Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. I'm your host, Nancy McClelland, and every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Madeline Reeves: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to [00:00:30] our season three sponsors Bill, Relay and Carbon. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at She counts.com.
Madeline Reeves: Remember, you can also go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit. And please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: Thanks for helping me out there, Maddy. [00:01:00] Unfortunately, question is struggling to get her kids registered at their new schools. Talk about a topic that we've discussed on the podcast, parental responsibilities that women in business have to deal with that land on them disproportionately. So I asked our guest if she would join me in the intro and outro. And speaking of guests, we've got my good friend Madeline Reeves. She is the founder and CEO of Fearless Foundry, a global collective of senior brand [00:01:30] and marketing specialists, as well as the creative director behind Advisory amplified one of my favorite conferences, and she got to join us on the podcast last year to talk about women led conferences in the accounting space. And I want to mention that you can get a 20% discount off of your ticket with my code, Nancy dash ROADIE, or 25% off if you bring more than one person from your firm. But I digress. Maddie [00:02:00] has built a career at the intersection of finance, technology and innovation. I truly believe that that's that's like such a great description of what it is that you do. Maddie. And she is sought after globally for her expertise in go to market strategy, creative production, and scaling companies. She is also a podcast host, an angel investor, and a mentor through the University of Washington Women's Entrepreneurship and Leadership Program. And [00:02:30] most importantly, she's been a good friend not only to us and to she counts, but to our dear friend Aaron Kohan as a sponsor of wave, another of our favorite conferences. Welcome to She Counts Maddie.
Madeline Reeves: Thank you Nancy. I've been looking forward to this conversation for weeks, I feel like. So I'm really excited to be here and to dive in with you.
Nancy McClelland: Well, it's funny because like, we're both looking forward to this conversation, but it's actually an incredibly Uncomfortable subject we're going to be talking about when women don't [00:03:00] treat other women fairly in the business world. And we love watching each episode with a story. As you know, Maddie, I know you have one that really helped you start asking the questions about this really uncomfortable topic. And you had posted about it on LinkedIn, and I immediately grabbed it and I put it in our, in our like ideas for future topics and reached out. And, um, we've had a lot of good conversations about it since then. Share your story with us.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah. Nancy. I'm [00:03:30] really looking forward to this topic, even though it is uncomfortable because we're the kind of women who I think are really visible in a landscape where there's an expectation and a lot of discussion around this idea of women supporting women. And we both know as people who have been so supportive of so many women throughout our careers, that the reality is more complicated than that.
Nancy McClelland: And oh my gosh, it sure is. I'll agree with that 100%.
Madeline Reeves: Right. And I feel like for every, uh, [00:04:00] you know, story I have of uplifting women, maybe every 5 to 10 stories, I want to say there's definitely more positive than there are negative. I also have a story of being, you know, turned down, taken advantage of diminished. And I think that, you know, we don't talk about these things publicly as often as maybe we should, because I want to live in a positive environment. I want to believe that, you know, women have best intentions. Um, but and also.
Nancy McClelland: Also, we don't, you [00:04:30] know, it can be seen as tearing each other down and, um, exacerbating a, a perception that there's this cycle of, of competition among women and we don't want to perpetuate that. So that's one of the reasons I think that these, these real stories sometimes don't see the light of day is that, you know, we don't want to we don't want to make that cycle worse. Right?
Madeline Reeves: 100%. And and I and I, you know, don't want to be somebody who's, you know, seen as dragging other women down. But I also think there's honest [00:05:00] dialogs we need to have about the ways that we maybe undercut or take advantage of each other at times. Um, yeah, because definitely in my journey as a business leader and as somebody who worked in my career almost primarily and exclusively with women, almost all my clients at a certain point in my career were, were women. Um, you know, I've, I've come up against these experiences that feel distinct to the, the, the women to women dynamic, I would say. And, you know, when we were thinking about recording this episode, [00:05:30] like one, one moment stood out to me in in particular, you know, this, this experience I had that I feel like is kind of indicative of this bigger way that we as women internalize maybe a belief that probably has a lot more to do with ourselves or kind of like our societal perceptions that we've internalized, but then project them on other women. And so.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you mentioned the projecting them onto other women, because that is one of the reasons that we need to tell these stories [00:06:00] is that we feel alone. Otherwise we're the only one that this ever happened to. We carry shame or a sense of failure, or I'm not being supportive or they weren't being supportive. So yeah, we don't want to project any of this. And yes. Oh, sorry. Please keep going on. Yeah, that really resonated well.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah. 100%. And so, you know, this moment was, was, you know, a couple years into, into my career, I had worked with somebody who, you know, I had known throughout the industry for a while. Um, we had been brought like a pretty specific project [00:06:30] on, on behalf of this person. And, and I was really proud of the work that we did. We had achieved really incredible results. It was a bit of a brand based project. We did a website, we did a big marketing launch for, for this person for something they were doing. And, you know, even though there were some, some bumpiness in terms of managing, uh, on the client side, you know, I felt like we'd really gone above and beyond and we got the end of the project. And, you know, as as many folks, you know, in the service space space know, it's like it's a moment of rescoping. And so we [00:07:00] got to that rescoping moment, we were asked explicitly, please put together a proposal. You know, that's everything. You know, just take it off your hands completely. We want your team to do all of the marketing, all of the feature launches. And I was like, awesome. You know, we'll go ahead and take care of that. Put all the time and energy into putting a proposal together. Had the proposal review meeting walked through. We're very thorough in that process. We walk through step by step, ask questions. You know, we're not met by any questions, any pushback on the call and was like, okay, well, you know, we're [00:07:30] really looking forward to kind of this next chapter. We'll send the agreement over. And I sent the agreement over to this person. And the response I got was, is this your pitta fee? And for those of you who don't know what pitta stands for, which I feel like everybody does.
Nancy McClelland: But I actually make I have a little emoji. I take a pitta, a pita bread emoji when I'm talking about somebody being a PITA.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah, pain in the ass, right? And so I was being I was being asked by this other woman, is this your pain in the ass price? And [00:08:00] I, you know, it's one of those moments where you're just like, what? You know.
Nancy McClelland: Did you feel blindsided?
Madeline Reeves: I absolutely did, and I didn't know how to respond to the email, but I just remember my first thought was, would you feel like you could say that to me if I was a man? And.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, wow.
Madeline Reeves: And, you know, I've reflected on it over the years and I'm like, I do think that this says something about, you know, where this person was at in terms of their own belief in terms of pricing and, you know, things of that nature. [00:08:30] And, um, and it has a lot more to probably do with them than it does with me, but it's just one of those examples where it's like, you know, behind closed doors, what are the things that we're doing and saying to other women to basically say, like, what that email said to me is like, who do you think you are charging that much and. Right. You know, and, and in hindsight, I'm like, okay, you know, again, probably because she wouldn't have felt comfortable putting together a proposal of that price.
Nancy McClelland: And I've been on [00:09:00] that side of it. So like, I do understand that like I'm things, things cost more than I think they do. Like I, I'm, I am stuck in a pre-pandemic sense of what things cost. And, um, and I know that that's part of it, but also that, that must have felt really insulting to you. Like, you know, that you did good work. You, you were asked to, to rescope. You were asked to do more.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah, yeah. And not only that, it's like, you know, I mean, these things have gotten easier in the last couple [00:09:30] of years with AI and better tools and things like that. But at the time, like putting a proposal together that that was like four plus hours worth of work plus.
Nancy McClelland: Still a ton of work. Let's be, let's be realistic. It may be easier than it used to be, but that is no small, it's no small.
Madeline Reeves: Feat, especially our agreements are almost entirely custom, you know. And then on top of it, you know, we'd given the hour, we'd gone above and beyond for them as a client. And, and for me, it was like, you know, there's so many different ways you can respond in that moment. Like if and if we're not [00:10:00] in the same ballpark, you can say, hey, I really appreciate the work you did. We're not playing in this ballpark right now. Or, hey, you know, that's beyond our budget. You know, we really enjoyed working with you. Can we do something that's more pared back as opposed to being like, making it about me or cutting me down? Mhm. Um, and so I just wanted to share that because I think, you know, that we as women come up against these moments where again, you know, we've maybe got an internalized idea about what women should do or how they [00:10:30] should behave or how they should charge for their work. And we turn around and we, you know, put that on each other as opposed to, you know, stepping back and being like, oh, like this is creating like some sort of friction inside of me like this. I've got an internalized idea, but that doesn't have anything to do with her. That's my own, basically.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That is a it's a tough thing to think about. And it's I mean, it's not your only story, right? Like you, you've said on [00:11:00] the other side of things, the only people who've ever stiffed you on an invoice have been women. Like is that, has that actually been a pattern? What how did you react the first time you noticed it versus like, you've actually seen this play out over your career? I mean, part of it is that you work more with women than men. So it could be, you know, it could be a game of statistics here. But I want to I want to hear how that how how did you notice that that actually was a pattern? [00:11:30]
Madeline Reeves: Yeah. It's interesting. And, and, you know, I wish I could say it's just because I work with more women, but that's not really the case anymore. Really? Okay. And, and, you know, there's my big, like, socio cultural Anthropologist brain. That's like. I also recognize we live inside of paradigms and systems that create scarcity for women. Women are underfunded. Women are less likely to get paid what they're worth. And so as a result, you know, we have this kind of contracted environment sometimes about resources and also just straight facts. [00:12:00] The only people who have not paid invoices or been chronically late or just straight up ignored have been women. It's happened, you know, 3 or 4 times in my business. You know, it's the biggest ones are like north of 30 grand, you know? And so those ones really sting.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my God.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Ouch ouch ouch ouch.
Madeline Reeves: You know, and not only that, it's like, you know, you know this. I'm a, I'm a founder led organization. If 30, 30 grand comes out of my cash flow, that's not coming out of my paying my team. That's coming out of paying me. I'm [00:12:30] a single mom that comes out of paying for my kids college.
Nancy McClelland: I'm just about to say that's my.
Madeline Reeves: My bills, you know, my retirement, all those things. Like that's where that money comes from is straight out of my pocket. As the founder and leader of my organization. And yeah, one was a one was a client that was, you know, just across her way across her skis. Same thing we had, we had delivered, you know, north of $200,000 worth of work for her, but she was on an installment plan and she bounced on the last three invoices. And you try all the things, right? You send [00:13:00] it to collections, you do demand letters, all that stuff. Um, another was a coaching client whose business I'd helped navigate a really bumpy time. She was struggling financially, but she ultimately got acquired. But she bounced on her invoice. And, you know, then one more recently for a client that had some, like, over scope work that she'd signed off on in emails. And so you just, you learn every single time you know about, okay, this is what I would do differently. Um, but yeah, it is a pattern that that has, has persisted, you know, throughout my business and it, and it [00:13:30] sucks. It sucks because it makes me a little bit more wary at times. It makes me have to have a lot more firmer policies in terms of like getting, getting people to pay things up front.
Nancy McClelland: Does it actually make you wary of working with women? I mean, there's there's danger, obviously, in extrapolating from these individual experiences into women are terrible to other women. Yeah, I know that that's not what you're trying to say. And you've said you've had way more positive experiences than negative. Um, we've talked about the fact we live in a culture with [00:14:00] plenty of stereotypes about women being competitive or jealous or, or whatever. Um, and yet this clearly has taught you something about, about the philosophy of women working with women. I mean, this, these observations are a fantastic doorway into this conversation.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: You're not saying women are statistically more likely to stiff vendors, but you are saying.
Madeline Reeves: I'm I'm saying that I have gotten [00:14:30] increasingly cautious about working with early stage organizations.
Nancy McClelland: All right.
Madeline Reeves: Because I would say the other thing that, you know, that I would put a pattern on to those clients in particular where they were founder led, they were early stage, and they were a little bit unpredictable in terms of where their cash flow and funding was coming from. And so, you know, and this is hard for me because founder led like early stage growth, growth.
Nancy McClelland: That's your jam girl.
Madeline Reeves: Like I love that shit.
Madeline Reeves: Like I live for that. [00:15:00] And I've had to ask a lot clearer questions in terms of their funding, you know, because if, if the funding strategy is, you know, basically I'm the founder and I'm paying for it and I don't have a really clear revenue model, I am way, way less likely to say yes to that project now, um, or to put some very firm stipulations in terms of how we're paid along the way. Um, because yeah, you just, you go through a couple of these and you're like, yeah, I can't, I can't stomach another like 10 to 30 K, you [00:15:30] know, just bouncing out of my pocket. Um, and I also think as well, the other thing that makes me want to do is have more conversations like this, where we're really candid with each other and say, you know, I like and maybe it's a values thing, but it's like, I would never commit to a project that I couldn't pay for. Like I would, I would, I would do the thing. I would say, thank you so much. I would love to work with you. I had to do this recently on something that, that I really, really wanted to say yes to. And I was like, I really [00:16:00] want to say yes to this and I need to come back to you when this is a guaranteed part of my cash flow for the next eight months. And until I have that, I can't, I can't reach for this. And so I think that's the other thing that I look at, you know, is, is, you know, as businesses grow, as businesses scale, like what does it look like to be realistic? And I think the thing that shifted for me as well is I really want to know the people and organizations I'm working for and working with so that I feel like, [00:16:30] you know, there, there is, you know, a degree at which they would feel and understand.
Madeline Reeves: Like, again, this is impacting not just Fearless Foundry as an organization, but this is impacting a direct person. And I think when I look back on the experiences, like that's the part that stings the most for me is like, these were people that I really thought I had this kind of like women supporting women relationship, like literally Nancy. One of them was a brand that was like, you know, I don't name her publicly, [00:17:00] but I'm like female founded wine brand. That was like their whole brand vibe, like their whole mission, everything, their website that we built for them, that they stiffed us on was all about women supporting women, and they stiffed us on 30 K. And not only that, like we referred them to another agency when we stopped working with them. And I found out from that agency owner that they did something very similar. And I had to like apologize to the other agency owner. And so the other thing that I would say here, that's an interesting flag [00:17:30] for me these days is I actually see anybody who's waving that flag. Like, really, this is kind of like an equivalent, I would say is like, if somebody has to go out, run around and being like, I'm not a racist, right? Like to me, I'm like, I think that's kind of inherently about a way that a person behaves. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't feel the need to wave that flag really high.
Nancy McClelland: And so you're seeing the flag waving as being an indication that they're having to make a [00:18:00] point about it, because maybe that's not consistent with their actual actions and their value system.
Madeline Reeves: Exactly.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah, exactly. And so to me, what's been interesting is the brands and the people who really wave a flag very large about being in it for women, supporting women or supporting women founders. I'm inherently more cautious with those people because I, again, like you and I, this is just fundamentally part of who we are and how we move through this space. Like we are just inherent champions for [00:18:30] women in the actions that we take. It's not something I have to plaster on a landing page or put on my LinkedIn bio. It's just who I am and the way that I move. And so for me, I think that's the difference of like, if you have to make it a brand banner, you know why I get a little curious as opposed to if it's just how you move. It's, it's the way you operate.
Nancy McClelland: So while I understand what you're saying, [00:19:00] and, and I'm, I'm sad that that has become an indicator for you that maybe proceed with caution.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Um, I also can't help but wonder, do you think that some of these women supporting women, flag waving, um, clients who, who didn't treat you well, um, do you think that it's possible that they were, they were simply expecting some sort of gift from you, some sort of level of generosity [00:19:30] that they. They maybe that's why they went to a women owned company, right? Like, so they're, they're in theory, they're, they're undervaluing your work because they're expecting rate cutting. They're expecting you to just do something as a favor because remember, currency isn't just money. It's expertise, it's introductions, it's attention and advocacy and time. Oh my gosh, the amount of time that I spend and reputation and all of those things, like [00:20:00] we're bringing that to each other as well. Do you think that there's a higher expectation and you didn't act to them with the level of what they perceived as you weren't being generous enough to them? Because you should know because you're a woman owned business to do you think that that's part of it?
Madeline Reeves: I 100, I 100% think that this is part of the, the currency and, and current that we're operating within as women is that we have a [00:20:30] higher expectation of other women owned entities to give more or to take take something off the top or to, you know, give us a special deal kind of vibe. Like I think that that's something that we really see. I see it in women to women businesses. And it's hard because you and I were having some dialog about this and it's like, yeah, there are ways in which I do go above and beyond for the women in my network. 100%. And, and [00:21:00] I really love that you called into the conversation this notion that it's not always about money. Like there are ways that it intrinsically is rewarding to me to show up in spaces where I know that whatever I'm doing or saying is casting a ripple that will have an impact that is much bigger than like, dollars in my pocket. It creates visibility for women in the industry. I'll give a perfect example of something that I'm really proud of was that eons ago, In 2019, I got really pissed off at the lack [00:21:30] of representation of women in this industry, and some people know me for this. It faded into the background, but at the time, you know, we would go to very big main industry conferences and we'd be lucky if there would be one woman on, on the main stage at a time. And there was a particular.
Nancy McClelland: I remember those days very well as a matter of fact.
Madeline Reeves: And it was the weirdest thing, right? Because here we are sitting in the audience, majority of females in the audience, majority female profession, like 60 something percent of, of the accounting industry is women. And [00:22:00] we're looking up at like the same like 10 to 15 white guys, many of whom I love. But like it was just like the same, same, same. We were like.
Madeline Reeves: Oh diversity is like all these beers on this panel, I don't know. And, and um, and, and it was finally like a comment that was made by an event organizer who was a woman to me saying, well, it's really hard for us to find women of mainstage caliber. And I was like.
Nancy McClelland: I remember this. Oh my God.
Madeline Reeves: I was like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. And so,
Nancy McClelland: I mean obviously that Hits hard personally, [00:22:30] right?
Madeline Reeves: 100%. Yeah, 100%. And so then what I did was I, I went and I built originally, I used to joke that I was like, I was going to build like a yellow pages. That was like all the, the qualified ladies in this industry. And I was going to just throw it at the head of anybody who like made this comment ever again. Um, but my team was like, maybe we should be more tactile and so like.Tactical. And so we, we built a digital directory at the time that was called women talk Money. And then it evolved into we talk money. And it was [00:23:00] the first of its kind place that just had visible profiles for every woman in the industry that was either a known speaker or was on the path to becoming a speaker. And this led to many ripple things. It led, you know, right around the time the directory came out, Misty McGee launched her her Tops program, which was so perfectly timed because a lot of women, just as many. When we launched the directory, women came to me going, um, hey, actually, I really would like to be on that directory, but I don't know. Or I don't have [00:23:30] the skills or training. How did you get comfortable with speaking? I didn't have a speaking program, so I was like meat Misty. Like all of these things rippled out of it. I never made a dime off of it. Like I never made a single dollar. Um, it cost me to run those things. I at peak when, when this was really in its heyday, you know, I was running like weekly coaching sessions. We were having like a monthly training that, that I would facilitate and bring people in for. Um, and, you know, ultimately I was so in love with the impact [00:24:00] it was making. I was totally fine with that until a certain point where I was like, I can't keep sustaining this because I have to go make money to support my family.
Nancy McClelland: And I mean, I feel like that about the podcast, right? Like,
Madeline Reeves: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Because generosity, it is part of solidarity among women. And so we're, I'm gonna put my philosophy into what you're talking about here. I think that the question is whether that generosity is freely given or being extracted [00:24:30] or expected in an unreasonable way, because I will tell you right now, like, I am not a capitalist. I don't want a world where every favor has a price tag. I don't want it to be transactional. Some of the most important things that women have done for me, and that I've done for other women, have happened completely outside an economic exchange, right? Type of thing that you're talking about, where you're building a resource or making room at the table or mentoring, or [00:25:00] there's one thing that happened recently where, um, I was in, in competition, quote unquote, for a seat on, um, an important body that I was very interested in. And in my interview, I was like, look, if you end up having to decide between me and this other person who, um, is a minority female who has so much to give to the industry but doesn't have access to these places as much. I was like, if it comes down to the two of [00:25:30] us, please pick her. She's going to do a better job for you and she is going to inspire more people, right? So like that kind of thing. But the distinction here is that to me anyway, the person giving decides what's a gift. The recipient doesn't get to decide that for her. And I feel like the patterns that you're describing are ones where there was an, an expectation that was being placed upon you, as opposed to you having the opportunity [00:26:00] to say, I am going to do this generous thing 100%.
Madeline Reeves: And I also think it goes back to respecting the agreements we have in place with each other, right? Like, and so for me, with like, the reasons these moments stay with me is like we had a contract, like we had an agreement like we had, you know, we had people on the line. Like, this wasn't just me being like, I, I would love to give you, you know, an hour of my time to give you feedback. This was like I had [00:26:30] teams of like anywhere from 2 to 6 people. I had you in a cash flow forecast spreadsheet that was aligned with my payroll expectations. Like those things are so different. And I also think the thing that disappoints me most about these sort of situations is people not, you know, recognizing the human impact of it. And then also not asking for for, you know, some sort of middle ground. Like, I think I would, I would look back on these situations and respect them so much differently [00:27:00] if the people had come back to me and said, hey, you know, I'm having a hard time with cash flow, can we, you know, extend this payment? Like I always say to people, I'm like, we're firm on our value. We're flexible on our timeframes. Like if you wanted to come back to me and say, hey, something changed, I need to change the scope or something changed. I need a few more months to pay this. Or, hey, you know, any of those things would have been met with such a different because that's respecting that I still created value as opposed to just walking away, [00:27:30] ignoring the email being like, basically.
Nancy McClelland: I have had many a situation in my life where I've been extended that grace, you know, where I was just like, I really want to, as a matter of fact, I'm going to call out Misty on this one. Like I really wanted to do the theater public speaking program. And I was just like, this is not an awesome time because my husband had just lost his contract. Um, but I really, but I had gotten a really big gig and I wanted to prepare for it well, and [00:28:00] they were like, we'll put you on a payment plan with no interest for as long. Like you tell us how many months. And they didn't charge me any interest or anything like that. And we're extremely generous with the time that they spent with me during that program, knowing that I had this big speaking gig coming up. And so I'm not going to say like, you will always get that when you work with a woman. But but asking for that is much better than what I suspect may have happened in your situations. And I'm, I don't know, I'm [00:28:30] a big fan of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Um, so I'm just going to say maybe what happened is that they were surprised and disappointed because it felt more transactional than they wanted it to and let it build resentment instead of saying the words out loud.
Nancy McClelland: I am in a situation right now where I'm negotiating with somebody who is a close friend to help me with a project, and I was very surprised at how high the pricing was. And we're having a meeting later on today [00:29:00] to talk about it. And I'm like internalizing everything we're saying here. And I just want to I just want to be like, okay, let's say the words out loud because I don't want to say yes to this and then be resentful to you down the line. Now, if I were resentful to someone down the line and I had signed a contract, I still would pay it. Right? I want to make that clear. Yeah. I'm not excusing their behavior, but I do wonder if we're not talking about it out loud, if we're not asking for grace or middle ground, or meet me somewhere that I can afford [00:29:30] or my situation has changed, or I should have said this in the beginning, but honestly, I feel really weird that you're charging me this much because X, Y, z. Then the conversation is happening out loud. And when that happens, right, it changes. The conversation changes. When you use all your words.
Madeline Reeves: It in 100% changes. And I think this is the biggest thing that I, I hope that, you know, listeners take away from, I mean, I'm sure there's going to be more illuminations along the [00:30:00] way. We always have so many things.
Nancy McClelland: That.
Madeline Reeves: We're like, actually, this, but, but one of the biggest things is the difference of going towards dialog versus going silent. So I had an interaction just this week with somebody right along these lines. And he's somebody that I adore. And it was it was this exact kind of moment that you're describing that you're about to have to go and do. It was a kind of a meet in the middle moment. We'd put an agreement forward. He came back and was like, my threshold to do that needs to be this much. We were like, oh, that's way more than we budgeted. And, [00:30:30] you know, he, he, you know, it was and, and a lot of these things, to be clear, I have a finance team. They're handled by my finance team. But I saw the interaction going on and the primary relationship is with me. And you know, he texted me at, you know, the next day and was like, hey, can you talk? And I, you know, had that moment where my chest locked up and I was like, oh my gosh, like he's disappointed. Is he mad at me? And then I was like, this is a person I've had a relationship with for more than five years. I respect the hell out of them. I'm gonna give him a call.
Madeline Reeves: I'm going to call him right now. [00:31:00] And did it solve everything immediately? No, but we got to have a chance to have a dialog. And the irony or the thing that was so interesting to me was the first thing he did was apologize. He was like, I'm so sorry if I wasn't clear enough in the beginning. I, you know, I feel bad that we got this far into the discussion and, and didn't have, you know, a ground that we were meeting at where we felt like we were in the same ballpark. I don't want to leave you hanging. And so for me, it's like one [00:31:30] of those moments that like completely shifts your brain. And I'm like, I could have sat there stewing for days, being dreading the conversation, worrying that he was mad at me. All of these things, all of these stories. Or I could have had the dialog. And in the end I said, look, I want to meet you there. I'm not the kind of person who's going to put out a contract I can't afford. Give me a what is your hard like deadline in terms of when you'd have to make this decision? Can you give me a couple more weeks to figure it out? And and we met in the middle, you know. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Now, [00:32:00] do you think those conversations are intrinsically harder for women because of, uh, because of anything? I don't know, because of psychology, because of expectations because of societal norms. Like, do you think that women are having trouble saying the things out loud to each other, like you and this gentleman were able to 100%.
Madeline Reeves: Why?
Nancy McClelland: What's going on there, Maddie?
Madeline Reeves: I think that women are conditioned, particularly when it comes to dialogs around money, [00:32:30] to immediately retract, to immediately feel shame, to immediately, uh, undercut ourselves, to, uh, immediately back away from the negotiation. Like I have this policy and procedure when we hire people on my team. I instituted it a couple years ago where I mandate as part of the process that you have to negotiate. I don't care what you negotiate. I don't care.
Nancy McClelland: What negotiated.
Madeline Reeves: At all. But you have.
Nancy McClelland: To teach the negotiation skills.
Madeline Reeves: 100%.
Nancy McClelland: Which are [00:33:00] mostly communication skills.
Madeline Reeves: Exactly. And my rule is everything is a negotiation. Every interaction is a negotiation. And I know that I am inherently better at this because I have worked in sales for almost my entire career, and I've.
Nancy McClelland: Done business.
Madeline Reeves: Development, and I've sat in rooms where people make ridiculous deals for hundreds of millions of dollars. So those kinds of conversations don't have the same fear factor for me. And I talk about money a lot in public ways. And I will tell you, Nancy, it still gets me shit. It gets me shit [00:33:30] from my own family. I had I had a moment a couple of years ago with my dad, who I love, who I think is a pretty progressive man, where he said to me, he said, you know, I just don't understand why you're always talking about, you know, how much money you make or how much this thing costs or, or you know what you're doing with money. I think that it's just really garish and kind of gross. And I said to him, I was like, would you would you say that to me if I was a guy? Um, because I was like, the inherent reason why I am loud about these things [00:34:00] is because I have a legacy of women I work for and with that have been told this exact thing their entire lives And unless they have other people modeling a comfortable conversation and a dialog like this, they're not going to feel like they have the permission to open the door and have these kind of conversations with each other. And so it's really important. It's also important to me as a mom, I want my kids to not think that money falls from the sky. I want them to know how it works and how deals work and how [00:34:30] a mortgage works, and what a credit card actually is, and all these things that I was not taught growing up. Um, but I 100% think it's harder for women because I think that there are these pre supposed notions and a lack of modeling for us as to how to have these conversations. And so it's really important for us to dialog about it and to create spaces where women can practice these conversations.
Nancy McClelland: I can't even begin to tell you like how many feels I have right now because I, I agree, [00:35:00] disagree like at the same time. And I, that is something that I talk about a lot on the podcast, right? Is that the good and the bad don't cancel each other out. You can have competing feelings about the same thing at the same time. This is all. Everybody knows how much I love dialectical behavioral therapy. And this is happening right now because I have some notes here to talk with my friend later today about our situation. This is one of my favorite books. It's called How to Be Perfect. But as you can see, the tea from perfect has fallen onto the next line. [00:35:30] And this was written by Michael Schur, who is the creator of my favorite TV show, which is The Good Place. And it's all about the philosophy, like from ancient times through to Jungian philosophy and social contracts in today's world. Um, and in it, he talks a lot about what we owe to each other. And so when you say, when you talk about this, I'm like, yeah, you know what? It feels gross to me too. But generosity is [00:36:00] a core value is part of why it feels gross. And so it's feeling gross. Not because of a societal expectation. Because I'll be honest with you, it's gross when men talk about money too. And so what that makes me do is not work with people who make me feel like it's gross. Like the money thing is gross, but that means I'm completely cutting men out of it. I'm probably not even going to go to a man to ask for particular services. I'm going [00:36:30] to go to a woman because it is less likely that they will make me feel like it's gross. Does that? Is that like both things at the same time or what?
Madeline Reeves: It's it's, it's both things at the same time. And it's also challenging, right? Because the one thing that is inherently hard about that is that I've seen in my own business is sometimes we limit our abilities to reach new levels. And, and I'll give you a perfect.
Nancy McClelland: I know, and I know that that is true. Like you're talking about me right now. I know it, I feel it.
Madeline Reeves: Because [00:37:00] I'll give you an example that I think is really important, that limited my businesses growth for a while and fundamentally is something I've had to had to work with and throw out. A lot of people know this stat, but, but but less than 2% of female founders were ever gross more than $1 million in annual revenue. And it's a stat that's been touted so much in the women in business community. And as a result of that, if you think about that from a from a strategic perspective, that means [00:37:30] there is a very finite amount of women that have done certain things in business. So I'll give you examples that I faced. Um, being able to be a, a, a, a, you know, financial advisor to a company that has scaled in the way that I have passed, you know, $1 million, um, attorneys that have done business deals of certain sizes, um, there is a limited number of attorneys that have worked with companies of a certain scale because again, okay, if less than 2% [00:38:00] of us have ever done this, how many of us are attorneys and the number gets smaller and smaller.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, totally.
Madeline Reeves: Early. Early on in my business, I, I, I very much, I only worked with women when it came to service providers. I was, I was all, all women all the time. And I found that in certain categories because those businesses that I was getting services from had not actually scaled to the degree that I had, they weren't able to actually deliver what I needed as a company. And so [00:38:30] it was really interesting. But it wasn't until these were two moves. My attorney and then also my accountant is a guy, both of them, those two people now, I love women. There are a bunch of amazing women in accounting. This just happened to be somebody that was very niche to the category that I am in.
Nancy McClelland: Okay.
Madeline Reeves: But I bring this up because sometimes if we're, you know, in a pool where everybody is only played to this level, our ability to is only to that level as well. And [00:39:00] I learned this from a girlfriend of mine who is incredibly successful. She is kind of a one of one she, we met in a, in a community group and she is the single highest grossing chiropractor in all of America. And I asked her, I said, you know, that's amazing, right? Like she has like six locations in her business and she's just done like crazy cool shit to like her story is so amazing. She like leveraged cattle to do her first practice and then now has like used, used SB, she's [00:39:30] used SBA loans to like buy buildings. And then she leverages the mortgages on the buildings and the rent. Like she just is, is a, is a bit of a wizard. And somebody I've really looked up to in terms of like the, how do you play the business game in a really big way? And I was like, you know, at least what have you done differently? And she's like, I joined masterminds that were all men. And I was like, whoa.
Nancy McClelland: And.
Madeline Reeves: And, and for me, again, here I am, you know, in my ladies only circle, my ladies only space is a couple of years ago, I was like, yeah. [00:40:00]
Madeline Reeves: Like, why? Why? Like, I'm like, that sounds terrible. Like, I would hate that.
Madeline Reeves: But she was like, they are connected to resources, ideas, and strategies that have not been done by a woman. There's never been a woman who's done this before. And so unless I went out and asked them and she was like, you know, some of them fucking suck. But many of them were like, let me show you how this works. And so now, because she's done it and of course, she's amazing, she turned around and created a mastermind program for chiropractors to teach these skills. [00:40:30] And many.
Nancy McClelland: Of them.
Madeline Reeves: Are women.
Nancy McClelland: See, there's the that goes back to the thing I was talking about before, where you you're, you're the giver is the person who decides where they get to be generous. Yes. That's that's on the giver. Yes. And, and I, so I love the fact that she didn't just take this and then build an empire for herself. She's now teaching other people how to do it because, you know, I, I keep talking about generosity as a core value for me. [00:41:00] My goal is not to make all the money. My goal is to make what I consider to be enough to live the lifestyle that I want to live, and anything beyond that allows me to increase generosity. And in her case, she's her goal. I want to make as much money as possible. I want to be the highest grossing, you know, chiropractor in America or what, whatever her her goal was. But now she's taking that and saying, and, and I want to now use this to, to build something [00:41:30] for other women.
Madeline Reeves: And, and I think too, I think that there are these rare opportunities. That reminds me of kind of your example you were giving with like, like that opportunity where you were like, you know, if it comes down to us, we have these rare moments where we can reach out and up and into spaces and rooms and, and like, bring it back down. Yeah. You know, and, and for me, like, that's the, the money thing is that like the money thing is, you know, not everybody has to have the goal of making all the money. But if that's [00:42:00] knowledge you don't have, you know, let's ensure that it's right here so that if that's something you want to do or you want to know about, you know, somebody. And so that's where I, I spend a lot of my time from a generosity perspective these days is like, if somebody, if I have insider experience or information that somebody else in my community doesn't have, I'm like, here, let me sit down and show this to you because I think that that is so important. And again, there's often these moments where [00:42:30] we as women, you know, feel like we're alone and we, we don't know where to reach and we don't know where to turn to. And so that to me is like the most important thing.
Nancy McClelland: So this is like hugely uncomfortable to me already because we're talking about basically turning to men to learn, um, about some other skills that like, I'm not even sure I want in the first place. Right? So I'm already wildly uncomfortable about this, but I also super respect where [00:43:00] you are with this. And I'm like, oh my God, maybe I need to talk to Maddie. Like you were just saying. One of the ways that you turn this around is, is to be free with your knowledge and, and share that with those of us who don't have it. But I want to turn it on its head as if it hasn't already been uncomfortable enough. And look at it from the other side of things, because this whole conversation between us started when you posted about predatory coaching. [00:43:30] You had a post on LinkedIn, um, which I will link to in the, um, in the show notes along with all of this good stuff. Our listeners know I always put all the good stuff in the show notes. Um, predatory coaching is the other side of this. It is a, like a specific, sharper version of this same pattern, but from people who are taking advantage of us, right? So talk about that post and the motivation [00:44:00] for it and predatory coaching and why it works and and how it fits into this wider conversation.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah. And I will just caveat by saying like, you know, in my education and my brain background, like I'm a, I'm a social cultural anthropologist by training and an area where I'm like, if you want to like, just ever, if you see me at a conference or whatever, and you want to just like gab for hours that I get like really fascinated in is like cults and like cultures of influence and [00:44:30] MLMs, like things like that. I'm like, really? Oh yeah. I'm like, I.
Nancy McClelland: Know this about you.
Madeline Reeves: You want to talk to me for two hours about the Lularoe documentary? Let's go. Like, I'm like, this is my, this is my vibe. But I also think it is very particular and fascinating area of study because I think it is uniquely Geared towards women and has this way of taking what I believe is like an untapped energy or an unmet desire that often exists in women to be, [00:45:00] um, to be motivated and to be a part of community to, uh, to see their, their skills reflected, like in a way that, that is recognized and worth. And I, and I think about things even as simple as like how many, how many nonprofit boards, how many toes out there are just like fueled by the unpaid labor of women. And so there's.
Nancy McClelland: This, oh my gosh, absolutely.
Madeline Reeves: This unharnessed potential in women that can often get swept up in these subcultures. And, and some of the ones that [00:45:30] I think are most prominent right now are, are multi-level marketing programs and coaching programs. And they, I think if you like, drew a through line in terms of some of the language and the practices and things like that, and the way people sell these things on social media, there's there's a lot of intersections here.
Nancy McClelland: Um, well, I mean, I'm, I'm going to argue that it's this messaging that actually is generally positive. And I want to dive into, you know, like sisterhood, empowerment, abundance, investing in yourself, [00:46:00] you got this.
Madeline Reeves: Be a, be a part of something, you know? Yes. You know, you know, all these things. And, and what is so interesting and increasingly been in my field is the amount of coaching programs that predate on women and the idea of becoming, you know, oftentimes like $1 million business and, or like I, I'm in a particular algorithm, but it's the language was always like seven figures or, you know, talking about, you know, my first seven figures, blah, [00:46:30] blah, and the amount of programs that have precipitated that are just coaches on coaches, on coaches and, and schemes, like very much schemes. And so, so that post that I posted on LinkedIn came out of a girlfriend reaching out to me, and she was not the first to do this. And she was like, hey, I want you to gut check something for me. I am thinking about being a part of this mastermind program, this coaching program. And, you know, I had the, I had the intake call and, [00:47:00] you know, it's $25,000 just to be specific about the money. And, you know, you have.
Nancy McClelland: To I already want to throw up. I just want, if there's anybody else that is listening and just roll down the window in your car and throw up right now, that's fine with me. Because that, I mean, I got, I didn't have a predatory coaching situation. I had a situation where I went to someone and I spent $6,000, half of which was completely useless, because she promised she was going to be able to help me with something that [00:47:30] it turned out she was unable to help me with. And this is a very well-known person who was on the cover of a very well respected magazine. And I've never worked with a coach since, because, as I've mentioned on the podcast before, like I was really stung by that. Like if this concept, if you really believe in yourself, you'll spend this money. If you're serious about your business, you'd invest. If you had an abundance mindset, you wouldn't worry about get.
Madeline Reeves: To where I've got like the whole thing. And she, she was, you know, this friend of mine [00:48:00] was at a particular low point, low point in her life. She definitely didn't have that kind of cash. And, and this is like red flag for anybody listening. And when she, you know, communicated that she was interested but but said, you know, it wasn't accessible for her, they immediately pointed her towards this, uh, company, this fintech company that did financing for. So we're talking about like.
Nancy McClelland: A, oh, all right.
Madeline Reeves: Klarna.
Nancy McClelland: Actually gross. Right?
Madeline Reeves: Or like a [00:48:30] layaway lay a program for coaching where and of course, they're making interest off of you. So it was like, oh, yeah, we'll give you a payment plan, you know, use this company and, and sensibly like, and I've heard other stories where it's like, we'll just put it on the credit card or like, just do x, y, z. Um.
Nancy McClelland: Well, you know, it takes money to make money. It takes money to make money. It takes money to make money. This conversation that we're having is again, two things at the same time, because it does. You were just saying it takes money to make money. And yet [00:49:00] how do you how do you tell when something is predatory? Maddie.
Madeline Reeves: Oh, so first things first would be if anybody is trying to inherently push you past, what is your known comfort level, whether that's like a financial limitation or like, you know, just an energetic limitation, like, and so a predatory practice that coaches have have taken is like, if, if I was to say like, oh, you know, that's, that's not within my budget. Like, [00:49:30] you know, and somebody was like, well, you know, that's, that's just a mindset limitation. Like Nancy, if you could only just like, really believe and like, you know, let's sit down and come up with five people you could pitch today, you know, then you could get to, to that goal. And, and, you know, that's just a limiting belief that you have, right? Like your bank account is not a limiting belief. Like if you don't have $25,000.
Nancy McClelland: It's actually a limit.
Madeline Reeves: It's a limit. And so, so it's a boundaries thing. And like anytime somebody is trying to push you back, push back against [00:50:00] a boundary, and that boundary could be just like, I don't feel comfortable with this. And, and, and so that was the interesting thing with this girlfriend. Like she came to me for external validation. She was like, I just feel a little funny about it. And I was like, absolutely don't run, run away from these people. I was like, I do not know. And, and I'm somebody who does do coaching work. I do it at a very limited capacity. But I'm like.
Nancy McClelland: This is where I actually want to bring you back to the first story that you opened with tell me. And I have my own thoughts about this, but I want to hear in your words, how is this [00:50:30] different than when you gave the re scoped contract to the woman who asked if it was a pain in the ass, you know, premium that you were putting on it, right? You were telling her this is how much it's going to cost. It was clearly, it turns out well, actually, it wasn't initially, clearly, because she didn't say anything about it. That's probably the first point there, but it was beyond what she was comfortable paying. Or it might have been actually limiting in terms of her own bank account. How is this different than that? Because I know they're different, [00:51:00] but I want to hear it in your words.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah. So so the difference is the, the, the willingness to dialog. I never wrote back to her and said, well, you know, if only you could, you know, do well, we'll sell this many programs and can guarantee. And so therefore, like it's, it's a drop in the bucket. You should just pay. No, like my response was like, clearly it sounds like we're playing in different ballparks, you know, let me know if there's a different subset of services that you'd like for us to do that is in a more financially attainable bracket. [00:51:30] I might have.
Nancy McClelland: The negotiation that you were talking about.
Madeline Reeves: Exactly. And I'm also the first one I'm willing to say, and I try to ask these questions all the time when I'm scoping with people. And this is like, put this one in your backpack. Just say, what's the ballpark we're playing in? What's the ballpark? We're playing ballpark. We're playing in. And, and, and I often also describe to clients, I'm like, you know, typically our minimum monthly retainer is 5000 a month. And obviously that's a more full service experience. But we don't work with clients who are not at that level unless it's just in a coaching capacity. Is that ballpark you're playing in? Because if [00:52:00] not, that's okay. But I'm going to refer you to somebody else, you know? And so I think that's the thing is there's in those kind of conversations, I'm not ever coming back to somebody and saying, well, here's why it's worth it. Here's why you need to go, you know, pay us X. Um, you know, and here's a Klarna payment or whatever, you know, put it on a credit card. It's, oh, okay, we're in different ballparks, you know, but we're carrying.
Nancy McClelland: So much shame when we do quote [00:52:30] unquote, fall for these predatory coaches. And if a woman repeatedly experiences this kind of exploitation within these spaces that are supposedly supportive. It affects us all. Like this is a collective cost. We become less willing to collaborate, less willing to share information, less willing to take a chance, less willing to mentor or refer. I mean like so exploitation like this. It doesn't. It's not just hurting the [00:53:00] person who's being exploited, although that's bad enough, it actually poisons this concept of this generosity and this, um, you know, this reciprocity without scorekeeping that I keep talking about, that is a philosophical value of mine. It, it can destroy that in society. And then we end up with a lot of silence around it. To go back to your point earlier that women aren't saying the things out loud, but they're definitely not talking about being stiffed [00:53:30] or undervalued or being taken advantage of. And, and that's part of it is that we're carrying shame when we like I should have known. Or what do we do with that? What do we do with that shame when when we end up in this situation?
Madeline Reeves: Well, I mean, this is exactly what I wanted to blow the doors off this conversation a little bit so that we can create a space, even if it's private. You know, we're women. You and I get a lot of DMs from women and I'm like, message us. Like, you don't have to be [00:54:00] in this experience. And in fact, the more that we can share the lessons we've learned, the more we can say, you know, I, I'm not going to be privy to something like this again. And I'm going to also make sure that other women aren't privy and, and, and I'll just raise my hand and say, I'm not alone in these experiences. Like, you're not alone in these experiences. I've been through this myself. Like I have similar to what you shared, you know, I joined a coaching program. It was like three ish years ago. It was, you know, a woman who claimed to like kind of [00:54:30] really have the, the agency model down. And I even knew a woman who referred the program to, to me. And it was all about kind of enhancing the profitability of your model. And, you know, I, I got in there and there were here were the three flags. One and I say this so people can look for them. One, it was claimed to be a live coaching program with this individual. Turns out it was like a coach under coach model. So she had trained up other people. Okay. The only content I got from this person was like prerecorded [00:55:00] videos. And the only people I was ever coordinating with were like her coaches. So she was nowhere to be seen. Second, when I dug into the materials, her model for profitability was offshoring and outsourcing work as much as possible to the lowest cost person available. So trying to figure out like, how can you hire somebody abroad?
Nancy McClelland: And, you know, this bothers me a lot because a lot a hyper local firm and we're actually opposed to offshoring [00:55:30] at all. Like, it's hard enough for me that not all of my people live in this neighborhood, right? Yes.
Madeline Reeves: And so I'm like, tough. This entire model that she was perpetuating was basically like, find somebody who will take $5 an hour or $10 an hour. And that's how you maximize your profitability.
Nancy McClelland: And now you're taking advantage of them.
Madeline Reeves: Exactly. And so I was like, that's predatory and I don't want to be a part of it. And also, you know, this was something where it was like, I think the program was, was it [00:56:00] was a six month program. I think it was 2000 or 2500 a month. And halfway through, I was like, yeah, absolutely not. This is not what I was told. I don't want to be a part of this. Uh, and I, I, so I, so I can't, you know, I, I canceled, went to cancel my membership. They tried to hold me to it because they were like, well, you sign the contract. And I was like, you said that it was this and it was not this. And I'm not going to be a part.
Nancy McClelland: Of this to contrast with what you were talking about beforehand, you would say, this is not stiffing them on [00:56:30] a contract. Like, no, it was when you were when your bills were unpaid, when people had signed contracts. You're saying you're not delivering what you said you were going to deliver.
Madeline Reeves: You're not delivering what you said you were going to deliver. And I already paid you $6,000 to get, not what I signed up for. And so I didn't, you know, I could have disputed with my credit card company or something, but I'm like, I'm not going to go back for what I've got, but I'm, I'm not going to continue. So I'm also not going to receive the remaining services as well. Um, but that was kind of the last [00:57:00] program like that that I've done because I'm like, I just don't, I just don't buy into this anymore. Um, and I would rather put that energy and attention like towards relationships that I have that go back to this more like gracious sharing, like I'm a part of like a female agency owner's slack channel that's like free. And we all just share with each other because we're in it together. Or I think about like the number of like WhatsApp groups and communities that we're a part of. And I'm like, I would rather be a part of those environments [00:57:30] and, have energy and attention there. Um, but I just share that.
Nancy McClelland: And you don't see that as taking advantage of each other. You see that as being a part of building a culture of generosity. Yes. Among women, without building a culture of entitlement to women's generosity, those groups you're saying are 100%.
Madeline Reeves: And, and what I also see in that community is a really, um, a healthy amount of women able to say, this is what I can give [00:58:00] and this is what I can't, you know, and so like, for me, it's like, you know, there's, there's a distinguishment I always make with people, which is like, if I, if I give and say, I'm like, yes, I'll give you, you know, 30 minutes, an hour of my time. Absolutely. You want to come and get that repeatedly. That's called coaching. I will, I will work with you and here's my rates. And if that and I'm and if I'm not a fed or if it's too much, here's five other coaches I know who are great fit, who are validated, who are part of my partner network. Um, but it's, it's just this dynamic where, you know, I, I [00:58:30] think we also have to ask ourselves, like, what is the opportunity cost that I might take from somebody as opposed to what are they willing to give? You know, so.
Nancy McClelland: That that one is really hard for me because I struggle with it because I just, I love to give, give, give, I see a problem and I want to jump in and solve it, whether it's with a client. Um, even if the client can't afford it, I'm like, this is what you need. So I am going to help. Um, and with my colleagues, right? Like they want guidance, [00:59:00] I'm going to give them guidance. Somebody's going through a challenge. I want to help. That's me giving freely when I choose to give. I would love to see what you're talking about, which is the awareness of what the other person is giving. And, um, I, I feel like you're very good at setting that boundary and saying this is how much I'm giving. Anything beyond that is paid where I've got this concept of [00:59:30] reciprocity, where the person's going to recognize that the person has this, this cost to this opportunity, cost to the work that they're doing. Um, and so I, I don't know how to solve that problem. Yeah. Uh, because I don't think that these people are necessarily exploiting another woman.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: But they are happily accepting the free support.
Madeline Reeves: Support?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. What can they do? What can those women do [01:00:00] when they're being supported to, to support in return and recognize that they're being given something for free.
Madeline Reeves: So where my brain goes with this one is immediately to the difference. I feel when somebody recognizes like, this is what you do for a living, or like, this is where you do make your money. And, and so I'll give you a perfect example is like, if somebody came to me and like, hey, can I get, you know, your feedback on my brand, you know, or on, on a marketing [01:00:30] campaign I'm working on or something like that. The difference I feel when somebody goes, I know this is like, like, like the equivalent would be like, Nancy, can you look at my, this text thing I'm dealing with? Right? And, and my, and.
Nancy McClelland: In those situations, I feel like people are ready to pay me. It's, it's in the thousands of other things that I do. Yeah.
Madeline Reeves: And, and how different do you feel if I was to say, I know this is what you do for a living is is this okay? Like, I have a friend who asks me [01:01:00] for feedback all the time. Um, and is a former coaching client, one of the best people I've ever worked with from a business boundaries perspective. And the thing that I appreciate so much is every single time he DM'd me with these kind of questions, the next thing he says is, is does this fall in the bounds of coaching? Is this okay? Do you have capacity for this? Because it's a recognition that this is the thing that I do for a living. Are you willing and able? Do you want to give this to me or am I being disrespectful? [01:01:30] And do you need to charge me for this? And just that little frame of saying like, I respect this is what you do for a living? That is an acknowledgment that this this could be something where I have perceived that there's like a value or opportunity cost, and then I get to make the decision. I'll give you another example that's totally different, but really fundamental to change my thinking about something is when I make introductions. Um, I had another colleague in the industry who would ask [01:02:00] people before making those introduction interesting. You know, you never decide who's like, who's like, oh gosh, like, I don't have time for this. Right? And so I had a colleague who would email who would say, I have somebody I want to introduce you to, but let me check with them first and would then email me and be like, hey, I'm thinking about introducing you to so and so. This is why it came up. Is it okay for me to make that introduction? And again, that allows me to opt [01:02:30] in and say, yeah, I've got capacity for that. I'd love to talk to them or no, that's not really what I'm doing these days, or it doesn't feel like a fit for me.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh. I feel like most of my most of my inbox many days is people saying, I have somebody I want to introduce you to. They're CC'd here and now I have an obligation. Um, and, and people don't recognize that that networking and helping people get on stages and, um, you know, all [01:03:00] of the work that I do with ask a CPA and she counts and conferences and serving on advisory boards. Those are things that people want to pick my brain about all the time. And I want to be generous and I want to be kind. And I'm also like, okay, where, where are my hours to do the rest of my work, my, my paying work? So I feel like this is a, I don't know if if I could change one norm in how people do business with each other, not just women doing business with each other. I feel [01:03:30] like it would be an awareness on the side of the asker to not put that burden on the person who wants to be generous, but also has a business and a life to run. I don't know what about you? If you could change one norm in how women do business with each other, what would.
Madeline Reeves: I really? I really love that norm. And I also would add to it, recognizing that even if somebody has been able or has capacity or is doing those things in the past, [01:04:00] recognizing that we change, right, we change in what we're available to give. And so, you know, I think that, you know, and that doesn't mean I'm suddenly a less generous person. It could just be I'm in a different season, right? I went through a divorce that made it so that I had to really contract my focus to be more present for my kids to move multiple times in a couple years to be able to stabilize my company that was trying to be taken by my ex, like, like there were a lot of things. And so in [01:04:30] that season, I had to say like, no to a lot more things. And, and that doesn't mean I'm a less generous person. It just means that I have things going on that I need to give that energy and attention to. And so therefore, I don't have the capacity to give in the same degree. And I think that's particularly true for women like you. And I both know it's like it came up, you know, with with the thing at the top of the episode in terms of what questions dealing with right now. Yeah, there are all these other factors where we are giving outside of the bounds of our business or like [01:05:00] our work as well. And so there are some seasons where even though I'd like to be as generous as possible, I'm a little more strapped energetically and I just can't. And I think that that's something that we really need to respect. And so that goes back to your idea of like, how can we frame it as an ask and how can we frame it as a, like, you know, set it up so that somebody has the capacity to say no.
Nancy McClelland: Right. Absolutely. These can seem like small interpersonal choices, but collectively they're [01:05:30] actually determining what kind of business culture women create with one another.
Madeline Reeves: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Well, as we wrap up, we would love to ask listeners to please follow our She Counts podcast LinkedIn page and join in on this extremely uncomfortable but enlightening conversation that we all truly believe needs to happen by sharing under the episode The Currency Between Women.
Madeline Reeves: How do you recognize the difference between [01:06:00] generosity and being taken advantage of? Give us an example so we can all learn from each other.
Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote by the author, Adrienne Maree Brown. What we practice at the small scale sets the patterns for the whole system.
Madeline Reeves: Thank you for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, I know it did for me. That's exactly why we're doing this. [01:06:30]
Madeline Reeves: So you feel seen, heard and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmark dot pdf. Links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions, and a bunch of other resources that we talked about in this episode are going to be in the show notes.
Madeline Reeves: And please make sure to subscribe and leave a review and share with another women in accounting who needs to hear this too.
Nancy McClelland: Maddie, thank you so much for being here. You're absolutely amazing. [01:07:00] I'm so grateful to you.
Madeline Reeves: I'm so glad I got to have this conversation with you. Nancy. Thank you.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you. And we'll see everyone in two weeks.