Break Free From Burnout

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Nancy McClelland : Welcome to. She counts, the Real talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland.

Questian Telka: And Questian Telka.

Nancy McClelland : And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.

Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure [00:00:30] it out alone.

Nancy McClelland : Special thanks to our sponsors, Forwardly Ignition and Keeper for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Today's episode is called Break Free from burnout.

Questian Telka: And I'm really excited because we have a very special guest with us. Our first guest on the show, and that is Lynette O'Connell. She is better known [00:01:00] as the burnout bestie. And she's going to help us explore how burnout affects women differently than men and what we can do about it.

Nancy McClelland : Now, full disclosure here. I want to be super honest about this. You know, this is the real talk podcast for women in accounting, in contrast to the other episodes that we've recorded, this area, burnout. This is something where we both question and I, your co-hosts, feel completely lost. We don't [00:01:30] have advice for others because we're both struggling with burnout ourselves, uh, at times sort of teetering on the edge. And that is the main reason that we wanted to bring in an expert to talk about this incredibly important topic, especially for women in accounting.

Questian Telka: And with that, I'm delighted to introduce a very dear friend of ours, Lynette O'Connell. Not only is she a burnout coach, but also, and [00:02:00] just as importantly, if not more so, a mom of two and stepmom to three more. She's best known again as Burnout Bestie. She's a CPA and a former auditor, and she then started and sold her own successful Cass practice. So she knows right where all of us are. Now she's a coach for other accountants who are struggling with chronic stress and imbalance.

Nancy McClelland : And as our listeners know, we love launching each episode with a story. But [00:02:30] this time we're going to ask Lynette to share hers with us. Lynette, welcome to She Counts. Thanks for being here.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Thanks, Nancy. Thanks, Christian. It's a pleasure to be here with you guys. And I'm so honored that you chose to hear my story as part of all of our story, I want to be really upfront with all the listeners. Being an expert in burnout is sort of this this catch because I'm not a clinician. I'm not a [00:03:00] psychologist, I'm a CPA, just like you guys. I'm an accountant, I'm a mom. I'm a wife. I have all of these roles, and I know what I know about burnout because I experienced it firsthand. And in my desperation to crawl out of a hole of burnout, I started educating myself. And I realized how much information there is that we just don't share with one another because it doesn't relate to our day to day work. But if we started [00:03:30] talking about it like on your podcast. So thank you for creating this format for these kinds of topics. It can really be life changing for people. I remember the first time I heard some of these concepts and I thought, why did nobody tell me before? Which actually highlights the importance of community among us women. We need to be talking. We need to be sharing because you never know what somebody else is going through. We do such a great job of masking our struggles until [00:04:00] we get desperate. So we need to be talking. So I appreciate you inviting me to have this conversation with you.

Nancy McClelland : Thank you for being here. Thank you. We appreciate you and we appreciate the work you're doing. You've already been so helpful to me and I can't wait for more.

Questian Telka: Yeah, we're we're definitely going to I mean, we've been talking to you, both of us, about this for a long time, but we're definitely going to be absorbing this ourselves today and hoping to implement some of it.

Lynnette Oss Connell: All right. Let's see if we can do something helpful. Let's see what we can [00:04:30] do. Let's dive in.

Nancy McClelland : All right. So share share your story with us Lynette.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Well, like most of us, it's so multifaceted. But the piece of the story that I want to tell today is the end of the story, right? When I got to the point of burnout where I said, oh, my gosh, I'm past the point of no return. So I was running my last practice, I. Day to day have this incredibly elaborate time [00:05:00] blocked calendar. So I see some people throwing this around like on socials, you know, time blocking or various other techniques. Yeah. There you go, Nancy. I did all the things, like I had these layers of organizational structure that enabled me to be incredibly efficient, to serve not only as the owner of a firm and, you know, CFO, controller of several companies. But I also was like soccer team [00:05:30] manager, right? I was for two, like one of my kids and like a backup for other sports things. And everybody would say to me, I heard other moms saying to me, wow, how do you do it? And I thought, I actually thought to myself, well, I just I just time block like it's a superpower, right?

Nancy McClelland : Oh my gosh. Lynette. Okay, I have to interrupt to say I am listening to this, and I jotted down a note to share with you later. It's in front of me. I'm. I'm reading this off of the piece of paper, [00:06:00] but I'm proud of my time blocking superpower. It literally says those words. I am proud of it. Are you about to tell me I'm not allowed to time block anymore?

Lynnette Oss Connell: No. You should.

Nancy McClelland : Okay. Good, good. Go, go. I was going to tell you.

Lynnette Oss Connell: I was going to say this later in the story, but I think it's so applicable in the story that I'm going to share it now. Energy time blocking is just as important as task time blocking. So what was happening is I was and [00:06:30] as I say, engineer, I had engineered a life of my own overfunctioning. And I know Nancy likes that saying from me. So I'm going to say it again for listeners. I had engineered a life of my own overfunctioning, and I thought to myself, I've done all the right things. My mom is my backup with the kids. I have a neighbor who's a backup with the kids I like, I have backups for work, right? I had employees who had tasks. But at the end of the [00:07:00] day, all of those systems relied on me to keep them going. And there was not beyond my husband, who at home was is really able to hold some capacity. For the kids as well. It's not just me. We share those responsibilities at the same time. When there's a family emergency, he is also going through it with.

Nancy McClelland : Me, right? Right.

Lynnette Oss Connell: And his stress is manifesting in its own unique way. And so the importance, the my point is kind of twofold in what I learned [00:07:30] was that I had community. I thought, I have friends, I have community, I have work friends. I at the time, like I was going to this vibrant church where I had community there. I have family who cares about me deeply that I'm close to. I have community, but what I didn't have was. As the conversations around what happens when life gets Lifey like I was not able to to call somebody and say, I'm tapping [00:08:00] out, I need you to tap in. Um, having intimate relationships with other women and not just one.

Questian Telka: Multiple.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Multiple is that's where community can be life changing, not just the surface level community. I was spending so much time working and like, fulfilling my time block schedule that I hadn't cultivated the depth of relationship I needed, not just from an emotional level, [00:08:30] but so that I had somebody on a practical level to come in and, and sister and mother and friend me. Not that I don't have a mom, not that I don't have a sister, but to really come in and be a caretaker of me.

Nancy McClelland : Wow. My I, I have to interrupt again just to say I have. I have shivers on me right now I have goosebumps. Somebody that concept of having somebody to be a caretaker of the caretaker. Um, my [00:09:00] therapist and I talk about the fact that, um. Because sometimes I feel like I'm laying some pretty heavy stuff on her, and I'm a very empathetic person, so I worry about my therapist, and I say, what are you doing? And she said, you know, because she's the caretaker, she is. And so she says, don't worry, I've got my people that I go to. You know, she's my therapist, she has her own therapist. And we joke that if you go up the ladder of therapists, eventually at the top, it's a bartender.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Hysterical. [00:09:30] That's so applicable to me.

Questian Telka: I've not heard that, but that's good.

Nancy McClelland : It's a good one. So please. I'm sorry I keep interrupting your story. Lynette.

Lynnette Oss Connell: No. It's affirmative. Um, that we all have these experiences, right? That's why we interrupt. Why we say yes? Me, too. Right. Yeah.

Questian Telka: That's why we started a podcast. Yeah, exactly. And it's like having that community, having those the the mother, sister, you know, relationship people to [00:10:00] show up in those situations and to show up for them as well.

Nancy McClelland : And if you're listening, I want to give a shout out to my optimistic bats out there, because you are those people for me. Thank you.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So back to the story. So I'm running my firm and running on what I thought was great efficiency. In fact, my husband can tell you that when you would fill out, you know, surveys or what? What are my my [00:10:30] top three characteristics or what am I most proud of? I would always name that I was efficient. Like, I had figured out how to be so efficient and so I had maximized the time of every day. Like I, I exercised, I took care of my kids. I had time one on one with each of them. Like, right, we stack it to efficiency.

Questian Telka: Can I ask you a question?

Lynnette Oss Connell: Sure.

Questian Telka: What did you do when you just didn't feel like doing one of those things? What?

Lynnette Oss Connell: I override [00:11:00] my feelings.

Questian Telka: And you do it anyway, and then that would cause the burnout.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So I remember telling people my ability to recognize a feeling in my body and to choose a, like a light switch to just shut it off. I'd be like, oh, I kind of feel that. And then I would do this analytical assessment. Does that serve my goals? Like I have goals, right? I have I'm a firm owner. I want to make money. I want to be a leader in my community. I want to do all these. I have so many [00:11:30] goals. And the problem wasn't that I had too many goals. The problem was that everything else served them so strictly that I lost my ability to see myself as a whole human. And I just I was serving That like I was, I was in full allegiance to getting the thing done. And so sometimes I see people and I know we don't see the whole picture on socials, but it's like all you need to do is this or be so mentally [00:12:00] dedicated to this or. And my favorite at the moment is when I'm talking about building my coaching business, which is very new for me. Oh, Lynette, you need to do these things. Um, I know that that advice is always so well intended, but I'm building this business to serve me as I serve others. I need to have it be both. Because once you've hit burnout, like, full blown. I know burnout is not a destination. It is a journey. But once you've kind of hit [00:12:30] that tip to the really burnt out end, you don't just take a break and go back to ground zero. It's a spectrum. You've worked your way into overwork, overfunctioning. Your nervous system is fried Side and you don't. You don't just hop back to the beginning just because you took a vacation or whatever you chose to do, you kind of travel back. You need to heal from burnout because it's a whole body experience. [00:13:00] It's not just once I stop my overwork, it's it's better reset.

Nancy McClelland : Yeah.

Lynnette Oss Connell: That's why the energy audit is really important. So just to for the listeners to explain kind of what that is, is when you look at your day, are you balancing life giving with non-life giving. Because what I did is I looked at my time block calendar and I said, I have a lot of work life balance. I have so much work life balance. I only work 3.5 hours a day, right? I only work 3.5 hours a day. I run a successful firm. [00:13:30] I have, I have it in the bag. But no, the rest of my day was still full of caregiving. My children and my. I had my father passed away. My grandmother passed away. And so there's this family events that are very emotionally heavy. And just because it's a work life balance and I'm not working that much, I'm working the rest of the time, too. Your family work is work, too.

Questian Telka: Right? You're not taking care of your emotional needs, [00:14:00] your needs for downtime, your need for like, stepping away from the caregiving of somebody else.

Lynnette Oss Connell: One thing I've heard Nancy say a lot to me is what she's already said. But I'm proud of that superpower. Or I like my working, you know, and that's where the energy versus the categorical analysis needs to happen is within your work, within your family, within your community work or your religious community or your your YMCA. [00:14:30] Whatever volunteer work you do, what are the tasks you're doing within that role that give you life and serve and serve others or pour into others? There needs to be that balance. Am I pouring out and receiving in? And now every day and every task, every volunteer position or work obligation doesn't need to be equal. Like you don't have to have it 5050. I'm giving and receiving, but there does need [00:15:00] to be intentional intentionality around what gives you life. So, Nancy, there are probably some things that you do that are work that aren't work for you at all. You get energized and you thrive from that, and you shouldn't do less of it. But that's going to be different for each individual person. So that's where the energy audit comes in.

Nancy McClelland : Okay. Okay.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Within your role are you balanced?

Nancy McClelland : I love that. That is fantastic. Thank you so much [00:15:30] for sharing all of this. Meaty wonderful. Like I feel like we could probably end the episode there after 15 minutes and everybody would be like, okay, I've got a whole list of things I need.

Questian Telka: To look.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Into.

Nancy McClelland : This is fabulous. Oh, let's.

Lynnette Oss Connell: I didn't finish my story.

Nancy McClelland : Oh. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Yes. I want to wrap it up. Yes, I want the rest of the story. All right. Okay. Let's all stay focused on this story.

Lynnette Oss Connell: No. It's fine. So the way I realized that I [00:16:00] was imbalanced, even though my work life balance seemed to be balanced, was that my life had become so full of all my obligations, all of my duties to my family. My husband hates it when I call it a duty because he says that's so negative. Like, no, it's just that's.

Questian Telka: How you.

Nancy McClelland : Felt.

Questian Telka: That's what that's what you call it when you kind of like it becomes that when you are in a situation where [00:16:30] you're just doing all the time, right? Well, but it's like some of.

Lynnette Oss Connell: It I love that if it's a do, it's a duty.

Nancy McClelland : Oh that's nice.

Lynnette Oss Connell: I don't know how true.

Nancy McClelland : That is, you know, Although that's pretty funny for me because. And then it becomes.

Lynnette Oss Connell: I don't know.

Nancy McClelland : My grandma Bunny was, um, you know, her husband was in the Air Force his whole life. And, um, the way that, uh, she told me to go to the bathroom was to do my duty. And so I thought that duty meant meant bathroom. Well, [00:17:00] I mean, for most.

Questian Telka: Does it not kind of feel that way? Like, I don't know, duty to me generally equals, like, something I don't want to necessarily do. Yes.

Nancy McClelland : Interesting.

Questian Telka: Maybe the bathroom.

Nancy McClelland : I don't I don't have that negative connotation with the word duty. I do have the bathroom connotation. But in life I know I don't think of it that way, but I think that part of that is that, um, my husband's love language is acts of service. And so his concept of being dutiful is, you know, [00:17:30] it's really important to us and to seeing his love for me. So I think of duty as a very positive concept.

Lynnette Oss Connell: That is such a fascinating reflection to me because my husband also sees acts of service as his love language. And for a long time in our relationship, he would ask me, you know what mine is? And I'm like, it's not acts of service. And he's like, well, I think it is because you do so much for us. Like and he's like, I identify that, I see that. And so I feel that [00:18:00] as love. And I was like, I'm not giving it as love. I'm giving it as obligation. So sorry. Agreed. Yeah. That's not it. And so he was wondering why it was that the more I did for the family, I would become irritable and resentful, even if they would return to me and say, thank you so much for doing that. And that actually, I didn't intend to say this, but like, that was hugely instrumental in me realizing, why am I doing [00:18:30] all of my duty if it feels like doo doo?

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nancy McClelland : No kidding. Oh my gosh. All right so I want to let you finish your story.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah I'll finally finish it. So we get to a point where my husband and I are talking and he's thriving in our firm. And the more we grow, he's thriving more and more. And I am breaking down more and more. And so we have this divergence [00:19:00] of thriving versus surviving. And we were in different camps. And so yes, there ended up being some some tension between us. But like the positive kind where it's like okay, why are you. Because we would have like a win in his mind on a particular day, a win. And he's like, I just we just landed this big client. We can probably hire somebody else to help with it. Like all wins when you own a firm and I'm like, we. Yay! Myself [00:19:30] have that attitude. I'm like, this is not congruent with where we should be. I should be excited. And I used to should myself. I should be excited to rally into excitement. And instead, thankfully, we had reached a level of success in our firm that I we we had a choice to make. Either I could keep the firm and I would run it as a lifestyle firm and I would no longer grow. I would probably keep our book of business and our employees, who were some lovely, [00:20:00] also moms that we had. I was so proud of what we built because we had these women working for us who could manage to basically, we're doing what I was doing. They they were managing their family and the business, working at soccer practice, working after the baby went to sleep.

Lynnette Oss Connell: But I saw it as so positive and it is positive. It's life changing for people. It enabled me so much fulfillment and success. But when we kind of spin out of control on it and we're no longer the one to manage [00:20:30] when the stress is managing us instead of us managing the stress, you've come to a problematic place. So option one was me. Keep the firm and keep it cool. We're going to we're going to keep it lifestyle. And then for him to go, you know get a CFO job somewhere. Um, full time. Or he could take our firm. We could go get acquired and I could transition out. Um, that second option was by far the best, because it's what both of us wanted. [00:21:00] He wanted to take this thing we built that he's so proud of, that I'm proud of to. And I had I had to choose to release it. We're going to let you go, and I'm going to instead focus on the type of work that I've always been passionate about. Through growing a cast practice, my favorite bits were working with other professionals. Um, not on the accounting records, on these kinds of conversations. So we we made that choice. We transitioned our firm over, I transitioned [00:21:30] out, and here I am today getting the joy of doing work that I am passionate about. And because I'm passionate about it, I need to be very careful about not burning out on it.

Nancy McClelland : Absolutely. That's one of my big takeaways from having seen you speak is that the more passionate we are about something, the more at risk we are of burnout. But let's let's pull back a second because I want to I want to give. Thank you so much for sharing the happy ending, I guess, of this [00:22:00] story. I know it's not an ending. It's a beginning. It's a journey. It's it's all of those things. But, um, I want briefly to talk about why. Why is burnout an urgent topic, especially for women in accounting? Question I know that you you had done a little bit of research on, uh, some statistics here.

Questian Telka: Yeah. Um, 99% of accountants have experienced some level of burnout, and I don't think that number is probably a surprise to very many people. [00:22:30] I think we all probably feel some level at some point. Maybe not all the time, but. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it makes sense to me. What do you guys think?

Nancy McClelland : Oh, well, wait a minute, I so 99% of accountants experience some level of burnout. Are you telling me that most accountants are stressed because, like, no duh, right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Questian Telka: Like.

Nancy McClelland : Let's state the obvious here. Lynette, can you [00:23:00] tell us a little bit about that? Uh. What the. Yeah, what what does that what does that statistic even mean?

Lynnette Oss Connell: That statistic is thrown around a lot, and I, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. It's a great intro into what is burnout in the first place. Because that's the first question I always ask with something. When I hear a statistic, I'm like, okay, that sounds really sensational. What are we talking about? So let's get our bearings for a second. Burnout [00:23:30] is the impact of chronic stress on a total person physically, mentally, emotionally. I also like to say relationally, spiritually, and spiritually. I mean like existentially. Once you get into deep burnout, you get to that level where it impacts just everything. So when we talk about somebody having at least one symptom of burnout, we're talking about stress symptoms. So it is a no duh moment. 99% of accountants [00:24:00] are stressed. Yes. And I believe that statistic or questionnaires like the one that went into this study ask you not today. Are you feeling it? But have you felt it within the last year or the last busy season? And so I can't speak to that study method methodology in particular. But when we look at any study, it's really important to consider what the parameters are and what we're talking about.

Questian Telka: Of.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Course. So if we just use that statistic to say, yes, all accountants are stressed. [00:24:30] Rest. Um, the way to handle burnout, especially in accounting, is to just is to manage stress. It's never too early to manage stress. And I will say that waiting till a deadline. Oh, after April 15th or after October 15th, then I will relax is not sustainable, although in the moment that might be a coping mechanism to just like white knuckle it, to hold on until I'm through. I'm not saying don't hold on, definitely [00:25:00] hold on. But next time around, consider giving yourself the gift of some intentional stress management, burnout prevention, equal stress management techniques.

Nancy McClelland : Okay, so during during the thing like set it up ahead of time such that during the next oh my god, this thing is happening. Life is lifing all over me. You have things to turn to. Is that what you mean?

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah. So one thing that I'm really excited about is I'm working [00:25:30] on building a group coaching program for accountants. But in there we we're going to talk about building a prevention plan and building a recovery plan. And they're going to include some different techniques. Really the goal of it is that I want everyone to be responding to the stressors in their life, instead of reacting to the stressors in their life. When you're reacting, you're putting out all these fires and that you're you have a heightened stress response when you do that, [00:26:00] when you have a plan going into something, even if you need a plan A, plan B, plan C, you are coming from a grounded state of, oh, I anticipated this. Psychologically, you're coming from it as a capable, equipped person, you don't feel like life is spinning out of control. You you feel like you have options. This is responding instead of reacting. I mean, a lot of us who've gone through therapy.

Questian Telka: What [00:26:30] would you say in terms of. Because I think there are a lot of people who thrive out of putting out fires, who thrive out of responding or reacting. Right. Rather than making sure rather than preventing ahead of time. So, like, how would you say to manage burnout two or manage it? If someone is if that's kind of their go to and that's kind of how they are.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So a couple things. One is they're [00:27:00] thriving off of putting out fires is definitely a superpower. And so we don't need to make that not be part of your life, but choosing intentionally at a period in time when you're not overwhelmed by putting out the fires where that's going to happen. So, for example, if you're constantly putting out fires in your marriage or in your significant other relationship or in your parenting, that's actually going that's going to have a trickle down effect into those relationships. So that's probably [00:27:30] not an area where you want to be reacting a lot. You want to have rhythms and habits and cultivate, um, an ecosystem in your home or in your relationships that is functional. Now, there's a lot of people who thrive, say, in retail, because you constantly have a new customer coming in the door, you can attend to their needs, help them pick out the right thing that they need. That is very similarly the same. Putting out fires because new situation, [00:28:00] new parameters. I get to handle it. They walk out the door, I tidy it up with a bow and now I get my next customer.

Lynnette Oss Connell: We kind of do that when we do client work too. We pick up a file, we do the thing, we set it away. Also, life is always going to have fires. And so if we can reduce where it's healthy, where the fires are, that's going to help your total stress load across all areas of life. So that's where I just went in coaching we work on? Where is it healthy for you to express the [00:28:30] reactivity and where does that? Where does that reactivity create give a gift to my world. So like in my I like to use the retail example just because we can we've all kind of identify that with that. Um, because we've all been in a position where we've gone into a store and we have a really helpful salesperson. Right. That is a gift to you as a customer to have a salesperson who's attentive and reactive. So where in your life, where in your work is, if that's something you thrive off of, where can you give that as a gift versus a [00:29:00] liability like to your family, where there may be like a chaos cloud?

Questian Telka: That's really insightful. And I think that makes a lot of sense. So you're focusing on those, being able to still have that in your life and not have it burn you out by making sure that you are not putting out fires in situations that would really cause more stress, right? Rather than actually kind of giving you what you're looking for from being someone that functions at their best in that way. So [00:29:30] I really want to ask you how, you know, we're we have a podcast called She Counts. It's all all for the ladies. Well, I mean, and our advocates. Right. How does burn up show burnout? How does burnout show up differently for women, especially when, um, we are in a heavy caregiving or people pleasing profession like accounting.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Women and men respond to stress differently, not just because of our social situations, [00:30:00] but also just because of our biology. Um, there are some great resources out there on a neuroscience, um, level. Um, really quick. This book in particular, I highly recommend it's by the Nagoski sisters, and it's written about women's experience in burnout specifically.

Nancy McClelland : And what's it called?

Questian Telka: Yeah, it's.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Burnout.

Nancy McClelland : Burnout, burnout. The secret to unlocking the stress cycle. All right.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So it is a real thing that that women and men respond [00:30:30] to stress differently. And this isn't the only book about women's stress. This is just a recent publication that I would recommend as a resource. Women tend to be our brains and our stress response have more. We have more estrogen and our stress response tends to be dominated by oxytocin. Um, men tend to be dominated by testosterone and have higher cortisol reactivity. What this all means is that women in stress tend to buckle down, to hunker down [00:31:00] on, tend, and befriend. So we feel threatened. And so we nurture. Men feel threatened, and they tend to then be dominated by fight and flight, which are the traditional stress responses, like when we think of stress, it's like, oh, it's fight or flight. Men tend to get mad, or they tend to get pragmatic and practical. We're going to we're going to handle it. Women tend to handle it by nurturing. Now, this is not gender exclusive. This is not. We're in one camp or the other. But if we look at how we're built [00:31:30] back in our ancestral ages, if there was a threat to the. To the camp, if we're all in a tribal camp and there's a threat, whether it's an invading army or whether it's bears, the men are going to fight, we're going to protect, we're going to go out there and we're going to we're going to attack the thing, and women are going to tend to say, where are the kids? We're going to we're going to we're going to bring us all together. We're safety [00:32:00] in numbers. We're going to we're going to protect. Because of this, you tend to see when men are stressed, right? Like it comes out in a very forceful way. Women, we don't tend to get forceful or demonstrative in our stress until like several more notches down the burnout journey, we instead internalize.

Nancy McClelland : You are bringing me. I have a question. Okay, sure. All right. As you [00:32:30] can tell, this might be resonating. I'm not sure. Um, but does this have anything to do with the fact that so many of my extremely, uh, high performing female friends have been diagnosed with anxiety and depression and panic disorders? Is this is the fact that we're not expressing this? Yeah. Causing some of that?

Lynnette Oss Connell: Well, I'm not a clinician, so I can't say that it's it's causing [00:33:00] it. But what I will say is that the research shows that those are all symptoms of burnout. So not necessarily a 1 to 1, but it is really common for women to be diagnosed with anxiety, depression and panic disorders. And it makes sense because we're internalizing a lot of our stress. Us and that does damage to our bodies.

Questian Telka: So that's something that we should exploring. Exploring. That's what I was going to ask.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah.

Questian Telka: Something to keep in mind.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Not that it's not depression, [00:33:30] anxiety or panic disorder, but whether you could be fundamentally and deeply supported by things like an energy audit, restructuring your life. I know for myself, I when I got into deep, deep burnout, when my father passed away, I was diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety. And so I took some medication for a period of time, and it was immensely helpful for me. But [00:34:00] when I got, you know, some degrees removed from my grief and I explored with my doctor, we're getting really personal here. But I explored with my doctor whether it was right for me to transition off of that assist. Once I transitioned off of it, I realized, oh my gosh, my life itself is unsustainable. The only way that I was going to keep functioning at this level was with a medication. And I had to do some really deep soul searching around what is serving me and what is not. And [00:34:30] in my total arsenal of assists, which includes community, it includes my doctor. It includes any specialists that you're seeing, my therapist. Like when we look at all these tools that we're given, it is a deeply personal exploration and decision for what the combination is that's going to help you show up your best in the most sustainable way. That lets you continue to give the way you're trying to to your family, [00:35:00] your community in a way that sustainably serves yourself. Feeding the caretaker so that you can caretake.

Nancy McClelland : Oh my gosh, Lynette, I, I love this so much. This is so helpful. Um, all of this, it's absolutely gold. Cold. It is begging the question in my mind, however, what are some of those subtle red flags of burnout? Yeah, and this is related. One of the things again, when I've when I've seen [00:35:30] you in, um, public speaking, I hope this is something that you'll bring up at your bridging the gap. Um, I know you're on a panel with question actually bridging the gap, which I'm so excited. Um, what? You talk a lot. And something I think distinguishes you from other folks I've heard on the topic. You talk a lot about prevention versus recovery. Um, I feel like learning a little bit more about what these subtle red flags of burnout are that women sometimes dismiss as normal. That [00:36:00] is getting us to a point where we're not able to prevent it because we cannot see it happening. And then that takes us to the place where recovery is really our our only option. So let's talk about those subtle red flags. And and you can lead us through how that's related to this distinction?

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah. Um, first let's talk about a helpful analogy for prevention versus recovery is simply the fact that when you think of an athlete or if you're training, if you're a runner, any [00:36:30] kind of athlete is going to have injury prevention. That includes stretching before exercise. It includes making sure you have a healthy diet to make sure all your tissues are in optimal performance shape, like there are all these things we do for prevention so that when we do the exercise, we're not going to create injury. However, even with the best prevention techniques, you can still get injured. And so regardless of what your prevention was, you're going to end up in a place eventually where you need to recover. That includes, you know, ice [00:37:00] compression, elevation and resting. Burnout is kind of is the same way. We get to a point where we need to recover and there's no shame in it, I think I. One thing I want for everybody is to realize, when you get to a point where you say, oh, shoot, I've arrived at a place where that is no longer sustainable, it can be very tempting to be filled with shame.

Questian Telka: Well, and part of the reason that we're filled with shame is because as a as a culture and a [00:37:30] society and as a profession, we idealize this idea of like, oh, what did you do? And it's like, oh, I worked, I worked all seven days this week. I, you know, it's like become this. Yes. This bragging point for so many people to say. So it's like when you get to that point where you are burnt out, there's the shame comes from this place of having worked in a, in a society and a culture and in a profession that that looks at [00:38:00] how much work you do as a, as something to be proud of.

Nancy McClelland : It's like taking away your badge of honor. Right? Right.

Questian Telka: Yeah. Yeah.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Well, the irony there, from what you just said Is. So we talk about shame. Obviously the Brene Brown is the shame researcher. Shame is the feeling of unworthiness. And so what's fascinating about this. Arriving at a point where you realize you're burnt out is you like [00:38:30] question just said you've done all the things. I've worked all the work. I thought I was earning rest, but then your body goes, yes, ma'am, you get rest, but it's because you've crashed. Yeah. Don't let don't let's not let's not get there. All right. Nancy, you wanted some subtle red flags that burnout is happening. So in burnout research back in the 70s and 80s, some [00:39:00] researchers, Freudenberger and Maslach did a categorized and analyzed what burnout looks like. And they came up with three primary characteristics. These are going to manifest differently for each person, but I feel like knowing these is fundamentally helpful. The first one is emotional exhaustion. The second one is depersonalization. And the third one is lack of accomplishment. I'll say them again in case you're like Nancy [00:39:30] and you're taking notes. Emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, and lack of accomplishment.

Questian Telka: So can you explain what you mean by depersonalization?

Lynnette Oss Connell: Absolutely. This is when something that you identified with or you you, um, resonate with no longer matters to you. So, for example, if you're in a profession, well, we're all accountants, so we're serving our clients and say there's a kind of work you've always loved doing. And you wake up one morning, you go, wait, I haven't actually [00:40:00] wanted to do that for several weeks. And not only do I not want to do it, I have a rotten attitude about it. If you have enough self-awareness to go wait. I used to love this kind of engagement. Meant this was. This was like the thing that gave me life. And now I'm resentful. I don't want to do it. That's depersonalization. And so when when there's something you cared about that you're starting to back off of, get resentful. That is a huge red flag. That is a sign that you're running. [00:40:30] You're starting to run on fumes. Now, maybe you've evolved. I think a lot of us think, oh, I just no longer like that. I like something else. And, you know, maybe there's some truth to that. But don't ignore that red flag. Kind of. You owe it to yourself to unpack. That lack of accomplishment is feeling like no matter how hard you work, you're not getting anywhere. I felt a lot of this. It's like no matter how much I got done off my to do list, I could be hugely efficient for hours on end and leave the day [00:41:00] and be like, darn it. Like, I, I feel like I didn't get ahead. I feel like I added 20 more things to my to do list.

Questian Telka: And didn't get through enough of them that you thought you wanted to or needed to. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland : All right. I that this is this is resonating a little bit too comfortably for me.

Questian Telka: Me too. Agree. So?

Nancy McClelland : So what? Let's talk about what can we do about it? We've got some warning signs. Um, again, you've got prevention and you've got recovery. [00:41:30] What can we do to prevent.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah. So we've touched on some of them already. Um, one that I dumped in there several times was community. Right. We need people who, without question, will support us when we need it. That we can we can call. So just give yourself a few moments to reflect who those people are. And if you see a hole in your life where in a particular area of your life, you don't feel like you've got to go to person [00:42:00] or maybe work on cultivating that relationship? I think most of us, once we start having these candid conversations, if I was to come to somebody and say, you know, I don't feel very supported here. I feel like you are an amazing person. Can we support one another? Um, I think most of us at this, at this point in, in society, like especially after Covid, we know so much how much these kinds of relationships make a huge difference. So huge.

Questian Telka: Difference.

Lynnette Oss Connell: And not just surface level, but like some really deep relationships. Um, [00:42:30] the other thing you can do, like I said, is an energy audit. Make sure that within your roles you're balanced. And then, um, one tip I do not want to overlook that we don't need to get into too deeply, but they get into a lot in this book, both prevention and recovery is the importance of exercise on your body. When you think about our ancestors, they got threatened by an invading army or a bear. What do you do? You fight or flight or. And instead of hunkering down and surviving, [00:43:00] we need to fight off the bear. We need to fight off the invading army. And so when you let your body go through this Exercise you're running even if you're not running for exercise. But your body's using those big muscles, and it's metabolizing the adrenaline and the stress hormones that cortisol you're working it through.

Nancy McClelland : This can actually be extremely helpful, not just for anxiety, but it can also be very helpful for nervousness because adrenaline [00:43:30] is a limited it's a chemical that runs out and your body has to produce more. So one of the things my therapist tells me is if you are, if you are anxious, if you are nervous, if you've if you're having trouble sleeping, go out there, get a bunch of exercise because you're using up that adrenaline and then there's nothing left. Your body takes a while to replenish it, so that's great. Yes, there is no there is no magic pill for depression and anxiety. But if there were, it would be exercise.

Questian Telka: Yeah, [00:44:00] I absolutely agree that the endorphins are incredible.

Nancy McClelland : Now, that doesn't mean I do it. That doesn't mean I follow my own advice, but I do know how important it is.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So I just want to say about the exercise. Exercise is not going to rebalance your life. It's not going to create systems or community. But what it will do is put your body in a state where you feel that the adrenaline is used up and you can now respond, make a new plan and [00:44:30] be equipped to make it change. So I just I do not want to underestimate or the exercise is so important.

Questian Telka: It's very important. So tell us what else or what can our listeners do now to really start healing and building resilience as well.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So resilience is tricky. I think in our minds we think that we're returning back to ground zero, that that would be resilient, would be that after an event, I go back [00:45:00] to what I was, and I really encourage people to see the journey through an event. As the as the goal. So we start out base level before whatever the event is stressful season or family emergency, what have you. We get through. It changed. We don't always end up back where we were before.

Questian Telka: I would say we rarely end up back to where we were before, but.

Lynnette Oss Connell: We try so hard to try. Yeah, we try so [00:45:30] hard to. Just like I want to get back to normal or I used to be so good at this or I, you know, the nostalgia kind of kicks in a little bit. Instead of embracing who you are and what your life looks like in this season. It doesn't mean blind acceptance. And so one thing that's hugely beneficial is to create a meditative or quiet practice. It could be a walk in the morning, could be formal meditation, but letting your mind settle in with yourself and listen to [00:46:00] your body and your intuition is not really a magic pill. But what it will do is, is retrain you to not be on the hamster wheel constantly so that you can start to be aware of what's serving you, what's not serving you. And there's a lot of enlightenment that will come just from a daily practice of some quiet at the end of the day. Burnout, prevention and recovery are different for everyone because your unique biochemical [00:46:30] makeup, your unique life circumstances is going to to make it different.

Nancy McClelland : But I love what you're saying. When you're you're it sounds like you're debunking the concept that burnout is, is somehow this destination you arrive at, when in fact, it's a journey. And so we can start healthy stress management prevention techniques now. Um, we can prepare for the inevitable time when life starts laughing on us. Uh, we have some techniques [00:47:00] for recovery, but all of these things when we pull them together, all of it's a journey and we're going to go through what we're experiencing. We're going to come out changed on the other side, hopefully changed for the better.

Lynnette Oss Connell: And I think some people, it's tempting to think, I know for me this was true, that I can't pay that close attention to what I need, because if I was to do the thing that I know in my gut, I need to do for my own health, that would prevent [00:47:30] me from meeting my goals.

Questian Telka: Correct. I was that was the question I was going to ask you actually, is like, what do you say to people who that's what they're in their mind. They're saying, right. Like, I don't have time to not prevent burnout. Like I don't have time to do the exercise or do the, you know, so yes, please go on. Because that was definitely something in my mind that I know there's somebody out there. That's what they're thinking.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Absolutely. I mean, there's a few things to say to that. One is maybe that's actually not the right goal for you. If you can't reach that goal sustainably, [00:48:00] that's probably not a good fit for you. And we can take so much joy from that, because when we shift your goal to something that you can do sustainably, you are going to be so much more successful at that because you're showing up in your healthiest state with the most genuinely energized. I think we confuse this adrenaline state for true energy through to life fueling.

Questian Telka: And you can actually accomplish the goal. And so when you accomplish the goal, [00:48:30] that's positive reinforcement as well, right. So and not getting burnt out in the process. Yep.

Nancy McClelland : And I want to go back to what you were saying about community earlier because you keep coming back to that, um, one of the, one of the things I try to remind myself is that burnout thrives in isolation. And so one of the things one of the goals of this podcast is to help people remember that they are not alone. And Lynette, you told [00:49:00] me something that was extremely helpful to me. A couple of weeks ago about giving people credit, um, would you mind sharing with us? I know this is very personal, but would you mind sharing with us the what happened when your son was in the hospital, and how you learned about giving people credit?

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah. So several years ago now, like many years ago, my son was pretty small and he had a medical emergency. Um, that was highly traumatic for me. But in [00:49:30] the moment when we're handling a crisis, we are kind of on autopilot. We're just we're there's good neuroscience reasons for why our brain just rallies. And so I'm at the hospital, and we were overnight emergency surgery. And I am in my mind thinking tomorrow is Monday or Tuesday. I don't know. I'd probably be in the hospital for 48 hours at that point, but whatever day it was, I needed to check in with my client. I had an on site regular that I would show up, um, [00:50:00] one two days a week. So it's like 8 a.m.. I've been up all night in the hospital, and I excuse myself from the hospital room to go out to the car because I needed to let them know I wasn't going to make it in that day. And so I wasn't going to overshare. I wasn't going to say what I was doing necessarily. I was just going to kind of tell them I wasn't coming.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Well, I get on the phone with him and he's a father, and he's like, well, what's really going on? Like he was really pushing me like, why aren't you like, [00:50:30] why aren't you showing up? And I started to get kind of like prickly, like, oh shoot, I'm going to get in trouble. And wow, I told him what was up. My son was in the hospital. I'd been up all night or all weekend. And he said to me, get off the phone right now. He goes, and don't, I don't want to hear from you for a week. And I was so surprised that that was his response, because I was living in this tunnel where I was holding myself to these impossibly [00:51:00] high standards that even this person who was not related to me, who just by being a human, by being somebody with with feelings, was like, girl, get off your hamster wheel. He goes, don't even call me. He was, get off the phone. Why did you even call me? He was like, upset at me for even leaving the hospital room.

Nancy McClelland : Well, and partially because it means that you didn't. You didn't give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, right? Like you, [00:51:30] you didn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he was a caring and empathetic human being. And so, yes, of course, he far surpassed your expectations because your expectations are like lying there on the floor. And, you know, we can raise that bar. Question was just telling me yesterday, um, because I was I'm very nervous because I have to get in touch with, um, one of the conferences that I'll be speaking at. I'm going to be I'm going to be asking for a second, um, extension [00:52:00] for my slides because of everything that's going on with my mom right now.

Questian Telka: Because life is happening.

Nancy McClelland : Because life is happening. And question was just like Nancy, give them credit. Like let them have an opportunity to help you. It's it's an act of respect to them.

Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We I mean this was my a very similar I had a very similar experience and I, and I told Nancy that yesterday when my son was in the hospital last year. It [00:52:30] was very much the same. I went through that process in my mind, and I was scared to tell my clients. And when I shared with them what was going on, they showed up as human beings and they reacted very much the same way and said, you know, do what you need to do. Like this is not critical. We will get by. Take care of your family. And, um, you know, and that did teach me to to give people the benefit of the doubt and to give them credit and to recognize that like they they will your community will show [00:53:00] up for you, whether that's your clients, your friends, your family, like they they are such an important piece because they really, really are what helps us get through those tough times, whether it's having life, things like what Nancy is having or your son or my son or, you know, an immense amount of burnout for a variety of different reasons.

Nancy McClelland : And to that point, um, something that Lynette was saying earlier, we have to take [00:53:30] the time to foster and invest in those relationships when life isn't lifing all over us so that it's they're there for us when we need them. Um, I mean, a bubble bath is great, but it's not going to fix the underlying issue. Um, Lynette, one of the things I loved about one of the the talks you gave was that any approach that relies 100% on the person who's already burned out is going to be challenging. And [00:54:00] so re reframing it so that we are fostering those relationships. We're giving ourselves permission to reach out and ask for help. Um, and you had said something also about, you know, being really intentional about who might be able to fill which need or role in your life.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Um.

Nancy McClelland : So that, you know, you have that plan, you know, who to turn to when life starts laughing all over you.

Lynnette Oss Connell: So often [00:54:30] we get to a hospital situation or a crisis, whatever that crisis situation looks like for us, and people shockingly surprise us right by with their humanity. And think of how much grief we would have spared ourselves if we didn't wait until the crisis moment to to just cultivate that kind of connection. Now, I'm not saying we need to like, be besties with everyone at all. But there is appropriate boundaries [00:55:00] in relationships. But keeping in mind who can who can assist in which categories is really important. And something Nancy and I have talked about in the past too, is, um, having some scripts or mantras that you can share with people. So for example, saying, you know, my son was in the hospital last week, um, we're struggling through it. I'm going to need a little bit of time before I can talk about it. Um, when I'm ready to talk. Would that be something you'd be willing to talk about? So I. Because I had another medical emergency with my daughter many [00:55:30] years later, where I had learned from my first experience with my son how to approach the second experience with my daughter, and learning how to proactively inform people of where I was struggling and seeing their reaction. I was able to kind of litmus test who were my people based on me giving them a it was vulnerable but controlled vulnerability of I'm going to share a little bit with you, see how you respond. And now I kind of have a soft sense of of who my who my community really is, who I can go to and who has the capacity [00:56:00] for it. Because sometimes the most compassionate people are over givers just like us. And so, um, that's why in the prevention stage of burnout, getting getting a feel for who who your people are when you get into crisis won't be so crisis y.

Nancy McClelland : Yeah.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Yeah, it'll be an opportunity to really be cared for, like we said, kind of at the top of the set, um, letting other people caretake you.

Questian Telka: Well, we're so grateful to have had you on today. [00:56:30] Like, this has been such an insightful conversation. Um, I have a lot of my own takeaways and a lot of work to do myself. And we should probably tell everybody where they can find you, right? So, um, we can you can find Lynette's website at burnout basthi.com. And again, she's going to be speaking at Bridging the Gap. We're going to be on a panel together, and we're going to be talking about resilience and how building it in your personal [00:57:00] and business life, how it's important, why it's important, and how to do that and question who else.

Nancy McClelland : Who else is on that panel. Am I remembering that Shirley Cox is also.

Questian Telka: Shirley and Will Lopez?

Nancy McClelland : Okay, great. So Shirley Cox, Will Lopez, Lynette O'Connell and question Telka. Fantastic. I'm going to Bridging the Gap. I'm excited about this panel.

Lynnette Oss Connell: I'm everyone go to bridging the gap.

Nancy McClelland : Everyone should go to. That's right I agree. [00:57:30]

Questian Telka: Um so also please follow her LinkedIn and her Instagram. And she has a lot of, um, great short form video clips on, on her Instagram. So I would definitely recommend that. It's an amazing resource. Um, super fun.

Nancy McClelland : And we would like to ask listeners to follow our She Accounts podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on this conversation, specifically by sharing under the [00:58:00] episode, what does burnout look like to you in yourself, your team, or your colleagues? We know this is very personal and we want to hear what those what those warning signs look like. And we also want to hear about, okay, you've hit the wall and it's time for recovery. What does that look like?

Lynnette Oss Connell: I really encourage people to please participate in the conversation too, because it's so personal. Sometimes we don't recognize symptoms in ourselves until we see someone else [00:58:30] testify to their experience. So when we share these experiences, it helps one another immensely.

Questian Telka: That's so true. I absolutely agree. That's why we really want people to be involved in all of the all of these conversations. And that goes back to our episode about mentorship is, you know, having those relationships, having those conversations really help us see, see things in our in our life and in our situations [00:59:00] and scenarios differently. So before we sign off, I want to leave everyone with a quote by Brene Brown. And that is, if you don't want to burn out, stop living like you're on fire.

Nancy McClelland : Okay, now hold on a second. Personally, I don't like this quote because I love living like I. I'm on fire. So I love I love the concept here. And I feel like this goes back to what Lynette was saying about the [00:59:30] more passionate we are about something, the more likely we are to get ourselves into burnout. So, Brittney, stop looking into my soul. This is very.

Questian Telka: Disturbing.

Nancy McClelland : Thank you all for being here with us on She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.

Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home with you. Well, that's exactly why we're doing this.

Nancy McClelland : So you feel seen and heard and never alone.

Questian Telka: Remember that you can get [01:00:00] CPE credit for listening at earmarks. So links to that, and any other resource that we mentioned in the show will be in the show notes.

Nancy McClelland : And please subscribe and leave us a review. Because when you leave a review, it helps other people with interests like yours. Find the podcast and share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it.

Questian Telka: Too many thanks again to our amazing guests! Lynette O'Connell. [01:00:30] We're so glad that you could join us today and we'll see everyone again in two weeks.

Lynnette Oss Connell: Bye, everyone.

Questian Telka: Bye.

Nancy McClelland : Thank you for being here.