Do It Anyway

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts. The Real Talk podcast for Women in accounting, where your hosts Questian Telka.

Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.

Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges and unspoken truths of life in this profession.

Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're [00:00:30] not. And you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.

Questian Telka: A special thank you to our sponsors, Forwardly Ignition and Keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Today's episode is called Do It anyway.

Nancy McClelland: Today we're diving into courage. The fears that hold us back. The ones we face head [00:01:00] on and the ways we find courage to overcome them.

Questian Telka: As you all know, if you've been listening before, we love launching each episode with a story. And Nancy, yours was the one that gave us the title for this episode. And it was really exciting to me to realize that we both had stories with the phrase do it anyway that were related to fear and courage.

Nancy McClelland: Well, I am so excited [00:01:30] to share my story. But before I do, um, question. Do you remember when we recorded the how to Make Business Happen When Life Happens episode?

Questian Telka: Of course I do. How can I forget?

Nancy McClelland: Well, guess where I am right now.

Questian Telka: Where are you?

Nancy McClelland: I am in my mother's apartment in Indianapolis because she has Alzheimer's. And she had an episode of vascular episode and went into the hospital and then into [00:02:00] rehab, and they have recently determined that she's not going to be able to come back home. So in the middle of everything I have going on right now, my husband and I took the train down to Indianapolis, and we're spending a couple of weeks cleaning out her apartment for the last time. So just to just to bring it back around to the fact that we just recorded that episode, and then life happened all over me. All over. You left all over the place? Yes. [00:02:30] So I want to I wanted to bring that up because I want people to know, like, these aren't just podcast episodes that are some kind of script or some kind of, um, you know, like a prescription or or or preaching or anything like that. These are real humans with real lives, and it's happening to us too. If you ever feel alone, go back and [00:03:00] listen to one of these and know that we're there in the room with you. We're giving you a hug and we're nodding and saying, oh yeah, you know, something like that happened to me once.

Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And it is, you know, very interesting that we just recorded that episode. And like you said, life is literally happening to you at this exact moment. Yeah. So.

Nancy McClelland: Exactly. Well, let's get back to the topic. Um, because I do have a story. I have a story that [00:03:30] is was really, I want to say formative, except it's interesting because it happened to me when I, when I was turning 40 years old. So I don't mean formative like childhood, just formative in terms of really important. And it's it's helped sort of define everything that's happened to me since then. Um, as many listeners know, my company is named The Dancing Accountant because I'm actually a dancer and I do 1960s style go go dancing. That's my favorite kind. So that's like what, the tall white boots. Then [00:04:00] Nancy Sinatra, These Boots are made for walkin kind of stuff. And, um, when I first started dancing. So I wanted to do this my whole life, and, uh, I didn't have the courage. It was. I was too scared. And, um, when I was turning 40, I decided, okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm finally gonna do it. And I, um, took lessons for a few months, and then I was invited to join the performing troupe of the Janes, which is a 1960s go go [00:04:30] style, uh, troupe in Chicago. And, oh, let me tell you, I was terrified because not only was this a new thing to me to be performing, dancing on stage with a style of dance that I had never studied before, but I was also doing it in like, short fringe dresses.

Nancy McClelland: And I was turning 40 years old and I just, oh, I was terrified about what people were going to think like that. I didn't deserve being up there on stage or that I was too old. And [00:05:00] who did I think I was, you know, hauling my my 40 year old heiny across the stage and wiggling and shaking it and all of that kind of stuff. I was just I was terrified. And for that first performance in particular, honestly, I thought it was going to pee myself. I really, really did. And there was one woman in the troupe named Laurel. Um, we call her Lolo, and she was just amazing to me. She was so inspiring because [00:05:30] she just oh my gosh, she got up there and she she was the same age as I am. And she just got up there and she did her thing, and it's like she didn't care what people thought at all. She was just doing it because she wanted to do it right. And so I said to her, wow, I want to be like you. I wish I could be. You're just completely fearless. And she said, oh no, no, no, no, no, Nancy, I'm just as scared as the next person. [00:06:00] The difference is that I do it anyway.

Questian Telka: Yep. I love that.

Nancy McClelland: As I say those words out loud, I can feel that the goosebumps on my arms and my legs, it's become a mantra to me. And so now, really, ever since letting that soak in, I see fear as something I've earned. And courage is the thing that makes me strong, not being fearless.

Questian Telka: I [00:06:30] agree with you. Yeah, it's amazing I. It's funny, when you were as you were telling this story, it actually made me think of a story that, um, was somewhat similar. I suppose it's not. Not in the sense of do it anyway, which I'll save that story for a little while later. But when do you remember that? I told you I took an improv class? Yes.

Nancy McClelland: I couldn't believe it. Because when you and I worked together, when you were a contractor for the dancing accountant, [00:07:00] you were so. You were so afraid of everything. And I kept having to encourage you and convince you of your self-worth. And so then. Then you told me you were going back to school, and then you told me you're taking an improv class, and then you told me that you were going to be presenting. I was just like, what happened? This is amazing.

Questian Telka: I know, I well, I signed up for the improv class because I was like, okay, to be honest, I was like, this does not actually sound fun to me. It kind of sounds like my worst nightmare. And that [00:07:30] was part of the reason I did it, because I was like, I need to do something. I want to put myself out there. This is something I'm terrified of because I, I mean, it's just terrifying. Like, I don't feel like I'm funny. And my ex-husband used to always tell me that I wasn't funny, but that's a whole nother story. I think he's wrong. Maybe he just didn't have the greatest sense of humor.

Nancy McClelland: Well, I.

Questian Telka: Think you're.

Nancy McClelland: Hilarious.

Questian Telka: But. So. Well, I will say that when I took the improv class, I was hoping that it would help [00:08:00] make me funny, but it. I don't think it it did. I think what it actually did instead, though, was made me not scared at all to like, fly my freak flag.

Nancy McClelland: I guess so, yeah.

Questian Telka: Which is kind of like touching on an episode that we are going to have at some point later. But I got to the point and they told me when I was going into this class, by the time it's over, I know, you know, it's really scary now, but by the time it's over, once you are done, you [00:08:30] will not be scared to be a freak in in public anymore. And yeah, I can't say that that's entirely true, but I definitely, to your point of getting on the stage and dancing and being in your 40s, I don't know if it's something that happens to women when they get to 40, but I just don't care anymore. I was with a friend seeing a DJ that I love in a swimsuit over.

Nancy McClelland: The DJ was in the swimsuit or you were.

Questian Telka: I [00:09:00] was, and everybody.

Nancy McClelland: Else.

Questian Telka: Seeing a DJ in a swimsuit. That's true. Yeah, that would have been interesting. Um, but so.

Nancy McClelland: I.

Questian Telka: Mean.

Nancy McClelland: I really I think that you're bringing up the this, this difference of, like, you know, courage versus fearlessness, right? Like, I wish sometimes doing the hard thing actually will make us less fearful. But sometimes there is no getting around that fear. And it's about finding the courage inside to.

Questian Telka: Do it anyway.

Nancy McClelland: Yes, to do it anyway. [00:09:30] I, I personally wish that we could delete the phrase don't be afraid from our lexicons. I feel like, and this is my personal opinion. I don't know if you agree or not, but that phrase teaches the wrong lesson in my opinion, because I would love for the lesson that we're teaching each other and we're teaching our children is not to not be afraid, because being afraid is an extremely natural, very human [00:10:00] way to be. And it's, um, you know, it's autonomic, right? Like our bodies do this for us as a way to keep us safe. And so by saying, don't be afraid, we're like, oh, yeah, don't be afraid. Pay no attention whatsoever to all of these hormones that are coursing through you, and these chemicals that are trying to get you to run from the tiger or whatever. Well, it's.

Questian Telka: Impossible. It's impossible. I mean, I've never met someone that [00:10:30] doesn't have fear and doesn't get afraid. Like, I, I don't even know if that's possible. Some of us are better hiding it, better at hiding it than others. But, um, fearlessness is the absence of fear. And that's just completely unrealistic.

Nancy McClelland: I totally agree. Courage. However, by contrast, how would you define that?

Questian Telka: I would say that courage is accepting that you feel the fear [00:11:00] and acting despite being fearful anyway, so doing it anyway.

Nancy McClelland: Doing it anyway. Like the title? Yeah, I, I believe that fear can often be a signal that you're doing something meaningful. Not that not that something is wrong necessarily, but that you're, you know, that your nerves may cause you to exhibit the same physiological reactions [00:11:30] of excitement and nervousness. And I know that's one of the things that Misty Mejia talks about in Theater of Public Speaking, um, about. And it's something that Hector Garcia and Carlos Garcia talk about at reframe, Frame, where you take the concept and you reinterpret the same exact thing. So if your palms are sweaty, right? If you're shaking, if you're having trouble sleeping, you know that if you if you have to go to the bathroom, like every [00:12:00] three minutes, like I do when I get nervous, those are the same physiological reactions of excitement, of course. And so if you can reframe it, if you can go, oh, wait a minute, that's not me being terrified. That's me being so excited about this thing that I get to do. I mean, we literally cannot our bodies physiologically, we literally cannot tell the difference between.

Questian Telka: Excitement.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, exactly. [00:12:30] We have to consciously reframe it in order to get through it.

Questian Telka: Well, and the fear often comes from situations and scenarios that are unfamiliar to us, things that we have not Experienced or done, and oftentimes in order to help the fear go away. Continuing to do the face that fear and repeatedly do it.

Nancy McClelland: Actually lean into it.

Questian Telka: Lean into it.

Nancy McClelland: Exercise that muscle. Right? [00:13:00]

Questian Telka: Exactly, exactly.

Nancy McClelland: All right. Well, I want to know I've got we've got a little list of questions here. And we're going to ask each other for some examples just so our, our audience feels like, okay, yes, I, they've been through it and that resonates with me. Give me an example of a time you were not fearless and you chose courage to get through it.

Questian Telka: Uh, pretty much every time I get in front of a microphone, but specifically [00:13:30] and you're you're part of this story as well. But I spoke at Intuit Connect for the first time last October. And this has been a huge goal of mine for a long time. Right. So this is something that my why was it was very important to me. I really wanted to speak at Intuit Connect. And so they accepted a submission. And probably a couple weeks [00:14:00] before, I was looking to see what room they had me in and then was like, okay, it looks like I'm going to be in a room for about 80 people. And I was like, I can manage that. I've done webinars in front of 500 people and you can't see everyone. But I was like, this is this is manageable. And then I would say like 3 or 4 days before the actual conference.

Nancy McClelland: I know where this story is going because I remember sending you that text. I texted you and said, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Oh [00:14:30] my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. They moved both of our sessions from a room of approximately 80.

Questian Telka: 80.

Nancy McClelland: 80, 80 to a room of.

Questian Telka: 500 500 people, 500 chairs. I full panic, full panic, like from 0 to 11. And and I think I stayed there until after my presentation was over. So a good I [00:15:00] feel like I missed half the conference because I was just so scared and terrified, and it was literally one of the best things that I have ever done. Um, why why.

Nancy McClelland: Was it so great? Why was facing your fear in that particular moment? Because I know it's different for each of our experiences in life. But why was sitting there in that discomfort, in that terror and then doing the thing? Why was that so meaningful? Just because you [00:15:30] accomplished the goal or was there something bigger?

Questian Telka: Well, I accomplished the goal, and I actually loved it. And my favorite part was engaging with the people in the audience. So I was always most terrified. What if someone asks me a question and I can't answer it, you know? And they were asking questions, and sometimes I couldn't answer it. And, you know, it was fine to just say, we can come back to that later or I'll get in touch with me later. But I think the reason that it was so amazing was [00:16:00] because once it was done, I thought to myself, if I did that, I can do anything. There's nothing more terrifying to me than standing up in front of a room of 500 people. And so now I'm like, okay. And I just did it.

Nancy McClelland: So yeah. Yeah. Oh that's fantastic. So it's it's to me, that sounds like you're looking at your fear as a message, like you're being challenged. Can [00:16:30] you can you step up to this challenge? Can you keep going? Can you take that leap?

Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Well, I we've got so many different kinds of fears. Uh, lots of things to illustrate. You know, times where you've chosen courage over comfort. Um, I want to make sure we hear your do it anyway story. Um, but in addition to that, we also have your podcast story, right? [00:17:00]

Questian Telka: Like, yeah, of.

Nancy McClelland: Course we we fear looks very different for different people no matter what your fear is. I want listeners to rest assured you are not alone. Someone else has been scared of the same thing before, and they lived through it. And you will too. So we both have anxiety about this, this very project that we're doing right this second as we speak. Right? Yeah. But we have anxiety over it for different reasons. What's your what's [00:17:30] your thought?

Questian Telka: I get scared to be vulnerable. And when I share my stories, I am scared of not being judged or not being liked based on whatever it is that I'm sharing. And that's that's where I think the fear comes from for me. Or like, why? Why would we listen to you? You know, so that's what about you? Why? Why wouldn't we [00:18:00] started the podcast? Were you scared?

Nancy McClelland: So for me, um, I actually am not. Being vulnerable is not something that scares me a lot. Uh, public speaking is not something that scares me a lot. I feel like I have a a healthy, uh, healthy enthusiasm and excitement over it, but it's not. I don't feel scared. I've. I've never been one of those people who, um, you know, for whom public speaking is [00:18:30] like, oh, the worst thing ever. I did lots of theater when I was younger, and I always enjoyed being on stage. Um, I get nervous, I get nervous singing and and performing, um, music and and dance. Uh, but not, I don't know, public speaking. Not as much. So for me, what I was really scared about in starting this podcast was, um, as you mentioned, being judged, but but being judged. What gives her the right? She's not an expert. She's [00:19:00] just some attention grabbing whatever. You know, I'm always super afraid about that one. Um, especially there's there's one woman that, um, I've known for a really long time who's also in our industry, who, uh, has been really critical of me, um, suggesting that I'm somehow insincere or attention grabbing. And it's been really painful for me because I know how sincere I am, and I know that I do what I do [00:19:30] because I want to help other people. Um, but I think that when you are a naturally loud person, as I am, um, both both my parents are extroverts. My brother's an extreme extrovert, um, and a DJ and a quite a personality. I mean, we all have that. And, uh, so I'm very sensitive of of that. And I was really nervous. Like, what happens if we release your exuberant.

Questian Telka: Exuberant. That's a that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing.

Nancy McClelland: It's a.

Questian Telka: Good thing.

Nancy McClelland: For the [00:20:00] people who like me. Right? It's a good thing.

Questian Telka: We're not.

Nancy McClelland: Everybody about flying your freak flag. You know, I've got my freak flag. And, um. And that's a big part of it. I'm a I'm a big nerd, and I'm wildly enthusiastic. I'm. My mom got me a t shirt that says relentlessly awesome on it, and but that's the good side of it, right? And we're not worried about the good side of it. We're worried about all of the people whose brains we can't read and whose opinions we can't predict. And we just wonder, [00:20:30] what did they think of me? And the more that you respect someone, I think the more worried, well, at least for me, the more worried I get about what they might think of me. So yeah, I was really terrified about that. Um, but I did not want that to prevent me from doing something that I felt was very important. So I did it anyway.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I, I know what you're saying. I have felt I feel that way too, because I mentioned it like being being liked. I don't know, I feel like it's much [00:21:00] more of a maybe men suffer from the same feeling, but I think it's something that happens to women often. I have that same fear. But I've also kind of started as I've gotten older to accept, you know, I can't control what people think of me, and I know that I'm not going to be everyone's everyone's not going to love me. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea. And and that's okay. It's like, I.

Nancy McClelland: Would really love to be everyone's cup of tea.

Questian Telka: Question I.

Nancy McClelland: Really would. Do you know that book [00:21:30] from? Um, from. It was from my childhood. Judy Blume had a book called, otherwise known as Sheila the Great. Have you heard of it?

Questian Telka: I have, I have not read it. No.

Nancy McClelland: Well, Sheila was the neighbor of, um, Peter in the fudge books, um, by Judy Blume. And then she eventually got a book of her own. And in her head, she kept up such a perfect facade, and everybody thought that she was fearless, when in fact, [00:22:00] she was really terrified about a bunch of things and was doing them anyway. And she thought she had everybody fooled. And she's very disappointed in the book to find out that she doesn't have everyone fooled. And so I read that was that was an important book for me growing up. Like, don't try to fake it, Nancy. People are going to see it anyway. So just be open and honest. Um, but I think especially as women in this profession, um, we are worried that that will make us seem Unprofessional. You know, you've talked about [00:22:30] the idea that we need to be perfect.

Questian Telka: And yes, I know sometimes you see this, you know, um, you see this description. It's like, oh, be professional, but be vulnerable. But do that, you know, of women, you hear those kind of, you know, the the idea.

Nancy McClelland: But also be.

Questian Telka: Be humble.

Nancy McClelland: Be.

Questian Telka: Humble and be. It's like all of these, you know, these things that have like such polarity. Right. Or it's kind of like a juxtaposition. Is that the right word. [00:23:00] Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Juxtaposition. Yeah.

Questian Telka: Yeah yeah. Juxtaposition. Thank you. Um, so it's yeah, it's really interesting because we're told to be those two things at the same time. Always. Right. So we're always worried. We're always concerned.

Nancy McClelland: Well, and.

Questian Telka: Nobody.

Nancy McClelland: Defined nobody defined the word professional for me at any point in my life. Nobody said this is what professional has [00:23:30] to look like, but but we've got this concept in our head that to be professional somehow means to not be human. To be professional means to to having no emotion. Yes. Having no. Well, oh, there's one being seen as emotional.

Questian Telka: Yeah. That's a big one for me that that's been a fear that I've had because I came from that Big Four environment and it's, it was very much like if you have an emotion, you need to step away. Like, do not be a do [00:24:00] not be emotional. And I disagree with that entirely because I feel like my emotions, my empathy, my compassion, um, my sensitivity. I used to feel like it was a when someone would say these things to me, that I was sensitive or emotional. I used to take it as an insult, but I think it's my strength at this point.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. Yeah. The ability to be in touch with, like who you are as a human being helps you be in touch with other people and who they are [00:24:30] as human beings, right?

Questian Telka: But we're scared of having those traits and then being seen as unprofessional, especially in certain environments.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, that can be terrifying. Well, let's let's talk more about some of the hard things that specifically that women in accounting face. You know, there's so many there's so many. Well, okay, so you mentioned having or being emotional.

Questian Telka: Yep. That's right. I think it's also when women [00:25:00] decide that they want to have a family. Oh, we.

Nancy McClelland: Were just talking about this in theater of public speaking. Uh, yes. Women was she was talking about how she feels guilty when she spends time on her work, but she really loves her work. But then the kids say, oh, you work too much. You know, they.

Questian Telka: Right. And specifically.

Nancy McClelland: Being pulled.

Questian Telka: She said, you know, she wants to be involved in these conferences. And and my response to her, which I'm going to say it out loud, hopefully, [00:25:30] you know, my my youngest or I'm sorry, my oldest son was like, can I listen to your podcast? And I was like, I mean, there's nothing there's nothing in there that you probably want to hear. But, you know, I'm I'm pretty open with him about this as well. And my response to her when she said, I have guilt. Does anybody else have guilt over going to these conferences? And I said I this is something that not a lot of women will probably say out loud, but I do not have guilt leaving my kids to go to conferences. [00:26:00]

Nancy McClelland: And that was something that I I'm not a mother, but I have like 600 nieces and nephews and, uh, I am always saying to their parents, your children need to see an example of you having a healthy, enthusiastic relationship with your work and with your hobbies and with your friends, because otherwise they are going to grow up thinking that their job as a parent is to serve their children and nothing else. [00:26:30] And that's simply not true. I think it's it's super, super, super important. And, and a lot of women chimed in saying whether they felt guilt or not, that this is important to do anyway, to just have the courage, even though you have the fear and you have the guilt, um, to push through and do it anyway because, you know, deciding to have a family and how that impacts your career like this is a decision you you already made in the past, and you're [00:27:00] doing both things because they're both important to you.

Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah.

Nancy McClelland: And to do it anyway.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I think it's definitely worth a do it anyway. And you know, we've so many things that we feel guilty about already. I mean honestly, when we're talking about this and having the conversation like she's saying, I feel guilt for this and I recognize that because I have it for other things. I feel guilty for not feeling guilty.

Nancy McClelland: Oh, that's meta question. That's [00:27:30] just next level I love that. You know, I do that a lot. I go meta with the with the, you know, uh, worrying about the therapy of the therapy of the therapy. Yeah. That's that's so good. All right. So another example I.

Questian Telka: Want to share. Yeah, that I was just having a conversation with a male colleague yesterday, and he was telling me, talking about hiring a female, and I was applauding him because it was like a leadership role. And [00:28:00] he was saying something about concern over her not working as many hours because of children. And I was basically like, well, men and women have families. We all have families, you need to accept that they're the value that they have is more than their time spent. Right. So, I mean, [00:28:30] I'll just leave it at that because I know that's not the topic today, but I thought it was important to share. It is definitely to share things that pop up.

Nancy McClelland: We are definitely going to have more episodes on that topic. So question, in addition to women who are working in an office where they might have to ask for a raise or promotion. What about people who are running their own firm? What kind of things for women? Women who are running their own firms? They get terrified about [00:29:00] a bunch of different things. Lots of things cause fear. Some examples.

Questian Telka: I would say setting boundaries so that you are not working 100% of your time or on your weekends. Um, so I think that that boundaries both with clients and leadership or in a leadership role.

Nancy McClelland: Mhm. Yep. And with your and with your team members as well. I mean that's, it's been really, really hard for me because I feel so much empathy for them. But [00:29:30] you know sometimes you just have deadlines and that's it's terrifying. Like that's something that just scares me completely. Like I just get paralyzed sometimes because I'm like, I don't want to have to ever reprimand anybody who isn't like pulling their weight or getting their work done, because I know what's going on in their lives. I love them as human beings, and I don't want to say, well, gee, that's really sad or gee, that's really hard, but you have to do this thing anyway. [00:30:00] Oh, God, here we're talking about do it anyway. I want them to find that inside themselves. Right. Um, and that is that is something that terrifies me. And I have to do a lot of deep breathing before I have those conversations.

Questian Telka: I would say that another one would be. And this goes back to what I was sharing when I started. My firm is recognizing and admitting that you don't know something. I think we're all scared to do that.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely.

Questian Telka: Trying to find resources to get help or support.

Nancy McClelland: When I taught music [00:30:30] theory at the University of Michigan, one of my, you know, when I was still working on my undergraduate degree, um, one of the best lessons I learned was from, um, Jane Herrick, who was the head of the music program in the area where I was. And she said that the best thing to do when you're teaching and somebody asks a question that you don't know is to earn the trust of the students by saying, I don't know the answer to that, but I know where to find [00:31:00] it, and I'm going to get back to you on it. And I've found that that builds trust in the same way with clients or team members or with your audience.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I would absolutely agree. And in terms of starting your own firm. Um, I'll share my story. My do it anyway story.

Nancy McClelland: Do it anyway.

Questian Telka: Story.

Nancy McClelland: Awesome. Which was?

Questian Telka: Yes. Which was? I was very new into having my business, and I was [00:31:30] terrified. Like, I spent every moment of every day scared. Like, am I doing this right? Do I am I making enough money? Am I servicing my clients properly? Do I have enough time? Like all these questions that run through your mind? And I said to one of my friends who is an entrepreneur, I went to her and I was so stressed and anxious and I was like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, I'm so scared. I'm just I feel like I spend my all of my time terrified. And she was like, yeah. I was like, just. And [00:32:00] just. Yeah. And and and I was like, wait. Huh? And she said to me, yeah, that's how we all feel. She was like, that is you need to accept that fear. Recognize that that fear is there. Accept it. Lean into it and do it anyway. Do what you're going to do anyway.

Nancy McClelland: That's normal. Do it anyway.

Questian Telka: And she used the words do it anyway.

Nancy McClelland: I love when I told you my story and you were like, ah, I [00:32:30] haven't do it anyway. Story two. Well, you you. That resonates with me, obviously, as a firm owner myself. Um, you know, we're going to constantly be working through fears. It's some of them will will go away. Some of them won't be as strong. Some of them are going to be hard every single time. Um, and we're going to find new ones. So, um, I'll, I'm going to be vulnerable here and, uh, talk [00:33:00] to you about a fear that I am still working through and what it might look like to do it anyway, and practice what I'm preaching here. Asking for money. I'm just terrible about asking for money and some a friend of mine. I'm sure a bunch of, you know Ashley Francis. Um, she's she's just fabulous. And she, um, has a company called Kitchen Table Automations where you can. It's it's specifically, uh, classes for women to [00:33:30] learn how to use AI in little chunks of time that you could do while you're at the kitchen table, is the idea. And she was being interviewed by Jason Stats, and he said something about selling these classes, and she was like, oh no, no, no, I don't want to sell. I just want to build something that is really useful to people and have them give me money for it. Which is exactly how I feel. I don't want to have to sell it. [00:34:00] I don't want to have to ask you for money. I just want to do these things that I want to do that I think will make a difference in the world and be paid yes and not, and then just skip the part where I have to ask for it. So, you know, trying to set up ask a CPA and she counts. And my speaking and writing engagements with this attitude of what I have to offer is worthwhile, and you should want to give me money for it. And and taking a deep breath. [00:34:30]

Questian Telka: I'm going to tell you something.

Nancy McClelland: Okay?

Questian Telka: You need to think like a man.

Questian Telka: I just I had to do it.

Nancy McClelland: It's true, it's true. Well.

Nancy McClelland: Part of it, part of it is conditioning. It is. You're correct. Part of it, though, is learning. Like, what are the standards? How is this supposed to work? Being able to compare what you're doing to what somebody else is doing that's similar and ask [00:35:00] them for assistance, like, I don't know what the starting rate is for sponsorship of a podcast. I don't know what a normal amount to be paid for a speaking or writing engagement is. Or at least I didn't know these things until luckily, I, you know, had built enough community and enough confidence to finally take a deep breath and and ask those questions out loud. And you ask me why I did, I asked you.

Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nancy McClelland: I asked you how much. [00:35:30]

Questian Telka: And I said to you, you should be getting paid. Said you should be getting paid, didn't I? Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: It's really hard for me. It's really a terrifying thing for me. I'm not sure where that comes from. I think it goes back to worrying about people judging me as as not worthy. I feel worthy inside. I'm worried that other people won't think it though. Um, and I, I yeah, it's I've struggled this for a long, long time. There's, there's too much that's unspoken. And, um, so my [00:36:00] first step in terms of trying to do it anyway was just taking a deep breath and, and asking people, how are you handling this? What are you charging? What's the process? How do I do this? What has worked for you? And that made a really big difference for me. But it's a work in progress.

Questian Telka: Yeah, always. It's always a work in progress. And I tell myself and I continue to do things anyway. But I'm still we're always still scared. I mean, we're always. Yeah, [00:36:30] yeah. It doesn't go away.

Nancy McClelland: Well it gets better though. It gets better. And one of the things that surprised me, um, in a moment where I, I exhibited, I'm going to say more courage than I would have expected of myself was when I went skydiving.

Questian Telka: Oh, I want to do that.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, I.

Questian Telka: Wanted to do that.

Nancy McClelland: I did it once. I don't know that I ever need to do it again. It was unquestionably the most terrifying thing I've ever done in my life. [00:37:00] Um, but I and I was it wasn't a tandem jump. It was, it was. It was actually after I was out of the plane and my parachute was up. It was amazing. It was actually one of the most incredible things I've ever done. The part of getting out of the plane was really hard, though. And, um, because.

Questian Telka: Every, every part of your body is telling you not to do this.

Questian Telka: Every piece of you, physiologically,

Nancy McClelland: At the time [00:37:30] we were, we were at, um, lunch at the Violinmaking studio where I worked, and I mentioned that I was going to be taking this. It was a again, it wasn't a tandem jump. I actually took the day and a half long class and pulled my own chute and everything. So, um, it was a lot of it was a lot of training. And I mentioned to them that I was going to be doing this, and they asked, why on earth, why are you going to do this? And I said, well, because I've always had a really illogical fear of heights. And so I'm always doing things to try to desensitize [00:38:00] myself and address that fear. And my boss at the time said, no, no, no, no. It's a very logical fear.

Nancy McClelland: To not want to jump out of a plane. That's a very logical that's there's nothing illogical about that.

Questian Telka: Um, so can I ask you?

Nancy McClelland: Yeah.

Questian Telka: Why did you do it anyway?

Nancy McClelland: For for exactly the reason I was saying about addressing the fears that I have. I don't like being afraid. I [00:38:30] my fear of heights is is pretty intense. And I don't like it. I it it does occasionally prevent me from doing things like I will probably never go bungee jumping, no matter how fun my friends have said it is, I don't think I can, or I think I would just, I think I would just die like of fear. That's what it feels like. And, um, I don't like feeling that way. It's really icky, like feels awful in my stomach. And it feels I mean, I [00:39:00] it used to be so bad that I wouldn't go on roller coasters when I was young. And, you know, I don't like being held back from living life. And so, um, the guy I was dating at the time, he and a bunch of his buddies were going to do this, and, uh, it was sort of a dare and. Yeah, no, I, I wanted to show them, but more importantly myself, that I could do it. And I really did want to desensitize myself. I'm. I am not as afraid of heights as I used to be before that because [00:39:30] I'm just like, dude, I jumped out of a plane. I can walk across this bridge, you know? And part of that, and this is a lesson I want people to take home with them, is that training mitigates risk. Learning how to do the thing is one of the things that will build your confidence. Now, that sounds really, really obvious, but you know, I work with a lot.

Questian Telka: I think it's obvious.

Nancy McClelland: You don't think so. Okay, I'm actually relieved to hear you say that. I work with [00:40:00] a lot of bookkeepers who who would be like, oh, I could never do advisory work. And I'm like, I bet if you studied how to do advisory work, you would be confident enough to do advisory work. But you've got to actually learn how to do the thing and really dig in and test yourself. And then eventually you're like, oh, wait, I do have this. I do have this capability.

Questian Telka: Well, and someone telling you you have to experience it for yourself. So someone telling you, learning it and then getting the [00:40:30] confidence will make it more will will help you eliminate that fear until you've actually gone through something like that and experienced it and know that that's what will happen. Yeah. It's often.

Nancy McClelland: It's like Kate Johnson says. She's like, there is no documented event ever of anyone having died from recording themselves on video and publishing it. It's true. Like once you've done it, you're [00:41:00] like, oh, I that was uncomfortable. But now I'm less uncomfortable the next time.

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: So can you remember the moment right before you did something brave and what you were telling yourself?

Questian Telka: Oh, I think right before I do something brave, I just tell myself that I could do hard things. I mean, I've proven to myself that I can do hard things. And what I have recognized [00:41:30] is that those are the moments in my life that are most rewarding. So those are the accomplishments that I have, that I have, that have been the most fulfilling to me. And so I just continue to remind myself that I can do hard things. And one one thing that I will say that I often it's I have post-it notes all over my computer screen and they have different [00:42:00] affirmations, which are an amazing tool which we'll talk about to help face fears. And one of the affirmations is that growth happens outside of your comfort zone. So I like to remind myself that I can do hard things and that growth happens outside of my comfort zone.

Nancy McClelland: I love that quote so much. There's there's so much to that. I actually have a hack.

Questian Telka: Um, yeah.

Nancy McClelland: The moment, yeah, the moment [00:42:30] right before I do something brave. Um, I'm usually that's when I'm full of self-doubt. I'm going, what was I thinking? What was I thinking? Like, that is not a good moment in my life. Um, is right before I'm about to do the thing. But here's the hack. I say yes ahead of time. So I say yes to whatever it is that I'm going to do. Um, you know, like, financial sense. Got in touch with me and they were like, hey, will you teach everyone how [00:43:00] to dance the time Warp at Workflow Con? And I'm like, oh, that amazing virtual conference with like 700 people attending. Sure. Yes I will. And I have a policy of not backing out. I am, I am committed. I show up, I do the things. And so my hack is that I tell myself or not, I tell myself I commit to the thing ahead of time. And. And [00:43:30] when I'm not terrified. And then I get to the moment and I'm like, what was I thinking? Why did I say yes? That was a terrible idea. But I don't back out, right? So I do the thing. And then guess.

Questian Telka: Anyway.

Nancy McClelland: I don't die.

Questian Telka: Don't die. You're like, nobody ever died from dancing on a video.

Nancy McClelland: It turns out I don't think anybody ever did. And it was wonderful. And then they invited me back, um, to do another. To do another one, um, for their text [00:44:00] rap palooza. It was awesome. So yeah, that is a really, really, really cool hack. Um, what are some other I know you've got some in particular like tools for Facing Fear. Some.

Questian Telka: Yeah, I think it's really important. And this goes back to so this is a combined thing. This is why this is why I do it anyway. And it's one of the tools is remembering [00:44:30] why. What your why is why did I say yes to this from the get go? Why do I want to do this at all? And going back to that and recognizing that you care more about what it is that you're wanting to do or the goal that you have, than you do about the fear. So that's one of.

Nancy McClelland: That's helpful to me. I don't think I've [00:45:00] ever tried that. Like, remember the why? That's really good.

Questian Telka: Yeah. And I say that a lot with everything in business. Right. And it's to constantly when you're making a change at your firm, when you are just deciding when you're making any sort of major decision is to constantly come back to your why and determining and remembering what that is. And that generally helps you make a decision. And it helps me. It [00:45:30] helps me mitigate the fear that I have around those decisions.

Nancy McClelland: That's fantastic. I have used I've worked with my therapist a lot on, um, she does both cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavioral therapy and some of the, um, some of the tricks of the trade, sort of that she's taught me were that your. Your three selves. Um, let's see if I can. If I can remember this. I think it's the the thinking, [00:46:00] doing and feeling selves. Yeah. They don't actually need to be aligned in order to accomplish something. So basically this means that you keep saying we can do hard things. Right. That's that's exactly what this is. Um, so Kate Johnson, who I've actually mentioned twice in this episode. Hi, Kate. Um. Hi, Kate. She she actually had a really good. If you're not signed up for her newsletter, you absolutely everybody needs to. It comes out every other Saturday and it's [00:46:30] always I make a cup of tea and and I read it and I feel like she and I are having a wonderful conversation.

Questian Telka: Can you tell everybody who Kate is?

Nancy McClelland: Yes, yes. Kate Johnson runs Bookkeeping Side Hustle, which is a group on Facebook of, um, people who want to be bookkeepers as a side hustle. Um, some of them do it W-2, some of them run their own firms, and it's a really great community. But she's also got a really amazing YouTube channel, [00:47:00] um, where she shares a lot of great information and interviews. Guests such as me, my tax ready bookkeeper session is actually up on her channel.

Questian Telka: Hence nobody dying. The comment, um, of her saying that nobody ever died recording a video.

Nancy McClelland: Yes, exactly, exactly. So she in her newsletter, she talked about having a want to switch. So like, one of her kids might be saying, um, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna. And she was like, find that. Want to switch and turn [00:47:30] it on and envisioning that there's like a switch inside of you that you can turn on and create motivation. Well, I personally, I wrote back and I said, I've got a very similar thing that I do, but it's a little bit different because it's not turning on your motivation, but it is turning on The motions, like doing the thing. I am turning on the switch to make the thing happen. So in cognitive behavioral therapy, you've got these three selves thinking, doing, and [00:48:00] feeling. They don't actually need to be aligned in order to accomplish something. So that makes sense, right? I mean, you can be lying in bed depressed and be like, I do not feel like doing the thing, and your brain can be like that. Doing the thing is the worst idea in the world. Here, let me give you all of the rationalizations, all of the reasons for not doing the thing. And you can [00:48:30] still get your butt out of bed and you can do it. You don't. You're you're conscious.

Questian Telka: All the.

Nancy McClelland: Time. Self says no all the time. What?

Questian Telka: Every morning. All the time. This morning.

Nancy McClelland: This morning. So yeah, they don't need to be aligned. And I you know, I love the idea of A want to switch. But I'm going to be honest, sometimes when I'm feeling like a petulant toddler, I cannot manage to turn that switch on. I cannot find the want to switch. But what I can tell myself in those moments is [00:49:00] what you were saying. Like, I know how to do hard things, and even if I don't want to, even if I don't feel like it, I can do it anyway. And then I separate it from the need to want to do it. And taking that, I know that that's something they talk about in Atomic Habits as well. And so my shorthand with my therapist on this is putting your yoga pants on. Right. Like, I might because sometimes I just don't want to do yoga. Okay, I'm being honest here. I don't want to. I think it's a bad idea. I'm not gonna. [00:49:30] But they don't have to be aligned. You know what? I can. I'm putting my yoga pants on anyway, and it makes it feel it's a little bit easier for me to develop it as a habit. And this can definitely be used, uh, to push through fear as well.

Questian Telka: I agree. And and it also helps to take that fear or that activity and break it down. Not putting your yoga pants on or going to yoga. I don't think you're scared of that, but at least I hope not. Um, but [00:50:00] breaking breaking those tasks down or breaking whatever it is down into smaller steps can help you accomplish it more easily.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. That's a really, really good tool. Um, you can also say what your fear is out loud or write it down that takes its power away. And if you combine that with, um, you were telling me question about the concept of borrowing confidence.

Questian Telka: Mhm. Yep. You [00:50:30] find it goes back to the mentorship. Find someone that believes in what you're doing that believes in you, even if it's something that you're scared to do. And that is something that you gave me. That's something that Misty gave me. Is this feeling and just saying, no, you you can do this. Like you will be a success at this. And I believe in you. So borrowing that confidence from [00:51:00] the people close to you.

Nancy McClelland: And you can combine that with if you're saying what your fear is out loud, or writing it down to take its power away, you can actually you can actually magnify that by saying it in a group of friends. You can magnify it by saying it to a mentor and borrow your confidence from them. So simultaneously, you're taking the power away from the fear and you're borrowing confidence.

Questian Telka: And I'm going to guess that you probably like to write it down. And I'm [00:51:30] a very you're a writer. You're you're a writer. Yeah. And process things by writing. And I'm very verbal and process things by saying them out loud.

Nancy McClelland: Yep. Absolutely.

Questian Telka: Um, I want to ask you.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah.

Questian Telka: You have you have some affirmations that you also tell yourself. Correct.

Nancy McClelland: Yes.

Questian Telka: Okay.

Nancy McClelland: I mean, do it.

Questian Telka: In.

Nancy McClelland: A.

Questian Telka: Way.

Nancy McClelland: That is a big one. So do I. Um, one of them is I don't I don't even exactly know if I [00:52:00] would call this an affirmation. Maybe I feel like my affirmations might be a little a little weird, but they are reminders to myself. Um, one of them is it's a post-it note that is on. I don't have a ton of post-it notes all over my desk or my computer or anything like that, but I have a couple. And one of them, um, is to remember who you are inside. And that helps me a lot. I think it is analogous to what you were [00:52:30] saying about finding your why. Right? Like, who am I? Um. When I am afraid that people will think that I'm being insincere or attention grabbing. And then I check in with myself and I go, wait a minute. I know that I'm sincere and I know I'm doing this because yes, I love attention, I totally do, but that's not why I'm doing this. That's what makes it easier for me to do this. Um, I think about who I am inside me, and I'm the only person [00:53:00] who knows that person as as well as anybody does. And so I have that I don't again, I don't know if that's an affirmation, but it is a reminder to remember who I am inside. And another one that I came up with when my my aunt and I were going through a really rough time when my grandma died is, um, go with the freak out flow. I like.

Questian Telka: That.

Nancy McClelland: Which is great because again, it's a it's that concept of moving forward.

Questian Telka: Even when.

Nancy McClelland: You don't feel [00:53:30] like it. Yeah, yeah. Which is definitely more of a DVT dialectical behavioral therapy concept I love psychology. Can you tell?

Questian Telka: Yes.

Nancy McClelland: Um, you have a weird one, right?

Questian Telka: That's what I was going to say. Speaking of weird affirmations, this is definitely the nerd, the total nerd in me. I'm a huge science fiction fan, and when I'm doing something scary, I remember this [00:54:00] quote from Dune and all. I'm going to share the entire quote, but it's generally only a piece of it because I can't really remember the entire thing. It says I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone. There will be nothing. [00:54:30] Only I will remain. It's intense. But I love that quote.

Nancy McClelland: That's so good. It's so good. You know, it reminds me of a time I was going through a really, really rough time. Um, uh, when my mom was dealing with breast cancer and, um, I, uh, went down to take care of her, and, um, before I left, a friend of mine inquire said that sometimes he pictures himself on the other side of a horrible, difficult [00:55:00] time in his life. He knows that in the past, he's always made it through. And so he'll picture himself on the far side of it and look backwards and try to find the path that got him there. And when you said that, you'll allow the fear to pass through you, and once it does that, you'll be.

Questian Telka: Only I will remain.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. You'll still.

Questian Telka: That's literally the piece that goes through my mind. So that section of it, I will face my fear, I will let it pass through me. And when [00:55:30] it is when it and when it is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain. That's the part that goes through my head. But I felt like it had had to share the entire thing.

Nancy McClelland: Well, you know, courage builds courage. We keep talking about how we're still afraid of so many things, and that's true. But I'm not afraid of all of the same things that I used to be afraid of. When we do something over and over and over again, um, especially when we're building up training for something, um, you know, and we get education about a particular area [00:56:00] or, um, we do deep breathing exercises or, um, another thing my therapist reminds me is that adrenaline is a finite resource. And so if you are really nervous about something, if you are really scared about something, go get some physical exercise. Use up all that adrenaline. It takes a while for your body to regenerate it. So then you go into. It's one of the reasons that Misty Mejia does, um.

Questian Telka: Jumping jacks.

Nancy McClelland: Jumping jacks? Yeah, yeah. And, uh, before she does [00:56:30] a big performance, you can you can usually find her in the green room or out in the hallway doing jumping jacks, saying hi to everybody. So, yeah, use up that adrenaline. So then you do the thing that takes courage. You do the hard thing and then you have positive results. It can really make it easier to do the same thing again.

Questian Telka: Absolutely. That's right. It's muscle memory.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah. You're working that muscle that gets you used to feeling discomfort. So I hope some of these tools work for for [00:57:00] y'all. We would of course love to hear your feedback. Um, what tools work for you, um, in facing your fears and moving through them. And you know why you did it anyway? And a moment where you felt exposed or unsure or nervous or anything like that.

Questian Telka: Um, I think I also, I was going to say, I think I also want everyone to just know and recognize that, again, as [00:57:30] my friend said to me, like we all, we're all scared, even Even though I've gotten on a stage and I've spoken in front of 500 people, the next time I do it, I am still going to be scared and I'm still going to do it anyway. And even the most accomplished women in our profession will tell you that they are still scared of doing those things.

Nancy McClelland: And Jeannie White House Jeannie White House is one of the most incredible speakers I know of in our industry. And and [00:58:00] funny as heck. And she always seems so casual. Yeah, she always seems so casual. And she gets up there on stage and she told me she's like, nope. I get I get nervous every single time. And, uh, you know, if if I didn't, I'd start worrying because it would mean she'd lost the fire or the excitement or the enthusiasm.

Questian Telka: She's one of the reasons that I took the improv class. Because she's.

Nancy McClelland: So.

Questian Telka: Funny. Yes, because she's so funny when she speaks. And I was like, I want to be that [00:58:30] funny.

Nancy McClelland: I wish I could go back and tell my younger self that, right? Like, you know, I, I always, I always say that I wish I could go back and tell my younger self, nobody got an instruction manual. It's not just you. Everyone is making this up as they go along. You are not the only one feeling the way they feel. Go talk to someone because other people are feeling this way as well. And that's one of the things that I would I would say is, you know, that that even [00:59:00] the most accomplished of us out there are feeling fear and anxiety. And we're we're using these tools for facing fear and moving through it anyway, um, and making it easier and making it less scary and making it more manageable. Um, but but it's never it's unlikely that you're ever going to get to a point where you really are fearless. And that's a good thing because it means you're human.

Questian Telka: That's right. And we like being human. [00:59:30] So on that note. I mean, I guess I say.

Questian Telka: It sounds human.

Questian Telka: It sounds silly saying that, but it goes back to what I was or what I was thinking of when I said that was the conversation earlier. And just saying, like our humanity is what makes us amazing. Our emotions, our compassion, our empathy. Like these are positive things. So, um, we really would like to ask the listeners to follow our [01:00:00] She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join the conversation by sharing in the comments under the episode. Tell us what are the things that you're scared to do but you know that you need to do? And what methods do you have for and tools do you use to accomplish them?

Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by the incomparable Maya Angelou. We may encounter many [01:00:30] defeats, Eats. But we must not be defeated.

Questian Telka: Thank you for being here with us on She Counts. The Real talk podcast for women in accounting.

Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you. Well, good, because that's exactly why we're doing this.

Questian Telka: We want you to feel seen, heard and never alone.

Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, and any other resource will be in the show notes. [01:01:00]

Questian Telka: And please be sure to subscribe and we would love to ask everyone to leave us a review, because leaving a review helps other people find our podcast, and we hope that you'll also share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.

Nancy McClelland: Thanks everyone. We'll see you in two weeks.

Questian Telka: See you in two weeks.