people who aren't going to conferences [00:49:00] and don't know where to start. And I want us to get creative about how how do we reach them? There are a lot of people out there who are making all the mistakes that we talked about today, and they don't know how to get out from under them. How do we find them? How do we support them? How do we reach them so that they're not alone?
Erin Pohan: Accounting. Cornerstone.
Nancy McClelland: Accounting, cornerstone foundation. Yes. Which we are.
Questian Telka: Scholarships for attending conferences. Yep. And they take donations. Everybody [00:49:30] donate if you can.
Nancy McClelland: We we did an awesome fundraiser. We did an awesome fundraiser for them this past December where we, we did an auction and Jason stats matched everything that we came up with on there. And we've been very blessed by the foundation because we've had. Six. Ask a CPA members get scholarships to conferences, which is. Which is really amazing.
Questian Telka: These live, in-person recordings are some [00:50:00] of my favorites, and this has been so much fun. Thank you for having us and for doing it with us. And, um, you know, Q&A used to be my, uh, my biggest fear when giving a presentation. Um, and speaking and now it's like my favorite part. So, you know, come a long way and Nancy and I, well, okay, so I was here last year and I told Nancy how incredible [00:50:30] of an experience it was.
Nancy McClelland: And she so much so that I actually came home from Mexico a week early so that I could make it to this one. Yeah. Yes.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So we are thrilled. Thank you for having us. It's this is a unique and special event. And, um, I, it's just been incredible to, as you say, like watch you just freaking jump out of the fishbowl.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Fishbowl could not keep her in. Yeah. As we wrap up, we'd like to ask listeners to follow our She Counts podcast LinkedIn page [00:51:00] and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode live at wave. After everything we've heard today, what's one definition of success you've personally outgrown?
Erin Pohan: And before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote by Anne Sweeney. Define success on your own terms, achieve it by your own rules, and build a life you [00:51:30] are proud to live.
Questian Telka: Thank you everyone for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, Well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: That's right. So you feel seen, heard and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Never alone, never alone. Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmark dot PPP [00:52:00] links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the show notes. I've got to have a long show notes on this. When I mentioned so many people that are in this room.
Questian Telka: Yeah, you sure are. And uh, please subscribe if you haven't already. And also please leave us a review. It really does help.
Nancy McClelland: Many thanks again to Aaron Cohen for asking us to record at Wave this year. We are both so excited and honored to be a part of it.
Erin Pohan: And [00:52:30] my.
Nancy McClelland: Two weeks.