Don’t Call Me Darlin’

There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript

Questian Telka: Welcome to. She counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting, where your hosts, Questian Telka

Nancy McClelland: And I'm Nancy McClelland.

Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.

Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure [00:00:30] it out alone.

Questian Telka: A very special thanks to our sponsors, forward Lee Justine Lackey's, the incubator and keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking and no one's saying.

Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called Don't Call Me Darling. And we have a special guest with us, our fierce friend Nicole Davis. We're going to talk about Dominating in spaces [00:01:00] that are traditionally attributed to men.

Questian Telka: And speaking of dominating spaces, I can't think of a more qualified person to talk about this topic because I can say firsthand, and I'm pretty sure that Nancy will agree that Nicole dominates whatever room she is in, in the best way possible, with her amazing smile and her hilarious jokes, which we all love. Nicole leads conscious Accounting previously Butler Davis. [00:01:30] You're going through a rebrand right now, right? Nicole.

Nicole Davis: That is right.

Questian Telka: And also delight payroll with expertise that earned her a place on the Forbes Top 200 CPAs in America. Congratulations.

Nicole Davis: Thank you.

Questian Telka: We're so lucky to have you here. This is so cool. Um, and I just learned that after reading the Forbes article published about you, that you have a first name other than Nicole. And I'm [00:02:00] wondering, it's just as unusual as mine. And I'm wondering how it's possible that I. That you have never shared this with me before.

Nicole Davis: You're like, I haven't. I don't share it with anyone really. Like, I may sneak it in conversation every now and then, but there's a story behind that. Well, it's it's out there now.

Questian Telka: Can you pronounce your name?

Nicole Davis: Yes. It's Lophelia.

Questian Telka: Lophelia.

Nancy McClelland: Lophelia.

Questian Telka: It is beautiful. I'll trade you.

Nancy McClelland: I [00:02:30] like your name. Question. We love launching each episode with a story, as our listeners know. And Nicole, I know you have one to share with us. Uh, that was the reason that this episode is titled Don't Call Me Darling. You actually came up with this title, which we both love. I want to hear the story behind it.

Nicole Davis: All right, so I'm from the Deep South from Georgia, and I vividly recall a prospect. [00:03:00] It was an older gentleman. He was very kind. He was very polite. But he kept calling me darling. Now I know somebody named darling, but that was not my name. So I did correct him at the end. But for me, it just feels like when, when, when, when men generally they see someone, um, they see a pretty face or they see just women in general, they see our face, but they kind of they tend to [00:03:30] sidestep our expertise. Right? And it wasn't just about like him knowing and seeing my name. It was more so like, hey, I'm an equal here. Like you came to me and what's the other way around? So call me Nicole and we can be good friends.

Nancy McClelland: So yes.

Questian Telka: I love that.

Nancy McClelland: And I, you know, I have had that kind of experience myself many times. And it is I [00:04:00] am absolutely sure that 90% of our listeners have had that kind of experience where, um, somebody it's not that it's it's not that they're not kind, but it is, um, you know, a microaggression. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Davis: Definitely.

Questian Telka: Yeah. How did it I'm curious. How did it make you? How does it make you feel, or how did it make you feel when when he did that.

Nicole Davis: So, so because I'm in Georgia, we use a lot of like, [00:04:30] honeys and sweetheart. And so for me, I didn't I wasn't offended per se, but but since we're in a professional setting, I'm like, you need to call me by my name.

Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you are. You are a force. A fearsome force. Um, and you, as we said, you dominate whatever room that you are in and we want to know when talking about dominating, [00:05:00] what does that mean to you specifically?

Nicole Davis: So I thought a lot about what dominating means to me specifically. So for me, dominating means agency. It means I am calling the shots. I'm writing my own tickets, I'm making the rules. Um, I am doing things my way. That's what dominating means for me. And and just to add to that, I know we talked about, um, what? You haven't mentioned it [00:05:30] yet, but visibility, authority, freedom, power, all of that rolls up into like dominating for me. So it took me a long time to realize that real power isn't in a title. Right? Real power isn't in how much money you have. Real power Hour is when you own who you are and you make everyone else also accept that [00:06:00] person. Right.

Nancy McClelland: So you're you're defining it for yourself.

Nicole Davis: Exactly.

Nancy McClelland: And you're making sure that they know what that definition is and that they're seeing you for who you are as opposed to the.

Nicole Davis: Other way around. Exactly. Right.

Nicole Davis: Because at the end of the day, we have to like, you know, the old saying that, um, you have to you have to train people how to treat you. Right?

Nicole Davis: Yes.

Nicole Davis: You. So because a lot of times people have these preconceived notions about who you are [00:06:30] and they tend to initially approach you like that. And so for me, question knows I set boundaries and I set them fast with people.

Nicole Davis: She is much, much.

Questian Telka: Better at that than I am. And I, I like watch it and I see it happen and I'm just like, I need to do that and I need to be better. And I, I mean, I have definitely texted her before and said like, oh, wow, Bravo. Like, I wish I could do that. Have I not? [00:07:00]

Nicole Davis: Yes you have. Yes. So for me.

Nicole Davis: It's all about.

Nicole Davis: You.

Nicole Davis: Know, it's all about owning my story so completely that the room, that the room moves to my rhythm. I'm not moving to theirs.

Nancy McClelland: Oh, I love that. As a dancer. Of course, you describe anything in terms of rhythm, and I'm like, that's. That's perfect. Sometimes we call that, you know, dancing to the beat of someone else's drum instead of our own. And you're you're dominating [00:07:30] is about beating your own drum to your own rhythm, your own moves. Um, something that I talk about sometimes is, is the the dance between bookkeepers and tax pros. Sometimes, you know, you're like, it's like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. One of them is calling the shots and getting all the credit and being first billed and and defining the choreography, and the other is doing it all backwards and in high heels. And sometimes it's time for us to pick [00:08:00] a new dance partner.

Nicole Davis: Exactly. Yes.

Questian Telka: Nicole, how did you make that? How did you make that happen? Is it something that is just been natural for you, or did you have I like and for the the listeners who are not watching the video, she just made like a funny face. And I'm going to guess that her answer is no. It wasn't natural. So I want to hear how she cultivated it.

Nicole Davis: All right.

Nicole Davis: So for me, like, no, it was definitely not natural. Um, so believe [00:08:30] it or not, I am very I'm highly introverted. People think I'm not because I can turn on. But as quickly as I turn on, I can turn off. And I'm actually off more than I'm actually on. So for me that it was a struggle to make that shift because again, I'm thinking in my head, especially early in my career when I worked in corporate America, that power meant title power meant that corner office power meant that I'm calling the shots and I'm telling people what to do. When I started my firm, [00:09:00] that facade quickly started to, I guess, be chipped away at. And so for me, now, I know that true power, true. Owning your story all starts with first your mindset and then also understanding that it is truly having freedom. Having that agency like to build your own table and then put your logo deck snap in the middle of it.

Nicole Davis: Yeah, right.

Nancy McClelland: It sounds to me like you, [00:09:30] the the original version of power is a is maybe a more traditional male concept of what power is. And you maybe shifted to something that is a bit more personal and feminine.

Nicole Davis: Yes, absolutely. Definitely. That original version was definitely male. A male mindset driven version. Because again, corporate America, just like in most fields, [00:10:00] is heavily male dominated and it's heavily male dominated with white males. So to me, I'm looking to them as being powerful. Like, I want to be there, but as a black woman and we know how incredibly difficult that can be for any woman.

Nancy McClelland: But doubly so. I want to make sure we're not glossing over that. It is hard enough for white women, but we have to remember that we are also coming from a position of privilege, and our African American sisters [00:10:30] are that one rung down on the ladder when it comes to the traditional accepted corporate definitions?

Nicole Davis: Absolutely. Yes. So. So we have to like like you said, put in twice, three times the effort just to kind of see them lay. Oh my gosh the playing field. Yes.

Questian Telka: Yes. So you you mentioned like making a mindset shift. And then like as time went on [00:11:00] the there was a shift in how you viewed power. Was there a catalyst for that or was it like you know, or was it a series of stories or was there anything in particular or a leader that helped you shift that mindset?

Nicole Davis: So yes. So I and I talk about her a little, um, a lot in my social media posts. So it was my, um, my boss at the Federal Home Loan Bank. Her name was Michelle, and she was a black woman, I believe she was the first black [00:11:30] woman that I ever worked for in my career. All my other manager and bosses were white men. And so when I started working for her. Then my eyes started to open. I started to see myself like, oh, I can be a boss, even though I already. I've always had intentions of being a boss.

Questian Telka: But it's like nobody's stopping me. Just to be clear.

Nicole Davis: But I knew, but I didn't see the path [00:12:00] of how to get there as a black woman, because all I seen was white men. And so when I saw her, I was like, oh, this is how you do that? And then it just went from there.

Questian Telka: We we talk about that so much is is how important it is for there to be representation. Right. So that, you know, women can women and black women and other minorities can see people in the roles and in the spaces that they want [00:12:30] to get to. And I think you made a really good point is that it showed you the. It helped you see that there's a path and what the path was to that, you know, to that place which is so important?

Nancy McClelland: Well, if you don't see somebody who looks like you in a position, you you think I mean, the example that I often give, um, and, and this is a moment of vulnerability because it's very embarrassing to me that this still happens to me. But when I, [00:13:00] uh, when I hear the word doctor, I presume it's a white male. Now, that is just absolutely ridiculous. I have not seen a white male doctor of my like in my own life for many, many years. And yet when I pick you, say the word doctor. The first thing that I picture is a white male. It's these are deep seated institutional societal biases that we we all have. And once we see people in those roles [00:13:30] who look like us, we start to replace those pictures in our minds. Slowly, over time, societally, one person at a time, and we start to go, oh, wait a minute, there is this, this is point A, that might be point F over there, but there I can connect the dots between here and there.

Nicole Davis: Exactly. Agree 100% with that. Yeah. Same with you. When I think of of CEOs and CFOs, immediately a white male pops in my head. [00:14:00] Yes.

Questian Telka: That's so. Yeah. It's so interesting isn't it. Yeah. And and the same thing happens to me and it's it's funny. I'm happy you mentioned that, Nancy, because I, I don't think people talk about that very much or feel comfortable admitting it. Right.

Nancy McClelland: It's embarrassing.

Questian Telka: Are you kidding.

Nancy McClelland: Me? I don't want to, you know. Okay, I'm going to tell you another thing that happens to me that is horribly embarrassing, that is related to this. When I am watching a sports game [00:14:30] and a woman is in the locker room interviewing the people after the sports game. Right. I'll be like, oh God, does she really want to be there? Do they make her do that? I think that is that a horrible thing to think of? That is a volunteer. There are women who love sports. There are announcers there. And yet this is something that I. I didn't grow up seeing that as as something that women did. Right. And so it is [00:15:00] it has taken me all of this time to consciously you first you got to go meta and you got to notice that you're doing it, and then you got to go, wait a minute, Nancy, does this actually make sense? And over time, you know, you start to train yourself.

Nicole Davis: Absolutely. And just to add a finer point on that, I don't want like the audience or your listeners to confuse when we're talking about like, these spaces traditionally being owned by our male counterparts, like dominating is not about making men small, right? [00:15:30] Dominating is about making the space honest enough for all of us to fit into it. Oh.

Nancy McClelland: I got chills, Nicole, I got chills. I'm not kidding. I got chills all over. That is absolutely incredible. One of the things that question and I really struggle with, as far as the She Counts podcast is concerned, is that we want to make sure that it's there's no man hating here. We [00:16:00] get frustrated by the societal structures that are keeping us out.

Questian Telka: Right.

Nancy McClelland: Which is which is exactly what you're talking about with your definition of dominating. It's knowing. It's knowing who you are, how you want to be seen, and then entering those spaces that are have not traditionally been opened to you and, and being seen in, in the way you intend to be seen in those spaces. So I, I absolutely love that. And you really gave me chills.

Nicole Davis: Awesome, [00:16:30] I love it.

Nancy McClelland: So what are the spaces that you think that women are still shut out of? That's that's I mean, we've we made a few pretty obvious ones here. You know, we talked about sports, we talked about doctors. We talked about CEOs and CFOs. Talk to us about some of the spaces that you have seen. Maybe you've even tried to enter. And yeah, I.

Nicole Davis: Actually sat down and wrote a list because [00:17:00] when we were talking about pulling together this podcast and you said that this is the topic you want me to speak on, I said, okay, let me sit down and think about the spaces women are supposed to be, but we're showing up in, right? Yes. Of course, one executive leadership, that C-suite and it's traditionally has been the old old boys club. There's bias in the promotion pipelines and there's a an assumption, an incorrect one, that women lack the executive presence or that we will step [00:17:30] back for family. Um, Stem and tech is another one. Finance and venture capital. Access to capital has been one of the things long um favored um or geared towards men, construction and skilled trades. Which is why I started the construction company, because who said women can't wear heels and then put on some steel toed boots at the same time in the same week. Um, politics and policy making, like, um, there was a there was a famous quote [00:18:00] by Ruth. I'm not sure I say her name right. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I said that. Got it. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Yes. Give me some. Ruth.

Nicole Davis: We women need to be in the spaces that our policies are being made, because a lot of these policies are being made about us and about our bodies. That's right. And then, of course, vocal thought leadership, which is why I love this podcast, because it's geared towards women and, um, ensuring that that because men always get the platforms and then we always [00:18:30] have to ask permission, and we're just going to flip that whole notion on its head.

Questian Telka: It's like we're not asking. Go ahead.

Nancy McClelland: No, I was going to ask you to say it. So it's perfect. It's what Questian says.

Questian Telka: I don't know what one you were going to say, but I think you're saying that we are going to build the table instead of asked to take a seat at it. Yes.

Nicole Davis: Here's my thing with tables. So I definitely think that, um, there are [00:19:00] some tables for women. So my whole philosophy on tables is that I want a seat at the table, but I also want to vote, you know, from America, you know, they have those voting shares and non-voting shares, right? Like, I want not only a seat, but I want to be able to also have a vote and what goes on at that table. So I'm all for building your own tables, but also all for joining tables where I have, um, a voice set.

Questian Telka: I want to go back to the point that you made. [00:19:30] You mentioned this concept or this view that women don't have executive presence. And I really think we should turn that on its head and redefine what executive presence even looks like and is. Oh, girl.

Nancy McClelland: Yes, yes.

Nancy McClelland: That's that's perfect. Because, you know, I mean, we Ashley Francis often says that, you know, women are actually in so many ways she [00:20:00] she'll say it in the in the context of AI that, you know, these are large language models and women tend to be very strong in that area, uh, both in, in the use of language themselves and also in the sense of community and getting other people to adopt those things. And, and so she's advocating for changing, you know, flipping it on its head that technology is a man's world. Well, you know what? I is a women's world. If we're going.

Questian Telka: To. [00:20:30]

Nancy McClelland: Try to, you know, name things one or the other. So I love taking that a step further with what you're saying. Now, how do we do this?

Nicole Davis: Oh, I have a couple of ways we can do this.

Questian Telka: Yes.

Nicole Davis: All right. So let's first start by owning. Owning a room before you actually speak in the room. So what does that look like? That's like walking in a room and acting like you belong.

Nancy McClelland: Yes.

Nicole Davis: Before anyone approaches you, you're like, that's scary.

Questian Telka: And it's hard to do, especially if you inside feel like you don't. [00:21:00]

Nicole Davis: It is there. There's some philosophy, there's some some mindset things around that. Right. But listen, do it anyway. Do it. Scared. Um, so for me.

Nancy McClelland: Somebody's been listening to the podcast, right?

Nicole Davis: Presence is power. I think people think you have to walk in a room and be the loudest person there in order to show someone that you're a significant. No you don't. You walk into a room and you're just [00:21:30] there. Your presence says way more than words you could ever speak or say.

Questian Telka: That's what that's so true because you are not the loudest person in the room. But you really do have this presence and it dominates a space and it's amazing. So you're the perfect person to talk on that.

Nancy McClelland: Well, but was that something that you came by naturally or did you learn how to do that? Nicole.

Nicole Davis: I had to learn how to do that. That [00:22:00] did not come. That remember, I am I am naturally geared towards being an introvert. So that definitely comes from a lot of practice. Right. A lot of not shrinking myself to make others feel comfortable.

Nancy McClelland: You're making me sit taller. Yeah, right.

Nicole Davis: Yes, yes.

Questian Telka: So you were starting to give us some tips? Yes. And I interrupted you, but I had to say that so.

Nicole Davis: And then, of course, name the bias. I'm really good at naming biases and calling things out that people think I can't [00:22:30] do, and then doing it better.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I love that you. You mentioned when you were going through the list of traditionally male dominated spaces. You you said construction and then you said, and that's why I started a construction firm like so. Yeah. So, um, did that part come naturally, that desire to when you saw a space where you were traditionally [00:23:00] not invited to join, did does that trigger you to to step up and make it happen? Because it sounds like there's a relationship there.

Nicole Davis: And you just said my motto, but my personal motto is to make it happen. Like, I don't believe in leaving anything to chance. If I want something I'm going to go after, go after it and I'm going to get it if it's something I really want to accomplish.

Questian Telka: So if a door doesn't open easily for you, you kick it down.

Nicole Davis: Absolutely. I kick [00:23:30] it down. Put a grenade around it and blow it up.

Nancy McClelland: Wow. I love it. That is absolutely amazing. So I'm curious then, if getting your CPA was one of those doors you had to kick down, or whether it was what came after being respected as a black woman with a CPA talking tech and strategy?

Nicole Davis: Yes, I will definitely say I have. First, let me say I never intended to become [00:24:00] a CPA. That's part of my story with my boss at the bank. She was a CPA. I saw that kind of the path I started going down when I started working for her. So for me, it wasn't easy because again, I never intended. I was in my 30s when I got my CPA, um, early 30s. Authorities. So again, I have been working in corporate America about ten, 11 years at this point before I decided to finally sit for the CPA exam. And there a lot of credibility is behind those three initials, especially [00:24:30] for a black woman. Right? Yes. When you see a black woman, well, probably when most people see a black woman, they don't immediately think, oh, she's a CPA or or she's in any type of a professional, um, professional industry. Right. And so for me, it allowed me to garner gain the respect of others. Um, that probably I wouldn't have gotten I mean, I would have gotten it because I have a strong work ethic, but it would have taken me a lot longer to kind of overcome [00:25:00] that hurdle for me.

Nancy McClelland: That is why I got my CPA as well. I know nothing about. So, you know, my master's degree was what taught me to do the things that I didn't already know how to do. So I had I had the, um, knowledge and I had I had already been running my firm for a long time, and I had worked in, in other, um, you know, as an accountant at other companies. And so I had the experience, I had the education, I had the knowledge, but I didn't have the respect [00:25:30] that came with those three letters. So, you know, as a, as a, uh, white woman. And one of the things that that makes me crazy sometimes in ask a CPA or bookkeeping buds, um, or at the conferences, I will hear a colleague refer to themselves as just a bookkeeper. And that makes me insane because there's no just about it. Keepers are essential. Bookkeepers are valued. Bookkeepers count. Uh, literally. Also, um, and but [00:26:00] there but there is a there is a societal looking down on bookkeepers. And I did know that if I got those magic three letters like you said, that there would be a shift in the way that I was treated and respected, and the credibility I was given.

Nicole Davis: Yes. And proceed. Right. And a lot of people say that it didn't change, change anything about them, but it definitely changed things about me and my life and how people perceived me as a person.

Questian Telka: So [00:26:30] did it change your confidence level?

Nicole Davis: No. No, I wouldn't say. I got for, like, for the whole world.

Questian Telka: You're like. That comes natural.

Nicole Davis: That does come natural.

Nicole Davis: So no, no, for me, um, it it just changed how it's perceived and how I approach things because I knew I was the expert. And so, like, if you came at me, you better [00:27:00] come. You better come. Correct. Because I'm going to challenge you. Uh, if you're not.

Questian Telka: Do you think that that people have. I mean, been surprised, right? Or you're saying you got your CPA gave you credibility when you talk about M&A or you start to talk about tax strategy or technology leadership?

Nicole Davis: I do, because I think people think, what is this little girl know about any of that? Because I don't really talk about it a lot on social media. I may mention [00:27:30] it here and there, but I don't really talk about it a lot on social media. Like, for instance, if you notice a lot of my social media posts, my personal ones, I rarely really talk about the technical side of tax or accounting. It's not that I don't know it. I know it very well. It's just not something I choose to discuss. I don't feel like I have to flaunt my smarts in order for someone to to, um, to believe I'm competent. I'm comforted. I know I'm comforted. I don't have to prove that to you unless you're my client, [00:28:00] right?

Questian Telka: Right. And everyone should follow you on LinkedIn because you're not posting technical things. But you're one of my favorite sources for daily humor. So.

Nancy McClelland: And and some really perfectly timed inspiration and reminders. That is amazing how often Nicole, I will be in the comments. I will say, how did you know that [00:28:30] today was the day that I needed to hear this? She just it's like she gets in my head sometimes. It's a little creepy, but in a good way. Uh, definitely a follow on LinkedIn. Um, and I'm curious, though, you know, question was asking if people get surprised when, as you say, this, this little girl, what's she doing talking about these, these big topics? And has that changed over time as you've received some external [00:29:00] credibility? So for example, you know, Forbes 200 and this recent feature by Kelly Phillips Erb um, in who, by the way, is one of my favorite writers. It was such a fangirl moment when I finally got to meet her. I love that woman so much. Um, do you feel like that external credibility has been part of people hearing you differently or seeing you differently?

Nicole Davis: I do, yes, I do think that lens, that that additional lens to the credibility and actually boosts [00:29:30] it a bit, right? Yes. Because you're in the you're you're being quoted or you're being featured in these um, very what's the word? Um, credible. Um, genre. Credible articles, magazines. Um, so for me it definitely gave a boost. But again, I'm all about like, listen, I'm all about being so good that they can't ignore you, right?

Questian Telka: I love that.

Nancy McClelland: That [00:30:00] is lovely. You know that? It makes me think of, um. Wow, I have noticed about myself that I have pursued mastery in complex areas. I'm going to use business law as an example too, because I was talked down to men in those areas by by men talking down to me in those spaces where women aren't expected. And so I'll, I'll just dive into that and I'll be like, oh, [00:30:30] really? You want to talk down to me about it? Maybe I will. Um, you know, take a few classes on this and show you exactly where I am and who I am. And that's been really empowering to me. So I love I love that you're saying that, um, your you have this internal, intrinsic belief in yourself in terms of confidence, but that's what gives you the energy you need to go learn all the things.

Questian Telka: Yes.

Nancy McClelland: And then they can't ignore you. And so you start [00:31:00] getting called out and getting the external credibility as.

Nicole Davis: Exactly, yes. I'm really big on being excellent in everything that I do. So, um, and that just again, that just means like. And it's a meme. Actually, I have, I have this meme that I love to look at and it's, and it's a picture of someone and it says when someone says you can't do anything, do it twice and take pictures. And so for me. So [00:31:30] for me, in a way it's like, oh, you thought I couldn't do that, but let me not only do it once, I'm going to do it again. I'm not going to send you the receipts. Right.

Questian Telka: Yeah. You're you're about to get schooled. Yeah. I think the three of us have that in common. And I think driven women, it's like the more somebody because I've been underestimated my entire life, my intelligence, my skills. Underestimated my entire life. As soon as someone underestimates me, that just gives me extra drive. They don't [00:32:00] realize that Lies that instead of knocking me down, it builds me up and it makes me. It's like, I will show you.

Nicole Davis: Yeah, it gives you fuel. And then it's two parts to that though. So. So when I was like building my resume per se, um, in the, in the accounting space as a firm owner, like I, I had that same drive when someone said I couldn't do nothing. Oh, I was going to show them, right. So I was trying to prove something to them.

Questian Telka: Watch me. Watch. [00:32:30]

Nicole Davis: Yeah. And then it started to shift. Where now I have. I have the confidence. I have like these. External this external credibility. Credibility. Now it's more so like I used to do things to prove others wrong. Right? But now I do it more so to prove myself right. You know.

Questian Telka: Something. Something that is interesting. I think about that too, is like in my journey with those, The like those things [00:33:00] happening to me. I realized that by the time I had accomplished whatever it was, I had set out to prove somebody wrong about, I didn't care what they thought about it at all.

Nicole Davis: Exactly right. Yep.

Questian Telka: So how? Tell us, how have you been able to maintain your voice and identity as a leader? I know you have really strong boundaries, but how did you. How [00:33:30] did you set those boundaries?

Nicole Davis: I'm very stubborn. That's probably why I'm quite stubborn. Uh. And so. And I. And I like doing things my way as my husband. And so for me, it was it was just like, these are my non-negotiables. Like, these are the things I won't bend on. And and you can, you can, you can like them or not, I don't care, but this is how it's going to play out in my life. [00:34:00] Um, be a part of it. Be a part of that. Or don't. So.

Nancy McClelland: And now, how do you balance that with being chief? Hello, officer. And leading with warmth. And you know how how do those work with each other?

Nicole Davis: All right, so let me just tell you that, um, I, I, I am warm but firm, so warm.

Nancy McClelland: But firm.

Nicole Davis: Yes. So I it was funny because I was telling Missy maybe a couple of years ago, I was like, I [00:34:30] think my clients are scared of me. And she was like. And she was like, um, she's like, maybe not. She said, maybe they just respect you. And I was like, oh, she totally reframed that because in my head I'm thinking like, I'm just just this, this very firm and rigid and and cold person. And she's like, I don't think that's it at all. Because if that was the case, you wouldn't have any clients. Um, I just think that you do a good job of balancing, like, uh, [00:35:00] being approachable, being warm, but also being like the, like that firm and having those hard boundaries in place. So for me.

Nancy McClelland: I want my clients to be a little bit afraid of me. I really do. Not a lot afraid of me.

Nicole Davis: Just a tiny bit. Right? Just a little, tiny bit.

Nancy McClelland: Because it is very motivational for them to to, uh, know that I might be disappointed in them if [00:35:30] they make some poor decisions. And it it does cause them just being a teeny bit afraid. Not of of me or of the ramifications, but like of, of me being disappointed in them. They don't want that. They don't they don't want to upset me because if I'm happy we're all happy.

Nicole Davis: Mhm.

Nancy McClelland: Right. If they, if they're keeping it's true. Because if they're keeping me happy it means they're probably doing things that are healthy for them and their business. So just a teeny bit.

Questian Telka: Just a little bit of [00:36:00] fear. Yeah. Yeah. And the important thing is balancing the warmth with the boundaries in the right situations and at the right time.

Nicole Davis: Right. There is a time to be very empathetic. And there's a time to be very like, this is the way it is. Yes.

Questian Telka: With that in mind, how does showing up as your full self help others do the same? So, as Nancy always says, flying your freak flag, so to speak.

Nancy McClelland: Okay. Now, to be fair, I [00:36:30] didn't say Nicole flies her freak flag. That's my freak flag that I'm flying. But I do. You know, we're all we're all members. Um, as a matter of fact, I believe we're all board certified members of the Theater of Public Speaking. Misty helps us, um, you know, brainstorm and access, like the the ideation, the topics that would be most important to us. One of the things that I love to talk about is encouraging other people to fly their freak flags, because I was always [00:37:00] too much. I was always, you know, trying to to do all the things and be all the things and enthusiastic about all the things, because I genuinely actually am that excited about all of the things. And I believe very strongly that, um, when we allow ourselves to shine, that inspires others to do the same. And so we can call it a freak flag if you [00:37:30] like. But we can also say.

Nicole Davis: Definitely.

Nancy McClelland: Is that you also shine. You also shine. Yeah. And so yeah, how how do you do that? How do you do it and how do you show others.

Nicole Davis: All right. So going back to being authentic. So to me authenticity is a permission slip. And The freak flag or your freak flag. Works a lot like Wi-Fi in some. It does, but you probably don't think about it that way. It's like Wi-Fi in that people [00:38:00] that are in range of you being who you are. They get that signal and they log into theirs, so they get their free flag. Ooh.

Questian Telka: This is why this is why Nicole and I connect so well. And Nancy.

Nicole Davis: So again, it's all about giving people, like, permission to be themselves. And when they see you thriving as your unfiltered self, they're like, wait, I can be myself. [00:38:30] Yes. This, this and this.

Questian Telka: Yep I agree.

Nancy McClelland: Oh my God, I love that. I am going to I am absolutely going to think of that Wi-Fi content my freak flag is I'll give. I have quoted Nicole in in numerous talks and I you're going to get quoted with that one as well. When I when I talk about the freak flag. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful.

Questian Telka: So tell us, what does it mean to buddy [00:39:00] up with the bots? Ah.

Nicole Davis: Yes. Letting up with the bot. So yeah, that was from my, um, my interview with Kelly. Yes. Nice girl. Um, so. Okay, so, you know, AI is is making a grand stand in our profession, and there are so many people that still have not latched on to it yet. Like, we talk about it a lot in our circle, and we feel like it's very prevalent, but it's not. There are a lot of there are so many people, so many firms that have not touched AI yet. Right. So buddying [00:39:30] up with the bot just basically means like, we're going to use these tools to our advantage, that we're going to buddy up with them. They're going to be our friends in a way to make our work lives easier, our personal lives easier. And for from a work standpoint, let's just take that as an example. So your bot can seriously act as a tireless junior associate. Like we know we talk about hiring in the pipeline. Make them your junior associate. They never need to take vacation. [00:40:00] They never get tired. They can do all of the things that you really don't want to do from an administrative standpoint, possibly from an analytical standpoint. And then we can use our, our, our real people, our people assets to like, do the heavy lifting when it comes to things like judgment and empathy and imagination like.

Nancy McClelland: And to your earlier point, to communication.

Nicole Davis: Yes. They don't have any imagination. Have you put [00:40:30] things in, in, in any generative AI tool and asked it to imagine things? No. They're going to pull from so many other sources, they can't think of anything creatively, creatively, by themselves. That's what we're here for. That's right. And we can utilize that tool to expand our imagination, expand our output and our outcomes for not only ourselves, but for our clients.

Nancy McClelland: There was one quote in particular, um, from that recent Forbes article, uh, that [00:41:00] that you had said that you help redesign business processes by reducing or automating non-value added tasks and focusing on improving productivity. And here was the part that resonated and quality. Yes. You're not just trying to. You're not just using AI and automations for efficiency. You're actually improving the quality of the deliverables [00:41:30] that you're offering the clients.

Nicole Davis: Exactly. And I do think that we have to learn how to layer the two. Both bots and human interaction. Right. Like people are only relying on the bots or they're always doing things manually, but they should be dance partners, right? Yes. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: I love it when you talk about dance.

Questian Telka: Well, I.

Nancy McClelland: Also love this whole. I'm doing [00:42:00] a session at Intuit Connect later this year on a similar topic on on balancing automation and advisory without losing that client experience. But one of the things that I, I love that that you believe that I also believe is that it's not just about not losing that client experience. I don't think it's either or. I think that we can actually, as you were saying about improving quality, I think that we can actually use AI and automation tools to both improve efficiency [00:42:30] and actually improve the client experience and improve our client relationships, because there are so many different ways to customize and personalize that we might not have time for otherwise.

Nicole Davis: Exactly. Absolutely agree with that. We just have to learn how to balance the two so that guys don't feel like we're over automating the relationship. Right. In some cases, absolutely.

Questian Telka: Yeah. Which is easy to do. You know, it is the shiny object syndrome, as we say, right? Yes.

Nancy McClelland: And I think that these new tools, [00:43:00] they really allow women to design their firms around their lives, not the other way around. And, you know, you've got your whole series, Freedom Friday. Um, and I know that that has a lot to do with leveraging tech to protect your time and energy.

Nicole Davis: It is so I yes, I encourage I use, um, as much tech tools as possible because, again, you only have so many hours in the day and there are so many things I want to get done. And it just it's just not possible because I have to sleep. And so [00:43:30] for me, it's all about okay, how do I get this done without having to have what I actually having to use my own brain power to get it done right. So for me and I encourage my team to do the same thing like, hey, you don't have to have all the answers, right? Yeah, but you'll be you'll need to be able to audit what is provided to you from using those tools, and then relay that or use your judgment to, um, to kind of massage [00:44:00] the outputs to get the results you want.

Questian Telka: So I'm curious, why is this transition in the profession a major opportunity for women? Do we, you know, do you see tech as a disruptor and, you know. Um.

Nicole Davis: Yes. So for me, tickets flip the script. Uh, even more so than it has done in the past just because it's it's rapidly evolving. And like how I mentioned, there are so many people that haven't even, like, dabbed their toe in it yet, [00:44:30] but they're going to get left behind. And for women because because women now here's here's funny. So Ashley Ashley is like the queen of AI in our profession, right? In my humble opinion. And so for women, we have the technical know how, but we also have the emotional intelligence. And so we can marry the two and get things done faster, quicker, more efficiently. Um, without having, having a bunch of, um, of noise in between. [00:45:00] So for me, the tools are catching up with the market, and, and we have to be open to using them to better our lives and the lives of the people that depend on us, like our our family, our team members, anybody that is relying on us to like, make, give, give them a better outcome. So that shows up a number of different ways for women. For one, um, how Nancy mentioned my Freedom Friday post, right?

Questian Telka: Yes. Yeah, I saw that today.

Nicole Davis: So [00:45:30] so for me, I want to use that to give people like how people think about like, how can I give myself a more free life? Tech does that. And if you're not utilizing it, then you're you're pretty much shackling yourself to how the how it's always been done, which we all hate that saying how it's so.

Questian Telka: Oh, so much. Yes, we were talking about that recently. It came up and it was like, oh, this idea like, oh well, well, why do you, you know, [00:46:00] give me an explanation as to why you do something a certain way. It's like, oh, so it's done that way. It's like, oh no, it's like the worst reason. Exactly.

Nicole Davis: And because women have mastered, I guess, efficiency out of necessity. It's not something like you said, it's kind of weird. No one's born efficient, right? Everyone's kind of born on the same playing field. All of us are highly inefficient as babies.

Questian Telka: Yeah, that's no joke.

Nancy McClelland: I love the idea of highly efficient babies, but, you know, you're. That's a really good point. We we [00:46:30] we cry when we need something and we have our needs met. We, you know, take things in. We put them out.

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nicole Davis: As time grows, we learn how to be more efficient. And women are particularly, um, adept at that because of all the different things we're, we're juggling. And just to get more time into our day, right. To get things done. Oh my gosh. Yes. Women are perfectly positioned to like, like, make a big major splash in [00:47:00] the tech industry. Um, and will be more, more likely to be the change agents that kind of keep this, this thing going.

Nancy McClelland: I completely agree more. Yes.

Nancy McClelland: We're both cheerleading Consensus here.

Well, I you know, I'm going.To add to this that I, I also think that because women are already used to adapting to bias, you know, we're reading the room. We're we're recognizing [00:47:30] where we have spaces and where we don't. And we're working within those niches. I actually would argue that we're in some ways more nimble. And, um, you know, that what what question was just saying about how much he hates, you know, oh, it's always been done that way. I think that women have a unique ability. I shouldn't say unique, but I think that we're we're more predisposed. Predisposed to, uh, [00:48:00] adapting. And this is a major shift. It's a disruption, as as you were saying. And, um, I, I think that this is there are many reasons for this being our time to shine. To fly those flags. Yes. And to shine and.

Questian Telka: To.

Nancy McClelland: Give up our Wi-Fi so that other people can pick up that signal.

Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we we keep coming back to dominating and leading and hopefully, [00:48:30] I mean, I think all of us agree that we can and should and probably will dominate in that space. What's one moment where you knew that you were leading in a space that wasn't designed for you?

Nicole Davis: I would like to, um, kick that question back to you and say what space was ever built for me.

Questian Telka: Oh my gosh, two space. Yes, every space I. Yeah. So [00:49:00] good. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: There are a lot of women out there right now going, oh, yeah, she understands me.

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nicole Davis: So I can think of so many moments like starting my own firm, like the first. Entrepreneurship is already hard. It's super hard. And then owning a professional services firm like a CPA or tax firm, that's doubly hard now because we're not good salespeople. Okay. And our business relies on us getting people to buy [00:49:30] our services. So just being able to to kind of, I guess, turn those stereotypes of what, uh, an accountant looks like, what an EA looks like, what a CPA looks like has been.

Nancy McClelland: And even what a salesperson looks like. You're just saying we're not good at sales. Well, no, we're not good at the traditional, uh, male defined sense of sales in in direct sales. But we are excellent. Absolutely [00:50:00] excellent at personal relationships. Yes. And that's the foundation for that.

Nicole Davis: So and we just have to find that, that ideal client that, that, that, that that's important to them, the relationship part of it. Because we're really good at that. You're right like I have I and listen I hate I'm not um I'm a humble bragger.

Questian Telka: So as you should be as we all should be. We all should be, right? You know, we're. You're [00:50:30] told not to brag when we were. We're told to be modest brag.

Nicole Davis: But like I built my firm strictly on relationships, whereas I didn't really have to. Like a lot of people say they talk a lot. People talked about churn. I was like, whoa, what is that? Because I didn't have a lot of churn early in my firm, because relationship is what my clients value. And I made sure to nurture that, which is why it's able to build my firm without having to ask so many clients every year. I just kept taking care of my current clients and [00:51:00] just adding more services to what they they needed.

Nancy McClelland: Question. This is exactly what Justine Lackey was talking about from the incubator, one of our amazing sponsors and supporters and listeners since day one. You know, she's talking about how retention is really where it's at. Sales sounds sexy, but retention, and that's based on personal relationships and making sure the Ensure the client feels respected and heard and valued.

Questian Telka: And I don't know [00:51:30] if this if I would say this is always a positive thing, but I have lost very few clients. My firm's five years old and I can count on one hand the number of clients that I've lost. Wow.

Nancy McClelland: That's fantastic.

Questian Telka: So it's like this.

Nicole Davis: More of that. We talk about growth, growth, growth. But how are you growing? Like are you growing because you're constantly adding new clients or are you just take are you or I like to say I, I super serve are you super serving your current clients?

Questian Telka: Yes, yes. Always [00:52:00] looking for opportunities to service them more. I mean, that's my go to, right? I would prefer to do that because the whole onboarding process for new clients is time consuming and tedious, and you don't know if you hope it's the right fit, but you never know if it's going to be the right fit until you're already kind of, you know, in the relationship. That's right. Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Well, I want to make an analogy Between having your client base, uh, take up more space rather than, [00:52:30] you know, the lateral, uh, growth as opposed to that vertical growth. I want to make an analogy between that and taking up more space in your world and in the spaces where they are traditionally male dominated. Um, Nicole, what advice do you have for women who want to take up more space?

Questian Telka: Huh?

Nicole Davis: Oh, let me think about that. Who wants to take up more space? Take it.

Nancy McClelland: It's [00:53:00] all about the bold move, right?

Nicole Davis: I say take again. It all goes back to like, I know we we haven't touched on this a lot, but imposter syndrome, like, stamp it out. Like you're not an imposter. Yes. There are things that you feel you may not be ready for, but do it anyway. Like, I think he talks about, like, growing to it. Like you don't have to have it all figured out from day one, but, you know, something like, you wouldn't have gotten this far without knowing [00:53:30] anything, but, you know, something. Use that to to level you up. So I would say first, get out your head. Get out your own head. That's that's your worst enemy. And then start speaking life into that thing that you're trying to accomplish. Um, say it out loud. Say it to yourself in the mirror. Say I say I am a I am a badass speaker. I am a exceptional accountant. I know how to do this, this and this. Even if you don't know how to do it. [00:54:00] Okay, say it anyway. Because eventually your mind is going to start believing it, and eventually your actions are going to start following what your mind believes. And eventually you're going to be exactly what you said you're going to be.

Questian Telka: Yeah. And and that's what they tell you to do too, right? Like manifest and have mantras and like, say these things to yourself over and over again. Oh, we're going to see a oh, I can't read it.

Nancy McClelland: This post-it note, for those of you who who are watching the video of this, I'm holding up a post-it note from the Theater of Public Speaking Advanced [00:54:30] retreat. Um, we not only did this ourselves, but we got to see the post-it notes from last year's retreat, which the two of you were on. And these these were the affirmations that we wrote down that are just like what you're saying. I have everything I need. I am a masterpiece. I am my vision board. These are some of the statements that women in our session. And then we got to see all of yours hanging on a beautiful, [00:55:00] um, display. Oh, you've got one right there.

Questian Telka: I have it.

Nancy McClelland: This is the one that extraordinary. We're a picture. I would be framed.

Questian Telka: And. And that was actually Nicole that said this. Oh.

Nancy McClelland: Nicole has the best quote.

Questian Telka: She does. She has the best quotes hand down. You need to write a book of quotes.

Nicole Davis: I think you said that before.

Questian Telka: I have.

Nancy McClelland: But of course this touches on the role of community and peer support. [00:55:30] Women hyping up women like the two of you meeting at theater, public speaking, and my then being inspired, um, later on by the experiences that you had and even some of your exact words that you did not know were going to come back to us. But they did, and they inspired all of us in our amazing, um, advanced cohort as well.

Questian Telka: I love.

Nancy McClelland: That. Nicole, we are so grateful to you for being here today. This has just been absolutely. [00:56:00]

Nicole Davis: Not done, are we?

Questian Telka: Oh my gosh, that's a first. And I love it so much. She's like, wait, okay.

Nicole Davis: You have to ask me the question about mentorship or sponsorship. Like I was looking forward to that question.

Questian Telka: Okay.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. Well, we'll let it. We'll we'll cut something else out and we'll do and we'll make sure that we have that. So that I think we should just an hour.

Questian Telka: We just let it go. Yeah. I mean, we'll just let it roll. Let it roll. It's going to [00:56:30] be like, yeah two minutes. You're right. She's like, I want this one. Okay. So and you know, this is something that we talk about on I feel like it comes up on a lot of podcasts. Is, is do you think that mentorship or sponsorship is more important when you're stepping into male dominated territory?

Nicole Davis: All right. So for me all right. So I definitely think they're both important right. In an ideal world you want to have both. [00:57:00] But what's most important for me. And I give you a quick story of why that is. What's most important is sponsorship mentors guide. But sponsors vouch. And let me tell you why.

Nancy McClelland: Oh wait, you have to resay that because that is too good. You, you and your incredible quotes. I read that mentorship.

Nicole Davis: Yeah mentors guide but sponsors vouch. And I say that because back in 2020 right. That's the Covid year. It was August of. And I actually looked this [00:57:30] up in my email when I saw the notes from question, I said, oh, let me find out when this happened. So I went back to my emails. I found the email. It was an email from the AICPA. So I am on I'm on a number of committees with the AICPA, and in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would work for the AICPA. They're sort of like, um, the, the, the, the town Oz in The Wizard of Oz, like, uh, you know, it's there, you know, there's wizards go happening. They're [00:58:00] doing their thing for the profession.

Questian Telka: They're doing their.

Nicole Davis: Thing. They never go there. Right? Right.

Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, I love that you put it.

Questian Telka: Such a good analogy.

Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it really is. It really is. Well and that's one of the reasons that for for CPAs such as myself, to see you on the AICPA town halls, which I am their biggest fan, I am, I am I, Lisa Simpson, told me that I'm not technically her biggest fan because somebody got to it before I did. So I am her second biggest fan. But [00:58:30] when I see your face show up on the AICPA town halls, I go, oh, wait a minute.

Nicole Davis: Us and Lisa's going to kill me.

Nancy McClelland: But she she found the guy with the behind the curtain.

Nicole Davis: Yes. Well, Lisa's going to kill me for saying this, but. So back in August.

Nancy McClelland: You better watch out, because Lisa listens to this.

Speaker8: I know Jeff.

Nicole Davis: Reached out to me. He was like, hey, I think you'd be a great fit for the engaged planning committee. The practitioner's planning committee. Back then it was practice. So practitioners [00:59:00] and the tech committees were together, and I was like, I had no idea this committee existed. First of all, let me say that, um, and then I get an email maybe not long after he said that from, I guess, one of the, um, producers, one of the one of the managers that that was over the the engage conference. And she was like, hey, Jeff, drew, um, dropped us your name and we think you'd be a great fit for the planning committee. And we want [00:59:30] you to be on the practitioners planning committee. I was like, oh, awesome. So all I had to do was really was submit the application, go through a round of interviews, and I was selected to be on the committee, and I'm still on the committee. I'm the chair actually this year for for the practitioners planning committee. So for me, mentors like they help you like say the right things. They help ensure that your your that you are um, that you know the unwritten rules. Right. But sponsors, sponsors, they [01:00:00] rewrite the guest list for you so that your name is on it. Oh, so you need sponsors to get you on the list, right? And then when you're on the list, your mentors help you stay on the list and guide you as you go through your journey. So that's why I think sponsors are critically more important than mentors. Um, when it comes.

Questian Telka: Why we also want men listening.

Speaker8: And Jeff Drew is a white male. Let me just.

Nicole Davis: Say that okay.

Questian Telka: Good job Jeff.

Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. [01:00:30] And you're you're making me think of of, um, Mark Gallegos, who was actually on yesterday's AICPA town hall. You know, he saw me speak at Intuit Connect on reasonable compensation. He said, that's the best talk I've ever seen. On reasonable compensation. We need you to speak at engage. You know, and so, like, it's opening those doors that you might not otherwise. Um. Yeah. I love what you said. They they rewrite the guest list so that your [01:01:00] name is on it. That helps me think really more specifically about the difference between sponsorship and mentorship. Thank you for that.

Questian Telka: We're just going to have to write a list of quotes just from this episode.

Nancy McClelland: Oh, I've been writing them down. You know me. I voraciously take notes. I have a whole list of of Nicole quotes that I'm actually going to put in the show notes, just so that people don't have to take their own notes during this. They can, they can, they can make a whole series of [01:01:30] inspiring post-it notes from Nicole's quotes from this show. Now, am I allowed to sign off?

Speaker8: Yes. We're good. No. I didn't want to do anything. Shout out!

Nancy McClelland: We'd like to ask listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page, and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode Don't Call Me Darling. [01:02:00] What are some spaces that you have felt excluded from and are now inspired to join, to dominate. I'm going to change that. Not just to join, but to dominate.

Questian Telka: Dominate. That's right. And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by none other than our guest, Nicole Davis, who is full of witty sayings, as we now know. Um, and it is darling is [01:02:30] cute, but I prefer Miss Domination.

Nancy McClelland: Okay, but can I keep calling you Nicole?

Speaker8: Oh, yes. All right.

Questian Telka: I'm going to get her name next time I see her name. Tag is going to say Miss Domination on it.

Nancy McClelland: His nomination.

Questian Telka: Yeah.

Nancy McClelland: Nicole, thanks to you and to all our listeners today for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. [01:03:00]

Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you. Well, that's exactly why we're doing this.

Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen. Heard and never alone.

Questian Telka: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at. Earmarked links to that in any other resources will be in the show notes.

Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps other people find the podcast and share this with [01:03:30] another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.

Questian Telka: Many thanks again to our amazing guests, Nicole Davis. We're so glad that you could join us today. Thank you Nicole.

Speaker8: Thank you.

Nicole Davis: This was so much fun.

Questian Telka: Uh, it was a blast. I feel like it was really just the three of us hanging out. It was wonderful. And thanks to our listeners as well. We'll see everyone in two weeks.