There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts. The Real talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts.Question Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure [00:00:30] it out alone.
Questian Telka: Special thanks to our sponsors, forward Lee Justine Lackey's, the Nest and Keeper, for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking and no one is saying.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called Still Under Glass.
Questian Telka: And today we're talking about a topic that really impacts all of us why women are still underrepresented in firm leadership and what real [00:01:00] practical changes can help us close that gap. We're not just going to name the problem, we're offering examples, solutions, and calling two firm leaders to make intentional cultural shifts.
Nancy McClelland: Now, the last few episodes were highly emotionally charged and deeply personal, which is awesome. And we've been incredibly grateful for the beautiful and encouraging feedback we've received. It's been [00:01:30] really heartwarming. We're so glad these episodes are resonating with you, and that we're starting to help women in accounting feel less alone. And we also need a break from the intensity sometimes. So today we are digging into the data and discussing actionable insights. We love launching each episode with a story question what you got?
Questian Telka: Well, today the real story is in the data. As [00:02:00] women, we already know what the data is going to confirm for us, but we want to share it, and we really want to make sure that men listening, hear the data and our stories and examples that are kind of going to follow that data and the solutions that we're going to talk about. But just to give some perspective, women earn 50% of accounting degrees and make up half of new CPAs, but only 19% of CPA firm partners are actually women. [00:02:30]
Nancy McClelland: Wow. Something's happening between entering the industry. And once they're getting promoted to partnership, there's a gap there.
Questian Telka: There's a gap. There's a lot of things happening. And so first we have to recognize that there's a gap. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Right. And you know, we should point out we we're aware that this isn't just accounting Across business sectors, 14% of executive [00:03:00] officer roles are held by women so that those those data are lining up with each other pretty well. It's not only accounting where this is a problem.
Questian Telka: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, and I guess in accounting, one of the positive things we can say is that the data is a little bit better than it is across the board in all executive officer roles, but.
Nancy McClelland: At least we're starting out at 5050.
Questian Telka: Right? And there's still a lot of work to do. So I think that the [00:03:30] issue is really a structural issue. It's not a talent issue. Right. We know that we have 50% of women or 50% of CPAs are women. We know that they're talented. I think the issue is that the profession is losing women mid-career, and it's because not because they aren't capable, but because the system really isn't designed for us to stay and [00:04:00] it's really not designed for us to lead.
Nancy McClelland: So what's happening?
Questian Telka: Well, I think, you know, let's look back at our one of our earlier episodes for those who tuned in. Women are really citing a high level of burnout. Our work environments are inflexible. Now, I would say that they're probably more flexible now than they have been in past, of course, but still not flexible enough. And we're going to talk about some of the ways that they aren't. There's [00:04:30] a lack of sponsorship, which means men showing up to help elevate women into positions of leadership and then some.
Nancy McClelland: You mean using their privilege to their, like, inborn privilege to show up for women?
Questian Telka: Yes. Correct. That's what we want. We want that sponsorship and we need it. And I think in order for us to get there, part of the reason [00:05:00] we're doing this episode is because it needs to be acknowledged. And I actually had a colleague, a male colleague say to me, and I've shared this recently in another episode, that it's not that he really wants to help, and he really wants to put forward positive change in the industry. But the problem is that he doesn't understand what the issues are. What are the problems that we as women are facing and how he can help? So that's [00:05:30] that's some of what we want to really dive into.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, absolutely. And also, you had mentioned microaggressions as being one of the things that is, I think, a real challenge for women. And and I would add that to the list of things that men don't know are going on, that if they knew, a lot of them would step up and say something. If we if we educated them and, um, if they knew that the solution to that was to call [00:06:00] it out in real time. We'll get back to that a little bit later. But I wanted to add microaggressions to that list of of things that are things that are getting in the way between the 50% and the 19%.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Of course. And we're going to give a lot of those examples, right. We're going to talk about what those things are that are, that are actually taking place and happening. And I think that additionally, firm leadership doesn't often see what the problem is, especially [00:06:30] if the retention issues are considered personal choices. Things like.
Nancy McClelland: It's pretty easy to just kind of quietly chalk that up. Oh, she decided to leave because she wanted to, let's say, focus on family.
Questian Telka: Exactly. Like have a baby goes, you know, has maternity leave and then chooses not to come back. And that's a personal choice, but you have to ask yourself the deeper questions. Why? Why are women, women who have spent all this time gaining these certifications, [00:07:00] going to school? Why are they choosing to leave instead of staying and also parenting? Because I think a lot of women do find value in being a professional and want to have both.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. But when when women are in general usually presumed to be caregivers in their family, whether that's children or caring for elderly family members, having a gap in that career experience really negatively impacts their [00:07:30] progression. And so coming back afterwards, it's not celebrated as women having a whole new set of experiences, um, that can add to the diversity of thought in the firm, but rather, oh, she's out of touch, she's out of practice. She's, you know, it's viewed negatively. Yes. Rather than being.
Questian Telka: That's right. Like culturally we view it negatively. I mean, I don't know anybody. I don't know about anyone else. I can only [00:08:00] speak for me personally, but my personal family struggles that I have gone through the medical situation with my son have made me a much more resilient individual and a more compassionate person and leader, and overall have made me better at my work and at my job.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. I well and I'll you know, we talked about my medical issues. I was actually a pretty harsh human being. I [00:08:30] would describe myself that way until I went through my medical, um, crisis and realized how many people are suffering in silence and have invisible struggles. Um, my, my level of compassion and my ability to support my team members Verse, and to understand where my clients are coming from, um, is so much better than it was before. I'm a much better leader for my struggles, for my time that I had to spend not [00:09:00] working. So question. We know that the first step is acknowledging that the gap exists. We've got a lot of bias to unlearn, and we've got a lot of culture to rebuild. But we can't do that if we don't recognize that the bias is there in the first place.
Questian Telka: Yeah, we absolutely have to recognize the bias. And I think the one of the ways that we can do that is we're going to share some of our experiences, what [00:09:30] some of the bias is and then some of the data behind it. A lot of firms have really good intentions, but intention will not change the outcomes. So we need to actually understand and make an effort and do make Take action with the intention.
Nancy McClelland: So what kind of role do these unconscious biases play?
Questian Telka: Unconscious bias plays a huge role. One example [00:10:00] of something that I personally have experienced a number of times in meetings is being interrupted by my male counterparts a lot. And we know that I, I have um, I was also taught when I was very young not to interrupt.
Questian Telka: So.
Nancy McClelland: I wasn't.
Questian Telka: When.A man does. So when I'm interrupted, I generally tend to [00:10:30] back off myself. But I also feel like I get interrupted a lot in meetings with men. And a study has actually found and shown that, on average, men tend to interrupt women to 2.5 times more than women interrupt men.
Nancy McClelland: Wow, that stat does not apply to me. But that is also not surprising given the women I.
Questian Telka: Well, [00:11:00] and.
Nancy McClelland: That's a good.
Questian Telka: Point that you have that these do not apply to everyone. Right. This is not all men interrupt. Not all women don't interrupt. This is the average. That's correct. So we can't make a blanket statement about everybody. But that's something that I've really experienced. And I think when you talk to a lot of women, they will tell you that they have that experience as well. So making sure that when in a meeting they're given space.
Nancy McClelland: Um, I also want you to talk about something that, um, is [00:11:30] called the motherhood penalty and the fatherhood bonus. What is that?
Questian Telka: So this is the assumption that a working mom. So overall. Right, that a working mom wouldn't want a high profile career and or wouldn't be capable of it because she's a working mom that she may not want to, or be as capable of having a position in leadership or of or of authority. Mothers are often [00:12:00] assumed to be less committed to their work, while fathers are praised for being family men.
Nancy McClelland: So oh my gosh, I see that all the time.
Questian Telka: I have a funny story about that, actually.
Nancy McClelland: All right, tell me.
Questian Telka: My my ex-husband was. And this isn't work related. It's personal. But my ex-husband was taking my son and his cousin to a playground one day, and his brother said, and I was going shopping with my sister in law. And his brother [00:12:30] said to him, how do you feel about them going shopping? And you have to babysit the kids? And he actually said to them, to his credit, yeah, exactly right. I'm not babysitting. This is my child and my nephew and.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Nancy McClelland: So babysitting?
Questian Telka: Yeah, exactly.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Babysitting your own child.
Nancy McClelland: Well, you know,
Questian Telka: There's this conception.
Nancy McClelland: Kudos to your ex.
Nancy McClelland: Because that's actually. [00:13:00] That was the correct response.
Questian Telka: Absolutely. And I think there is this, this experience that many women often have. And they will say that is the case. They feel as though they are penalized for being a mother. But men are often praised for being fathers. And oh, you, you know, you you took your kids to these, uh, to camp or you're running them around or you're watching them with their kid, with their friends and playing [00:13:30] outside or whatever it is that the fathers are doing. If they're putting in a lot of effort, it's seen as some extra thing that they are doing. Whereas, yeah, it's just parenting, right?
Nancy McClelland: Robin Williams actually did a great skit for kids album called Free to Be a Family. Um, where it's called it's called The Day the Dad Made Toast, and it is all about that. And if you Google that, it's so good. He does all the voices in the story. You definitely [00:14:00] have to listen to it. The day dad made toast. Um, so I actually have some data to support the stuff that you're talking about. So I'm going to cite a few, uh, studies here. So, um, mothers were considered to be 12 percentage points less committed to their jobs than non-mothers, while fathers were perceived as being five percentage points more committed than non fathers. And compared to childless men, mothers [00:14:30] were rated 6.4 percentage points lower with regard to commitment, and this is reflected in salaries. Mothers were recommended a 7.9% lower starting salary than Non-mothers, and that is 8.6% lower than the recommended starting salary for fathers. So it's that's kind of I don't know. To me, that's mind blowing to see it. So obviously in the data and among men that trend is actually reversed. [00:15:00] And fathers were offered a significantly higher starting salary than childless men. So it's.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Which it's I mean, it's unbelievable. It's believable because we've experienced it, but it's really unbelievable when you see it in the data. And this was actually a study done by Harvard as well. So you know, a reputable source also. And so I think it's it's really a sad situation that there is a bias [00:15:30] there. And I think we need to just be really mindful of that and make an effort at change in this area.
Nancy McClelland: Do you ever notice how a woman is always asked to be the secretary or note taker for meetings also. Does that I mean, because that's another one where I feel like it's a it's I don't know that I would call that it's not on the same level, and I don't even know that it's a microaggression, but it is sort of that assumption of, uh, duty to serve. Uh, [00:16:00] that is definitely related, I think, to, to our perception of women in motherhood and caregivers.
Questian Telka: Yeah. When I working in an office, it was somebody's birthday. And it's like, who is the person that's always organizing the lunch or buying the birthday card? We're going to be in an equivalent role with a male colleague, and they're not the ones typically that are assumed to do it. And yes, by the way, to your question about in meetings, the note taker, in my experience, is typically ends [00:16:30] up being a woman. So there are just these assumptions that are made that that's our role roll and it isn't.
Nancy McClelland: I know that in a room full of professionals, and we generally assume that the woman is the assistant. Even myself, you know, these are again, these are deep seated cultural biases. So, you know, it's it's hard to see them in ourselves. But, um, I presume when I hear that somebody is a doctor, I, I picture [00:17:00] somebody who is a male. For example, when most people picture a CPA, they think of a male, right? Um, so that's that's definitely these are, these are these go deep and they're societal. And we shouldn't necessarily be beating ourselves up about it. But we have to notice that. And I know that something that you've talked about in your personal experience when you were at a CPA firm, is that when the men were receiving feedback, it was very actionable and it was very [00:17:30] tied to growth. And, you know, so like what here here are the things you need to do to get to the next level. Whereas women were getting really vague feedback. You're doing great. Just keep it up. Which is very presuming you're going to stay in their place.
Questian Telka: And it kind of feels condescending.
Nancy McClelland: Um, and also, women of color have a much harder time. I think it's important to mention that they have a harder time [00:18:00] with this than than even we do as white women, because there are many different kinds of privilege. And, um, so women will be excluded or undervalued because they don't look like leadership or they don't sound like leadership. And that is just like the double down on that when it's women of color. And this gets disguised sometimes when we say she's just not quite [00:18:30] the right fit. That's a really easy way to sort of mask that I can't put my finger on it sort of thing.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And our brains are wired through years of conditioning for there to be bias. And it's not. It doesn't. I've mentioned this before. It doesn't make someone a bad person. It's not. It's not bad that that that it is that way. [00:19:00] It just needs to be acknowledged and changed and it can be unlearned. That's what's really incredible because our our brains have so much plasticity through on into our 70s that we can change our biases if we are paying attention to them. So it needs to be started with awareness, and leadership really needs to model better behaviors. [00:19:30]
Nancy McClelland: So I feel like you're trying to tell me that you really can't teach an old dog new tricks?
Questian Telka: Yes, that's right. We really can't teach an old dog new tricks. Which, it's funny that that's a saying, but, um, it's an inaccurate one, right? Like when they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Yes you can. The science proves it.
Nancy McClelland: Maybe they didn't. Maybe they didn't know about neuroplasticity and unlearning when they. [00:20:00] When that phrase became popular. Well, let's move from mindset to mechanics. Let's. I want to talk about what real change looks like in action.
Questian Telka: I think that's a great idea. Many firms still reward visibility and hours logged. And I think we really need to consider who is making an impact. Not just who is leaving the office last and who has bragging rights. Because [00:20:30] I worked seven days this week and somebody else only worked six days this week. It's also a cultural perception. I believe in the US that saying you worked this extreme number of hours has become some sort of bragging, right? And we really kind of need to reverse that mentality as well. The bragging should be I'm still hugely successful, and I've only had to work ten hours this week.
Nancy McClelland: Because I'm so.
Questian Telka: Efficient. [00:21:00]
Nancy McClelland: And so intelligent and so organized and yes, absolutely, I. We try in our firm to um, although because all of our team members are part time, we do pay hourly. We try to emphasize results over the hours. We're trying to reward the quality of the work and the leadership, the innovation, the client relationships, the taking initiative. Those are things where I'm [00:21:30] just like, I don't care when this happens. I whether it's, you know, after you've put the kids to bed and now you have your focus, or when you wake up on Saturday and your, you know, grand the grandparents are, you know, taking the kids somewhere and that's when you have time to where I don't care when it is, it's what you're doing that I'm going to respond to. And that's that's what helps people move up through, I guess I would call it the ranks, [00:22:00] although we're not a very hierarchical company. Um, but I would like to see that. I would like to see that in both small and large firms.
Questian Telka: I've also heard that some firms will, rather than, you know, it being an hour tracking type of situation, they're doing things like a revenue share, right. So there's a client. And that's a huge motivator for an employee as well. If they're bringing them on board and they're doing some sort of a revenue share, and then you're less focused on [00:22:30] the hours that they're working. It's just the value and the quality of the work and their being there. There's a benefit outside of just here's the amount you're receiving per hour to continue to work, you know, to build that client relationship and absolutely yeah. Grow the revenue. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So well, you know, we've experimented with that a couple of times on, on individual projects and it's it's gone. Well, you're sort of inspiring me to go back to that [00:23:00] and see if there's a way to put that.
Questian Telka: Into.
Nancy McClelland: Non project work. Let's also talk about representation and leadership. I know we've talked about this on other podcasts so we won't spend a bunch of time on it. But um how how do we get more representation. Right. You need to you need to see somebody who looks like you in a position of leadership in order to recognize that you can do that yourself.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And it takes doing an audit and taking a look at your leadership pipeline. Who's being groomed? Why [00:23:30] are they being groomed? And making sure that your pipeline to leadership roles is equitable. And then setting the expectation that having representation matters. And that's part of your culture.
Nancy McClelland: And I got to add something to this. Don't wait for women to ask for a promotion, because women are far less likely to ask because they are waiting to be recognized. So intentionally promote [00:24:00] women. Just because they're not asking for that promotion doesn't mean they're not qualified for it. And they don't deserve it. They're simply much, much, much less likely to go for it.
Questian Telka: And that's really goes back to what we were saying about sponsorship. Yes. Right. So we're looking for sponsorship as well as mentorship. Mentorship is amazing and hugely helpful. And we really discussed that on an earlier episode, but sponsorship helps [00:24:30] move the career forward. Right. So women need advocates for sponsorship or just need advocates in general, even when they're not in the room. So people who will promote them, as you were saying, without them being asked, and give them big clients and big opportunities.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the important things there is that we're we're talking about them when they're [00:25:00] not even there. Right? Like, I know we already did a full episode on mentorship, so go check that out. Today we're talking about action, not advice. Um, but one of the things that we can do is to say, I have an idea for somebody who would be perfect for that client. We should plug her into this or, you know, your your colleagues, if an opportunity isn't right for you, plugging in a colleague who might be right for that opportunity. I know that's something I do a lot in the world of public speaking. [00:25:30]
Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting that you said that because as you were before, you said I do that in the world of public speaking. That's exactly what was going through my mind. We do this with our colleagues. Yes. Yeah. When we're teaching or speaking engagements for bringing guests onto the podcast or recommending them for, for other advisory boards and things like that. So we're always kind of doing that. I think [00:26:00] you and I a lot especially and, um, I mean, I know that you do it very often because you've done it for me several times.
Nancy McClelland: So.
Questian Telka: Um. Another really important thing that we need to keep in mind is flexibility. So real flexibility isn't just a policy, it's putting it in practice. So don't say that you're going to give unlimited vacation, or you're going to give parental and maternity leave or a flexible schedule, [00:26:30] and then expect your employees not to use it or create a culture where it's not utilized.
Nancy McClelland: So can I share a story? Should I gotta share a story about a friend? All right. So a friend of mine who will remain nameless, but she listens to this podcast so she knows who I'm talking about. She's a lawyer. And, um, her daughter, when she was a teenager, went through a really awful, scary time and, um, had [00:27:00] a lot of, of health issues. And my friend needed to spend a lot of time with her. She also had a son who was a couple years younger, so she and she was raising the kids on her own. And, and I don't want to say on her own because her brother and his two kids live next door and they're all very supportive to each other. But she didn't have a partner. And, um. God, she's.
Questian Telka: Still a single mom, right? Yeah, totally. And ultimately, the responsibility fell to her.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely, [00:27:30] absolutely. And so she negotiated with her company to take a one quarter pay cut. It was either one fifth or one quarter, but she took a huge pay cut so that she could spend less time at work. And at that point, I think she went from spending like 100 million gazillion bajillion hours to like only 100 million, billion, billion and a half or something. [00:28:00] It was it was ridiculous to me because she was clearly working just as hard, but she was working at home. She was clearly just as results oriented because she's absolutely dedicated to her clients and the work that she does. Um, none of that changed. She got results done. It's not like she participated any less. She was just doing fewer hours. And she was doing a lot of those hours from [00:28:30] home where she could not be seen doing her work. But that pay cut, that pay cut, stuck. Future raises were based on her prior amount that she was making. And I just I to this day, it just infuriates me that that was something that she had to negotiate for, as opposed to a different friend of of mine who because it doesn't work like this in all firms, but a different friend of mine who was taking care of her parents and her boss was just like, um, also a [00:29:00] man, uh, was like, look, you you participate and you contribute more than anybody here. I know you'll get the work done. Take whatever time you need, right. Completely different situations. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. And that's so important. The flexibility doesn't mean. And having those commitments for family, etc. doesn't mean that you're a less capable person. But it is so common [00:29:30] to assume that, oh, you need that flexibility that you're not going to be.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, flexibility does not mean lower levels of contribution and lower commitment. It simply doesn't. Those two are not things that should be equated. Um, in not that's not just my opinion. Like so far we're seeing the data play out, uh, in this.
Questian Telka: Well, and think about how many. So we have a pipeline issue. Think about how many women who [00:30:00] could fill some of these roles that are willing to work part time. So. So maybe they want to spend less time at work. They do want to be at home and be a more present parent, and they want to work part time. But most firms will not hire someone in a part time. Most larger firms will not hire somebody in a part time role like that. They want full time plus, right? Which 60 plus hours a week. So we could be hiring [00:30:30] more women who are highly competent, highly skilled, who have taken the time off of work, who've stopped working in order entirely, stopped working entirely. That's part of the reason that I stopped working entirely. I'm still fully competent, still did an excellent job. Feel like I still do, but left the place that I was working because I wanted to be able to be with my [00:31:00] son some of the time, and there was no flexibility for being in a full time versus part time role.
Nancy McClelland: I want to make a plug for Luma accounting. L u m a. Kim Kelleher of Luma Accounting is working with, I believe, Rebecca Driscoll from the collaboration Room. And together they're starting a project where it's, um, women who are in the situation that you're describing that are looking for flexible remote work and employers. [00:31:30] This is all in accounting. Uh, employers who are wanting to hire that kind of highly capable part time work. And, um, that is how that she and her business partner have set up their company. Uh, but they're actually creating a resource where you can sign up either as a worker or an employer. Um, and I don't remember the name of it, but I will make sure to put it in the show notes. It's it's very new. But if you, um, if you Google Luma Accounting [00:32:00] Kim Kelleher and follow her on LinkedIn, she's just an incredible human being. Um, very excited that we get to see her at scaling new heights coming up soon. Um, but that is a great example of like, hey, we see a problem, we're going to create a solution, right? Connecting the the employers and the employees are exactly in the situation that you're describing.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And also I think employers being open to it. It's [00:32:30] like consider being open to having somebody work less hours or have that flexibility and not, you know, oh, we have to be 60 hours or even 40 hours. Some people may just be able to do 30 and giving them that option.
Nancy McClelland: My EA does approximately 10 to 15 hours a week, and that's what she can give me. And I've made it clear to her, you are so amazing, and I will always have enough work for you to do more hours if you can. Um, but I'll [00:33:00] take what I can get because you're you're that great, right? So. And she gets she gets the job done. You know, she's highly efficient because she knows that her time for working is limited. And I truly appreciate that. Let's talk next about pay equity. This is yes, I think, a really obvious one that we but that we have not touched on yet. So let's make sure that we talk about closing that gender pay gap. How do we how do we even start? [00:33:30]
Questian Telka: Yeah. One thing that comes to mind for me that I think is really important is when you are hiring employees in general, but especially women when you're trying to close the pay gap is not asking what their prior salary was. Should be really hiring based off of the role that you're filling and what credentials that you're that you're looking for. Because if you're looking at someone's prior salary in order to make a judgment [00:34:00] and women are historically paid less than men, then it's going to perpetuate the problem. Absolutely. Continue the gender pay gap. Yes. So to me, that's one of the biggest things that we can do moving forward to make that change. What do you think?
Nancy McClelland: I totally, absolutely, completely agree with you. Um, another thing that I would like to point out that is related to that is that, um, in general, when people are applying for a position [00:34:30] and they're asked what their prior salary was, men will inflate that. They will say they were getting paid more than they actually were and women will not. And I don't I are.
Questian Telka: Honest.
Nancy McClelland: I well, I don't know if that's um, because they're afraid of getting caught or if it would never occur to them to do that in the first place. I don't know what the reasons behind that are.
Questian Telka: Less risk.
Nancy McClelland: Averse, that that tends to happen. So keep that in mind if you are asking for that data, that what [00:35:00] you're looking at may not be honest, and it's going to be honest in a different honest, dishonest, in a different ratio in general, on average, uh, when you're talking about that that gender difference there.
Questian Telka: That's so interesting.
Nancy McClelland: Isn't that interesting? I also think that, um, one of the things that I mean, we talk about transparency and pay. How many of us are actually transparent? How many of us talk with our friends and our our comfortable [00:35:30] saying out loud, here is what I make. It's very taboo. And I think that closing the gender pay gap, one of the things that would help is if we just de taboo ized that, um, I know that that's not a word, but it is now. Let's talk. Let's talk about compensation. Let's talk about it out loud. Let's make that something that's not secret, especially within and among comparable roles. So.
Questian Telka: Um, [00:36:00] I.
Nancy McClelland: Agree, you do.
Questian Telka: Within an organization. Yeah. Within an organization. Absolutely. Sharing what the compensation is for, for for a particular role. I don't think it needs to be. It's like, yes, it can be out in the open in personal conversations, but we really need to make it out in the open internally.
Nancy McClelland: You mean like in a formalized, a formalized way where, like the company says this, this role has this range. [00:36:30]
Questian Telka: And yeah, in a formalized.
Nancy McClelland: So that everybody knows. That's right. Okay.
Questian Telka: Everybody knows. Yeah. This is what the range is. And I wouldn't go so far as saying that we publish everyone's salaries. Although I will say that this is interesting. So state I don't know if it's just universities, but I know that some states, state run organizations like universities do publish the pay [00:37:00] of their employees.
Nancy McClelland: When I was studying human resources, uh, everything that I learned about this was leaning into the more you can share, the better. And what, um, healthy like some of the healthiest companies in the world are actually, you know, where people say, uh, best company to work for that kind of thing when I'm talking about healthy companies, that's what I mean. They actually do share all of that information. [00:37:30] And payroll is completely a matter of public record, which stuns me because that is not generally accepted in our society. But everything that I learned when I was studying HR pointed to. The more information you can share about this in your organization, the better.
Questian Telka: I think it's a conversation that should be had and and it's a consideration. When I was working at a big four, it was very highly frowned upon to discuss your pay and your salary with anyone else. [00:38:00] I mean, in fact, I, I feel like at some point I might have been told not to. And so having it be out in the open is is something that I think can benefit everyone. It helps everybody negotiate more effectively.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because there's something that is very personal to me. You know, just in the past five years as I've transitioned, um, from working [00:38:30] in my firm, uh, as much to, you know, working on it and spending more time doing education and speaking, etc. when I was first moving in that direction, I felt so frustrated because I didn't know how to negotiate, because I didn't know what the standards were. You know, who who do you talk to at a vendor? What kind of of, um, skills? And, uh, you know what? How do you talk to them about what you bring to the table? What are they even looking for? How much are those things worth? Which [00:39:00] things will they pay you for and which ones you know well?
Questian Telka: And women tend to undervalue themselves, and men tend to overvalue themselves when negotiating pay.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Questian Telka: So and if you have no framework or you have no starting point.
Nancy McClelland: Well, and.
Questian Telka: The only.
Nancy McClelland: Reason that I got to the point where I was finally able to have that confidence was that I reached out to colleagues such as yourself. And I was like, how much are you getting paid for that gig? And you just told me, [00:39:30] right? So, like, I had to ask and you had to be comfortable sharing in order for me to be like, okay, now I have a sense of baseline for that type of work. Um, and then, you know, asking.
Questian Telka: I said to you.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Yeah. I said to you because you were doing it for not enough. And I was very open and said, you need to charge a lot more.
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Questian Telka: And you said, apparently. Right, because you didn't know.
Nancy McClelland: I had no starting point.
Questian Telka: Was.
Nancy McClelland: I [00:40:00] had no idea. Plus, oh my gosh, I won't even let's not even get into the conversation about exposure, working, doing public speaking for exposure. Somebody said recently they made the great comment, people die of exposure, you know? Anyway, um. Okay, so what about what about client size? I know that this is something, especially at larger firms. This is a big, huge thing where women get passed [00:40:30] over for major accounts.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Especially because they're saying, oh, you know, you're a lot of times I think they're thinking you're a mom, you're a parent, you don't want to have a larger account. And so we really need to track who's a track account assignments and make sure that they're being either rotated or somehow reviewed to ensure that women are also getting those accounts. I mean, it should be competence based. Yes. Right. It should not be based [00:41:00] on well, I'm a I work, You know, a flexible schedule. Assuming that I can fulfill it competently, then it should have no bearing. Whether you're a mom or a parent or any of those things. Yes. What you get assigned to.
Nancy McClelland: I'm going to add to that and say people in general, not just women, need to be trained for business growth. Um, it's amazing how many times people will, um, [00:41:30] get assigned a new client or they'll be promoted into a position, but they haven't been given the training and the support and the resources they need to succeed in that new position. So as we're talking about, um, making sure that people who have flexible schedules or who are working, uh, part time or, you know, who may be balancing a lot as we're talking about making sure that, uh, you know, the larger accounts are sort of getting rotated, new large accounts are getting rotated. [00:42:00] They, They remember that they also need the support to succeed, right? So sales and negotiation training. Um, many women were never encouraged to sell or close deals. We talked about on a private prior episode. We talked about selling is a woman's game and how I thought I couldn't sell it all and I wasn't interested in it, and I because I wasn't a slimy used car [00:42:30] salesman and my boss was just like, no, I actually think you're uniquely qualified for this special in a special way.
Questian Telka: Well, and we're we're groomed from a young age, hopefully less so now than when I was a child to be kind and nice and warm, all which are amazing qualities. But being assertive or aggressive in negotiation and sales was frowned upon and [00:43:00] maybe not being aggressive and assertive in sales was frowned upon, but those characteristics as a female were frowned upon. So how do you go from nice kind, you know, and you could be all those things and also be assertive, of course. So I feel like, let's just say that I feel like.
Nancy McClelland: I'm I'm not just going to say nice and kind. I'm going to say sweet and demure and, you know, not not in people's way, you know, because you can be kind and also be [00:43:30] assertive. I think it's a lot harder to go from, you know, sweet and, you know, sugar and spice and everything nice. It's really hard to go from that to assertive. I completely agree. Right.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So it's like go here to here.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. That's one of the reasons that I think women have a really hard time calling out microaggressions when they see them Partially. They don't [00:44:00] want to be viewed as like the the witch, right? Like, oh, you know, just if you're calling out a microaggression that was acted out that affected you personally, you don't want to be seen as the person who's the complainer about it, right? Um, and but it's only partially that the other part is the sugar and spice and everything nice that you were just talking about. Like you, you you don't have.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I think we're something we need [00:44:30] to keep in mind. And I want to hit on and make sure I say it as a follow up, is that you can be sweet and you can be assertive. I think the problem is that we're we were groomed early on to not be assertive, to just be sweet. And so it's like you're not we don't know necessarily how to do that comfortably, but they can coexist because you and I are both kind and we're both assertive. Yes. So we know and we know [00:45:00] lots of women who are in fact, I would say the many of the women that work in our industry that we know and a lot of our colleagues are, are both. But we have to encourage that and make women feel comfortable and safe being both of those things if they want to be. Right.
Nancy McClelland: They need to feel women need to feel empowered to call out being interrupted or ignored or dismissed [00:45:30] or condescended to. Um, but they they also need backup. They can't be the only ones calling out their own injustices. They need other people in the room, especially. Especially people with, um, inborn privilege. Right. Like the cis white males of the world. This is where we need you most white ladies 80s stand up for women of color. Um, [00:46:00] and actually, I'm going to just add a little thing here that is not gender related, but I think that, um, extroverted, outgoing people need to be standing up for people who are shyer or more timid or or introverted in a way that, you know, they don't feel comfortable speaking up for themselves. So when when you feel when you see it, say something.
Questian Telka: Yes, I absolutely agree. And you know, being be active participants [00:46:30] and not just passive supporters. Yeah. Right.
Nancy McClelland: And this isn't just.
Questian Telka: We want that from all of the advocates. No, no.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. This is a firm growth issue. We want everybody to be an active participant here. Co-sponsors Co-learners champions of change. Firms can provide bias interruption training not just for women, but for everyone. I mean, we can really remodel what success looks like here.
Questian Telka: We can definitely remodel what success [00:47:00] looks like. I was talking to Jason Ackerman recently, and he was listening to the podcast, and he was sharing feedback, and he was really excited about it. And we were having a conversation about the makeup of his firm, and I was asking him some questions because I was intrigued, because we have some amazing male listeners. But but by and large, we have female listeners. And I was intrigued and excited that he was listening. And he told me that his [00:47:30] firm is actually 80% women and 50, 50 men and women in leadership roles. And I just thought, you know, that that was incredible. And so what does firm success look like? One way that it can look successful is by measuring things like how many women do we have? How many of the women in our firm are in leadership roles? And I'm [00:48:00] hoping to get some more information from him on how he is actually gone about and accomplished this.
Nancy McClelland: And yeah, I'm sure it was intentional. We could have a full unlikely. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Oh, absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: Other examples of that intentionality. I know there's a firm that tied partner bonuses to team development and diversity outcomes. I would love to talk to them and learn more about that. And then you had a friend who was a male partner who, [00:48:30] um, yeah, was really intentional about providing an example of taking paternity leave.
Questian Telka: That's right.
Nancy McClelland: And in taking paternity leave shifted the entire firm's culture, which I just think that's so inspirational because, you know, we need to see it modeled.
Questian Telka: That's right. Because one of the things that we do know about leadership and or that we do know about culture. Is that the best way? I mean, the data has proven this. The best way [00:49:00] to shift a culture is by the people who are in the leadership roles, doing the thing that they want to change. They need to model the behavior, and that will have a huge impact on a cultural change and shift within a business. So it's possible the change is possible.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, the leadership gap in accounting isn't going to close on its own. But yes, it can close. We just have to have awareness [00:49:30] and commitment and intentional action.
Questian Telka: That's right. So the change is possible and the culture is created based on what we celebrate and what we reinforce. And so whether you're.
Nancy McClelland: Running a firm or just getting started in your career, I mean, you have the power to be part of this shift, right?
Questian Telka: That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Well, we'd like to ask listeners to follow our She Accounts podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on [00:50:00] this conversation. We would love it if you would share under the post for this episode your stories of bias that you feel like you've faced in the workplace.
Questian Telka: And before we sign off, as usual, I want to share a quote. And the quote is from Michelle Obama. And she says, let's be very clear. Strong men, men who are truly role models, don't need to put down women to [00:50:30] make themselves feel powerful. People who are truly strong lift others up. People who are truly powerful bring others together. And I think that's very true. I love that.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my God, what is. She's so inspiring. Everyone, thank you for being here with us on She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So [00:51:00] you feel seen, heard and never alone.
Questian Telka: And remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarks and links to that in any other resources that we've mentioned will be in our show notes.
Nancy McClelland: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps other people find the podcast. It also makes us feel really good. We've seen a few of these come through and it's just, oh, it feels great. [00:51:30] Thank you. For those of you. Yes, totally. And also, please share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Questian Telka: We'll see you in two weeks.