Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting, where your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: And Melissa Miller Fergeson sitting in for Questian.
Nancy McClelland: Every episode, we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Because if you've [00:00:30] ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season three sponsors Bill, Relay and Carbon.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: We're so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on the sponsors page at She Counts dot show.
Nancy McClelland: And if you want to support the podcast, the one thing that makes the biggest impact [00:01:00] is to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Reviews really do help others find us.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Remember, you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit, and please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is the second of three that came out of the theater of Public Speaking curtain call. The in person advanced retreat where I got to visit and talk with the keynote speakers there. Melissa [00:01:30] has joined us on the podcast before, and she's been through the theater of Public speaking intermediate program herself, and she knows both of the women you're going to hear from today very well. So I'm especially happy to have her in the studio for this conversation. Welcome back Melissa.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: You definitely know me well enough to know that I am totally here for it. Two great friends dropping wisdom on She counts. Yes, please. Where do I sign up?
Nancy McClelland: I had a funny feeling you'd be up for it. [00:02:00] So, Melissa, the two conversations I'm sharing with you.
Nancy McClelland: Today begin in different places, but they're both about something we don't always give ourselves permission to do, which is understand who we are and then make choices that honor that understanding. One starts with introversion. The other starts with a life that changed dramatically after two strokes. But both are really about learning to work with yourself instead of constantly [00:02:30] pushing against yourself.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Which sounds simple. I don't think it always is.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I agree.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: We can spend a lot of years, and I know you and I both have.
Nancy McClelland: Yep.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Believing there's a particular way we're supposed to show up and judging ourselves when that way doesn't work for us.
Nancy McClelland: Yep. We were just talking about that on a WhatsApp earlier today, our first guest, Jean Zick, [00:03:00] talks about understanding herself as an introvert and recognizing that the things that drain her aren't personal failures, which she totally read them as for years, which is kind of the opposite of what happened with me because I read my spazzy extroversion as a personal failure. You know, like there's something wrong with me. But once Jean understood how she was wired, she realized that she could start being intentional about [00:03:30] what she needed building in breaks, finding smaller groups, connecting one on one, and recognizing that some of the qualities that she had struggled with were actually strengths.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Yeah. And knowing Jean, that totally fits. She's been working on this reframe for a while and helping others do the same.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it's been inspiring to watch. And then Terri Warren takes that idea somewhere different after being laid off and then suffering not one, but two [00:04:00] strokes. Terry had to confront the fact that the way she'd always worked simply was not an option anymore. And eventually she realized that honoring who she is meant redefining what success looks like for her.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: So Jean is really talking about understanding how you're wired. While Terry is confronting what happens when the person you are and what you need changes.
Nancy McClelland: Exactly, [00:04:30] yes. And that is why I wanted to put these conversations together, because understanding yourself isn't terribly useful if you keep demanding that you operate like somebody else, or like a version of yourself that doesn't exist anymore. So yeah, let's start with Jean.
Nancy McClelland: Jean, thank you so much for being with us on the podcast. I'm so happy to have [00:05:00] you here.
Jean Zick: Nancy, I am so excited to be on the podcast.
Nancy McClelland: Yay!
Jean Zick: I've been hoping you would invite me.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, well, see, it was just a matter of time.
Jean Zick: Right?
Nancy McClelland: And I knew that you were going to be at the Advanced Theater of Public Speaking retreat, but you did not know that I was going to be here, and
Jean Zick: I did not. It was such a surprise this morning. It was awesome.
Nancy McClelland: It was awesome. Um, Jean and I have been friends for a long time. We hang out at accounting conferences together pretty much whenever we have the opportunity. And so I [00:05:30] was really delighted when I realized I was going to have the opportunity to have you on the podcast. You are delivering a keynote. That is pretty exciting. Um, that is all about the millionaire introvert. Please tell me about it. Jean.
Jean Zick: This is a realization I came about for myself and realized that it's I'm not alone. And that's [00:06:00] where it comes from. And when I was young, I was sensitive to sounds I don't think I would. I was shy, I was timid, I would cry at the drop of anything and. But growing up and going to conferences and being in big crowds, you'd realize like, oh, wow, like this is really overwhelming. Yeah. And I realized over time that, okay, this is this is something I have to figure out how to break this down. Yeah. And it was really, you know, what I'm trying to do here? And part of my messaging is trying [00:06:30] to teach people some techniques for breaking down these situations and specifically.
Nancy McClelland: For introverts breaking down these situations or these things that work for everyone.
Jean Zick: I am aiming into introverts, but I don't think that it is exclusive to introverts.
Nancy McClelland: Okay, great. And I can see you're wearing a really super cool. For those of you who can't see Gene right now who are listening, she is wearing.
Jean Zick: A blouse that is covered in $20 bills.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I love it. And that looks like [00:07:00] Audrey Hepburn from Breakfast from Tiffany's.
Jean Zick: It's actually, um, so it's the Alice and Olivia brand.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, is it okay?
Jean Zick: Their character. That's very.
Nancy McClelland: Cool.
Jean Zick: Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So, um, give us a few tips then, introverts or otherwise. I mean, that's, I think it's.
Jean Zick: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: People presume that women in accounting are introverts, but it's amazing how many of us are extroverts. I would like to learn more about what it looks like on the other side.
Jean Zick: Okay. Wow. [00:07:30] And as an introvert, sometimes it's hard to express what it's like on the other side. And that's and on this side, you know, the biggest, one of the key differences, extroverts really thrive on all that stimulation. You walk into a room, there's bright lights, there's people talking, there's all these things. And extroverts are like, bring it on. Yeah. And introverts are like, where can I go hide?
Nancy McClelland: Because it's all about where your battery gets recharged, right?
Jean Zick: It's about, it's about where that energy is. And I actually start [00:08:00] my talk with, with being at a conference where I didn't know anybody and I was just completely drained of energy. And I don't want to give away the whole story, but I just realized after that that something had to change. Yeah. And I was just starting my career as a CFO. I knew I'd be networking. I'd be going to places. I actually, at the time, um, had, uh, not too long before that gone back to work because I was home for a while when my kids were young. So I was going back into the business world. And in these situations and realizing, wow, this [00:08:30] is just really draining me of energy. I need to do something about it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Jean Zick: So from there, I just started thinking about what is it that will work for me? And that's sort of my first tip is identify that the situations are there and right.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you don't know the reason that you're getting drained, if you don't know the reason, you're feeling overwhelmed, if you don't know why you want to go hide, how are you going to do anything about it? Right?
Jean Zick: So the first thing you need to do [00:09:00] is identify and then accept it. It's it's, I think the first thing is you're in these situations and you're feeling overwhelmed and you're thinking, what's wrong with me?
Nancy McClelland: Mhm, mhm.
Jean Zick: And there's nothing wrong with you. Yeah. We're just wired differently. And accept that. Yeah. It's my peace. Accept that and then start thinking about how you can use those situations to your advantage.
Nancy McClelland: Do you want to know something funny? As an extreme extrovert, I always thought there was something wrong with me. We [00:09:30] all feel that way, right? We all feel isolated. We all feel alone.
Jean Zick: We are all on one big spectrum. Yeah. And we're all in different places of it. And I think exactly, we all need to just figure out where we're at and accept it and then what works for us. And you probably felt like, what's wrong with you because you're in the world of like, accountants are introverts, right? We're known to be introverts. So this is great. And here's this major extrovert is like, hey, I'm here, crazy lady. And people are like, girl, what is wrong with you? [00:10:00] Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with you. I love your energy. I love your excitement and your energy. And I'm glad it's there. And I think actually, you know, when you're aware of those situations, then introverts and extroverts can really figure out how to play that off. Like one of my tips is if conferences are something that really bothers you, then have a wing person. Yeah. Like who would be my best wing person? Nancy. Right. She could talk to anybody if I don't, if I don't feel that way. But it's [00:10:30] true though.
Nancy McClelland: As a matter of fact, Sharon Fuller and I are we decided because we're both so extroverted. We call ourselves accounting conference socialites, and we're doing a series of LinkedIn lives where we tell people like which conferences we're going to and what we're packing and what events we're going to, and we're telling everybody, if you're uncomfortable at all, come find us. We will make sure that you meet other people. You do not have to be the wallflower because we [00:11:00] can be that for you. Yeah. I love that you're saying that. Yeah, it just came up with this idea a couple weeks.
Jean Zick: I'm loving that idea. Yeah. That's so awesome. I'm bringing, um, conference coming up. You know, this month, later this month is scaling new heights. And I've been bringing team members to it the past couple of years. So I'm bringing team members and several of them. It's their first conference, so I'm going to make sure.
Nancy McClelland: Are they nervous?
Jean Zick: I think no, they'll be fine. Okay. I'll have each other. But I do want them to meet other people. Yes. I do want to make sure they're meeting other people. But one of the as I brought people, the [00:11:30] team members the past couple of years, one of the things is on day one, they have that first timers breakfast.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Jean Zick: Yeah. And I said, breakfast is.
Nancy McClelland: Amazing. I went to it my first scaling new heights And I remember I think it was maybe Kelly Gonsalves. It was. There was somebody in the room who was, um, you know, a volunteer. They have volunteers at each of the tables who've been many times and they will like, I don't want to say, hold your hand, but like, if you need your hand held, they'll hold your hand and.
Jean Zick: They'll check in with.
Nancy McClelland: You. Yeah, they'll [00:12:00] throughout the conference. It's not just at the breakfast. Right.
Jean Zick: And so.
Nancy McClelland: You already know one person, you.
Jean Zick: Know, one person, one new person. And they'll introduce you to others. Yes. Yeah. So that I, that and I also encourage them to read the article you put out on MSN every year. So now I'm like, now I have another thing. It's like Nancy has a LinkedIn thing all about going to conferences. Yeah. So that's, we'll start with that.
Nancy McClelland: Awesome. Oh my God. So I think the first.
Jean Zick: As I said, the first thing is, is break it down and figure out. I think the second thing with conferences in those big events, and I'm, you know, my [00:12:30] type A side wants to go and do everything and fill up every timeslot. I'm like, I paid all this money I need to fill up every time slot totally. But I can't. And I will schedule it all out. And then by like, you know, halfway through the second day, I'll be like, okay, I need to check out for a while and write time out and build that time out into your schedule.
Nancy McClelland: Totally. That's, that's so intentional.
Jean Zick: That time out into your schedule and make it intentional. In the early conferences, I felt like I was hiding. When I do that [00:13:00] now, I know I'm using it to re-energize.
Nancy McClelland: I love that because it's actually the same thing. You're just changing the perspective on it. It's just how you're looking at it and you're reframing it.
Jean Zick: And reframing it, and I'm making it do it proactively. Yeah. I think one of the problems with introverts, we get into these situations, we get overstimulated, there's all this noise, there's all these people. It's just like this whole crowded. And then you're like, oh my gosh, you know, your brain might start slowing you down and you're like, what's going on with me? What's [00:13:30] wrong with me? Again, nothing's wrong with you. It's your brain is purposely slowing you down. It's helping you cope. So that's your signal and use that and know that make that time.
Nancy McClelland: So I love that you actually have to go through it and do the thing that you said about identifying in order to find the signal. And then when the signal happens again, you recognize it.
Jean Zick: Recognize.
Nancy McClelland: It.
Jean Zick: And build it in. Yeah. So build in those breaks to save your energy. Mhm. Yes. You won't be able to go to every session at every time, but frankly, you [00:14:00] won't be able to absorb all the information anyway.
Nancy McClelland: It's true. It's true. I am an extreme extrovert, and I'm also trying to do all of the sessions and even like, that's something that whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, you can't do it all. And so I love the advice to schedule the downtime ahead of time because you know, you're going to need it.
Jean Zick: You're going to need it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I do. I know last year, I got to a certain point at scaling and I said, I need to take a break for a while. And I went outside, [00:14:30] I walked around, I got some water, I got a snack, just enough to kind of reset everything and then yeah, and then come back in and do more.
Nancy McClelland: You know, you talk about how introverts actually have superpowers. Um, and I, I really that resonated with me because I am married to an extreme introvert and he and I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to live together in a way that's good for both of us. Um, because [00:15:00] of my battery gets charged when I'm with people, but it actually discharges like, and then when I'm away from people, I have low battery. And so like, how do I get my battery back up when I'm alone? I have exactly the inverse situation that you and my husband do. And I loved it when you were saying, well, some of these things are actually a superpower that introverts can use. They, um, great example with my husband, he is much more likely to have a quiet [00:15:30] one on one or small group conversation. So we'll go to these accounting conferences, for example, or even just out with friends, right? And he will have more to say at the end of the night to me about what he learned about people and what's going on in our friends lives, than I will, because I saw 50 people and had two seconds with each one, and he pulled the introvert superpower out of his pocket and [00:16:00] spent quality time asking real questions and going deeper. And I, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that, how that has worked for you.
Jean Zick: We are empathetic listeners, introverts. We, we love, you know, one of the things I love with, um, going through tops theater public speaking with Misty and one of the things we learn about is the power of the pause. And we're very comfortable with that silence and that pause and listening and taking things in. And that's great. He uses that [00:16:30] time. He goes one on one. He is getting what he needs to get. If he were going to talk to 50 different people, he'd be like, I'm done.
Nancy McClelland: Totally.
Jean Zick: Yeah. Totally toast. He would tap out. Totally tap out. Yeah. Yeah. And so being in those conversations, and that was one of the things I found, especially in those big, I mean, like two big networking organizations. And I was in the room and I'm just like, oh my God, I don't know anybody. But these are good places to be. And so I joined a committee. So here I get to know like 8 or 10 people over time.
Nancy McClelland: That is a great [00:17:00] tip.
Jean Zick: The whole group.
Nancy McClelland: That is a fantastic tip. So instead of trying to connect with everybody in the networking organization, the getting on a committee gave you what we were just talking about that.
Jean Zick: That small group.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, that's such a great idea.
Jean Zick: Break it down so well with conferences as well being part of Tops. Yeah, being part of smaller groups, whether it's a meetup or maybe it's just a vendor that you've gotten to know a little bit better going and hang out.
Nancy McClelland: That's a great.
Jean Zick: Point. Yeah. Anything, whatever works for you and what works [00:17:30] for me might not work for the next person, but let's figure out what works as a way to break it down.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. That's fantastic. So what would your advice be for women who are in accounting? They don't necessarily get the opportunity to go to these conferences, but they're dealing with this day to day in their work at maybe a CPA firm or a CAS firm, or even running their own firm.
Jean Zick: Oh big question. I think it starts with networking. As I said in the networking organization, look for the [00:18:00] committee you can be part of. Um, look for, um, I say, you know, support hopefully in the firm, it'd be great if in the firm, maybe there's support, maybe there's a small group.
Nancy McClelland: Or mentorship.
Jean Zick: A mentorship program, uh, in, in the firm would be good. So I run a fully virtual firm and we, one of the things we do, and I try to be intentional about building this, one of my goals with the culture is to make sure we're very collaborative, even though we're in like 12 or 13 different states right now. [00:18:30] And I've got all these people, and one of the things we do is we use in Slack, there's an app called donut. Donut, donut.
Nancy McClelland: Okay.
Jean Zick: And essentially every month, it randomly sets us up with one other person for our donut meeting.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, cool.
Jean Zick: Half an hour. So you're actually meeting. We're at the water cooler.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Jean Zick: Okay. A little built in. It's the water cooler. Sit down for half an hour and talk about whatever goal is. Don't talk about work. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, okay. Actually, that's key. Goal is don't talk about work. All right.
Jean Zick: And then you're [00:19:00] getting to know that person better. And I love the donuts. I've always loved, you know, even we've been virtual from the beginning. And I've always loved when I was one on one with someone, you know, on Zoom. Great. I'd love to be in person even more, but on Zoom, one on one, having that conversation, that's fantastic. I think that's starting with it.
Nancy McClelland: You know, we did a thing. Um, we have a quarterly paid happy hour because we also run a virtual firm and we send everybody like a, um, a cocktail kit or a mocktail kit and a snack pack and [00:19:30] we all get on a zoom and, um, we try to do a different activity each time that we do this. And this time just last week, I sent out decks of, um, conversation starters that were all related to celebrations, like how people celebrate what, you know, what's your walk on song or, you know, what's a dream trip that you would take, uh, to celebrate something or just all sorts of things. And everybody had to pick three of them out. Um, so that we didn't have any duplicates [00:20:00] and, uh, and pick that one that was theirs and, and answer the question for everybody and then give everybody a takeaway. So for example, if it was a dream trip that you took, you know, maybe send a photo, if it was a song that you always love, you know, maybe send a link to that song or something like that. It was really, really fun. And that's a great way to get introverts involved because once they know the other people on the team. Right. Right. They [00:20:30] can take it from there.
Jean Zick: And so we we also have a monthly all team meeting, which is mostly educational. And one of our more recent team members, she was actually a teacher before she cool joined our firm. She switched careers and she was teaching during the pandemic. So she was dealing with students on Zoom. And she had suggested we usually do an icebreaker question at the beginning of the meeting. She says, why don't we do that in breakout rooms as a way to warm people up?
Nancy McClelland: Oh, that's a great idea.
Jean Zick: It was genius. Yeah, we do like maybe a 3 to 5 [00:21:00] minute breakout room with an icebreaker question, like three people in the room, and it gets them talking with each other. So again, it's another opportunity to be social and get to know each other better.
Nancy McClelland: Now, do you have any pushback on any of that? I think of a dear friend of mine, Tori McKee, is extremely introverted but also very, very committed to, um, collaborative community building. Um, and we're actually going to be doing a panel together at bridging the gap, um, called, uh, connecting, not collecting about [00:21:30] networking in a way where you're not just collecting each other's business cards and you're not just collecting people who can do things for you, but you're really connecting. But as an extreme introvert, and she's also very shy, the type of things that we're talking about here would terrify her. Do you get any pushback from people?
Jean Zick: Everyone knows everybody. So, I mean, within the firm, we're doing this right. And so everyone does know everybody. Yeah. And they're on, you know, on a monthly team meeting. We've got the donut meetings to get to know each other. Uh, they also without me meet as [00:22:00] a group, the, the, the client service team meets as a group, um, every other week they do tech training or they do just sort of check in huddles. So there's always some sort of communication with them.
Nancy McClelland: So it's more when somebody comes in that's new that someone comes a little bit more of a hurdle. Yeah. Um, so what's the one thing that you would like to leave our listeners, women in accounting with that, um, that whether you're actually. I want to say for people who are listening, whether they're the introvert who [00:22:30] needs to hear your message, or the extrovert who needs to remember what the introverts out there are, are struggling with.
Jean Zick: Well, I think, you know, I think probably one of the first things, so as I mentioned earlier, that introverts have great listening skills, right? Empathetic listeners, I would say to the extroverts in the, in the room, remember your listening skills and remember that sometimes you need to pause and just let hear the other people around you.
Nancy McClelland: Learn from the introvert [00:23:00] and learn.
Jean Zick: Learn from introverts. Introverts. You have a lot of mad superpowers and start thinking what they are and start using them. And I'm to be honest, I'm amazed. I'm amazed at where I'm at with, you know, being incredibly sensitive and timid and shy in the beginning and being out there, having to put myself out there in front of people. I will be speaking at scaling new Heights this year.
Nancy McClelland: I'm so excited!
Jean Zick: Yay! Congratulations!
Jean Zick: People of all friendly people that that.
Nancy McClelland: You [00:23:30]know i'll be there.
Jean Zick: I know, I know, I might, well, I might be at your time though.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, we're not at the same time.
Jean Zick: On the last day.
Nancy McClelland: Last session. On the last day.
Jean Zick: Oh second to last.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, good. Okay, I'll be in the first half of yours then. Okay. And then after you're done, you can come over and mine. Yours. I'll come to yours.
Jean Zick: Uh, yeah. So I'd say, I say that I think I think just really to the introverts, if you're feeling that something is wrong with you, remember nothing is wrong with you. Yeah. And it's really just you're wired differently and take a break [00:24:00] and think about it and figure out what works for you and then make that happen.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you so much for being here today. It means so much to me. Give me a hug. Of course, of course. Yay! Thank you. And, um, good luck. Or break a leg. What am I supposed to say?
Jean Zick: How do we break a leg?
Nancy McClelland: Break a leg. Okay, break a leg on that keynote today. I know you're gonna kill it.
Jean Zick: Okay.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you. Congrats. What [00:24:30] I love about Gene's perspective is how practical it is. She's not trying to turn herself into somebody who loves walking into a giant room full of strangers. She figured out what those environments do to her, and then she started designing ways to navigate them that work for her engagement style. It's very Myers-Briggs. I actually, I want to go back to her and ask if she's big into that personality inventory.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: You know, what got me was Gene's [00:25:00] point about the strengths introverts bring with them.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Listening, going deeper, being comfortable with pauses, building those one on one relationships. Once you understand those things about yourself, you can start using them intentionally.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, I totally agree. And even as the extreme extrovert in that conversation, I could recognize things that I can learn from her. I also really loved what she said about [00:25:30] scheduling breaks at conferences. She used to feel like she was hiding when she stepped away, and now she understands that she's intentionally giving herself what she needs to recharge. And so the behavior itself didn't necessarily change, but her understanding of it and like her permission and her framing of it for herself, that totally did.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Right. And once you understand why you need something, you can stop judging yourself for needing it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's. Yeah, that [00:26:00] totally sits so true and real for me. And I think actually that that's where Jean's conversation starts to connect so beautifully with Teri's. Now, Teri is a dear friend of mine and I know yours too. And her story is obviously very different. She has had to learn what her mind and body need after two strokes changed. Like literally changed what she's capable of doing in a given day. But for [00:26:30] me, and I hope for our listeners, what makes her story so powerful is that understanding herself meant accepting that she couldn't keep measuring herself against the person she used to be.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: And knowing Terry, I think that's especially insightful.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: She's someone with an incredible drive and work ethic, and accepting that the way she works might have to change. Doesn't mean that the person underneath [00:27:00] all of that has disappeared.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, totally. And Terry has this beautiful visual metaphor for exactly that, which you'll hear us talk about. Her cape of confidence is what she calls it. The first version represented the success she had built for herself. And then after her strokes, she felt like that cape had just been ripped away from her and she had to earn it back. And eventually she realized she [00:27:30] didn't need to become the old Terry again. She needed a cape that fit the Terry she is now. But as you said, the person underneath all of that hadn't yet disappeared. So she comes up with a really beautiful and powerful representation of it. Are you ready?
Melissa Miller Fergeson: I can't wait.
Nancy McClelland: Terri, I am so excited to have you here on She Counts. Terry Warren is a dear, [00:28:00] dear friend of mine who, um, we were in, I think our intermediate one of the intermediate theater public speakings that I took was with you. And is that where we met each other originally? I don't remember. I feel like I've known you forever.
Terri Warren: No, we were in realize together.
Nancy McClelland: Oh that's right. It was because we were in realize. That's how Katie Healy and I met also. I also interviewed her on this series, and we realized that that was where we met each other. That's right. [00:28:30] Well, Terri Warren, one of my favorite people, I love her so much. And, um, I, I'm gonna say something in particular that's a little bit hard to share, but is very, very true. Um, Terri has had a couple of strokes over the past few years, and I am one of the people, uh, that she has reached out to because I believe we repaired as accountability partners in theater, public speaking when you had your first stroke. And it really meant a [00:29:00] lot to me that I was one of the people that you sort of let in, uh, when that was going on. And then, um, when we were at Women who Count together, um, you and your husband had reached out to Mark and me him as being like kind of people who could sort of keep an eye on you and make sure that everything was going okay. And as somebody myself who has, um, challenging mobility issues and it's really, really hard to travel without Mark and he is not here with me on this [00:29:30] trip. I feel like I'm sharing some of that vulnerability back with you. Um, and I know this is a big part of the story that you're going to share with us. And so I just wanted to make sure I shared that with you ahead of time, how special it feels to be one of those people in your life who got quote unquote, let in.
Terri Warren: Yes you are. You're not just let in. You are in the house. You're sitting on my couch and you're just here just soaking up everything. So you are part of me, just so you know.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, Terry, that means so much to me. Yeah, it [00:30:00] means so much to me. So the keynote that you're giving here at Theater of Public Speaking is about, um, how success means different things to different people, how we go through different phases of our lives when we redefine success. And for those of you who are watching this on YouTube, as opposed to just listening to this, she's brought a very beautiful prop with her to illustrate some of these concepts that she's going to share with us. So Terry, um, tell your, [00:30:30] our audience, please share a little bit of your story.
Terri Warren: So basically it just started with, um, in this, all this concept of this speech really was birthed from when I left the corporate type of world of public accounting. And, um, I was laid off and it totally shattered everything I knew about myself.
Nancy McClelland: Really.
Terri Warren: It challenged my value. It challenged [00:31:00] who I was, my identity of where I said everything because I built myself up to define success in a certain way. Away. And so that's the way that I always worked. And then all from prior to that, I was always working a certain way. So drive, drive, drive, push, push, push work, work, work. That was what the success was supposed to be. And then that would pay off. Mhm. So [00:31:30] that's what I started to do as soon as I was laid off. After I picked myself drive.
Nancy McClelland: Drive, drive, work, work, work.
Terri Warren: Work, work, work. Yes.
Nancy McClelland: So here you are. You're completely devastated because you had this job that you loved. You were doing work that was meaningful to you. You thought, if I act a particular way, this definition of success is going to show up. And instead you get laid off. So you're devastated.
Terri Warren: Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: But then you go back to the same pattern.
Terri Warren: Yes, I did, [00:32:00] I did. It was ingrained in me. That was, you know, growing up is what you do. You just work, you work hard, you work long and you work until you see that success. But the success for me was always within someone else's built walls. And so I had to build my own walls. I had to build up what it meant for me. And so I did that. Um, I did that with the help of a community. Like you like, realize like all [00:32:30] the friends and all the people that I actually just pulled together and they helped me to put on my cape of confidence.
Nancy McClelland: Your cape of confidence. Is that what this beautiful thing is that you've got right here?
Terri Warren: Yes. So this is my cape of confidence. So it's bright pink and very shiny.
Nancy McClelland: It's got lots of sparkles on it and I am. Oh, wow. It's not just got sparkles on [00:33:00] it. You've got all these things hanging on little crystals and pom poms hanging off the bottom.
Terri Warren: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. This thing is gorgeous.
Terri Warren: Y'all, I have to tell you. My daughter Sydney, she made this.
Nancy McClelland: She made.
Terri Warren: It. She made.
Nancy McClelland: It. Oh, I'm taking a picture of you while we're recording the podcast. This is fantastic. Oh.
Terri Warren: Yes, she did. And she is amazing at this. And, um. Yeah, I mean, I could go on and on and on about how fantastic she is at this kind of stuff. But so in [00:33:30] my speech, my cape of confidence is what helped me drive, continue to drive and continue to do things because it was paying off. Mhm. Until I had my first stroke and I spent 12 months in all kinds of different rehab and, and everything else, building myself back to earn this again.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. So you felt like [00:34:00] you didn't it.
Jean Zick: Got.
Terri Warren: Ripped off. Really what it felt like.
Nancy McClelland: That's amazing. Yeah. Where did the concept of the Cape of Confidence come from in the first place? I mean, did you have this before you even started that first gig that you got laid off from or like, no, all right. This was this was something this.
Terri Warren: Was built for the speech. Uh huh. And so this, the concept of it was just when I was asked to just define my story and write it out. This is that's just what [00:34:30] came out. Got it. It was it made sense. Yeah. It fit.
Nancy McClelland: So this analogy of the cape of confidence, of having to earn it back, um, came out of that. Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. Yeah. And so what happened here. You are devastated a second time, right? Like so the layoff happens the first time around. You work work, work, you build it back up. Uh, but this time when you're building it back up, it's your own definition of success, right? It's not somebody else's definition.
Terri Warren: Exactly. Yes.
Nancy McClelland: And then you get that ripped away from you. [00:35:00]
Terri Warren: I do, yeah. I build it back. I build it better. Um, I gained that momentum once again. And then I have another stroke. Wow. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Terri Warren: And it just was such a wake up call. This particular stroke. Yeah. The second one was like telling me to sit my butt down.
Nancy McClelland: I love it. I love the way you talk. I love that [00:35:30] you can talk about a stroke that way. So they were a year apart?
Terri Warren: Yeah. About a year and a half apart.
Nancy McClelland: About a year and a half apart.
Terri Warren: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And so you've you've got your own definition of success. You work, work, work. You build it up. So you're wearing this cape of confidence. It gets ripped off. You have to earn it back.
Terri Warren: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: And that takes a year. There's like a year and a half where you're doing this, and then you have that second stroke. [00:36:00] How did you even get back up after that? You spent all this time earning back your cape of confidence?
Terri Warren: Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: What do you even do with that?
Terri Warren: Um, I really battled with myself. Yeah. For about four months. And. I had to figure out if the old way was going to work still.
Nancy McClelland: The work, work, work.
Terri Warren: Work, work, work, work. The whole scoreboard that I used to have for myself, the model of work [00:36:30] that I used to do and used to have, whether or not that was going to continue to work. So that's what I tried to do for four months. And I did it ten times harder. I'm like, I'm going to push through. I'm stubborn as hell.
Nancy McClelland: So you are stubborn as hell.
Terri Warren: Yes I am. And I was going to prove to the universe that this was not going to be my story. This was going to not define me. I'm going to do it my way because I said so.
Nancy McClelland: So weren't [00:37:00] you worried, though, that you were just going to have a third stroke.
Terri Warren: Oh, every single moment of my day, even when I was sleeping, I would wake up in the middle of the night and shake my hands, shake my feet, just go like this with my head and just figure out, you know, make sure that things were working. Wow. Like they were supposed.
Nancy McClelland: To, like, check in on yourself.
Terri Warren: Yep.
Nancy McClelland: Just.
Terri Warren: Yeah. If I would wake up and think, okay, what woke me up? Do you know, just check.
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Terri Warren: Right. When I'm still intact.
Nancy McClelland: You know, I have awakened in the middle of the night [00:37:30] thinking that I was having a stroke because my entire right arm had fallen asleep. And it turns out I had a really bad pillow. Once I replaced the pillow, it was fine. That's what you thought when you had the stroke?
Terri Warren: The first one.
Nancy McClelland: Really?
Terri Warren: Absolutely. Because I woke up at 630 in the morning and that's the normal time I wake up. So I really didn't think much about it. I was a little groggy, which is normal too, but my arm wasn't working and I was that was the arm I was laying on, So [00:38:00] I just really thought I'd fallen asleep.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness.
Terri Warren: And I didn't notice. It wasn't working, honestly, until I went to the bathroom and tried to turn the light on and my arm was not obeying.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Terri Warren: So yeah, that's.
Nancy McClelland: That was a big.
Terri Warren: That was a big thing. Yeah. And then then my voice went and I couldn't talk. And then Hubster Brook.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Terri Warren: Just said, uh, we're leaving.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah.
Terri Warren: No. And the whole way of [00:38:30] him trying to get me to the hospital. I'm making excuse after excuse after excuse of why I should be going. No, let's just go to urgent care. Let's just wait for the doctor. Let's wait for this.
Nancy McClelland: Why were you doing that? You're not sure?
Terri Warren: I'm stubborn.
Nancy McClelland: You are.
Terri Warren: Stubborn. And my brain was not in was not functioning right? Right. I was not in a decision mode type of moment. So, um, he took over and, um, passed off our pup because I honestly, I wanted to take the dog out and, [00:39:00] um, he he just made sure I, I got to where I had to go.
Nancy McClelland: That's amazing. Yeah. All right. So the, so the second one happens and here's where I'm a little confused. Okay. So you said on the one hand, it's telling you you gotta sit your butt down. And on the other hand, you're trying to build back ten times harder because you're stubborn and you're trying to prove to the universe that this is not going to define you. Yes. All right. So which is the part where you're sitting your butt down if you're working ten times harder.
Terri Warren: Because working ten times harder and [00:39:30] doing things the way that I used to do them. I hit a brick wall.
Nancy McClelland: Oh.
Terri Warren: I worked and it was December and I had realized I was in not necessarily in over my head because old me could have done this with her eyes closed. But new me, this new brain, these new deficits that are there, they're slight, but they're there. And my energy is just drained. And [00:40:00] just being able to identify that I was not willing to accept that. Mhm. So my whole speech in the initial part of it is acceptance. Getting to acceptance so that you can then move to that next part and realize what is in your way. I was in the way.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. Your stubbornness.
Terri Warren: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Terri Warren: Yeah. Yeah. Change starts with you. That's what I [00:40:30] always say. So that. That is what happened. So then after that, I, um, I had to figure out then what my new goals were. What did reality look like for me? What was going to work and what wasn't? Mhm. So basically I had to fill out, create a new scoreboard for me.
Nancy McClelland: What did the new scoreboard look like compared to the old scoreboard?
Terri Warren: I don't need [00:41:00] I don't need layers and layers and layers of work and clients to be successful. Okay. I can use my talents and the things that I used to do with my sleep and train others to do that, and to coach others on how to remove that chaos within their firms and realign their teams.
Nancy McClelland: Which you're amazing at. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, one of the, um, one of the sponsors of our podcast this season is carbon. I don't know if you're aware [00:41:30] of that. Yeah. So I know you're like probably the most enthusiastic carbon. You're not just a carbon user. You're a power user and trainer. And carbon is my superpower. Carbon is your superpower. So you're teaching other people how to do this stuff because that's a way you can leverage the impact. Yes. That you can make, but not have it go beyond the limits of your energy right now.
Terri Warren: Yes, exactly. Being able to give that space [00:42:00] to myself, that I can identify and still step back in my day and give myself the care that I need. And even if it's just, just stopping, just putting the computer away and just stopping for the rest of the day, if that's what my body is telling me, and that's what I've begun to do, is be able to realize that a lot more and a lot faster than I used to do.
Nancy McClelland: And you're no longer seeing that as weakness, right? You're defining that this is like the fourth time in your life then where [00:42:30] you're redefining what success means.
Terri Warren: Fourth time in the last two years.
Nancy McClelland: Fourth time in the last year. Yes. My goodness.
Terri Warren: So yeah, yeah, it's always been a question, but I've always been able to manage. It's always had events. We all have this. Yeah. Where we have to check in with ourselves and realize that some of the change that we've been experiencing like AI right now. Yeah, it is such a big thing and it creates such anxiety. You know, we we lose [00:43:00] 12 billion workdays in one year to depression and anxiety and A AI is causing that to be even higher.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. Yeah, I had no idea. I mean, I'm not surprised, but I did not know that.
Terri Warren: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Terri Warren: So that was where I was headed.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Terri Warren: To so and I was able to recognize that just a little bit faster. And when you when you wake up in the morning and you realize that, um, you don't want to go [00:43:30] to work.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Terri Warren: That's telling you something.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Terri Warren: So that was telling.
Nancy McClelland: Especially given how much you love your job.
Terri Warren: I do. I absolutely love my job.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Probably more than anybody I know. I mean, I know a lot of people who we all love our jobs. Yeah. But you are way up there.
Terri Warren: I do.
Nancy McClelland: So show me the reverse side of this because I know there's another part of the story that our audience needs to hear.
Terri Warren: Yes. So as I got to that space, when I hit that brick wall, and I [00:44:00] had to redefine everything of what success would look like for me, what what my sense when I walked into a room, what that confidence looked like and what that cape looked like, and it was different. So my lovely daughter created a cape that still has me in it. I'm still stubborn. I'm still me. I'm still valuable.
Nancy McClelland: So the side of the cape that.
Terri Warren: Is.
Nancy McClelland: Pink with the sparkles.
Terri Warren: A [00:44:30] different colored cape.
Nancy McClelland: I love it. So this is for those of for our audience who's not watching us and can't see this beautiful, beautiful cape. Okay, so the one side, the cape she used to wear is bright pink with silver sparkles. Then there's a layer on the inside and on the I don't want to say back side of the Cape because this is a fully reversible cape. This is the side of the cape that is. It's darker, it's [00:45:00] more mature. It's still got sparkles, the sparkles are smaller. And they're really, uh, they're diffusely distributed across the fabric. Um, the floral fabric with um, some greens and blues and purples and all of these absolutely gorgeous flowers. So you're still wearing a cape?
Terri Warren: I am.
Nancy McClelland: So this is the way that you and that cape has your quote unquote [00:45:30] old self.
Terri Warren: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: And your new self as parts of the cape. And this is what helps you visualize this transition that you've made.
Terri Warren: It does, it does. Because after my strokes, I just thought I've lost me.
Nancy McClelland: You were worried that you were gone and you were never gonna come back.
Terri Warren: Right? I felt like for a while I was faking it. Really I did. But [00:46:00] it wasn't. It's just I just had to redefine what it looked like for success for me, so that that piece of me could come back out again. Yeah. And flourish and not just be frustrated and pushing all the time.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh. That I mean, that that resonates so deeply with me because of, you know, my own medical struggles in 2017, 2018, I was worried [00:46:30] I would never be able to dance again. And there's still a lot that I can't do, but it doesn't mean that I don't know. Sometimes I felt like she was inside me, struggling to get out. Right? Mhm. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Terri Warren: It was like a boiling pot sometimes.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Terri Warren: Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. I am so glad for this analogy of the cape. This is really helpful because, I mean, I know most women wear capes. You know, there's the, the I don't know if you've seen the image [00:47:00] of, you know, how when you use the women's restroom, it it's like wearing an A-line skirt and, um.
Terri Warren: It looks like a cape.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yes. There's a thing out there that says it was never a dress. It's actually a woman wearing a cape. Um, I love this idea of the analogy of a double sided cape. And so you, you put on the side of the cape that is defining is your definition of today's success for you. [00:47:30]
Terri Warren: Right.
Nancy McClelland: I recently got back from wave Seattle and Aaron Cohen's conference there. And, um, it was all about defining our own success and not using somebody else's definition of success. And I feel like you've taken that to the next level with this analogy.
Terri Warren: Yeah. Yeah, it was great. I, um, you know, I learned that you can, you can continue to try and do things the way you always did, but it's not fair to you and to the person that you've become [00:48:00] to continue to try and do the things that aren't working anymore.
Nancy McClelland: That is such an amazing quote. That is absolutely beautiful.
Terri Warren: Thank you. I'm not Nicole Davis throwing out, you know, quotes left and right, just like gems. But I get 1 or 2 in every now. Oh my gosh.
Nancy McClelland: Nicole is going to be so happy. I'm putting her in the show notes right now. She is going to be so happy. Um, as a matter of fact, that's kind of funny because Nicole was one of our, uh, keynote speakers at [00:48:30] Wave Seattle that I was just talking about when she was talking about defining success. So that's perfect. Um, yeah, no, I mean, that the fact that you've, in my opinion, it was an extremely short amount of time for you to get all the way from, um, from layoff to first stroke to second stroke to this concept of self-acceptance and self-respect and redefining [00:49:00] your success in a way that honors who you are now.
Terri Warren: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: As opposed to feeling like your old self is lost.
Terri Warren: Exactly.
Nancy McClelland: That's just so beautiful.
Terri Warren: Yes. Thank you.
Nancy McClelland: Well, I'm thrilled that this ended up being the topic that you chose for your, your theater public speaking keynote. Um, it's something that I know all of our listeners, women in accounting can take away with [00:49:30] them. If there's one last thing you'd like to share with the audience before we wrap up.
Terri Warren: Be graceful with yourself. And I use this acronym. Is called Grow. There's a whole model out there about it. It's goal reality options and will. And if you examine those things for yourself, you'll examine your judgment and other people's judgment of you as you go through change. And you'll examine [00:50:00] your capacity and you'll examine your options. And you have to do those things. If you wait too long, you'll hit that brick wall. And if you can identify with each one of those acronyms, you already are hitting that brick wall. So don't wait. Find your new cape.
Nancy McClelland: I love it. Thank you so much for being here with us on She Counts. Terry. It has just been such an honor and joy to have you here.
Jean Zick: Oh.
Terri Warren: I am just so excited. I finally get to be [00:50:30] on here and.
Jean Zick: I.
Terri Warren: Love you so much.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you for being one of our most enthusiastic listeners, as well as a dear friend to us.
Nancy McClelland: Thanks, Terri.
Terri Warren: I love you.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Oh my gosh, that got me so emotional.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah me too.
Nancy McClelland: There's a line Terry said that I keep thinking about. It's not fair to the person you've become to continue trying to do the things that aren't working [00:51:00] anymore.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Yeah, that got me, too. Because she isn't saying she cares less about her work or that she has to stop doing meaningful things. She's recognizing that what she asks of herself has to fit the person she is now.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Which is where these two conversations, I mean, again, they just really come together for me because, you know, Jean, she was measuring herself against the way she thought she was supposed to function in a room full of people. Like she was [00:51:30] thinking, in order to do what I have to do, I have to become someone else. Right. And so she learned to stop measuring it that way. Whereas Terry had to stop measuring herself against the way she used to function before her strokes. Right.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: And in both cases, understanding themselves gave them more choices.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Jean can decide how she wants to navigate a conference or a room full of people. And [00:52:00] Terry can decide what success looks like within the capacity she has today.
Nancy McClelland: And neither of them is asking us to lower our expectations for ourselves. I mean, that is something, you know, I with all of the work I've done with cognitive behavioral therapy, I used to think it was just blowing sunshine up our rear ends. But it's not. We're not lowering our expectations for ourselves. They're asking us to make better choices because we understand ourselves better. Mhm.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: And for [00:52:30] Jean, that can mean finding a wing person, joining a smaller group, or taking a break before she's completely drained. Mhm. And for Terry, it can mean putting the computer away when her body tells her she's done or using the expertise she already has to teach and coach others. Instead of carrying the same workload she once did.
Nancy McClelland: And what works for you can change. Right. Like, that's one of the things she's teaching us. What you needed ten years ago or even two years ago [00:53:00] doesn't have to be what you need now. That's the piece that I really want to leave people with. Understanding yourself gives you the ability to build a life and a career that works with who you are. And when you change, you get to revisit that understanding. Right. Like you don't owe the world a version of yourself that doesn't fit anymore.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Yeah. I mean, whether that's because you finally understood something about yourself that was always there. [00:53:30]
Nancy McClelland: Or because life has changed you into someone new. Oh, Melissa, thank you so much for joining us today for the second episode in this super special series recorded at the Tops Curtain call. I really appreciate your stepping in and sharing this one with me. It totally feels like Mister Rogers Neighborhood.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: I'm so glad to do it. Gene and Terry are amazing women, and I'm so glad to be a part of sharing their stories with the world.
Nancy McClelland: We will be back [00:54:00] with our final two conversations from Curtain Call in the next episode.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: As we wrap up. We'd like to ask listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode Understanding Yourself, honoring how you're wired, and who you've become. What are you still asking of yourself that no longer fits who you are?
Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote by Alice Walker. [00:54:30] The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: Thanks for being here with us on She Counts. The Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: So you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links [00:55:00] to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resources. And there are lots of them will be in the show notes.
Melissa Miller Fergeson: And please subscribe and leave a review because it helps other people find the podcast. Also, please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: And we'll see everyone in two weeks.