There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts, the Real talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And every episode, we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession. [00:00:30]
Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure it out alone. A very special thanks to our sponsors, forward Lee Justine Lackey's, the incubator and keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking and no one's saying.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called The Elevation of Empathy. And we have a special guest with us, the designated [00:01:00] motivator herself, aka none other than Dawn Brolin.
Dawn Brolin: The crowd goes wild. That's right. Maybe not. Maybe there's a lot of booing. We don't know. We don't know.
Nancy McClelland: We can't hear them.
Questian Telka: Dawn's recently released a book called The Elevation of Empathy leading to win.
Nancy McClelland: With that, I am delighted to introduce our dear friend Dawn is a CPA, [00:01:30] a Certified Fraud Examiner, and president of one of our favorite nonprofits, the Accounting Cornerstone Foundation. And just as importantly, she's a passionate softball coach and inspirational speaker. The designated motivator.
Questian Telka: And as everyone knows, we love launching each episode with a story. But this time we're going to ask Dawn to share hers with us. Dawn, welcome to She Counts, and we really want to thank you for being here. Would [00:02:00] you share us? Share with us a story of what motivated you to write your book?
Dawn Brolin: Absolutely. I want to first of all, thank you guys so much for having me. You two are just two pioneers in this industry that are helping people, which is what we all are passionate about doing. I feel like there's this tribe of us that are we just, again, empathy. We want to we want to have empathy for other people. We want everybody's lives to be better. Um, and I just I'm just appreciating that you had me on, um, today, so. Yeah, I mean, I'd love [00:02:30] to tell the story. And I have a bunch of stories. Of course, I probably could tell you 7 million stories, but we'll stick with just 1 or 2. Um, as far as kind of like what drove me and what what made me feel like this was a topic that needed to be said. Um, I definitely have had experience in this industry. Um, as a matter of fact, with women, um, in a partnership. And, you know, it was a time of my life that I feel it was a good thing that I went through it, because it taught me a lot about [00:03:00] what was important. As I left that partnership, what were the things that I knew I needed to do that I was not going to repeat from the experience I had. And I found that as as a leader and a partner in this firm, that I was one of the team.
Dawn Brolin: I was one of the three, one of the threesome that we, the three of us were going to really kick butt together and do some great things together. It was a really tough period of my life. My kids were little, uh, they were only, I think six and seven at [00:03:30] that point, maybe five and six. And, you know, it was I was the breadwinner. I was the one out working. And, you know, that was what my husband and I agreed to, which was fine. Um, but it was hard, you know, leaving your kids behind, doing all these things. The two partners that I had didn't have kids. They didn't have kids that were young. Let's put it to you that way. One of them didn't have any. One had older, moved out type type of a kid. And I, I watched a lot of how the two of them treated the employees on our [00:04:00] team and more importantly, their partner. Uh, someone that was, you know, got this partner start partnership started, brought in the most of the clients when we first started the partnership. But because I wasn't a CPA, I was the little guy. I was going to answer the phones and get the lunch. And I was going to, you know, there was no level set of what and how we treated each other.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Dawn Brolin: And I watched how they treated the employees. Well, it wasn't just me. There was zero [00:04:30] empathy in that firm. None whatsoever. And it's interesting to think back about how some of you who are listening today may be in that position where you're whether it's a woman leader or a woman, a female partner or a male partner. I would have thought a female partner because yes, women are typically more have more emotion and more empathy than a man does. And that's just it is what it is. That's the that's the perception. [00:05:00] Maybe not the truth, but the perception. And so I never expected that I would have been treated in a way where there was zero empathy. Simple example the the three of us went to we started working out together because I was told I was fat. So we all decided we were going to go to the gym together.
Nancy McClelland: Sorry, I have to interrupt. Could you repeat that?
Dawn Brolin: Yeah. Uh, well, I can give you a few of them. I was fat, so I needed to lose weight. [00:05:30] I wore the same clothes all the time. I needed to go shopping. I can't believe you're wearing that again.
Questian Telka: Who said this to you? Were your partners?
Dawn Brolin: Mhm.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Wow.
Dawn Brolin: And you know, it took me a long time to realize how, how horrible that was. We went to step class together and I happened to step off the step platform and tore my meniscus. So I went down and just in so much unbelievable pain. So of course, [00:06:00] the gym's worried about me suing them. My two partners are in the in the room with me. I somehow get down to the office in the gym because it was upstairs. I dragged myself down to the office. Now I got to go to the hospital. Right. And they were like, all right, well, you know, you're gonna have to drive yourself there.
Nancy McClelland: With a.
Dawn Brolin: Torn.
Nancy McClelland: Meniscus.
Dawn Brolin: Or meniscus. Drive yourself to the hospital and make sure it worked tomorrow morning.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Dawn Brolin: So that was that's just one little example of kind of [00:06:30] how things went and the way I really appreciated the experience and a little bit of a way, because I knew I was never going to do that as an employer. Like I say, never is a big word. I was going to try to not do that to other people.
Questian Telka: Yeah, right. Yeah. Having experienced it yourself.
Dawn Brolin: And so your listeners, the listeners here, there's got to be other people out there. Otherwise I'm an anomaly. And which is possible.
Nancy McClelland: We know that's not true.
Questian Telka: That's.
Nancy McClelland: No, that's not true. Everyone I mean, [00:07:00] that's the reason that we're doing this podcast. It's it's why you were one of the first people I wanted to invite onto the podcast is something that has happened to everyone. And it's also at times and you talk about this in your in your book at times. Um, it's something that we accidentally do to others, right? We're not always going to be focused on other people's needs and other people's well-being. And you know, there, as you also talk about in the book, there also need to be boundaries. Et cetera. And so on. And the [00:07:30] question of empathy and how we treat each other is universal. You are not an anomaly. You are not alone. As a matter of fact, we talked about it a little bit last year at Bridging the Gap. Randy Crabtree's amazing conference in our in our panel, which will will hopefully have time to touch on a little bit more later actually a tie in there. I noticed that Randy Crabtree wrote the introduction to your book. You may know that Randy was the one who introduced the She Counts podcast to the world by having us on the [00:08:00] unique CPA podcast. And, uh, we're endlessly grateful to him. What an advocate. We love him. Yeah. So the goals of this book, you you mention in the book that you wanted to, first off, provide a pathway for the development of more empathetic leadership and secondly, change the way that people think about how we treat others and the impact we have. So two sides of that same coin, and I'm going [00:08:30] to add one to it for this podcast specifically, which is that I want you, Dawn, to please help us help women in accounting learn the importance of celebrating empathy, not stifling it. I know that sometimes women think that to participate in a man's world, you know, they got to crush their tendency toward compassion and emotion. And we want to say, actually, that's a superpower. Tap [00:09:00] into it.
Questian Telka: Yes, that's we actually brought that up on our on one of our prior podcasts, because that is something that I have always struggled with, is I am a very sensitive and empathetic and compassionate person. And for many years it was put to me or I felt like it was a negative about myself. And it's only like in the last, you know, 5 or 6 years where I've really kind of embraced it and said, you know, no, I want to I believe that this is powerful and I want to use it because I want [00:09:30] to do better, and I want everyone else to do better, too. So we were very excited to have you on and talk about this topic. Me especially.
Dawn Brolin: Yeah. Empathy doesn't mean you're soft, by the way. Empathy not at all means you're soft. As a matter of fact, I think it's a super power, like you said, Nancy. A strength that people have not recognized as a strength. Yeah. And, you know, and leadership positions, you are already perceived perceived as somebody with [00:10:00] some kind of empathy, right? You can't be you can't be a bull in a China shop and and like, well, people are, but there are some people who are, you know, bull in a China shop, uh, which is not also not a bad thing, but at the same time, there to have that side of empathy that can actually see into people's souls, which I think is part of a recognition, um, of the fact that, hey, listen, like I can pretty I can pull out pretty [00:10:30] quickly if I, if I see empathy in someone and when and when I don't see empathy in someone and those that I don't see empathy in, I, I try to stay away from them. I want to educate them, but I don't want them to get into my I don't want that. In inside of me. I don't want to. I don't want to hang out with those people. I always tell my kids, you you become people you hang out with.
Nancy McClelland: There's so much truth to that. There's a great quote that I actually it's it's, um, one of the mantras [00:11:00] I use in, in dealing with some of the, the types of people that you're talking about. And the phrase is unconditional love, but conditional involvement.
Dawn Brolin: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: And that's always been very helpful to me. I want I want to just before we get started, too much, I want to make sure because we're going to be talking about some pretty some pretty deep stuff here. And some of the people who are listening are going to be the people that that don you, you know, you talk about being on the receiving end of a lack of empathy. They might be [00:11:30] hurting and struggling a lot now, and none of us is a therapist or clinician.
Dawn Brolin: So no, we.
Nancy McClelland: Want to share a resource with you before we we get too deeply into it, just in case this triggers any emotions or inner struggles that folks are having. There's something I learned about through Don's book called The Crisis Text Line. The this is a nonprofit organization. You can text the word home H-o-m-e to [00:12:00] 741741, and you will get confidential professional mental health assistance. So I just want to make sure that that is out there as a resource to folks, especially if any of what we're about to talk about triggers some of your feelings. So, Don, sorry. Back to you. Unconditional. Conditional. Unconditional.
Dawn Brolin: And those feelings that you may be, that you may have as you listen through this episode or you read the book or whatever are legitimate and justified. You know, we all have our experiences [00:12:30] in life. We've all gone through things that have been traumatic. Everybody's gone through something traumatic. Everybody. And I definitely like. I internalize a lot of like the things that I've been through. Like I try to really learn from them. Um, some of them are pretty, pretty hardcore. Um, and so and I think I mentioned a little bit of that in the book in the beginning. I, you know, the, you know, dedication to my mom and dedication to Sarah, who's I'll start crying. But, you know, we, we, we don't realize [00:13:00] the way we interact with people matters. Absolutely. You know, just a simple smile to a person, a simple hello, a simple hi five, a simple hug. And, and I talk about this in the book that that you do that with intention. It's not a passive thing where you're just like, oh hey, high five. Like like a high five doesn't mean something that my high five is like, hey dude, I how can I help you? Like, put [00:13:30] a smile on your face, right? Nancy.
Nancy McClelland: I see you. You are in my world. You are. Yes. You matter.
Dawn Brolin: And you.
Nancy McClelland: Matter. Yeah, well.
Dawn Brolin: I.
Questian Telka: Have.
Dawn Brolin: A question.
Questian Telka: What would you. What would you say to someone who has an individual in their life who has done something to to somebody else or to them, and they want and need to express to the person that they feel like there's a [00:14:00] lack of empathy and they want them to grow that empathy. Like, how do you get that across to somebody who you feel like isn't empathetic towards a situation that you have?
Dawn Brolin: I think you kind of have two options. One option is to just kind of like in some cases, you can't get away from them, I guess. But in some cases, those are just kind of people that it's time for you to kind of remove yourself from that situation. If you if you believe. And sometimes we have this, again, perception that people won't change, but [00:14:30] sometimes it's important enough to say, hey, listen, I, you know, can we just sit down for five minutes? I just I just really feel like I need to talk to you about this. I feel like some people aren't comfortable doing that. So in that case, maybe it's just separate yourself from that person. Because none of us deserve to be treated the way sometimes people treat us. But it is worth, I believe it's worth a conversation to sit down and say, hey, listen, Nancy, which this is, this is not possible, but we'll use it as an example. Nancy, listen, man, I've known you for years [00:15:00] and I, I really like I love you like, I think you have great energy, this and that. But, you know, this other, this one scenario that happened or maybe it's multiple, but I think we just need to talk about this because it really hurt me. I really took it personally, which that's my decision to take it personally or not. But I just want to let you know how this affected me. And I, and I bet it.
Nancy McClelland: Wasn't over and over in the book. But you say empathy can be learned. So this is what you're describing is your opportunity [00:15:30] to help them learn that, right?
Dawn Brolin: Yep. Help them open their mind to the fact that I didn't recognize that that that made you feel that way. Because I believe in people and I believe people. I would say the majority of people are just not out to hurt other people. I think a lot of times people have been through something and then they've learned that that behavior. That's why I say in the book, you can unlearn that. Yes, you can, you can sometimes.
Questian Telka: Yes, sometimes hurt people. Hurt [00:16:00] people. Right. And so it's like intentionally recognizing that you are, um, having a situation where you're hurting and then being careful to recognize that you're not doing that to others unintentionally, because I think that does happen a lot.
Nancy McClelland: I'm going to back up a second and just make sure that everybody's using the same definition of empathy here, right? Like so the American Psychology Association defines empathy as understanding a person [00:16:30] from their frame of reference rather than one's own. So that's exactly what you're talking about here. Question. Right? Or vicariously experiencing that person's feeling, perceptions and thoughts and and those two definitions, those two parts of the definition are, as you go into in the book, somewhat don their cognitive empathy versus emotional empathy, but it's all empathy. And so that you know everything that you're just saying there question. It fits exactly with with [00:17:00] that definition. But why but why does it belong in leadership? I mean, you you talk about important skills for leadership, decision making, communication, integrity, resilience, self-awareness and empathy. Why is empathy on that list? Don.
Dawn Brolin: I definitely believe that leaders who have empathy, people will gravitate to that leader in a different way than a leader who doesn't have empathy. A [00:17:30] leader who doesn't have empathy makes decisions without any care and concern about how it affects other people. I mean none. I'm making a decision to do this, and I'm the leader, and you're going to follow me because I'm the leader, I'm the CEO, I'm the partner, I'm the coach. I'm the this. I'm the. It doesn't matter because when you are typically most scenarios leaders are appointed. Now what I should say. People are appointed to [00:18:00] a position that does not make them a leader.
Questian Telka: Right?
Dawn Brolin: It does not make them a leader.
Questian Telka: I think being an empathetic leader, something that people miss a lot, is that it breeds loyalty in your subordinates. And, you know, having that relationship and that dynamic and feeling like you're seen, heard and understood by somebody in a leadership position and then being empathetic of your life situations. It [00:18:30] does build and create a loyalty. I know it absolutely has and does for me.
Nancy McClelland: Yep. Oh, I couldn't agree more. And actually that's that's really well documented out there. I won't go through all the studies because, um, they're in the they're in the bibliography of Don's book. Um, but stronger teams, sharper decision making, higher levels of influence, positive productivity, innovation, engagement, retention, as you just described. Question inclusivity, which is something I know you're very passionate [00:19:00] about. Uh, work life integration, cooperation, improved mental health, yada, yada, yada. I mean, like the list of the business benefits of leading with empathy, just go on and on and on. And but, Don, you mentioned that we're not born leaders. We're we get appointed into these roles and then we have to grow into them. Could you share a story with us of a time when you were in one of those roles and you did not measure up, and learning how to be empathetic had helped you.
Dawn Brolin: Absolutely. [00:19:30] I probably have a million of them, but again, we'll just stick with one because no one's perfect and those types of things. So there was a scenario when I was coaching, which I don't coach anymore. Softball. I coach firms now by. I retired last year and there was a scenario within the softball team where, well, let's just say that the head coach was not a leader regardless. So the there was a few kids at the end of it was 2023. The season ended and there was a mass exodus. [00:20:00] So what you're saying about having this team that comes together and it's like, oh, this is amazing, right? So these there were three in particular players that transferred to another school, and I was not happy about that. The head coach wasn't happy about it. People weren't happy about it. It was like, this is ridiculous. I hadn't recognized that the environment that this particular head coach was had created was very negative. My role as the designated [00:20:30] motivator was to almost reverse that. So my role was to make it all inclusive, make everybody feel appreciated, make everybody feel loved, make give that empathy to these kids unconditionally. And that's what I did. When these three kids left, my empathy went out the window.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, no. And that's because you were personally hurt by it. Because you felt like they. Oh, wow.
Dawn Brolin: I just I was I was devastated that [00:21:00] they left. Now I because I, I poured my soul into them and I was like, you're leaving me. And I had like, this is an epic fail. And we can we'll talk about the recovery of it in a second, too. So that happened. Then there were some other circumstances that happened over time. And I realized, what what are you doing? You're the designated.
Nancy McClelland: You realized that about yourself.
Dawn Brolin: Of myself, I was like, what is wrong with you? [00:21:30] Like, there's a problem.
Nancy McClelland: That's a little harsh.
Questian Telka: But I was.
Dawn Brolin: Just I was like, you are somebody who loves and gives and cares and has empathy and all these things. And because of a situation, you tore it. You tore it away from them. And that was so wrong.
Questian Telka: Well, you you know, we're not perfect, right? And you had the self-awareness there, I'm sure. And to take a moment and think about it. Right.
Dawn Brolin: And I stepped I stepped back about [00:22:00] a year ago. This is like fresh stuff. Part of this is, again, a piece of why I wrote this book. Because of myself. I didn't tell the story in the book, but I, I went to each one of those three kids and I apologized.
Nancy McClelland: Oh.
Dawn Brolin: And I said, I want you to know something. This is an epic fail on my part, not yours. I. This is whatever. Like all the things. And now we constantly are texting each other because I knew it was [00:22:30] my fault. And what the beauty of the whole beauty of that story is that they accepted me back.
Nancy McClelland: Oh. That's gorgeous.
Questian Telka: Forgiveness. Right.
Dawn Brolin: We forgive you. You're not perfect. We understand that. We left you behind. You know, kind of in a way. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Right, right.
Dawn Brolin: And and and the and it's just such a beautiful thing. So my point in saying that is, for those people who have been unempathetic to an individual, you [00:23:00] have the ability to fix that. You can go to a person and you know you know, when you when you messed up and I knew I messed up and I was like, I have to make this right. And I said to them very, very honestly, listen, I, I ignored you like I just. We broke away. No empathy for you and how you were feeling and what you went through and why you transferred. I didn't have that for you. And I want to give you the permission, in case you don't give [00:23:30] it to yourself, that you don't have to forgive me. Oh, you don't have to.
Nancy McClelland: Talk about letting yourself be vulnerable in that moment. Because sometimes, sometimes when we're apologizing, we're we're sort of doing it so that we can have the guilt lifted off of our shoulders for you. Yeah. You were apologizing because you it was just the right thing to do. And you wanted them to be better for it.
Questian Telka: Right? Wanted them to feel better rather [00:24:00] than make yourself feel better. And I think that's what really makes a difference to someone else.
Dawn Brolin: Yep.
Nancy McClelland: So they sensed your sincerity. They they found it in themselves to forgive you. You're a better leader as a result. It will probably make them better leaders in their lives because they saw you being mindful and and recognizing, you know what? What you did that was wrong. They saw you cultivating that humility and stepping outside of your comfort zone. That's that. Those examples will probably stick with [00:24:30] them because they were treated in a way that that resonated.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So you also cover some tools and practices for building empathy in the book. Can you share what some of those are with us? I think there is a great list.
Dawn Brolin: Sure. And like the first one that I have in the list is practice mindfulness to build awareness. This is this is something that I really work on and it's something you work on, like we said. I mean, nobody's born and goes there [00:25:00] in fifth grade and I see some of these TikToks and they crack me up. Kids graduating from fifth grade. I want to be a gas station attendant. Like you're just cracking up, right? It's just so funny. They don't know. They don't know what they want to be. Right. I've not seen one of the TikToks where it says, oh, mommy, I want to be a leader. Like, that's not that's like, it's not like, you know what I'm saying? So. But people, because people are people have to learn. So part of one of the practices that I try to really fulfill is that awareness. When I am [00:25:30] talking to someone, I try to be very present in that conversation. And that's not easy to do. I don't I don't know if you guys agree or disagree, but if I'm the worst places are at conferences, to be totally honest.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, conferences because we at a conference you want you want to see everybody. But there are potentially, you know, a thousand 2000 other people there and.
Questian Telka: Distractions.
Nancy McClelland: All so many distractions. And it's really hard to get one on one [00:26:00] focused time with anyone.
Questian Telka: Well, and I you know, I've talked about having ADHD and it's like if I'm in a conference and I'm trying to be focused in a conversation and then there's 20,000 things happening around me. I have a really hard time like staying present in that moment. It's very difficult.
Nancy McClelland: But that goes back to what you were just saying, Don. It's a practice. It's you're you're practicing mindfulness. You're not you're not saying I am an expert at this. You know, my therapist and I call it going meta [00:26:30] because you have to take yourself out of the situation and sort of look at yourself in it. And it's hard.
Dawn Brolin: It is hard. And that's why you have to practice it. It's it's when you're making a decision. Also being mindful when you're making that decision. How is this going to affect these people? Is it good. Is it bad? Well, if it's going to be a bad consequence for some, really great for others, how do I mitigate these handful of people where I know it's going to be negative for them? Do I maybe approach the conversation [00:27:00] with them differently than I would with somebody that I know is going to win from this? That's real mindfulness of how our other people are feeling. So for example, silly example. Pop into a bar, have a couple drinks, just hanging out the bartenders there and you're like, hey Sarah, how's your day today, man? What's going on with you? How's everything going? And Sarah starts to tell you some real serious stuff, and you're like, you know, usually it's the opposite, right? But let's just go with that.
Nancy McClelland: We [00:27:30] joked on a recent podcast that, um, you know, when when you go to your therapist, I worry about my therapist sometimes because I lay a lot of stuff on her and she says, don't worry about me. I've got my therapist, right? Like I'm taking my stuff to that therapist. And then that therapist has their therapist. And we joke that when you get to the top of that, it's a bartender.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I remember that.
Dawn Brolin: So true. That's so funny. But, you know, when you're sitting, when you if you're going to let me put it to [00:28:00] you this way, if you're going to ask somebody a question, if I'm going to say, hey, Nancy, how are you today? What are you doing? After you asked the question what happens to the brain question ADHD appreciate respect. What happens after you answer that question in your brain? What are you telling yourself to do after you ask the question? Are you telling yourself to do anything?
Questian Telka: You should be telling.
Dawn Brolin: Yourself.
Questian Telka: To listen, right? But sometimes you're formulating a response [00:28:30] instead.
Dawn Brolin: And that intentional that and it's all intentional. It's something that doesn't just happen, right? Um, asking questions without making assumptions. We do this all the time. Now, I'll tell you what, if you're an accountant, you're a leader to your clients. Your clients see you as a leader. And so for you as that leader, as as you're working with them and asking them questions, going into a conversation with assumptions about what [00:29:00] they're going to say rather than going in with a blank slate. This is a hard one. Hard.
Questian Telka: Been really hard for me. I'm getting so much better at it. But it has had it has taken so much intention on my part because I do tend to think ahead and I have like a preconceived, okay, I'm going to have this conversation, this is how it's going to go. So trying not to have those assumptions, and most of the time if I don't have the assumptions, things turn out [00:29:30] much more positively, right? Because you're not five steps ahead and you're really able to be present and listen to what they have to say without having an assumption about what you think you're going to hear.
Nancy McClelland: And paying attention to, to their nonverbal cues. Right. That's one of the other things on Don's list. So question when you're in those those zoom meetings and when we're thinking ahead about how we're going to respond or what advice we're going to give because we're the helpers, right? We're the experts. They hire us. So we're we're moving on to that. We're [00:30:00] not focused on what are they? What are they not saying out loud that we should maybe be considering asking about. Right. Asking those questions.
Dawn Brolin: And one of the other pieces I think is really important from a leader's perspective that, you know, has that empathy is asking for feedback. So being letting yourself Nancy, we talk about vulnerability, being in a position to say, hey Nicole, on my team, for example. [00:30:30] Hey, Nicole, you know, this scenario happened with this client. You know, we got through the issue, whatever it may have been. Are you good? Like, what could we have done differently to either avoid that from happening. Was it is it something I should have done that I didn't do that got us to this point? Like, help me so we can do better together and and, you know, maybe avoid that situation or whatever it may be, but allowing yourself to say, hey, I might have messed up like it could have been me. [00:31:00] So let's get to the root of it.
Nancy McClelland: I'm trying to remember who who I learned this from. Um, it might have been. It might have been John Garrett. Um, who you know, I love so very much. Um, for anybody that will make sure that that's in the show notes. But John Garrett, uh, is the host of what's your and, um, and wrote a book by the, by the same name about, um, about doing some of this stuff, about asking people about their lives outside of work and, you know, yes, you're an accountant. [00:31:30] And anyway, um, I don't remember who it was. I think it was him who said that sometimes we don't ask for feedback as leaders, because we're afraid we will expose our weaknesses to our team members. But guess what? Our team members are already quite aware of what our weaknesses are. We are not giving them any new information by bringing this out into the open.
Questian Telka: No.
Nancy McClelland: No.
Questian Telka: Definitely not. [00:32:00]
Nancy McClelland: I know.
Questian Telka: That.
Nancy McClelland: Sounds really obvious, but that was not obvious to me when I heard that.
Questian Telka: I think it's also partially because it's so difficult. It's like you want to ask for the feedback, but it's really hard to hear sometimes. And so it's like, and it takes some humility to be able to sit and listen to what someone has to tell you as real feedback. You know, it's not easy.
Dawn Brolin: It's not easy. And I really think that in some ways, you [00:32:30] know, there are people who just don't have empathy. They just don't. There's not and they're not interested in growing it. They're not interested in changing those people I believe should be in like manufacturing, where they're just working with equipment because the equipment doesn't care what you say to it. You know what I mean?
Questian Telka: They shouldn't be leaders. Yeah. I think you need to have empathy in order to be an effective leader. And, you know, it's almost like I would someone will say to you, like, I just really, you know, I don't like people. It's like, yeah, you probably shouldn't be a leader. Then, you know, you should [00:33:00] probably be working solitary.
Dawn Brolin: For real. It's so true. And I think that, um, I think part of the consequences of the lack of empathy is the worst part, the consequences of someone who's in a leadership role. One of my favorite leaders ever. One of my favorite ever, Brad Smith. Brad Smith was someone who, if he saw you in the hallway [00:33:30] at a conference as the CEO of Intuit, would stop in his tracks, give you a big hug, ask you how your daughter's doing. And Brad used to do that all the time. Berlin. How's Emily? What's Emily doing? Oh, what is she like? Because he. I believe he truly cares. Look what he's doing at Marshall. Look what he's doing at Marshall University. Like, he's just. That is a leader who has empathy, who cares about other people by his actions more than his words. [00:34:00] And that is another element of what empathy is. When when somebody will stop and talk to you and actually listen, those types of things. That's the empathy empathetic portion, because they actually care about you. Yeah, they don't superficially care about you because it's going to give them an advantage, by the way. They care about you because of you. And that's important.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it's really validating. Um, when that happens, because I remember [00:34:30] when I first met you, you were you were so enthusiastic. And of course, you loved my my crazy car, my old checkered cab. And he was.
Dawn Brolin: Talking about that Tracy and I were just talking about. That was with her two weeks ago, where you really talked about you and your car.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. Um, but it was very like, I didn't know if you were just like that with everyone or if you were, you know, blowing sunshine up my, you know, where and it was, it went to to meet [00:35:00] you again. And have you remember me and and mention the car and tell somebody else the story about that was really validating to me. And sometimes what we need in, in this world, um, certainly in this industry, is just to have our, our selves validated because we're filled with self doubt a lot of the time. Sometimes we need our own emotions validated. Um, you had mentioned in the book that using empathy to validate someone's emotions [00:35:30] can actually be just as helpful to them as taking practical action. And I feel like you're illustrating that here.
Questian Telka: Well, so much of what we need is that often, right. Like, you know, when you call a friend or you call a colleague and you're sharing something that happened with you, oftentimes we're not necessarily looking for someone to give us a solution. What we really want for them, from them is to listen and validate those feelings with empathy and understanding. Such an important piece and and totally. [00:36:00]
Nancy McClelland: It can't only be about venting, but it has to in part be about venting. Um, which I think is a really good transition to let's talk about empathy, specifically through the lens of women, women in accounting. I found a couple of studies that I thought were really interesting. Um, one in particular was from 2022, found that women leaders are more likely to be penalized for displaying [00:36:30] emotions at work, including empathy, while men are more likely to be praised for the same exact behaviors because it's like unexpected or it's humanizing and, um, which just burns me up, I gotta say. I'll just be honest with that. That that was really frustrating. Um, so I wanted to ask specifically, you write about empathy as a leadership tool. But in our industry, as I probably in business more broadly, empathy [00:37:00] can be perceived very differently depending on who's showing it. So what does it mean for a woman to lead with empathy, and how does that get interpreted differently than when a man does it? And what can we do about it?
Dawn Brolin: Yeah. Well, certainly obviously awareness is critical. We've got to we've got to start talking more about it. We and this is something I think we've started to do a better job in our industry about mental health. We're starting to do a better job of recognizing that, you know [00:37:30] what? We need some help, man, because what we deal with with clients, we tend to sometimes be punching bags. We tend to, you know, we want to we're people pleasers. We're all these types of things for women. You know, from my perspective, I feel like we we kind of have this. We're just kind of born with this strange, loving, nurturing. That's just how we were developed. I believe that we have. That doesn't mean all of us practice [00:38:00] it, but we have it within us because there's some people that don't practice it, trust me. But but I do think that we have to change the narrative as much with empathy, whether it's a woman or a man, as much as the mental health, because mental health is very, very close to empathy in that, in that realm of if a man shows his vulnerability or admits that he's struggling with something and makes him weak. And I think because we are talking more about that scenario of mental health, [00:38:30] that this is another natural path of what we need to continue to talk about, because it's true. We're we're expected to have empathy because we're women. Well guess what? Again, you're not born with it. It breeds within you and as you go, Certainly. And we mentioned this and it's something that just is motherhood. It just is what it is like. I have two daughters. I when I coach softball, they [00:39:00] were my kids. Those were my kids. My kids. They didn't come out of my body, but they were my kids. I treated them like they were my own kids. And Emily's mom, they're not your kids. I'm like, I understand that, but I feel like they are sorry. You know.
Questian Telka: Like I'm gonna adopt them for now.
Dawn Brolin: Yeah. I mean, plus, I didn't have to pay for their college and stuff. Like, it was really awesome, right? Extra children.
Questian Telka: Without the extra, extra.
Dawn Brolin: Rent do anything. I just show up, they hug me. They love me, right?
Nancy McClelland: That's [00:39:30] called an.
Dawn Brolin: Aunt.
Nancy McClelland: By the way.
Dawn Brolin: It's an aunt. That's right. That's for sure.
Nancy McClelland: I return them when I'm done with them.
Questian Telka: Well, and this, this point that you're making kind of brings up another study that we have, which is, according to a Deloitte 2023 report on women at work, 51% of women say they're expected to manage team wellbeing, compared to only 27% of men. And many report this expectation leads them to feel an increased level of burnout [00:40:00] and lower job satisfaction.
Dawn Brolin: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: It's an emotional load.
Questian Telka: I feel like this. It is. And you know, when I think back to working at a bigger firm and smaller now. So I would I would do this myself. But I think about things like birthday gifts for colleagues or cards that have to be signed or someone's ill and they need to be sent flowers or, you know, the list goes on and on and on. It often fell on me, probably [00:40:30] because I was the most empathetic. And often I'm the one who was thinking of it, or some other woman in my group. The men were never the ones who were driving those situations, and making sure that that everyone was taken care of is. As I always seemed to fall on a woman.
Nancy McClelland: I gotta tell you, I'm not laughing at your situation, okay? I'm sitting over here laughing to myself because one of my favorite cards. It's from bald Guy. Greetings. He. [00:41:00] He cracks me up. One of my favorite cards says happy birthday from us. And it's a a man and a woman on the front. And you open it up and it says, the card says from us, but I think, you know, who went out and bought the card and wrote it and addressed it, and who just put the stamp on it. My husband and.
Dawn Brolin: Me.
Nancy McClelland: Know, you know, he's the most we have different love languages. We have different love languages. And [00:41:30] yes, question what you just said. That's why I was over here giggling. I wasn't laughing at how hard that must have been, but because it's so true.
Dawn Brolin: Yeah, well go ahead. Sorry.
Questian Telka: No, I was just agreeing and I was going to say I would be surprised if anybody else even put the stamp on.
Dawn Brolin: That's awesome. But, you know, I think about men in our industry, and I think and always coming in front of mine is Randy Crabtree, a man [00:42:00] who shows empathy to others. There's so many.
Questian Telka: We love Randy.
Dawn Brolin: I mean, you have to love Randy you just you.
Dawn Brolin: But I think that I think a lot of the men in our industry get get shorted at how empathetic they actually are. And and some of them aren't even aware that they are empathetic. They just that's that they built that empathy through relationships in their life or however, you know, even, I'm sure, ways that they've been treated back in the day. Um, and how [00:42:30] they've had to go through stuff, too. And so I think, again, just continuing the conversation of how important empathy is in leadership because we're hurt. Some people are out there hurting, really hurting people without even knowing it.
Questian Telka: Without even knowing.
Dawn Brolin: I don't think all of it's intentional. I don't think it's an intentional thing, but I think being self aware is the message we've got. Hey, listen how you talk to this person and how you talk to that person might be negatively affecting them. [00:43:00] And until you're willing, because here it's all just it's all about mindset. Until you're willing to decide that. Yeah. You know what? Berlin. You might be right about something. And yeah, I probably should have a little bit more self aware about the way I talk to people or the way I respond or how I make decisions. You're right. I need to start that. If we can get five people to do that, people, five people to say, yeah, you know what? I, I probably should do some inner inner lookings [00:43:30] at the way I am. And it's not easy to do you. I mean, everybody wants to think they're good people, and I don't believe me. There are a bunch of good people, but you can be a good person and still be not empathetic. And I think that that's the difference. That people don't realize that there is empathy is intentional. It's not. It's not something you just get going to school. You become as a person an empathetic person. And I think there are more men than we realize that are empathetic. [00:44:00] They're just not being intentional about it.
Questian Telka: You know, it's interesting you say that because as we've been working through this podcast, there's a very close male friend of mine who's been listening and is a colleague of all of ours and who's been listening to it. And he said to me, and this is going to be an episode, because he brought this up, a future episode that he said, I really want to help women in the field. [00:44:30] I really want to help them get into leadership roles. I know there's a problem, but I don't really understand what it is. And I, you know, if you can help me understand what it is and tell me what I can do, then I'm here for it.
Nancy McClelland: And that's empathy. That is empathy right there. And it's and it's cognitive empathy. It's not emotional empathy because he's not feeling what we feel, but he's looking at what's happening and saying, I recognize logically and.
Questian Telka: He's.
Nancy McClelland: Listening. There is a problem. He's listening. He wants to put himself [00:45:00] in our shoes. Are we talking about Mike pain? Because if so, let's just give him credit for that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, we're talking about Mike pain.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Okay, Mike, we love you.
Questian Telka: We love you, Mike.
Nancy McClelland: We love. You. That's beautiful
Nancy McClelland: Totally, totally. So to to go back to what you were saying about about, you know, how big hearted you are and how, like, men may might not realize it, and it needs to be cultivated. More women may come to it more naturally, but then they're at risk of [00:45:30] burning out because they're taking care of other people all the time. Who cares for the caregiver? And this. This makes me think of a quote, another quote of yours from the book, which is something. When I read it, I was like, yep, that sounds like Dawn. You said people think that because I keep going, I don't hurt. Let me be very clear. I hurt and I keep going. [00:46:00] So let's talk a little bit about about caring for the caregiver and about what it what it means to to have empathy for other people but not recognize that they want to have it for us as well.
Dawn Brolin: That's another cognitive practice that you have to that you have to do. I know for myself, and Nancy knows this about me very, very well. I'm that person who wants to give to everyone else, and I don't want to bother anybody else with [00:46:30] my stuff. But you're right. People do. Everybody wants to have. Everybody wants to be treated with empathy. Everybody does deep down. I'm not a big fan of being treated like a piece of garbage. I'm just not a big fan of somebody treating me like that. I will say that.
Nancy McClelland: News flash, news flash.
Dawn Brolin: Please don't treat me like crap.
Dawn Brolin: So the way I look at it is that I have to practice the ability for me to allow someone else to give me that empathy, and for me to open some [00:47:00] space in my soul. Right. To to allow other people to care for me. And it's not easy. You know, Nancy and Nancy's taught me a lot about that. I think you're probably the person who has taught me the most about how I have to allow that, right?
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, what a huge compliment and honor was that because of the when we were doing the vulnerability as a strength panel for bridging the gap.
Dawn Brolin: A whole bunch of stuff, there's, you know, we're on WhatsApp together on a regular basis and you're you're not [00:47:30] you don't just do it with me. You do it with other people. So that's like so I've learned a lot of that for myself through you and realized, like, you know, I made a post on Mother's Day about if you have a kid who doesn't, you know, talk to you doesn't mean you're a bad mom. So I just made this post about it, and Kelly Parks called me the next day. Got to give Kelly Parks a shout out.
Dawn Brolin: Love, Kelly. Kelly Park,
Nancy McClelland: Kelly. We love you.
Dawn Brolin: I mean.Kelly Kelly [00:48:00] in that moment called me to say, hey, I just want to let you know that I read that post. It resonated with me. Um, I want to give you some hope. I want this now. Whatever. She was just awesome. Normally, I would have been like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kelly. Okay, great. Thanks. I love you, man. Thanks for calling. Bang. Hang up the phone. Right. That's why we used to hang the phone up. By the way, for those of you who are young, it was a phone and you would hang it up. Now we just push a button. But it was different back then. So I [00:48:30] let myself listen to what Kelly had to say and gave. I put, I guess I gave some space in my soul to say wow, like that was a big deal to me, that Kelly took the time. That was an empathetic move for Kelly.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Dawn Brolin: And I and I let that in and that I don't normally do that. Nancy. I don't normally do that.
Nancy McClelland: This is what Don and I were talking about last, last year when we were preparing for this vulnerability as a strength panel that that I moderated at Bridging the Gap. [00:49:00] I gave the panelists our superheroes. I gave y'all a really deeply invasive set of questions to answer, and you were all really honest and open and vulnerable. You illustrated the topic perfectly, and you said at one point in there that I don't want to burden others with my we'll say crap. And, um, and my response was, would you want me to hide my pain to protect you. [00:49:30] And you were like, of course not. I love you and want to help you. It's an honor. It's an honor to have you turn to me when I need help. And I was like, um. Don, are you listening? Ever occurred to you that you would be showing me and all of the others in your life who love you the same respect you are showing them? Respect? When we want to be empathetic to you, we want to help you. So if you ask us for help, [00:50:00] it's an honor to us and kind of switching that around in the opposite direction. But it's so.
Questian Telka: True. I mean, I feel the same way as Don does, like, you know, even accepting empathy, accepting help, like when my children were ill or my not my children, my child was ill is just it's a very difficult thing, especially if you're used to being independent and being the one who's caring for everybody else all the time. It's [00:50:30] really difficult to let somebody take care of you.
Dawn Brolin: And you know what? It's so funny you say that question because we're talking about everyone needs to give each other more empathy. And then there's those of us who are like, I don't need it. Don't worry about me. It's like, you know, what are we doing here? Yeah, but it's so true because you can be empathetic giver. But if there's no receiver of it where there's no. Yes. Like it's like that's that's like terrible for me. Who wants to be empathetic for people. And I [00:51:00] truly care about people. And they're just like, ah, whatever. Brolin. And it's like, well, then it wouldn't be the purpose of me. Like, now I'm questioning myself. Like, then you're like, everything's all confusing. So we got to keep it simple, folks. Right. We got to go through the cognitive and the emotional.
Nancy McClelland: Let us in.
Questian Telka: Let us get an accept. Yeah. Give an accept empathy.
Dawn Brolin: Boy, is that hard.
Nancy McClelland: And on the other side of that, um, you know something you talk about a lot in the book. We haven't touched as much on this today because we only have so much time. But, you know, [00:51:30] we also have to be really careful that that we're going to assume the worst of other people and that we're not going to get that empathy because then we're always self-protecting, right? Then we're we're, um, my, my therapist and I've been working on how I can give others what she calls the most generous interpretation of their words and actions and not assume, you know, benefit of the doubt. It's a way of saying benefit of the doubt. And one of my favorite poems is Desiderata by Max Ehrmann. And there was a quote in it that I thought [00:52:00] of when I was reading your book, Dawn, which is, um, exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery, but let not blind you to what virtue there is. Many people strive for high ideals and everywhere. Life is full of heroism. So walking that line Between being empathetic, accepting empathy, worried that [00:52:30] you're going to get the worst of people, protecting yourself in the situation where you might not be getting empathy or you might be the opposite. This is Dawn. This is a lot.
Dawn Brolin: It's a it's heavy. This is heavy stuff. And it's it's interesting too, because I was like, and this is another really difficult thing that I'm really working on. I'm like, oh, I can't believe someone bought the book, uh, and even read it. But it was even the bigger thing. Someone actually read it. It was like wild to me and my like, I always am apologizing [00:53:00] like, tell me feedback. Was it good? Is it, is it, you know, whatever. And that's a similar response to the empathy is like we're always trying to like we take steps back and we're like, oh, but wait. And that's where the vulnerability part is really hard. It's like, I'm going to write this book. I'm going to put it out there and I'm going to look like an idiot. And it's like, but I know this message is important. So you you fight with yourself. You fight with yourself to to be able to give the empathy and also receive the empathy. And it's a this is heavy vulnerability, [00:53:30] all that stuff. This stuff's heavy. But you know what? Again, the more we talk about it, the more we make it okay, the more we make it okay to understand that empathy is important. It's okay to have emotion around it. It's okay to have these this vulnerability and this being scared of it. But the more we talk about it, the more comfortable we all become. I think the better we all together will will make this industry matter. [00:54:00] And that's where she counts 100%.
Speaker6: Oh I love that. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Well, we hope that listeners feel like they learned a bit about the importance of building and celebrating empathy in our profession. Thank you so much, Dawn. I, I love you too.
Dawn Brolin: I just.
Nancy McClelland: Have so.
Dawn Brolin: Much respect for both of you. And, like, I just love what you're doing. I love what you're doing. And keep up the good work because we [00:54:30] all need to hear it.
Nancy McClelland: Well you too. Where can we find out more about you and your work? Tell us. Tell us how to get more of this.
Dawn Brolin: Yeah, more, more, more. Um, so obviously LinkedIn is the best. It's easiest. It's. The messages are all right there. I can respond to them very easy. It's one method that way I'm not coming 80 different ways. But I of course have the designated motivator website. If you're interested in the accounting side of Dawn Brolin is Dawn Brolin. Com all the things with how I'm trying to help people make a firm of their dreams. [00:55:00] Um, and that's something that I'm very passionate about, helping people. And, you know, I'm living a firm of my dreams right now, and I play golf a couple, two, three times a week. I'm going on my boat and I'm helping my clients at the same time. So I'm I'm loving life and I'm really appreciative of the two of you. And I can't wait to see both of you at all the conferences?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Can't wait. Coming up so soon?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. We're we're so. Can't wait to hug you. Can't wait to hug you.
Dawn Brolin: James.
Questian Telka: We [00:55:30] appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing all this goodness with us. This is amazing. Um, and we'd also like to ask listeners to follow our She Accounts Podcast LinkedIn page and join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode a time when empathy or the absence of empathy has shaped your experience at work.
Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Audre Lorde. This one, this [00:56:00] one really made me all tingly. Caring for others doesn't make you weak. It makes you dangerous to systems built on indifference.
Dawn Brolin: Love it.
Questian Telka: True. Thanks for being here with us on She Counts, The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, I am thrilled because that is exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: So [00:56:30] that you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, and any other resource will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please be sure to subscribe and also leave us a review, because it really helps other people be able to find the podcast and also share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: Many thanks again to our amazing guest, Dawn Brolin. We are [00:57:00] so glad you could join us today. Thank you my friend, and we'll see everyone in two weeks.
Questian Telka: Thank you so much.