Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!
Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. We're your hosts, Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real life experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you should not have to figure [00:00:30] it out alone.
Questian Telka: A special thanks to our season three sponsors, Bill, Relay and Carbon were so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone is thinking and no one is saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at She Counts dot show.
Nancy McClelland: And if you want to support the podcast, the one thing that makes the biggest impact is leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform reviews [00:01:00] really do help others find us.
Questian Telka: And remember, you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit. And please follow the she podcast page on LinkedIn to join in on the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode brings together two conversations that begin in very different places, but they arrive at almost the same exact destination. One starts with entrepreneurship, the other starts with survival. Both are really about [00:01:30] what happens when fear has been making your decisions for you.
Questian Telka: That's what happens when people spend time thinking about what they want the world to hear from them.
Nancy McClelland: Exactly. And today's guests couldn't be more different on the surface. Katie Healy talks about building the courage to start her own firm after years of letting fear make decisions for her. And Mariana Alvarez shares what it took to reclaim herself after years of domestic violence [00:02:00] had her believing that she wasn't enough. Katie approaches it from the outside. She's got this concept of taking one step forward, and Mariana approaches it from the inside. You have to find yourself again. And together, these two different stories actually become a conversation about courage.
Questian Telka: That's right. Different stories.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. But the same question underneath them. What happens when fear has been [00:02:30] driving your life for a really, really long time?
Questian Telka: And maybe even more importantly, what does the first step back look like?
Nancy McClelland: That's exactly where we're headed. I was so grateful for the time I got to spend with these women at the Theater of Public Speaking Advanced retreat, you and I question. I know we were both so blessed to attend what they call the curtain call. You went in, um, 2024, Right.
Questian Telka: Yeah. The first I think that was the first year that she did it. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And I went the [00:03:00] second year, which was 2025. And then this year I got to go back, uh, to interview the women who were giving their keynotes there. And I'm, I'm excited to share our first two interviews with you from the 2026 cohort.
Questian Telka: I am jealous that I did not get to attend, but I was really happy that you were able to go. And, um, we could, we got the, we are getting the opportunity to help share their voices. So, um, let's roll it. And I'm excited to hear what you [00:03:30] learned about Nancy.
Nancy McClelland: Katie Heele, one of my favorite people in the world, is finally on the podcast. Woo hoo everyone. My guest right now is a dear, dear friend of mine.
Nancy McClelland: As a matter of fact, she's my quote unquote little sister in the theater of public speaking. Advanced cohort and we are here in the Bay area. You just came off [00:04:00] stage, Katie. I did. How did it go?
Nancy McClelland: Honestly, it felt amazing. Did it really? It really, really did. It really did. I'm just thrilled. That's fantastic.
Nancy McClelland: What did you talk about?
Nancy McClelland: Um, basically, I talked about overcoming fear and, uh, stepping into courage.
Nancy McClelland: Stepping into courage. Is this something that you have dealt with personally? And I say this very knowingly because I know her story. [00:04:30]
Nancy McClelland: I do. Yes. Yes I do. I feel that, you know, fear stops many of us. It absolutely does. Yeah. And when we let fear in, it starts making decisions for us. Oof! When in reality, we should not. Yeah. You know, we should use it as information, not instruction. I love that. On how to handle any situation. You know, [00:05:00] in life, in our businesses, you're always going to have some sort of fear. Yeah. And, you know, unfortunately, people sometimes allow fear to make the decisions for them when if handled the right way, you know, you use it as instruction to use it as a learning experience or how to make the, the next step decision [00:05:30] versus.
Nancy McClelland: How were you able to actually reframe that for yourself? I mean, obviously, if you're talking about this on the main stage and recording a keynote on this topic, um, something pretty significant happened for you to be able to, uh, see fear in a different way that you used to see it.
Nancy McClelland: I did. I mean, I knew that if I were to let fear take over, it would ruin me. You know, I could have said, [00:06:00] you know, when fear does step in, we end up saying, I shouldn't have done this. Mhm. And instead of saying that, I mean, for me, if I would have said that and stopped, you know, the life that I was building, ultimately I would not have the amazing things that have happened to me since then.
Nancy McClelland: Well, as you know, because you're a regular listener of the podcast, um, the, the, the audience [00:06:30] that we're speaking to, these are women like you who are either working internally at CPA firms or CAS firms or running their own firms. You've had the experience now of doing all of those things. Mhm. Um, so what, what, what would it have changed in your life. If you had let fear make the decisions for you or you know, how would um, how has fear in the past prevented you from doing things?
Nancy McClelland: It stopped me from making decisions.
Nancy McClelland: Really? [00:07:00]
Nancy McClelland: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, before I started my firm, I've always wanted to do do that. And fear is what kept me back. I didn't think I could do it. I didn't think I'd, you know, I didn't have the confidence because I was so scared of what if I don't make enough money? What if I'm not prepared? What if I don't know anything? What if no clients want to work with me? You know, like, all these things start stacking up in your head.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh. And those are all questions that [00:07:30] their normal.
Nancy McClelland: Normal questions, right? They are normal questions. But at the same time, you're letting fear take over when you're not taking action to answer those questions in a reasonable manner, right? Like when when I, how I broke it down was I needed to figure out what kind of money did I need to make to go out on my own?
Nancy McClelland: Let me guess. Spreadsheet.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. I mean, we build spreadsheets for a living, [00:08:00] right? Yeah. You know, and once I, like, dug into the spreadsheet and, like, did the math, the math worked like it was very logical, right? But my brain was telling me something different and fear was making the decision for me, even though on paper it made sense.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And so I feel like, you know, had I not been courageous enough, I guess, you know, I would not be where I am today. And I am incredibly [00:08:30] grateful for the experiences that I've had, good and bad, because it's really taught me a lot about life in general. And, you know, there's so many positive things that outweigh the negative. Yeah. And if I would have used the if if the point in which fear really set in, if I would have used that as a stopping mechanism, as a stop sign, [00:09:00] you know, I wouldn't be doing all the amazing things. I wouldn't be doing the theater of public speaking. I wouldn't have met you. Yeah, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't have the opportunity to be on tax counsel. Like there are so many amazing things that have transformed my life for the better that I just didn't realize existed until I really stopped and figured out what was holding me back.
Nancy McClelland: So [00:09:30] you had been working at a CPA firm managing the firm for 15 years, is that right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And so when, when did you first start to have this idea that maybe you could start a firm of your own.
Nancy McClelland: It's something I always wanted to do. I've always had that entrepreneurial blood. Yeah. I mean, my dad worked for himself and I just, you know, I'm very type A driven and I love oh my gosh, I think.
Nancy McClelland: Every [00:10:00] woman who's been on the show today.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Um, and I've always just, I envisioned myself doing something on my own. I mean, even prior to starting my own firm, uh, for a long period of time, I sold jewelry and a home based business.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my.
Nancy McClelland: Goodness. I did, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And I don't think I knew that about you.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm. Oh yeah, I did. And I was very, very successful, like one of the top sellers in, in Arizona. And I loved [00:10:30] it. Right. And I was my own boss. And I knew someday that I wanted to do it, but I also was the main income earner in our family. And that's very scary, you know, to walk away from. Comfortable.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: To very uncomfortable because you don't know.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. I mean, that's the whole we learn about risk and reward when we're in school, right? Like the lower the risk, the lower the potential reward, the higher the risk, the higher the potential reward. Yeah. [00:11:00] But when you've got that high risk, yeah, you've got that high potential reward. You're, you're, your top level is a lot higher. You know, your ceiling is a lot higher, but it also means you can go through the ground and you know, all the way to hell and hopefully back with what happens when it goes wrong. Yeah. And so you were playing it safe for a really long time. Super safe. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: I'm just super safe over here. Yeah. You know, and, and it was, it, I had so many people telling me before [00:11:30] going out on my own, you need to do this yourself. You need to do this yourself. You're so good. You understand this? And I just didn't have the confidence I, I think I needed time. Time to figure things out.
Nancy McClelland: Essentially, here you are. You're looking at this spreadsheet.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: How long did you have to look at that spreadsheet before? The same exact story read differently to you?
Nancy McClelland: Well, [00:12:00] I did not act upon my, uh, goal for seven years.
Nancy McClelland: Seven years? I didn't know that.
Nancy McClelland: Seven years.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: I always wanted to do it.
Nancy McClelland: When you and I started talking about it, it felt like it was new, but it actually had been out.
Nancy McClelland: There for a long time. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. That's amazing. So, um, what shifted and specifically when you tell us about what shifted? I want you to tell it in a way [00:12:30] where a woman out there right now who is listening to you, who's maybe been only two years, not seven years, maybe two years. She's been thinking about this.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: What shifted for you that might shift for her?
Nancy McClelland: And that's my goal is, you know, to share. Share this. Because, you know, I don't want people to wait seven years to make a life changing decision that is so incredibly positive.
Nancy McClelland: Now that life changing decision doesn't have to be the decision to start your own firm, it could.
Nancy McClelland: Actually be anything. [00:13:00]
Nancy McClelland: To close your firm and go find a job that's in a firm, you know, like it could be, it could be anything. But for you, it was this particular thing. So let's imagine a woman's been there for two years. She's been thinking about this. What shifted?
Nancy McClelland: Um, burnout is what shifted. Really? Yeah. Burnout. I was working a lot of hours and I loved my job. But when you have a small child at home and you're working a lot, I mean, it's, it's a lot. You're running a household, you're, [00:13:30] you know, doing all the kid things. You're working. And it was just a lot. And I was getting to the point where I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah. I had.
Nancy McClelland: Even though you loved your job.
Nancy McClelland: I loved my job. I love what I do. I just didn't love it. In the moment. I, I was something had to give, something had to give. Yeah. And that's when I, it kind of flipped the switch for me of like, hmm, maybe I can do this really now on my own.
Nancy McClelland: So your spreadsheet showed that [00:14:00] you could do it in fewer hours.
Nancy McClelland: Totally. I mean, the spreadsheet was one of those where it was like a confirmation of like, oh, I only need this many clients or, oh, I only need to make this much of money per month. Well, how many clients does that equate to? And when you see that number broken down, it's like, oh, that's a little easier than I thought it was going to be. Right. And so, uh, that, that was really instrumental. And honestly, your encouragement was really instrumental with, [00:14:30] um, The mastermind group and all of you ladies. Yes. Yeah. It was really transformational.
Nancy McClelland: I was.
Nancy McClelland: Just talking about.
Nancy McClelland: That group. I was giving a webinar just the other night, and I talked about how important that group was to me.
Nancy McClelland: It was very important. You know, I, I was in a hard place in, in my life just because I was burnt out. But I'm not a not one to throw in the towel and just give up. Right. And so you ladies [00:15:00] really gave me a lot of encouragement. And that's when I really looked at that spreadsheet again. And I was like, I can do this, I can do this. And that's when it started.
Nancy McClelland: That's amazing.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: So how did you get from there to deciding that the message that you want to spread for other women in accounting is that fear is an indicator, Not [00:15:30] something that is, uh, should should stop you. Not something that says you shouldn't be doing.
Nancy McClelland: A warning sign. Yeah, a warning sign. Um, well, I don't want someone to spend seven years waiting to decide. Honestly, seven years is a long time. Yeah. And, uh, I, I just feel that I'm called to share this message. Right? I don't, I am very passionate about my job. I love what I do, I love the [00:16:00] clients I work with, I love working with clients, but I also love teaching others like what, what to do and how to, how to leave when they're feeling burnt out to start something of their own. I mean, I know there are a lot of people that are in my shoes right now because I've talked to a lot of people about their wanting to, to make a change, but they just don't know how. Yeah. And I think what you have to do is you have to break it down into steps. [00:16:30] You don't want to take a leap. You want to take a step, one step at a time. So if you're worried about money, you need to figure out what do you need to make each month? What kind of runway do you need to have? What, um, what do you need to learn before walking away? Right.
Nancy McClelland: Building up savings. If you're afraid of, you know, not having the knowledge. What do you need to learn before you do that? Who could mentor you? You know, to run your business? Like there [00:17:00] are little steps you can take leading up to that. And those steps might take a long time. Yeah, a little bit of a long time. But some of those steps are so simple, like looking at the numbers and saying, okay, this is how much I need to make. What would that take? I mean, really, once I looked at that spreadsheet, I was like, oh my gosh, like eye opener. So I think it's just breaking it down into small measurable steps rather than a leap or, you know, jumping off a cliff [00:17:30] like. That's right. Quitting your job with no plan is not the answer. Right. You don't want to get to that point. And so I think it's really important to take small steps building up to it.
Nancy McClelland: So here I am. I've been thinking about this for a couple of years. Again, whatever that is, whether it's starting my own firm or closing up my own firm and going and doing this instead. What anything in between? Um, I take the first step and [00:18:00] I get scared because either the numbers are showing me something that I think is going to be insurmountable or, um, because it's just a natural human response. What do I do with that fear? I know you're telling us to push through it, but it's deeper than that.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm. I think the biggest thing you could do if you Realize something is get help, right? Find a support system. Truly. Yeah. Like find [00:18:30] a support system. Find other firms that are running a firm that you want to to run, learn from them. I mean, there's so many professionals out there that are so willing to share. You share. I share everybody shares. We're not gatekeepers. We want everyone to succeed. So true. And there is so many people out there that I have learned from truly that I am so grateful for. Because there are things that you don't know, but it doesn't mean you can't [00:19:00] learn them, right? Right. So it's just taking that one little step. So if you look at the numbers and you're still unsure, break it down maybe a little bit further. Okay. What does that take for you to earn that money? Right. What services do you want to offer? How would your pricing look? And if those are things you don't know the answer to learn.
Nancy McClelland: That's where you.
Nancy McClelland: Learn.
Nancy McClelland: Reach out to other people. So let's say your question is specifically about pricing. That's my most recent one. You said. Perfect. Then you go on LinkedIn, who's talking about pricing on LinkedIn and you. What? [00:19:30] Just send them a DM.
Nancy McClelland: You do or join a community. I mean, there's so many amazing communities out there, depending on what you want to go into your ask a CPA community.
Nancy McClelland: As a.
Nancy McClelland: Matter of fact, really helpful.
Nancy McClelland: Is one of the CPAs in my CPA community, for which I'm endlessly grateful.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, it's just like those things, you know, your yours is really good. Another great community for people wanting to go out on their own or maybe just started a firm is Logan Graf's counter. Absolutely. Counter is so great. There's so many [00:20:00] seasoned professionals in there, but also a lot of newbies that are learning and growing and everyone shares. There's no gatekeeping, there's no negativity, there's none of that.
Nancy McClelland: And you know what I thought was really interesting? I know they did their first in-person retreat this weekend.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And Logan was posting about the fact that there weren't any group photos because a lot of the people who were there are moonlighting and they're still working at their CPA [00:20:30] firms. And I was just like, wow, that is a lot of people who are are new.
Nancy McClelland: I'm telling you, that's what I did. I'm, I moonlighted for a bit to figure out if that's what I wanted to do. Right? Whether that's right or wrong, you have to understand, you know, the consequences of doing that.
Nancy McClelland: In my situation, it's very different because I specifically hire people who are also running their own firm.
Nancy McClelland: That's so incredible.
Nancy McClelland: So it's great because we get to [00:21:00] I get to help them build that. Um, and then it also, you know, fosters loyalty. And so they're inclined to stay with me even though they've built something of their own. And so I really, I really like that. Um, it's, it's risky and it has its own problems for sure. Um, but I really, really like that format because then we can be really open with each other and we don't have to call it moonlighting when it's collaborating. Collaborating.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it really is what it is. Yeah. You know, and I think that we have to shift the traditional [00:21:30] models to more modern models because if we continue at the traditional pace, I think we won't have accountants because people don't want to work that way. And that was really eye opening for me when I joined Jason Stout's realized group.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, there's another amazing community out there and that's how you and I met.
Katie Heele: That is how we met. And I didn't know that there were other there were there was a different way to run a firm. I had no idea because I didn't have I kind of was in a square. [00:22:00] I didn't like, get out of the square. Right. And once you realize that it was really eye opening to see the oh my gosh, they do things this way. And that's transformational. That's what kind of kick started things. And then the mastermind group was very transformational. And I just think that, you know, you have to be willing to be uncomfortable too. And that's really hard for people to to accept. [00:22:30] I don't like being uncomfortable, but honestly, over time, I've learned to be, you know, it's okay to.
Nancy McClelland: Live in that.
Katie Heele: Discomfort. Yeah. Because that's where the, the biggest growth happens is when you are, when fear is right here and you're standing on the edge of growth, you're really standing on the edge of growth.
Nancy McClelland: So you're seeing that fear as an indicator of growth, not an indicator that you should stop.
Katie Heele: Absolutely. Yes, 100%. I love that [00:23:00] because like I said, if I would have stopped, I wouldn't be here today.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. I last year when I was at the Advanced Theater of Public Speaking, um, retreat that you've been at these past few days, my presentation was on. Um, let's stop calling imposter syndrome a syndrome because it's not a sickness. It is a very human feeling. And it is to me those, those feelings very similar to what you're talking about, those feelings like you're an imposter. [00:23:30] You don't belong here. To me, they are an indicator that you're about to go into a space of not knowing. And the not knowing is where the learning happens. And that's a good thing. We want to always be learning. It would be a really, really boring life if we just stopped there every time that we started feeling like an imposter. And I feel like there's a lot.
Katie Heele: Of similarity.
Nancy McClelland: Similarity between.
Katie Heele: Well, an interesting fact, fun fact I have learned is, um, in a report from [00:24:00] 2025, 60% of people want to make a change in their job. They're just afraid to. Are you serious? 6,060%.
Nancy McClelland: That's amazing.
Katie Heele: Yeah. They would make a change, but they're too afraid to take that next step. Okay.
Nancy McClelland: 60% have a challenge. I have a challenge for our listeners here. Are you in that 60%? Is there a change that you are wanting to make that you're not making? And is [00:24:30] the reason that you're not making it? Fear. Mhm. If you are in that 60%, your very next step is to get out what a piece of pen and some paper and start.
Katie Heele: Writing what you're fearful of. All right. Figure it out. So then you can address how to address the fear.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you don't really know what you're afraid of.
Nancy McClelland: If it's just like this amorphous fear, then you can't do anything.
Katie Heele: You wouldn't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. All right, so that's your challenge, everyone. If you are in that 60% who wants [00:25:00] to make a change of any type business, personal, whatever. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Uh, get a piece of pen and a paper out. Uh, as a matter of fact, if you are listening to this while you're driving, I would prefer you not do that.
Katie Heele: Absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. But.
Katie Heele: Please don't.
Nancy McClelland: Maybe just record a voice memo to yourself and start noting what? What are you afraid? Afraid of? And then start making a plan. One [00:25:30] step, one. Step one. Not a leap. Not a step to address one of those fears. I love it, Katie. Thank you so much for being with us on She Counts today. I am, as you know, endlessly proud of the steps that you have taken to get to where you are today. Yeah. And the fact that it's come full circle. Yeah. And you are teaching others how to make that leap as well is, um, [00:26:00] I don't know. I just feel my heart just like grow bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Um, getting to see that surprise on your face when you walked into the room and saw me today. It was a delight. It really has come full circle, and I'm just so proud to know you and I'm so proud to be learning from you. Um, so thanks very much for being with us on She Counts Today. Do you have anything you'd like to share?
Katie Heele: I want to thank you. Thank you for being that nudge to get me to where I am today.
Katie Heele: I truly words [00:26:30] cannot express how incredibly thankful and grateful I am.
Nancy McClelland: Okay, we're just going to have a love fest here. This is amazing. Um, any last words for our listeners?
Katie Heele: Yeah. You know, if if you're afraid, just write down what it is that you need to be able to move forward and know that it's not going to happen overnight. It's.
Nancy McClelland: And that's okay. Yeah, that's actually part of it.
Katie Heele: It's, you're not making, you're not jumping off a cliff, you're taking a step [00:27:00] and it's okay if it takes time. It took me seven years.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. Even if somebody makes it take six and a half years. Yeah. They learned.
Katie Heele: You're still taking a step?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Thanks for being here with us today.
Nancy McClelland: Thanks for having me.It was such an honor.
Nancy McClelland: It was an honor for me as well.
Nancy McClelland: One of the things that struck me listening to Katie is that she never talks about becoming fearless. You know how that annoys me. That idea. People say, don't [00:27:30] be scared. Don't be scared. I'm like, no, no, be scared. That's okay. That's like the most natural human emotion that our lizard brain gives us, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah.
She talks instead about becoming willing. She didn't wake up one morning overflowing with confidence. She looked at the numbers she found, people she trusted. She took one step and then another. And then another. And then another.
Questian Telka: That's right. [00:28:00] A little bit at a time. And what what really struck me is that Katie, as you were kind of saying, tells people she doesn't tell people to ignore their fear. She tells them instead that what they should do is really get curious about it. And instead of asking, how do I stop being afraid? And you and I have talked about this a lot too. She asks, what is my fear trying to tell me? And once Katie was able to answer that question, then [00:28:30] she was actually able to make a plan.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. You and I have talked about, you know, in our imposter interrupted episode, we talk about fear being a signal that you're heading into a period of growth. And so she took a very similar angle, which was that fear was a signal to her. Um, and what's also fascinating to me is that our next guest, she arrived at almost the same exact destination, but from a completely different direction. Mariana [00:29:00] Alvarez uh, definitely not talking about entrepreneurship, although she does run her own firm, she's talking about rebuilding herself after years of domestic abuse. And this was a very emotional conversation because it's the first time that she talked about it publicly. And as you'll hear, she also discovered that freedom doesn't arrive all at once. It comes kind of like Katie was talking about one step, then the next [00:29:30] step, then the next step. It comes one decision, one realization, and in Mariana's case, one act of self-forgiveness at a time.
Nancy McClelland: Mariana, I am so glad that you're joining us here on She Counts today. And I know that this is a challenging day for you because trigger warning to our audience. Um, Mariana, her keynote that she delivered at [00:30:00] the Theater of Public Speaking advanced retreat was on her takeaways and her learnings from some experiences that came from domestic violence and abuse. Um, we're not talking about the domestic violence today. We were talking about, you said you really want to focus on what you've learned from it and your takeaways and your growth from it. And I know you've got some pretty incredible lessons to share with us. Mariana. Welcome to She Counts.
Mariana Alvarez: Thank you. Nancy, it's [00:30:30] been a pleasure to be invited for this. The fear of public speaking has been a transformational experience for myself, and I'm so happy for the opportunity to share and hopefully inspire others or help others to move on with their lives.
Nancy McClelland: So, Mariana, can you share with us a little about, um, what happened in your life and how it led you to your, uh, your takeaways, your Realizations about [00:31:00] freedom.
Mariana Alvarez: Yes. Sure. Um, so I was married for 17 years. I have a son who is now 18, a daughter who is 16. And I stay on that situation, which I used to think was too long. And I resented myself for staying for too long. But I stayed because I had a fear about the children of about losing the children. But once I was out of the situation and I [00:31:30] started to work on myself, I started to realize that I could not move on and rebuild my life and find my own freedom and my myself again, my truth back again. Unless I had let it go of what had happened in the past, and find ways to forgive myself for staying too long. Forgive myself for for a long time. I blame myself for what happened.
Nancy McClelland: Really?
Mariana Alvarez: I used to think [00:32:00] that it was because I was not good enough or not pretty enough or not. I did not talk well or I did not communicate well. I used to think that something I was doing that was causing the entire situation. But then I learned that that was not true.
Nancy McClelland: Not true at.
Mariana Alvarez: All. Not true. So I had to find myself again. I. I lost my own essence during those years. So in seeking to find myself [00:32:30] again, that's how I learned that forgiveness was not something that just showed up out of nowhere. It was a long process, and it's not the first thing that came through it. Um, and part of what I spoke on the keynote is for the woman who unfortunately are still in that situation, it. Forgiveness is not something for them to just feel. That's another burden they have to carry.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, wow. Yeah.
Mariana Alvarez: First, we need to get safety. You need to get support. [00:33:00] Work on finding your own truth. And with that, forgiveness eventually would just come along.
Nancy McClelland: And are you talking about forgiveness to the abuser or forgiveness to yourself for the blame that you were inflicting on yourself?
Mariana Alvarez: Somewhat. Both. I started with forgiving myself. I had to forgive myself for putting my children on that place. [00:33:30] Because as a mother, yeah, I felt the blame. I felt that was my fault, that they had experienced that kind of situation. So I had to find first, find a place where I said, okay, Mariana, I forgive you for not knowing better. I forgive you for staying for too long. I forgive you for blaming yourself. And then it took some years of a lot of internal work, but I got to a point where I now forgave the abuser as [00:34:00] well.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. That's amazing. That's absolutely incredible to imagine what you went through in that process. Um, you mentioned that it wasn't overnight. How did you. Did you do it because you knew that it was through this process of self-forgiveness that you would eventually find freedom from self-blame? Or did you do it for some other reason? Like, [00:34:30] where did it come from? What was the spark? How did it even begin?
Mariana Alvarez: Yeah, it was a lot of introspection. In the beginning, I. I could say, well, I felt I was becoming, I had become a bitter, sour person because of what happened. And at the start was kind of a safe. Right. It's safe. So if I stay bitter and sour, nobody else will hurt me. If I keep my anger, then I cannot. I can defend myself.
Nancy McClelland: Anger [00:35:00] as a as a wall. As a wall. Yeah.
Mariana Alvarez: Yeah. It was almost like I was guarding myself with anger, with the resentment and the bitterness. But as I kept searching, I was like, I kept remembering myself. I was like, how I used to be.
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Mariana Alvarez: I was before all that.
Nancy McClelland: I was like, sour. I wasn't angry.
Mariana Alvarez: And, and talking with friends from teenage years, like you were always such a kind person. I was like, was I?
Nancy McClelland: You really couldn't remember?
Mariana Alvarez: Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. You had to like.
Mariana Alvarez: I had to go back to, [00:35:30] to my teenage years, like, and my friends, like you were always so talkative and so friendly and you were always so kind with everybody. I was like, was I?
Nancy McClelland: Well, that's how I think of you. So for me to imagine you as bitter or angry is that's a stretch for me.
Mariana Alvarez: Thank you.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. But it's it's like it's obviously you were able to somehow re-access that.
Mariana Alvarez: Yeah. Because what it made me realize, like, okay, as my friends were telling me that because during the period, um, it also got [00:36:00] me distance from my family and my friends from childhood.
Nancy McClelland: During the period that you were in the relationship, in.
Mariana Alvarez: The.
Nancy McClelland: Relationship being.
Mariana Alvarez: Abused. So once I left the relationship, I was finally getting back to my friends. And that's when I was like, I'm so happy you're back to us.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Mariana Alvarez: And they kept telling me, you're so kind. You're always so friendly and cheerful. I was I did not recall that. And then I kept that on the back of my mind. But I was still carrying that that wall, like you said. But I, I started [00:36:30] realizing like, but if I'm still carrying this wall, if I'm gonna still move with my life, with the anger, then I'm still there.
Nancy McClelland: Right?
Mariana Alvarez: I'm still letting the entire situation of that person affect me. And I didn't want that anymore. It's like, what? What can I do now to really, even though I was already out of the relationship. My next question was, how can I what? What do I need to do now to [00:37:00] stop affecting me? Because yes, we were not physically together anymore, but somehow I felt there was still getting affected. I still had that voice on the back of my mind telling me, you're not enough. You're not worth it. Who do you think you are? So I had to reprogram that in myself. And my childhood friends were a great help on that. And I realized like, well, I, I don't want to be stuck on this. I. So what do I need to do to get out? I was like, okay, [00:37:30] one step at a time. What is the next step you need to do to emotionally now get out of the situation? And that was like, I have to find my truth back again.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Mariana Alvarez: And listening my friends telling me the kind of person that I was before. That's what brought me back to my essence.
Nancy McClelland: That's incredible. That's that's so moving. I can't imagine. I can't imagine being in your situation. And [00:38:00] I can't imagine the comfort and the empathy and the reassurance that being able to find people who remember what you were like, the kind of strength that that would give you.
Mariana Alvarez: Yeah, the, the friends and family, um, and any support group that can see through that barrier that, that we put in for our own protection. Yeah. When we are in it, um, it's unbelievably important. [00:38:30]
Nancy McClelland: It's amazing because, you know, you, you think about it as being a barrier that you're putting up for your own protection, but you're also closing yourself in.
Mariana Alvarez: Exactly.
Nancy McClelland: That barrier is something you, you then have trouble getting through in order to reconnect with the world?
Mariana Alvarez: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: So you're going through this process. Obviously, you said you had to bring yourself and your children to a place of safety first. Yes. Stabilization next. And then you had, um, a process of therapy [00:39:00] and of realizing that, you know, you had next steps that you had to take to get through this wall that you had built for yourself. What happened next?
Mariana Alvarez: Yeah. So, um, totally. The first step was making sure that I was safe, that my children was safe. And then I kind of stabilized my life. And after that, I started studying some spiritual teachings that was focused on self reflection and self. [00:39:30] Um. It's self reflection and in the meaning that not blaming myself for what happened, But understanding that my healing and my future was in my hands, not on somebody else's hands. Even if it's just somebody trying to help, because even the support is very important. But at the end of the day, I had to do the work right, and I had to be [00:40:00] responsible and understand that I am responsible for where I want it to be for the person that I wanted to become.
Nancy McClelland: So the self-reflection and the self-responsibility were related to each other.
Mariana Alvarez: Exactly. Exactly.
Nancy McClelland: That's amazing. And so, um, here you are going through this process of self-reflection and it's leading you to self responsibility. Is that what gave you the courage to break down that wall or I mean, how did you get from the [00:40:30] process of self reflection to the process of self responsibility? I guess that's my question.
Mariana Alvarez: It's not what gave me the courage, but what gave me a feeling that of a purpose.
Nancy McClelland: Uh huh.
Mariana Alvarez: Got it. Mostly watching my children, right. Because as a mom. Okay. I'll be okay. I'll take care of myself. But watching my children and my daughter, who is still healing, who is still in the process. I felt it was [00:41:00] my responsibility as a woman and as a mother that I need to do something or whatever I can to help others.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Mariana Alvarez: So we don't see other children, so we don't see other women in the same situation, and we don't see other children going through what I saw my children going through. And so that didn't bring me courage, but brought me a purpose like right.
Nancy McClelland: Direction.
Mariana Alvarez: A direction.
Nancy McClelland: Somebody earlier today had talked about their North Star for you. [00:41:30] This was your guiding light. Yes. Um, and it was the self reflection that, uh, made you aware of this. And then the concept of self-responsibility, where you were like, I am responsible for getting myself out of the self-blame cycle.
Mariana Alvarez: Exactly. Exactly. And that gave me that. What you're saying is a North star. So now I have a purpose. And when you have a purpose that kind of fills your soul and, and makes your, your spirit [00:42:00] shine and your my body is to bubble like I don't have the courage, but I know I got to do this. And I started thinking, okay, that's not about me anymore. Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm.
Mariana Alvarez: I came out to the other side.
Nancy McClelland: Right. So you find it. You're scared, but you do it anyway.
Mariana Alvarez: You just do it anyway.
Nancy McClelland: You just do it anyway. Because you've got something that is a bigger calling, which, in your case, was helping your children heal. Yes. And they weren't going to heal if you were still beating yourself up about [00:42:30] having stayed too long or having blamed yourself for it happening in the first place.
Mariana Alvarez: And having a daughter and. And she was always so close to me. So she she witnessed a lot. Yeah. She witnessed a lot more than what my son did. And for being a, a little girl, a woman as well. I, I feel like I have to make sure that I get myself in a good place, [00:43:00] that I stand strong, but not just a facade that I am really strong internally. So she can see that she can also heal and move on and go to the other side and build a life. Yeah. And find beautiful people in her her path as well.
Nancy McClelland: You know, you mentioned there the difference between being strong, not a facade. Um, and I think sometimes anger is something that makes us think [00:43:30] that we're being strong. And in fact, anger is, Um, a protective. Yeah, totally protective emotion. Um, so you let go of the anger and replaced it with internal strength.
Mariana Alvarez: And my, I wanted to bring peace back to the house. And I want my children to come home and grow up in a house where there was peace, where silence didn't mean, oh, now we can breathe. [00:44:00]
Nancy McClelland: Right?
Mariana Alvarez: Silence mean we are okay. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Silence means not only you can breathe. You can sing, you can yell, you could cry. You could do whatever.
Mariana Alvarez: You can talk. And you can walk and do whatever you wanted. And you are free to just be yourself in your own house.
Nancy McClelland: It must have taken a long time for I mean, you talked about this struggle with rediscovering who you are in the first place, right? So you probably didn't know what to do with that silence at first.
Mariana Alvarez: No, [00:44:30] I worked a lot. I work long hours. I worked a lot.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, gosh. We can hide so much behind, uh, behind.
Mariana Alvarez: Work. I know, I know. But it was it helped at the right time. It helped. And now I'm learning that I don't need to be hiding anymore behind the the facade of anger or even the facade of the work.
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Mariana Alvarez: I can have time for myself. I can just relax and be happy. I don't [00:45:00] have to be always doing something either to hide a feeling or to prevent a storm.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. That constant cycle of motion is something that you actually have learned to let go of and sit in those quiet moments and, and respect them for the freedom that they're giving you. That's incredible. Um, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our audience? You know, we're, [00:45:30] all women in accounting, maybe working in a CPA firm or a firm or running our own firms or taking a break from work while we stay home and raise our children. Um, we all have self-doubt. We all have self-blame. Um, is there anything you'd like to share as a, a parting thought with that audience?
Mariana Alvarez: I think we could parallel [00:46:00] a lot of what I went through. It was maybe a lot of women go through, maybe not in their household, but at the same at the workplace as well, while feeling diminished in some way somehow in an industry that it's male predominant. Um, we don't have to, we don't have to. It's very important that today I'm very adamant of being true to myself. If I like it, I like it. If I don't like it, I don't like it, and I don't need to apologize [00:46:30] for it.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness. Oh, you're making my hair stand on end. That is so compelling.
Mariana Alvarez: We apologize too much. We do apologize too much for anything and everything and we don't have to. We are all special in the way we are, and we all uniquely and individually have so much to add to each other, to the world, to our children. We just gotta put it out there and be happy about it and proud about it. [00:47:00]
Nancy McClelland: Proud about it. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Mariana, for sharing. I know it's, it's difficult to share this story and, and today on stage was the first time that you've done that publicly. And it is a great honor that, um, you decided to visit us on the podcast.
Mariana Alvarez: I appreciate the invitation. Appreciate you. Thank you. Nancy.
Nancy McClelland: Question. It is so amazing to me how two conversations that started in completely different places [00:47:30] ended up saying almost exactly the same thing. Katie reminded us that fear doesn't have to make our decisions, and Mariana reminded us that our past doesn't have to define our decisions.
Questian Telka: Yeah, and at the same time, neither one of them suggested that there would be some dramatic overnight transformation because it's just not the case.
Nancy McClelland: No, they they both kept coming back to that same idea. One step. [00:48:00] Maybe your step is starting a firm. Maybe it's leaving one.
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right. Maybe it is asking for help. Um, it's forgiving yourself. I'm sure that, um, many of us probably need to hear that in a lot of different aspects. So whatever it is, you don't have to know the entire path before you begin walking it. And I think that's an important distinction that people need to hear. I totally one step at a time.
Nancy McClelland: One step at a time. [00:48:30] Thank you so much for joining us for the first of three episodes in this super special series recorded at the Theater of Public Speaking Advanced Cohort. We will be back in two weeks with two more incredible women who found the courage to share stories that just might change the way you think about your own.
Questian Telka: As we wrap up, we would like to ask our listeners to follow the She Counts LinkedIn page and join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode [00:49:00] Beyond Fear the Courage to Begin Again. What fear has been making decisions for you lately? And what's one small step you could take to help redefine it?
Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote by Anais Nin. And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
Questian Telka: I love that.
Nancy McClelland: Me too.
Questian Telka: Thanks [00:49:30] for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: So you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmark dot links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will, as always, be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please remember to [00:50:00] subscribe. Leave us a review because it helps other people find the podcast. And also please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: And we'll see everyone in two weeks.