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Nancy McClelland: Hey hey hey. Before we get into today's episode, a quick invitation for anyone headed to Intuit Connect in Las Vegas next week. I will be at two women in accounting gatherings and I would love to see you there. First, on Sunday, October 25th from 1 to 5 p.m., Jean Hardy from Levy is hosting a fun casual gathering at the Aria Pool Cabanas. Come meet some fantastic women in accounting, make new friends and enjoy a [00:00:30] little pre-conference fun. Then on Tuesday, October 27th at 9 a.m., Intuit has invited me to host a special. She Counts Women in Accounting takeover. Brain date. Super group in the Brain Date Lounge. We'll be talking about building careers, running firms, finding support and saying out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. And this is a conversation. So please bring your questions and experiences. I'll [00:01:00] also have copies of my brand new She Counts Resource guide packed with communities, conferences, podcasts, newsletters, and other resources to help women in accounting find their people and support one another. You'll find registration links for both events in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast [00:01:30] for Women in Accounting. I'm your host, Nancy McClelland, and every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Marit Burmood: Because if you ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season four sponsors Bill, Relay and Carbon. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us [00:02:00] to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at she dot show.
Marit Burmood: And remember, you can also go to the earmark.app to earn CPE credit. And please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.
Nancy McClelland: And in case you're wondering who that beautiful voice is over there, this is my good friend Marit Berman. Merritt and I met at the Theater of Public Speaking. [00:02:30] Advanced curtain call retreat, and oh my gosh, we had such an amazing time together. We immediately connected. There was a really, really funny story that I remember where I was on one side of a big bridge, and she was on the other side of the bridge, and we were texting each other, and we realized we were that close to each other. And I was like, stay put, stay put. And I dropped a pin in WhatsApp, and we saw our two little faces coming closer and [00:03:00] closer and closer together. And then I finally got to meet her in person and get a big hug. So she's been a dear friend of mine ever since. She also, I am extremely lucky about this. She also speaks to tax pros at lots of conferences, so I get to hang out with her in real life at awesome places like Natp, tax, Posium and AICPA engage and we have just had such a good time together. And her husband is also an [00:03:30] accountant, which is pretty awesome. And he runs a really cool community called Business Empire, which is for small businesses that need accounting and tax support, but they don't have the bucks yet to be able to outsource that. And so he runs a community to help them figure out how to do all of this stuff. And Merritt helps him out with that. She is the extroverted accountant on Instagram, and he's the extreme accountant on Instagram. [00:04:00] And I would love to welcome you to the show. Welcome to She Counts Merit.
Marit Burmood: Oh thank you. That was the best intro. The only thing you missed is that I don't know if you know it, but I'm very afraid of bridges.
Nancy McClelland: Really?
Marit Burmood: Yes. I was crossing that bridge and you helped keep me calm. I have a thing with bridges. I don't know why. I don't.
Nancy McClelland: Know that.
Marit Burmood: I don't.
Nancy McClelland: Feel.
Marit Burmood: Safe on a bridge. And that was a very long bridge.
Nancy McClelland: It was a really long bridge.
Marit Burmood: It was the longest bridge. So, Nancy, you.
Nancy McClelland: Think it might have been like the [00:04:30] San Mateo Bridge or something like that? It was a it was a long well, I didn't even know. Kept me.
Marit Burmood: Distracted.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it made it that that makes me even happier. It makes me even happier. Well, I'm so glad you're here. And I know we've got a really important topic today, you and I, we had, you know, when we brainstormed what we could talk about together. It was an extremely long list, but we picked this one as number one on the list. Its opportunity cost, which is kind of ironic because, I mean, it's it's [00:05:00] a concept that every single one of us has explained to a client. But as you rightly pointed out, we don't always run that same calculation on our own lives where we're taught to look at the numbers and evaluate the return and consider the alternatives and make an informed decision based on the data. But what happens when the decision isn't inherently numerical, like, you know, an investment or a business expense? When you've got a speaking opportunity [00:05:30] or a potential new client, or a leadership role, or yet another certification, another committee that you got invited to be on, or a board or another conference. Oh my gosh, like the list goes on and on and on. And I know all of the women who are listening are like, aha, aha, aha, like one more thing that we could add to an already full life. How do we calculate the opportunity cost on that? And as our listeners know, we love watching each episode with a [00:06:00] story. And I know that you have had some experiences that made you start asking yourself, is accepting this opportunity actually worth it or not?
Marit Burmood: Yeah. And I think for me, it's really obviously the opportunities and what is good for you at some point might not be good for you a little bit later down the road. And I kind of learned that the hard way because when I was [00:06:30] trying to expand who I was in the industry, right. So come out of just sitting at my desk doing taxes, accounting, advising for clients all the time and kind of start using my expertise to help other tax professionals. Like you said, we speak at a lot of the same conferences sharing that Knowledge. I mean, I am a CPA, I got my enrolled agent, I have a master's in tax. So I have all this knowledge. And I felt like, how can I use it? How [00:07:00] can I share it beyond my clients? And so I, I started, you know, speaking, taking some writing opportunities. I, there was this tax group I was teaching to, and I really wanted to be on the board of advisors and, you know, because it was only like, you know, the most knowledgeable people in the group were on the board of advisors. And I thought that at the time I wanted that I was still building, you know, my value as being as who I was outside of the desk. Right? [00:07:30]
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Marit Burmood: And I worked really hard. And then just a few years later, I got invited to be on this board of advisors. And this thing that I wanted, had wanted for so long. I knew in my heart I didn't do what we tell our clients to do. I didn't sit down and look at all the obligations that I currently had because they had been stacking up over the years.
Nancy McClelland: Like, yeah, yeah.
Marit Burmood: Weren't gonna invite me to be on it. I was going to do other things. I had a lot going on, and I knew in my heart this might be [00:08:00] not the best move, but I let my emotions kind of determine my response, which was yes. And I quickly found out it was only a couple months in. I realized, okay, what's being important to what is important to me now, which for me, I'm more focused on building like the financial side of the brand, right? Not, oh, do people know who I am? But can I actually make this sustainable for the time that I'm spending and the time that [00:08:30] I'm taking away from my clients? Is it worth it monetarily?
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, don't ever make me do those calculations.
Marit Burmood: And I was.
Nancy McClelland: Like.
Marit Burmood: I was like, I could be taking all this time. I'm doing this for free on this person's board. And I could put it towards, you know, so it was a little too late. So I had to write a letter of resignation. And it really kind of got me thinking about, you know, when your ambition is costing you too much. Like for me, I have children. Time away from my family, time away from my clients, time away from [00:09:00] business empire and all of the other things. And that's really important to start thinking about, I think.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. But on the other hand, you know, you, you can't just take the emotion out of it entirely. There's no way. It's not like with a, I mean, not that you can do that with tax planning or a business investment because there's emotions tied to money as well. But like, you know, the emotional side of these decisions, you know, we status is important. Respect is important. Um, you getting asked to [00:09:30] do something that you've wanted for a really long time, whether that's being up on stage or, you know, participating on a committee or getting a writing gig or, or whatever, the emotional side of that is real. I mean, when we ask why do we keep saying yes? Why does why do we feel compelled to accept these opportunities? That's an emotional answer, right?
Marit Burmood: It is. But I think the [00:10:00] important part, and it's funny because I was thinking about this before we started this episode a couple hours ago. It's the important part is you don't let the emotions drive the decision. You can let it be a part of the decisions. The emotion can sit in the back seat or the passenger seat, but they can't drive it. And I was thinking, Nancy, that of course we have these fears that the opportunity won't come again.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, well, that's a huge one. [00:10:30] I mean, that we talk about that in ask a CPA all the time because, you know, like sometimes we'll say yes to a potential client that we know isn't a good fit because we're like, well, if I say no to this one, you know, when is that next lead gonna come along? Or like you get invited to speak at an event? Well, what if they never ask me again? I mean, that that's super real, right?
Marit Burmood: Right. But to but to throw a wrench. There's also the other [00:11:00] side where you are not going to do something because the emotion and the feeling of, I'm not good enough for it yet. I'm not ready for it yet. I'm not knowledgeable enough. So we've got these two opposite sides of the spectrum where we either take on everything because we're like, oh my gosh, I'm not good enough. It's never going to come again, or we don't take on things or go try for things because we're like, we're just not there yet. I'm just not. Which in this industry, I don't know if I'm the only one, but I constantly [00:11:30] have to fight those feelings of not being.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, you're not the only one.
Marit Burmood: Smart as every other of the tax profession. Like they're all.
Nancy McClelland: You know, you're not the only one. And I mean, it can get.
Marit Burmood: In your head.
Nancy McClelland: Literally not have a podcast. If you were the only one who had those feelings, come on.
Marit Burmood: But. And so there's those two things, right? It's not just, it's not just that fear of not having it. It's also that fear of doing it. So what is the cost? What is our goals? What is our personal mission [00:12:00] that can change? And that's okay. But which we'll talk about, it's like, you really want to get that big picture of what you want it to look like in a while, because you and I know it's once you commit to something, accountants specifically, we're not quitters. We're not going to try and be like, oh, never mind. I did resign from that board though, but I felt terrible. Right? I didn't want to do that. I should have taken more time.
Nancy McClelland: Well, and that is exactly where question was when she was trying to decide whether or not to continue with she [00:12:30] counts. She had to look at everything in her life and go, does this make sense? Like it's. And no, she didn't want to quit. It was super painful. It was really difficult for her. But, you know, she had to set aside the, um, you know, wanting to participate in this project versus can this actually fit into my life? I guess in a sense, she did do that opportunity cost calculation. Um, [00:13:00] and, and set aside the emotional, you know, the, all of the things that you're talking about. What if this opportunity never comes again? Um, the need for validation, the desire to make an impact and leave a legacy, all of those kinds of things. It's, it's really, it's really hard to build a career in an industry where women have historically had to prove their competence and credibility. And we want to say yes to all of those things, um, not [00:13:30] just because of ambition, but because, like you said, like we're, we want to, we want to prove ourselves and we want to show other people that we can be counted on.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. And we don't want to let people down. For me, the, uh, the guy who asked me to be on the board of advisors, a very good friend. He's a mentor. I've looked up to him for many years. I didn't want to have to do that. Right. You don't want to let people down. Sure. Question. Didn't want to let you down, let down the visitors down. But it gets to [00:14:00] a point where you really need to look at your life outside of just the you know, I feel like accountants are so transactional and we forget that everything that we say yes to has a cost, even if it doesn't have an actual monetary value at the moment. And how do we start integrating that into the decisions that we make to just live a full life, whatever that looks like for you? And everybody has a different reason and not everybody's going to even accept it, right? Like my, my reasons for [00:14:30] resigning. He might have been like, he was very kind, but, you know, he could have looked at like, oh, well, but you have to quit caring about what other people think too, and do what's best for you, I think.
Nancy McClelland: And I think if we focus on what we're giving up by choosing it, I mean, I think that's probably where I struggle the most, right? Like I, I say yes to so many things for all of these different reasons, right? Like I want to have the impact and leave the legacy. [00:15:00] I love helping people. I love that people see me as someone who has something to offer, and I want to continue to be there for them. And I want to be thought of as a person that people can, can count on. And, um, you know, I get really energized by all of these projects. I truly love all of it. But what I forget to do is think about, okay, if I say yes to this, what am I [00:15:30] giving up? And the answer might be something really simple, like enough sleep or time with my husband or my hobbies. Like those are real things that we that we should probably put on a, I don't know, put on a spreadsheet and say, what does it cost? What's the expected return? Right. What what are the alternatives? What else could you do with those resources, which is like the that's, that's what we help our clients with.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. You know who probably [00:16:00] is great at that. I just thought about this. Mariette.
Nancy McClelland: Mariette Martinez.
Marit Burmood: Yes. She showed us her calendar once, and it was color coded to nobody's business. And I kind of color coded mine. I wish I was more organized like her, but talk about someone who knows how much time she's spending with family, how much time she's spending on the specific, different things. Like she has it all color coded, and she actually said that she can pull it up and she can, uh, filter it. Say how much time was allocated to family time [00:16:30] this month, which is.
Nancy McClelland: Helpful for.
Marit Burmood: Us parents whose kids are like, you work all the time. I actually did that. She very much inspired me and then I fell off. I got maybe I'll get back to it, but I was able to show my kids that month. I'm like, mom did this much family time. So you cannot say that I'm working all the time.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, are you serious? It is.
Marit Burmood: So hard.
Nancy McClelland: I had that conversation with your children that.
Marit Burmood: Yeah, she inspired me because she found a way to really allocate and take a look at her [00:17:00] daily life and say, hey, this is how much this past month was family and this, how much was this activity? And this, you know, and I think.
Nancy McClelland: That is amazing.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. And with our work, because I have a firm, right, a tax advisory firm, I do tax and accounting for small businesses takes up a good chunk of my time. You know, if I was better, I could allocate it out and say, all right, that's how much. Because when you I think what made me think about this was when you said, you have to look [00:17:30] at what you're giving up in order to say yes to it. But if you don't know, like if you don't have a grasp already on what's happening, then you don't really know what you're giving up. Like we can get so busy in our lives and our calendars are so full. How do we quantify where we're even at to then?
Nancy McClelland: Oh my God.
Marit Burmood: Yes, we're going to have to give up.
Nancy McClelland: That is such a good point. That's oh my gosh, I can't wait to talk to Marriott about this. I just she is one of those people though, in the world where I'm pretty [00:18:00] sure that she was given more hours in a day than the rest of us, but I.
Marit Burmood: Utilized.
Nancy McClelland: She just exactly what it is now. I know, now I know her, let's.
Marit Burmood: Have her on. You should have her on, um, and give us the tips and tricks. Yeah, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Oh for sure. I think that's a that's a great idea. I'm totally gonna do that. That's going to be a future episode. There's one thing that you had on your list of, uh, the different things that something can [00:18:30] cost us that, um, is something that Jennifer Diamond and I have talked about. Uh, diamond was actually on, um, I think by the time this airs, it will have been our most. No, it will be our next episode. Actually, our next episode after this one with you will be live at bridging the Gap. And she was one of our guests. And, um, and I know, you know, diamond from theater of public speaking as well. She brings up the important point of recovery when you say yes to [00:19:00] this, and we're asking, what does it cost us? The, the preparation time travel, the time away from clients and family and the recovery from the things that we have committed to. That's something I don't work into. Like, if I were Mariette and I were, I were color coding and time blocking everything I would do. I would do that. Like I would say, hey, don't forget that when you come home from this event, you are [00:19:30] going to need X amount of time to get through that email inbox. You're going to need X amount of time to catch up on sleep. You're going to need X amount of time to, to do the laundry. And, and then also like your energy has been somewhat depleted and you're going to need to build that back up. And so she is frequently sending me memes about the importance of recovery because she knows I don't, I need her.
Marit Burmood: To send me those too.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I will let her know.
Marit Burmood: Yeah, I actually noticed one [00:20:00] as I've been doing more conferences, I got a little bit smarter this last time when I came home from tax podium, I did my flight so that I would get home at night after the kids went to bed. And I was so happy because it was such a long flight, such a long, just packed, packed, packed few days. And I've learned over the past few years because I think I've got to get back to my kids as soon as possible. They can have the least amount of time away from me [00:20:30] as possible is my thought process, but then I. It is brutal. It is brutal to land there, there to pick you up. And from that second on, because my. I have twins that are eight and then I have a ten year old. So they're not like toddlers, but they're very emotionally needy now, right? They're all girls. They love their mom. They've got a lot of stories. I mean, the twins talk over each other and big sisters mad that the twins are interrupting her.
Nancy McClelland: And it's just like, and you're like, oh my gosh, I just need a few hours. Yeah. And they [00:21:00] need to sleep.
Marit Burmood: And they have an owie and they have all these things and it talk about zero recovery. And I was dying. And this last time I thought, well, I do want to see them, but if I just get home, if I book the later flight, I won't see him till it was the best. It was the best.
Nancy McClelland: I ubered home.
Marit Burmood: Because they were in bed and my husband stayed home. I ubered home, he was there to greet me. He took my bags upstairs like even having that night of recovery made a world of difference. So I [00:21:30] can see that's what I'm saying. I can see what she means.
Nancy McClelland: For sure. Yeah, totally. So I think one of the key ideas that we're wanting to share with listeners, like a take home, is that an opportunity can be good, but still not worth the cost. And conversely, it can have a significant cost and still be absolutely worth it. So we're not just getting rid of all the costly opportunities. We just it's about evaluating. [00:22:00] Right. So a question I have for you is when we're evaluating this, what if the problem isn't any one decision? Because like, this is complicated. This is this is a lot of variables, right? And so what if the problem is that we're only looking at one decision at a time, and we're not looking at the at the whole picture.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. And I think that's what happens. I think that goes back [00:22:30] to that emotional letting the emotion have too much traction in the determination for the decision. I guess I would say, because I think that we do need to look at not only the big picture of how it's going to affect our family, our current practice, you know, everything else. We've already said yes to what's going to be taken away. But we do kind of need to look at an even bigger picture and say, okay, well, how long is this going [00:23:00] to last? Where is it going to take me from point A to point B in the big picture? Where do I want to be? How is it going to help me get there? It's kind of like that investment portfolio, right? Like you're going to look and evaluate individual or individual purchase decisions. You know, this is a good stock. This isn't or this is a good property or whatnot. But you also keep in mind your portfolio and you look at the things, okay, this is a loss. I need to cut it in order, you know, to utilize it against my gain. [00:23:30] And you know, that we play all these kinds of games when it comes to other types of investments. But Nancy, we're talking about investing our time, which is finite with money. If we make a mistake and we make a wrong investment, we there's more money. But with time, really, we don't have it. I've been thinking about that so much lately of just the fact that, you know, I'm 43. I've got a whole other half of my life to live, but I've got a whole half that's gone that I'll never get back. Things [00:24:00] that I wish I could change, that I couldn't. So I want to be really intentional with my time. It is literally more valuable than money, I think.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. You know what? You are making me, you're you're making me remember the conversation that, um, that we had with Justine Lackey, I think in season 1 or 2 about building the business you really want. She said, we pay for everything in life with either time, energy [00:24:30] or money, sometimes more than one of those things. And just now when you were saying, well, there there will be more money. Like, yeah, at first I was like, no, money is finite. You don't have like, you can't just it doesn't grow on trees, as they say, but you can make more. You can't make more time.
Marit Burmood: You can literally lose every dollar in your bank account. And you can rebuild a brand new business and be back up to having $1 million. You can't do that.
Nancy McClelland: I mean.
Marit Burmood: Once [00:25:00] your time's.
Nancy McClelland: Gone, but in theory. Yeah.
Marit Burmood: Well, but you could if you had to, if your feet were to the fire and you lost everything and you had to get out there and you had to go provide and you had to build it back up, I guarantee you would do it, but there's no way to get that time back. You cannot.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my God, that is absolutely amazing. I mean. Yes, sometimes you're making me realize we build a life that we [00:25:30] don't actually want because we're saying yes to one individual investment. We'll call it like, because you were talking about the portfolio, we say yes to this investment and yes to this investment and yes to this investment. Instead of looking at the portfolio, we can actually invest in all of those things and then have a portfolio that we was not the one we intended to build. It's because when you look at the whole thing, it's a life we don't [00:26:00] actually want. I know that you had a you had something like that happen to you, right? Because you had this big picture experience, um, when you were speaking at a big national conference.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of them, I mean, a lot of these conferences fall right, after tax season. And obviously I'm going to say yes to every conference that I get chosen to speak at or ask to speak at. At that point, [00:26:30] I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, this is what I want to do. I am very outgoing. I love to speak. I love to share my knowledge, even though it's scary. It's been stretching me so much as a person. It's been amazing. But especially when you first start out, you know, they're not these aren't paid opportunities. These opportunities are get in front of people and I don't have anything to sell my tax people. I don't, I, I don't, I just don't write like I don't, there's some people that go up and say, oh, buy my book or do this, [00:27:00] I don't, I just am following a passion of mine, which is important. You know, like I'm a mom, I need to follow my passions outside of my family, continue to grow who I am as an individual. Yeah, outside of my business as well. But over time, it started to weigh on me a lot in terms of I would always miss my kids last day of school for like three years in a row. And I loved the last day of school, so I would always pick them up and play. School's Out for the Summer, which [00:27:30] you would be amazed at how many kids these days don't know. School's out for the summer. I'm like, what is wrong? What do you.
Nancy McClelland: Mean?
Marit Burmood: I would blast it? We would play it, we'd go get ice cream and I missed it. And then I missed it the next year, and then I missed it the next year. And so then I got asked to speak at a conference. That was.
Nancy McClelland: What I need.
Marit Burmood: You.
Nancy McClelland: I need you to WhatsApp me on the last day of kids school so that we can sing school's out for the summer together because even though we don't [00:28:00] get our summers off, I want to blast that with. Yeah, well.
Marit Burmood: This year I took them. I picked them up, we blasted. School's out for the summer. We went and got froyo. We went to the park. And I was so grateful because, you know, I had missed out on that. And so like I said, you're, you're everything changes, right? Like what you want in life or what you're looking for. But I think, I don't know, I was getting my, I don't really know, I guess both ways. They were emotional, [00:28:30] right? Like I had this emotional thing at first of, I want to be out there and I want to say yes, and I'm never going to get it back. And then it transformed to I'm missing this time with my kids that I'm never going to get back.
Nancy McClelland: And just maybe we just need Hermione's time turner. Yeah, we can do all of it.
Marit Burmood: Like you feel like you're spread across. But for me also, there was no pay involved in this last conference. That was right during School's Out. And so for me, I started to shift to like, okay, I do want to do this, but if I'm also not going to make any money, I'm actually going [00:29:00] to be taking my time for my family, taking my money from my family, taking away that experience for my family. And so I turned it down. And you know what, Nancy? It hurts to say no. It hurts a.
Nancy McClelland: Lot.
Marit Burmood: To say no. It is hard. That's why I think it's so important to have your bigger picture, your mission, your vision, your like what your version of success is. It's your anchor in those times where you're like, I know I need to say no, but I don't want to. It's the same thing with [00:29:30] the board of advisors, right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it reminds me of the episode we recorded with Brandi Jordan, uh, which was called start with No, which, by the way, was gonna be the original. The original name of the podcast was going to be start with no. And every episode was going to be about this because it's something that that question and I both struggled with so, so, so much. Um, but I think, I think it's the exercise, [00:30:00] this like portfolio versus individual investment exercise, this opportunity cost exercise that, that you keep talking about the first step in that because saying no hurts so badly because it's so hard. We actually have to know what our goals are. Like, what are we trying to build before we can decide whether something is worth the cost or not? Right? I mean, that's step one.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. [00:30:30] And then if we have to give and then when we get to that point where, you know, you have to give up something to say yes to something else. So step one, first, we know what our missions are personal and professional, right? We have to figure out both. Then we have to figure out where what time is going where. Which I really like that Marriott diversion. You can do this on Google Calendar, right? That's where she showed us to do it is just putting in scheduling out your month [00:31:00] or whatever and putting it in those color coding time blocks, something to help you know, where is it going now? Because like you said, we end up building a life that we don't even really like or enjoy.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Marit Burmood: So what are those pieces that we don't enjoy? Because those in my mind, those are the first that are going to go right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, totally. I want to give a lower lift option to folks who are a little overwhelmed by Marriott's approach to, to time blocking everything because yes. [00:31:30] All right. So recently I did, I did a.
Marit Burmood: Walk.
Nancy McClelland: In, ask a CPA. We had Sharon Fuller come in and she helped us do what was called a time audit. And she gave us just a little it's a, a little spreadsheet, like a Google Sheet thing where you just track this time for one day or one week or one month. Like you do it for a period of time. It's not something you necessarily do all the time. And then you just look at that [00:32:00] data and you can pretty easily throw it into AI and be like, hey, tell me, tell me what this means. Right. Um, but one of the things that she had us do that I thought was really interesting is first she had us guess at how many hours we were spending doing this or that or the other thing, and then we track it and then we compare against our guess. And I was like, huh, that's really interesting. Why are we doing that? And she's like, because [00:32:30] the bigger the gap, the more careful you have to be moving forward.
Marit Burmood: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Isn't that really cool? Yeah. So for those who want to do this kind of time audit and all of that, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be forever. And it doesn't have to be, it can be the, the light version, but the key is don't, don't leave all of this in your head. Look at your professional mission, what you are actually trying to create. Look at your personal mission. What do you want your life to look like [00:33:00] and do this time audit and see how am I actually spending my time? And will you actually recommend ranking them in order of importance. Right.
Marit Burmood: I mean, for me, that's how it works best for my brain because and I mean, you also said you feel good when you're helping people. You feel good when you're making an impact. You feel good when you're doing X, Y, or Z. So do I. I mean, I feel good when I'm there and I'm [00:33:30] able to help, like help pick up my kids from school. But I feel dang good when I'm on that stage or after. And people are like, you just totally showed me the light on something I hadn't thought about. Right. So I think for me, ranking it in that order of importance and also being flexible, right? Like I remember, I was always feeling very torn between everything that I have. And I was doing yoga and the teacher said, [00:34:00] oh yeah, we were doing some tree pose or some balancing pose. And she said, just this is just like life. You're going to wobble. You're going to be heavier on one side or heavier on the other balance. You're never going to be perfectly balanced. Everything's perfect on both sides. You're going to sway. Be like the tree, right? Like go with the flow.
Nancy McClelland: So I am writing that down.
Marit Burmood: I think about it all the time. And because it's like, I do have times where I'm very light family wise and [00:34:30] I'm very heavy work wise. It's tax season is the perfect example of a very heavy work way. And I the family isn't dropped, but boy, they're they're not dragging, they're not getting a lot of my time and giving yourself grace on that. And then yes, ranking it in order of importance, but knowing that can change. So for me for a long time, just kind of getting my name out there and getting that people understanding, hey, I do know what I'm talking about when I'm teaching you. That was an important thing [00:35:00] for me to portray. And now I'm kind of like, well, that's important. But if I'm going to be taking away from my family time and money. It's now not as important, whereas before it was worth that sacrifice. Yeah. So yeah, always just knowing what is your north, as Misty would say. What's your north star, right? Like, what is the one thing that's guiding you that's more important than anything?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think I have too many North stars, I don't know. No, that's not true. I have I have [00:35:30] one North star, but it's just that a lot of things fit underneath that, which is I want to help people feel less alone. That is my North Star that that guides everything that I do, both personally and professionally. But the problem is it's so broad that a lot of yeses can fit underneath that. So I think what I'm learning here is that I need to be more granular in how I'm defining that mission and [00:36:00] ranking like, well, which of which of the opportunities are going to help me, like get to that North star or point me toward that North Star. Which ones are going to be the most effective? Which ones are going to be the most lasting? Which ones are going to have the most impact? And I haven't done that ranking thing. I, I'm thinking of it as like juggling all of these things, but I think ranking makes way more sense. So I really appreciate that.
Marit Burmood: Well, and if you think about it, everybody has [00:36:30] a different goal, right? Like some people are like money, money. I don't care about if I'm happy while I'm doing the work, right. Like I just want. And that's totally like, I know some hustlers in this industry, amazing tax practices, they're out everything they do, they've got a price tag on it. Like if you want me to go on this, it's going to cost you X. If you want a meeting with me, it's going to cost you X. It's going to money, money, money. And then there's other people, you know, that are like, I just want to do [00:37:00] it for the impact. Money is not my important thing at all. Yeah, but we need money to live. So I really think when it comes to between, I think money in general is such a nuanced topic. And I think as women, it's okay to say we want to do things for money, but then it's also good to determine in that ranking order how important is the money, right? Like I have three kids that are very expensive. [00:37:30] I had it very, very low on my list and it caused stress in other areas. So like, I need to make money a little bit more important. Like I can't just say yes to everything if it's not going to pay me while still holding on to my north star of like impact and helping people.
Nancy McClelland: I gotta say though, that the, the, the money part of it, I think you can do this same sort of audit with it in terms of, um, calculating, you know, when we think about [00:38:00] what our goals are, what, what are we out there to do when we think of the financial goals? This was something I learned from Deb Kilsheimer. She said she calculated when she figures out pricing, like when she first was figuring out how to how to do pricing with her clients. She looked at how much she needed in her life. Now this is her life. Her determination of how much she needs might be very different than mine. Maybe for her, it's [00:38:30] really important to drive a luxury car. Me, I got my old 1982 checker cab that's sitting, you know, nearly unusable, but very, very charming in a neighbor's garage because our garage is too small for it. Right. Those are very, very different needs. How much that checker costs us each year, plus all of the, you know, public transportation and ride shares versus a luxury car. Those are different. And so how much and you can do that for everything in your life, [00:39:00] right? How much we need to make like we live in Mexico part of the year. Mexico is way cheaper to live in than here in Chicago, but Chicago is way cheaper to live in than New York City or the Bay area. And so this concept of enough. I would encourage people that when you are trying to run these numbers, calculate how much you need to live the life that you want to live, and then evaluate the finances, rather than [00:39:30] that amorphous sense of, I need to make money, you know, I want to make $1 million. Well, what do you want to make $1 million for? What are you going to do with that?
Marit Burmood: How good is that? That's such an opposite way of all the stuff that you see online of everyone saying, manifest $1 million, like you just said, manifest this manifest that set that really big number so that you can get to it. But I really like your version to just first of all, see what you would need [00:40:00] and what you would want for that comfortable life, right?
Nancy McClelland: Like, yeah. What does enough look like for you?
Marit Burmood: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, if we're going to do that audit on these other areas, if we're going to determine, um, you know, here are what my here are my priorities in terms of family or hobbies or social activities and all of the different things that we're doing in our businesses, the things we like and that we dislike. Well then why not? Yeah. Why not? Well, don't you think we have to too?
Marit Burmood: Because especially [00:40:30] for women who try to prove themselves in this industry, and we're constantly just trying to prove ourselves, trying to prove ourselves, get these opportunities, we have to make money part of the equation. We have to. Otherwise, we'll just say yes because of all of these other reasons, and we'll suffer, our quality of life will suffer.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I.
Marit Burmood: Think.
Nancy McClelland: Many.
Marit Burmood: People just feel like, oh, I don't want to be greedy. I don't want to. You know, I don't. It's uncomfortable. [00:41:00]
Nancy McClelland: It's true. It is. Money is super uncomfortable. And while I. I really love, you know, one of the people I, um, am gonna, uh, be bringing on this show is Diana Gleason. She's actually going to talk with us about, you know, how to do this, how to make our relationship with money a little bit more positive. And Robina Bennion, she's got the whole money loves you thing. And while I very much agree with that, I also, you know, maybe [00:41:30] it's kind of special that women don't feel like we have to define ourselves based on our finances. Maybe it's kind of special. I mean, I want us to have healthy relationships with money, and I don't want it to feel uncomfortable. But if you want to be generous and that's a conscious decision on your part, like that's part of what works for you. It's Aaron Cohan's concept of two success from Wave Seattle. You know, it was all about [00:42:00] define what makes this work for you. Your idea of what success is not somebody else's idea.
Marit Burmood: Mhm. Yeah. Instead of trying to fit that norm that you see. And it's so hard with social media and everything that you're out. It's so easy. It is. It's so yourself to others. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: I hate which is why we've got to do this opportunity cost analysis. So step one list the commitments. So what are you currently [00:42:30] saying yes to now we need to break this out. Pretty detailed right? Yeah. Like work clients, committees, leadership roles, speaking really to look on your.
Marit Burmood: Calendar, because that calendar is going to tell you, you might not need to go color code everything, but you'll look and you'll see real quick what you're saying yes to on your calendar.
Nancy McClelland: Although you want to know what is weird about the calendar, if you're, if you're not doing time blocking or you're not keeping a diary or you're not tracking hours, [00:43:00] is those big blank spots. What's filling up those blank spots? Right? Like, are you getting lost in a hole down the internet on Instagram? Um. That's true. Last night I went on an accidental Dolly Parton, um, dive, which, I mean, it was enjoyable, but is that how I needed to spend that 45 minutes of my life?
Marit Burmood: I mean, that's your recovery time, diamond.
Nancy McClelland: I don't know [00:43:30] that I, I don't know that that's true. I don't know that that was that.
Marit Burmood: Wasn't your recovery time.
Nancy McClelland: I don't think it was. I think it would have 45 minutes of, you know, of reading my book or 45 minutes of sleeping. Um, might have been higher quality, but you know, like there are those big gaps on your calendar. So what's filling those gaps, I think is important because we can we can pretty easily lose.
Marit Burmood: And I'm going to do this after this podcast, I'm [00:44:00] gonna first look on my calendar at things that are blocked. Oh yeah, I forgot I'm doing that. Oh yeah. I said yes to this. Oh yeah, I'm doing that. I'm going to first. I'm going to write everything I can see. And then I'll start looking at those blocks seeing like, okay, well, I know I work during that time. And then I had to go get the kids and take them to violin or whatever. So I got family. I mean, my family time's pretty consistent, right? Like they usually need me from X time to X time every day.
Nancy McClelland: Okay. All right.
Marit Burmood: And so you can block that out next kind [00:44:30] of see where it's going, right. And how much time is spent on each thing.
Nancy McClelland: You know, one of the, one of the ones that gets lost for me is the amount of time that I spend, um, mentoring or chatting or, you know, a quick conversation. So like this morning, uh, I got a text from David Leary, who I love, who is one of [00:45:00] the, you know, producers of the podcast at, at earmark. And he's a great guy, a good friend, has been a mentor to me off and on through the years. And he had a quick question about something, and we were on the phone for 45 minutes. At the end of the call, I was like, I love you, and I am literally hanging up on you right now. I am hanging up on you. I'm hanging up the phone because we kept talking. We kept talking. And was it a wonderful conversation? Yes. But like, was that what I maybe should [00:45:30] have been working on today? No. So it that I feel like there's a lot of the networking and mentoring and connecting with people and that's wonderful. But like, how intentional is it? Is that where I want to spend that time?
Marit Burmood: Yeah. And I'm so opposite. I have like a bajillion unread messages and unanswered phone calls. And I'm trying to do better on that. So might.
Nancy McClelland: Actually spend more time paying attention to that communication.
Marit Burmood: Ranking on [00:46:00] time, like spending. Nurturing my relationships is important to me. It's very important to my happiness and to my well-being. And yet somehow I always let it slide below things that aren't as important. You know why? Because they're more loud.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Marit Burmood: So they're more.
Nancy McClelland: Just.
Marit Burmood: After me. After me. So I say, oh, I'll call that person back later. I'll text them back later. And I it gets so out of control so fast. I'm still working on that. So I think that's great. We first, [00:46:30] we kind of block lay out what we're doing and then we're running that number, running the numbers. I mean, it's easy to run the numbers if we look at from an hourly point, right? Like a lot of people think, well, I bought a house clean. I get a house cleaner because I can make X amount in the three hours it takes to, to clean my house and I'm paying my house cleaner ex right. You can do those kinds of actual mathematical numbers as it correlates. But then there's also that intangible value, which is harder for us to value. So we just skip [00:47:00] it and we don't factor it in. We have to try to find a way of like factoring it in. It's still taking our time and taking away from something else. So, you know, it's important to me to nurture those relationships, but then how do I value that to make sure that I'm nurturing them? And I know it's important.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. That totally makes sense. So so if so, step one is listing your commitments. Then step two is running the numbers. What do each of those [00:47:30] commitments, what do they return so that the financial return or career return or time. Yeah. Relationships, learning personal energy. I mean all, all sorts of stuff. So then what does it really cost? Like that concept. And remember when you're talking about events, you got to add prep travel admin follow up and recovery. Like that's, that's because I often [00:48:00] look at like, oh, it's just, well, actually, I'll give a great example. Um, advisory amplified is six cities and I was like, oh, six days over three weeks. That's easy. Right?
Marit Burmood: Mhm.
Nancy McClelland: Well, it's not six days over three weeks. Like you have to, you have to, in addition to planning the whole podcast and arranging for, uh, interviewing people and, um, like all of the stuff that goes around it, there's also [00:48:30] getting to the venue and then coming back from it, like it's actually three days for each one of those. And you know, it took me two and a half days to book all of my travel. It actually did.
Marit Burmood: I know I hate booking travel. You know, I don't like calendar booking. I hate booking travel.
Nancy McClelland: That sounds like. No, I enjoy it, I enjoy it, it feels like a puzzle to me, but it's super time consuming. And of course, I didn't put that. [00:49:00] I didn't block out two and a half days on my calendar over a period of three weeks to, to book travel, right? Like that's, so I forget to add those things into it. Smart. Yeah. Well, it's not smart. It will be smart when.
Marit Burmood: It's smart for everyone to learn from that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, definitely. Okay, so step three. Step three the uncomfortable question. This is the part where I super need your help. If I were deciding [00:49:30] today, knowing what I know now, like while you're doing the thing that you already said yes to, right. Would I choose this again.
Marit Burmood: Right.
Nancy McClelland: That's really, really uncomfortable. I don't like. I don't like even asking that question. I definitely don't like answering it. How do you handle that?
Marit Burmood: I think that one's really hard for me too, because I [00:50:00] know that if my answer, again, I just have a hard time saying no to things. It's like I have FOMO, right?
Nancy McClelland: I'm like, oh yeah.
Marit Burmood: I probably should. Knowing what I know today, I probably know I can think back.
Nancy McClelland: You know what Jomo is. Have you heard of Jomo?
Marit Burmood: No.
Nancy McClelland: It's called Joy of Missing Out. There's like a whole website.
Marit Burmood: Cool. Okay, I'm.
Nancy McClelland: Gonna.
Marit Burmood: Have Jomo from now on.
Nancy McClelland: Oh.
Marit Burmood: Gosh.
Nancy McClelland: I find. I [00:50:30] find Jomo really, really difficult to access, but I'm working on it. Um, and it used to be. So you and I are both extreme extroverts, so I know for sure you'll understand this. It used to be when I did bookkeeping, accounting and tax, like all day long, every day. I was very quiet in my office by myself, and I had very few meetings, and my husband was working in an office. And he's an introvert, right? [00:51:00] And so my battery is being drained by being alone. His battery is being drained by being with all of these people. He would come home and I would be like, daba daba, daba daba daba daba. And he's like, oh my gosh. Get this woman away from me. But like, I needed interaction and he needed alone time. So we were like the opposite. Whereas now I'm in meetings all day long, every day. And so we're on a somewhat more similar [00:51:30] energy level by the end of the day. Um, and he's working from home. So he's, although he is in meetings, you know, they're not in person meetings. And so it's not quite as draining as as it was for him. Um, and so being, being the way that it is all the time busy, busy, busy for me, I actually do have the occasional joy of missing out when I will, um, like [00:52:00] go somewhere and be in a hotel overnight and nobody knows I'm there and I just have a night to myself to like, bring a book to dinner at the restaurant, you know, and at the hotel restaurant. And so I think I understand the concept behind Joy of missing out, but I'm trying to figure out like, how do I emulate that in other parts of my life?
Marit Burmood: Well, when I said no to that conference this last year, um, the day school was out, I [00:52:30] had, and I mean, I have a lot of friends who were at that conference. I've spoken there for like three years in a row. You know, I a lot of air on saying no, but when I was with the kids eating the froyo blasting school's out for summer. I had Jomo. And during that same time I also I had, um, spoke at Grocon and met Roger connect, and he invited me to come on the Universal [00:53:00] Accounting podcast. So that same week, I also went and that was, you know, that one was actually an in person. They have their universal accounting is based in Utah. And so I drove to the podcast studio to the Universal Accounting podcast. We had at least 2 or 3 hours. I dressed up nice. We just chatted and chatted and I had another Jomo moment. Right? So it was this juxtaposition of I'm missing out on stuff, but I'm filling it with, [00:53:30] again, the things that are ranking more important to me that are higher on my list. And so, you know, that uncomfortable question if I were deciding today, would I choose this again? It's like, I think we all try to live our life with no regrets and. And everything I've said yes to has led me here where I'm at now. But moving forward, just having more intention with my time has helped. So maybe I would still keep it as it was. But if I get the same opportunity [00:54:00] repeating itself or a similar one, would I say yes again? Maybe not if it doesn't fit my goals. And then I fill that time though, with what I said no to with something that does so. Always making.
Nancy McClelland: Sure.
Marit Burmood: That you're you're making sure that when you're saying no, instead of feeling like, oh, did I make the right decision? You're like, no, I did, because I'm going to do X, Y, and Z instead.
Nancy McClelland: I love that. Yeah, yeah. That's great.
Marit Burmood: You get a little tinge still. It's hard to get the job. Sometimes the FOMO [00:54:30] takes over, but if you can fill it up, you'll get the Jomo.
Nancy McClelland: I like that, I like that. Okay, so step four. Decide for each commitment and here are the choices.
Marit Burmood: That you have now. Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Keep it, change it, delegate it, renegotiate it, finish it or let it go. So I think your point there is that not everything [00:55:00] needs to go. It's not just keep it or let it go. There are all of these. There are all of these things in between. Keep it and let it go. Change it, delegate it, renegotiate it or finish it.
Marit Burmood: And some things they might be still expensive in terms of your time, the investment, it might not have this ROI of actual money. It might still be incredibly valuable, valuable enough to keep it.
Nancy McClelland: And again, valuable based on what [00:55:30] we did at the beginning of this whole thing, which is. You have to figure out what you want. First, you have to figure out what your goals are first, which is hard when you want all the things. But if you rank them like you have mentioned numerous times, which is, I think that's the part that I need to do. And you factor.
Marit Burmood: In all those extra costs of what it's.
Nancy McClelland: Actually.
Marit Burmood: Going to take you, not, you know, the extra time, prep time, travel time, recovery time. [00:56:00] That's something I learned too from this.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the point here, it's to stop funding things automatically, right? Like don't, don't let your calendar have a direct transfer to your, your bank account of time, energy and money.
Marit Burmood: Right, right.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So, I mean, I, I, I totally want to do this and I think I need, I think I need your help. I think [00:56:30] we need to go for coffee or, um, maybe I'll go to maybe Melissa Miller Ferguson and I will go, um, but wait, today is her birthday. I'm just now realizing we're recording on Melissa's birthday. So happy birthday to Melissa. Melissa. I get yeah, I get to go out with her on, on Friday. Um, but maybe I should like, she and I should go out to a bar and we'll be like, okay, let's do this together. And we actually have to do the ranking part because I think that's the hardest part because [00:57:00] for me, anyway, what do you do when the commitment with the weakest financial return is the one you love the most? And I'm not naming names she counts podcast, but you know what, how, how does that work? And, and I, I think that your point is not that you're going to tell me to quit what I love. It's just that I need to know what the real price is before I'm [00:57:30] making like so that I can make an intentional decision because the real price of it is not just I'm tired. The real price is what are all of the things I don't get to do because of it, right?
Marit Burmood: 100%.
Nancy McClelland: Is that a price that I'm willing to keep paying? So.
Marit Burmood: And then if you are willing to keep paying it, settle on in. Because if you continue to be torn, torn, torn, torn, torn, torn, you're it's, you know, it's like if you, if you have this commitment and [00:58:00] you're like, okay, I really, and that could be anything that could be that board of advisors story, right? Like it could have really been bringing me joy, but literally bringing me $0 and taking a lot of time. But I loved it then I better not complain about the time it's taking me and the $0 that it's paying me because I've made that intentional decision that I love it. And it's a passion project, right? And then sure, if, if I end up getting paid or getting more opportunities, that's great. But that's not the goal of keeping that specific, [00:58:30] that specific thing on my plate, right? Like the goal of that would be just that it makes me, I really, really like it and it makes me feel good.
Nancy McClelland: So maybe ambition isn't the problem after all. Like maybe ambition has nothing to do with it. Maybe the question is just whether we're paying a price that we're actually consciously, intentionally willing to pay for the life that we're building. Because I just feel like ambition is so amorphous and so emotional. [00:59:00] And it's, it's, it's the opposite of what we as accountants really want to be doing.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. And I, I really don't want women to think or hear this and feel like, oh, I need to stop being ambitious. Right? Like, I was talking to Misty a little while ago about being a high achiever and she was making me feel better because sometimes I feel like, what's wrong with me? Right? Like there.
Nancy McClelland: Isn't.
Marit Burmood: If you're a high achiever, if you're ambitious, if [00:59:30] you want money, you want more responsibility, you want more impact, more success, whatever it is. That is totally okay. Just be intentional with how you're going about it, because we don't have all the time in the world and we're ambitious. We're high achievers. A lot of people want a lot of stuff from us. And it can I'm sure you know, Lynette, it's like we're dropping all these names, but the burnout bestie, I'm sure she can attest.
Nancy McClelland: To what.
Marit Burmood: Happens when we're not intentional with our time, as we are also [01:00:00] high achievers, ambitious women. And we can do it all and we can really have a life that's super fulfilling. It's just cutting that dead weight of the things we've said yes to that aren't attributing to those personal and, you know, career, those success goals, the career goals, I think.
Nancy McClelland: Totally. And, and by the way, I don't know if you know this, but Lynette was our very first guest on the She Counts podcast.
Marit Burmood: I didn't I know she was on I didn't know she was.
Nancy McClelland: She was the very first guest.
Marit Burmood: Yeah, [01:00:30] that's a good way to kick it off.
Nancy McClelland: It sure. It sure was. It sure was. This has been such an incredible conversation, super helpful to me personally. I'd love that you can be vulnerable with me about, you know, the fact that we're just being honest here. We do not have this figured out, but we are working on it and we've got some exercises that you can do with us. And speaking of doing stuff with us, I would love to ask listeners to [01:01:00] please follow the She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page because under this episode, we are going to post the question. If you looked at your entire portfolio of commitments today, which ones would you choose again? And I would really love it if listeners could share one commitment that you would have chosen differently on. And I think you might be surprised at how many other women are making that same calculation.
Marit Burmood: Yeah, I definitely [01:01:30] think it helps for us all to have the conversation because we have so much to offer each other. We have so much that we can help inspire each other with. Just like you and I named about ten other women just in this conversation of all the things that they're doing. It's a really, really helpful when people just, no matter what it is, if they can comment, if they can say their tips, their tricks, the mistakes they made, the things that they didn't factor in. So we can all learn from each other. And before we sign [01:02:00] off, we want to leave you with a quote by Annie Dillard from her book, The Writing Life, where she says, how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.
Nancy McClelland: I love that it is so easy to lose track of that and be like, oh, I just have these things that I need to get out of the way and I need to get done until tomorrow. Until tomorrow, until tomorrow. And then, you know, you realize, oh my gosh, that that's [01:02:30] actually how I spent the last five years. Oh, that's not just today. And it's not just tomorrow. It's how we spend our days is how we spend our lives. That's such a great quote. And please remember, listeners, you can get CPE credit for listening at earmark. I don't know how many people are aware of that, but it's like an amazing way to get your CPE credit. And, um, you just go to earmark [01:03:00] dot PPP links to that and our sponsors solutions and the resources and the people that we mentioned today, I'll put those all in the show notes.
Marit Burmood: And listen, thank you so much for being here with us on She Counts. Thank you for letting me. Come on, Nancy, I had a great time. The Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: I was so, so glad that you joined us. Thank you. I hope it is the first of many, many, many, many, many. As I mentioned in the, [01:03:30] um, most recent episode that I recorded with questions, uh, questions, first episode as a guest on the show, I am really hoping that merit and I will end up, uh, coming back to you together as co-hosts at some point. I certainly, certainly loved being here with you today. I feel like we could just talk all day long if something in today's episode made our listeners stop and think, then I'm really glad because that's exactly [01:04:00] why we're doing this.
Marit Burmood: Yeah. So you feel seen and heard and just never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Never alone. Thank you so much for being here, and we will see you in two weeks. Bye, everyone.