There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't [00:00:30] have to figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season two sponsors for Ridley Relay and Client Hub. We're so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at ESOP.
Questian Telka: Today's episode is called start with no and we have a special guest with us, Brandy [00:01:00] Jordan, a self-proclaimed Jane of all trades. We're going to talk about challenging our default inclination to say yes and explore the power of starting with no instead.
Nancy McClelland: Brandy has made a name for herself in our world with her role as catalyst with Woodard, concept alchemist at Highrock accounting. And before that, creative badass for the Zero Partner Relations team. She loves pushing creative boundaries for herself and [00:01:30] those around her, and is going to help us do a little bit of that today. Welcome to She Counts. Brandy.
Brandy Jordan: Thank you. I feel like I should have worn a glitter cape or something or had a confetti cannon without interruption. I'm excited to be here with you both, so this will be fun.
Questian Telka: Well, as you and probably our listeners know, we love launching every episode with a story. And Nancy, this is a really special one because it was the genesis behind the whole concept of the [00:02:00] She Counts podcast in the first place.
Nancy McClelland: It's true. It's true. Years ago, I sent a text to question about what life would look like if our defaults weren't saying yes, she and I. We love saying yes to everything. As a matter of fact, we'll we'll get ourselves into a lot of trouble with how much we say yes. And so I was like, what if our default weren't saying yes? It weren't a reactive no, but rather a default [00:02:30] proactive no. And then we'd have to convince ourselves of the reasons to say yes instead of the other way around. And she was like, we should start a podcast about that. And for a time this seems ridiculous in retrospect. But for a time, our plan was to have a podcast entirely dedicated to ways we could do this and what kind of impact it might have in the lives of women especially. And eventually [00:03:00] we realized it was it was too specific. We had way more ideas that we wanted to explore. And the title, it was sort of negative sounding. Start with no. You know, before you get into that underlying concept and understand what it's about, it can it can start off feeling like a negative thing to say. Um, but honestly, I'm not sure this podcast would ever have materialized if it hadn't been for that text conversation. And then I saw this great article by Brandy in the Woodard report [00:03:30] called The Power of Saying No to boost Productivity and Set Boundaries, and I knew I wanted her as the guest for this topic.
Questian Telka: That's right. Yeah. So why don't we start there? Um, Brandy, tell us about where did your motivation come from behind writing this article?
Brandy Jordan: Well, the article was actually born from a pattern I kept bumping into. Um, previously when I was coaching a [00:04:00] lot of high performing professionals. I mean, these are bright, capable people driving themselves into the ground because we're no felt like career limiting or a personal flaw. And every time they were declining a request, that guilt showed up. And like whispering to them, you're letting everyone down. And honestly, I've even been there myself. Um, taking on endless commitments, you know, because saying no felt like I wasn't up to the challenge. I didn't have guilt. I just have to be superwoman. [00:04:30] You know? So let me do everything. Um, and then recently, I noticed this issue resurfacing and resurfacing in other colleagues. They were struggling with saying no, even when it's completely justified or necessary. And it just made me realize how important it is to reinforce the idea that saying no isn't a negative. It's essential to managing your energy and your priorities effectively, because when I shifted my mindset and began seeing know as a filter rather than [00:05:00] that failure, it completely changed the game. Because that perspective, it helped me realize that setting the boundaries is not about being rigid or closed off. It's about self respect and discernment and intentionally protecting your time and energy so that you can say yes wholeheartedly to the things that truly align with your values and goals.
Nancy McClelland: I literally have goosebumps right now. I just I want to make sure you know that, like, we could just in my opinion, we could [00:05:30] end the podcast right there and be like, well, that was pretty much it.
Nancy McClelland: Nail on the head. Yes.
Questian Telka: I think one of the things one of the things that that comes up for me when I think about that and I think about why I don't initially say no, and I have a tendency to say yes is especially in the earlier years of business or earlier years of career growth, when you start to see that opportunities are coming your way. For myself, [00:06:00] it created this feeling like if I don't say yes to this and take this opportunity, I'll never have this opportunity again. So a bit of a scarcity mindset or people will stop asking me because I'm telling them no. And so then I felt compelled to always say yes to everything. And what that has created over time is definitely this over sense of overwhelm, because you're saying yes to everything all the time. And so trying to shift that mindset and saying, okay, like I [00:06:30] really need to pick and choose these opportunities so that I can bring my best to all of those opportunities. So that's what I try to do now, but I'm still not perfect at it.
Nancy McClelland: You're not only still not perfect at it. You literally texted me last week saying, hey, that opportunity, that speaking opportunity that you offered to a friend of ours who turned it down. I. How about me? Can I do that? And I was like, no, no question. You're like, not only were you not saying no, you're reaching out [00:07:00] to me to say, I want to do the thing. And I was like, no, I'm going to protect you from yourself here. So yeah, we're as as question likes to say, nobody should talk to us about this topic except for somebody like Brandy, who seems like you got it, I don't know. Do you have it figured out? I mean, what does it mean to start with? No. And how is that different from just learning to say no?
Brandy Jordan: Oh, I do not have it all figured out. I mean, we're not perfect. I mean, come on, you've seen me working.
Nancy McClelland: Um, but it's true. It was [00:07:30] a bit of a trick question.
Questian Telka: It is.
Brandy Jordan: Um, but it doesn't mean it's not a consistent work in progress that can't get better. Because, again, reinforcing is starting with no is not about being negative or difficult. It is about installing basically a new operating system for your your decisions. So most of us, especially high achievers, because we have to do everything we're taught to keep, yes, ready on our lips because it feels collaborative. It feels valuable or heroic, right? But the hidden danger [00:08:00] is that this reflex leaves us reactive. So we're forever rearranging time and energy after we've already committed something. And when you flip the default to no, that turns that reflex reflex on its head. So instead of a mere refusal tactic, right, it becomes a strategic framework that lets you assess every request on alignment, opportunity, cost, the real ROI before you grant a deliberate high impact. Yes. You know, one [00:08:30] of the I read way too much, but I read about this. Um.
Nancy McClelland: What do you mean you read too much? I don't know. I never feel like I read enough. That's wonderful.
Brandy Jordan: Um, I read about a two decision operating systems decision making operating system. And, uh, Daniel Kahneman's. He wrote a book called Thinking Fast and Slow. And it's [00:09:00] he wrote about a reflexive hardwired. Yes. Belongs to what he calls system one, which is a quick, emotional, people pleasing response, starting with no would force what he calls a system to pause where you think, can I really afford the cognitive load, the hours, the context switching that this demands? And so when you treat every new opportunity neutrally, free of that immediate social pressure, you give yourself the space to weigh it against [00:09:30] your existing goals, values and commitments. That neutral default then acts as even a decision fatigue buffer, preserving that mental bandwidth for genuinely strategic choices instead of just burning energy on those knee jerk Commitments. So I think another way that you can visualize this is think about budgeting your money. If you're constantly spend first and figure it out later, you will always feel behind and stretched. But if you start each month at zero and consciously decide [00:10:00] exactly how you're going to allocate your funds, you're going to feel empowered and in control. So that same applies to your time and energy. It moves you from being reactive and overwhelmed to being strategic and empowered and ultimately more empowered.
Nancy McClelland: Like a lot of work, brandy.
Questian Telka: Not a.
Brandy Jordan: Lot of work.
Brandy Jordan: Because you already know. Or you should know. Especially as professionals, we have our goals. We have our vision. It's about keeping that forefront. That should not be a consistent [00:10:30] work, and it is going to feel like at the start, because anything new is work, but it becomes a habit to think, well, this doesn't really align with what I want to do. So no. Or this actually fulfills a lot of things I'm trying to do. So Yes.
Questian Telka: Yeah. I think there's I can't in terms of the workload. Right. Yes. It's a lot of work to change it and to do it, but it's also a lot of work to feel like you're constantly behind, like, I can't I was thinking about it when we were getting ready for the podcast about [00:11:00] how, when was the last time that I remember being like, wow, all of my work is done, I'm caught up. I think I'm going to stop working and go like, do something fun, right? Or I'm just going to take a day off because I'm finished with everything.
Nancy McClelland: 19 years ago, I actually remember that day I was sitting, I think back to that day. I'm not even joking. I think back to that day sometimes when I'm frantic all the time and I say, I know I wasn't always like this. [00:11:30] I remember that day when I was 34 years old and I was sitting on my front porch and I was like, huh, I have choices. I could go to the beach today. I could read a book, I could do yoga. What am I going to do? And I feel like I've spent the past 19 years trying to get back to that moment.
Questian Telka: Yeah, same. I mean, I feel the same way when my I took a weekend off recently actually wasn't even the whole weekend. I don't remember the last time I've taken an actual full weekend off, but I was like, I'm gonna [00:12:00] take my kids to the pool. I want to this is this is a sad admission, right? It's like, I'm going to take my kids to the pool and I'm going to take the day off. And I remember being at the pool with them and being like, wow, this is a nice feeling. Like I'm not actually working. So yeah, I think it would be nice to I would love to get back to that point and learning to be able to choose intentionally. Like Brandy said, make sure that I'm choosing things that are in alignment, alignment with where I'm going with what I [00:12:30] want to be doing and being very intentional about it because I, I do, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this. I have that immediate like stage one emotional reaction that's like, oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. I want to do it. Yes. And then it's like, oh, I'm committing to something that's three months from now. So it's it's fine. Like I'll be able to do that three months from now.
Nancy McClelland: I'll be all caught up in I'll.
Questian Telka: Be all.
Nancy McClelland: Caught.
Questian Telka: Up.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. To this myself a million times. I think there's that meme out there that's like being an adult [00:13:00] is saying, um, I'll catch up next week, every week for the rest of your life.
Brandy Jordan: Because every time you say, yeah, every time you say yes, though, you're saying no to something else without whether you mean to or not.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So, Brandy, what changed for you when you stopped seeing. No. As this either failure or, um, guilt laden thing or, um, a a missing an opportunity when you started, you said earlier [00:13:30] seeing it as a filter, what changed for you when, when you started doing this?
Brandy Jordan: Um. It's hard. I mean, I still have my moments, like I said, because it's it's hard to overcome an entire life of like where, you know, with failure anyways, or that you're or for me, I'm not. If I say no, it means I'm not competent or capable enough to handle everything coming my way. So I felt like I was disappointing people or I was going to miss out some on some opportunity. You know, FOMO over nothing. [00:14:00] Um, it's that internal story, right? That held a lot of emotional weight, too. And we've already talked about we all have that feeling. Um, but that turning point when I reframed it to that strategic strategic filter, rather than just judging my abilities each. No, wasn't about rejecting opportunities anymore. It was about protecting and prioritizing my core responsibilities, my goals, my personal well-being. Because [00:14:30] I was putting all that to the back burner, you know, by saying no more intentionally, I noticed even my productivity He improved my energy, improved my attitude because we all know I have one.
Brandy Jordan: And also this is a better version.
Nancy McClelland: So true. It's one of the things I love the most about you. I, I, I loved.
Nancy McClelland: You from the first moment that we met online. Honestly, Brandy, that that tude comes through and I appreciate it. Keep it bright, keep it shining.
Brandy Jordan: So. [00:15:00]
Brandy Jordan: But instead of feeling guilty, right, or being stretched thin, I'm. I feel clearer and more purposeful and less anxious because I also carry that with me too. All that anxiety over it. But over time, this approach has transformed how I make decisions across many aspects of my life. It's not just professionally. This is personally as well because it goes hand in hand.
Questian Telka: So can you tell me or tell [00:15:30] us why do you think women in accounting default to. Yes. And then what is what is the cost of doing so of that reflux?
Questian Telka: Aside from our aside from sanity?
Nancy McClelland: Okay, I guess we got the sanity part figured out. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: I, I am confused by the why behind it.
Brandy Jordan: Well women and professional services, especially in accounting, we [00:16:00] they tend to operate in under immense pressure because they want to prove their worth, their capability, their reliability. And the cultures in the industry typically reward that responsiveness, that availability, that service oriented mindsets, which is all very good things in moderation. It's harmful when we take it to that extreme.
Questian Telka: So see that a lot. Like have you kind of seen this repeatedly in a lot through your experience coaching?
Brandy Jordan: Yes, [00:16:30] through coaching, through the different industries I've been in. And it's across the board. I feel like this isn't just a professional services thing or an accounting industry thing. This is a woman in the workplace thing. Um, and that expectation there, it impacts women because we, whether we like it or not, are often conditioned socially to be agreeable and accommodating and nurturing. And many women I've coached or even just in conversations, [00:17:00] have shared experiences of fearing being labeled as difficult or uncommitted or inflexible if they ever push back, like on those workloads or expectations. And as a result, that saying yes becomes a default, right? Just out of that fear or habit or conditioning, whatever it is, rather than just a conscious choice.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And we often default in, in certain roles, which we've talked about on the podcast before, like being a note taker in a board meeting or being the person who goes to the store and purchases [00:17:30] purchases, a card for everyone to sign on a birthday or so. There's always these. There are smaller, um, things that we're constantly saying yes to as well. And it kind of, I think, helps create those patterns of continually just taking on all the extra things that need to be done, on top of saying yes to bigger projects as well.
Brandy Jordan: And then you're constantly in a state of feeling like you have to catch up, because none of those little extra housework type tasks. [00:18:00] I don't know if that's going to be a PC thing to say, but that those type of tasks that don't necessarily equate to a bottom line or income generating any of that, you still have all the other work that you need to do, and somebody else who isn't concerned in saying yes to all the extra stuff is getting their stuff done. So you're in that constant state.
Questian Telka: That's such a good point.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. How would I kind of I feel like I want to do a group exercise, even though we can't, because all of our listeners are sort of invisible to us here. But, um, I. [00:18:30] You were talking about how having clear priorities could actually help us develop this confidence to say no. If I just made a list of my top priorities right now, and then, I mean, what are we talking about? Three priorities. Five priorities, ten priorities. How, how what kind of clarity do we need in order to get to the point where this is going to start kicking in, in the sense that we can look at this list and say, does it [00:19:00] align? Does it not align? Because I want that confidence to say no, but I, I hate the idea of disappointing people, and I hate the idea of missing opportunities. I mean, I live my life, so do FOMO is so real. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So what,yea what's my next step? How do I how do I define these priorities?
Brandy Jordan: There's a couple of different ways. For me personally, I, um, a couple years back, finally, even though I coach people to do this, I [00:19:30] never did it.
Brandy Jordan: Sorry.
Nancy McClelland: Oh truth comes out.
Brandy Jordan: But I finally did it. And it's been life changing for me. And a whole nother thing that could be a whole nother podcast. But I ended up writing out my own personal values. And my personal values align with everything that I do. And I have five personal values. So even when I take a job, does that align with my personal values? And then you can get more granular than that. Whereas if this is work decisions, [00:20:00] what is your company goals? What is your job and your career goals? What are the top? I would say maybe 3 or 4 things that you want with your career. And does this align with that? Does this align with your firm values or those type of things to help guide you for what you're trying to do? Um, but mine always started personally with my personal values and then everything else has aligned to that. And so then I was like, oh, go ahead.
Questian Telka: No, I was going to say that kind of goes in line with what I was saying. What I was telling Nancy [00:20:30] is like, I was going back to your. Why? Like trying to remember your why. I mean, that's just one question, but, um, that's what I always try to do. And sometimes it's effective and sometimes not, if I'm being honest.
Brandy Jordan: Don't overwhelm yourself, though, with like, ten priorities, like.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Brandy Jordan: So what? What is going to have the biggest impact for what your ultimate goal is and make that your priority? And does this align with that. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Well then what do you do. Okay. So now I've got my list. I've got my list. [00:21:00] Let's pretend because I don't. But let's pretend that I just made a list of five personal values, which kind of equates to questions. Why? Um, and then I've actually am refining that list and I'm saying, okay, in keeping with these five personal values, I have three career goals, right. And so now everything that comes my way, I'm comparing it. And I go, oh, look, this isn't actually in alignment. But I really love this person. Or it's a really good cause [00:21:30] or whatever. What advice would you give to me now that I'm afraid that starting from now is going to make me look selfish or inflexible or not a team player, now what do I do? Like, okay, great, I've got my list and I've decided I'm starting with. No, I'm trying to convince myself. Yes. I don't get there because it's not in alignment now. I'm a jerk, though, right? Well, am I a jerk?
Brandy Jordan: I mean.
Questian Telka: No.
Nancy McClelland: I [00:22:00] told you about Brandy's attitude. That was a long pause. Brandy.
Brandy Jordan: Well, I mean, the first part in this entire shift is to shift your narrative about it and stop thinking that saying no is inherently selfish or inflexible. Um, because it's self-aware and intentional. Because by thoughtfully fully evaluating your commitments. You're respecting not only your own capacity, but then your team's capacity, or someone else's capacity [00:22:30] and ability to rely on you fully when you do commit. So it's not about fear of missing out. It's making sure that when you say yes, it's going to be yes, I'm in and I'm all in 100% because it's a demonstration of your integrity and reliability. It's not selfishness, you know. So I would seriously say, now that you have your priorities and your list, you should sit there and take a look at it and be like, I really like this. Do I even have the capacity? And you have to give that that honest look. Because if this is going to be an emotional decision, you [00:23:00] still need to bring some logic into it. Could you actually do it without compromising your other priorities?
Nancy McClelland: Ooh. Can I do this without compromising my other? I'm writing that down.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I think that's a great one. So would you say I mean, I think so, but I, I would frame and say that saying no is actually a leadership skill not only for yourself, but for your team as you were, [00:23:30] as you were commenting. Because when you start saying no, you give you give flexibility to your team to be able to focus in other areas as well.
Brandy Jordan: Yeah.
Brandy Jordan: Because if leaders can protect their own bandwidth, then they're modeling that strategic restraint. They're demonstrating that focus is a competitive advantage. And it signals to the team that that thoughtful prioritization is how you deliver excellence, not the endless accommodation to everything.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Nancy McClelland: This is so full of gems. [00:24:00] For me. Thought prioritization is how you deliver that excellence. That is amazing. Um, I think I'm already figuring out where a lot of my holes are, and one of them is that I have way too many priorities, so I do. Yeah. Time for me to narrow these down.
Questian Telka: I'm like, my problem is that some of my priorities are things that maybe are not business growth priorities, but they're I want to do them because I like to priorities. [00:24:30] And so, you know, it's hard to narrow them down and to to make it just like a smaller number, even though it's like, okay, I know like Nancy said, it's like, you know, you don't have time to do that. And it's like, but I want to do that really bad.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And I'm pretty sure that I'm superwoman.
Questian Telka: So no.
Nancy McClelland: I'll future Nancy will figure this out. She always does and she always has. But she's going to burn out [00:25:00] if she keeps doing this. Right. So I feel like current Nancy needs to help future Nancy out, and current Nancy can also help future question out and vice versa.
Questian Telka: So yeah, that's right.
Nancy McClelland: You know.
Questian Telka: So do you have some some like, uh what what are some practical how to's for Saying no.
Brandy Jordan: Well, first, I mean, don't start saying no. Like to the biggest thing that comes your way. Start small because you have to get comfortable with saying no.
Questian Telka: Smart.
Brandy Jordan: You [00:25:30] know, practice that. Using clear yet empathetic language. Um, for example, when the client request, acknowledge it positively, but firmly set your boundary. Thank you for considering me, but I cannot take this on right now. Um, you can offer alternative solutions if it's possible for that. You know, like you mentioned earlier, like suggesting another colleague who could benefit from the opportunity or might be better aligned for it, especially since you two work in tandem. You'll know each other's goals and priorities. That's a perfect setup there, too.
Nancy McClelland: Um, [00:26:00] that's a great point.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Another thing. You know, I had a I just want to pause there for a second to say I mentioned her on one of the other recordings that we did. Claire Karczmar was, um, the chief operations officer at my first really big client, and one of the most important things that I learned about being a professional was from her. She said, come to me with solutions, not with [00:26:30] problems, because I would come to her and I would say, look at what a disaster the accounting department is. There's this problem and this problem and this problem. And she was like, and what is your proposal? And I feel, I feel like that that lines up with what you're saying here is that you're you're coming you're bringing the alternative solutions with you to the know. You know, you're saying, no, I can't help with this, but I know someone else who might be a great fit or this doesn't align. You know, this [00:27:00] isn't in alignment with our ideal client profile or our niche or whatever. However, I have a network of colleagues that are trusted. Of course, building that network can be challenging, and, you know, whether or not you're charging referral fees. And there's a lot of complexity there. But but you can have an alternative when you say no. And then you don't have to feel like a jerk.
Brandy Jordan: Yes. And another tip is to give yourself time, you know, to avoid that knee jerk. Yes. You know, pause before you respond. [00:27:30] Um, that's.
Questian Telka: A big problem for me. Like, I just like immediate. Yeah. I like some I need to just take a step back and pause and say, okay. And then convince myself. Right. Like, because it's easy for me to say. It's easy for me to see, say yes. It's hard for me to sit down and and analyze it as you're saying and then go, okay, like I need to convince myself that this should be a yes instead of a no. And and that pause is probably my biggest. Personally, [00:28:00] my biggest issue is if I could take a step back and do that, and I take time to think about it, because when Nancy brought up this, this story that she was talking about earlier, I was like, I saw it. And I was like, I want to do that. I want to do that so bad. I want, you know, immediately it was just like this is aligns. It does align with all of my with my values, with my goals. But in terms of the amount of time that I, that I have at the moment, it made makes no sense. And so she said that to me, and I had to sit and I sat on it for [00:28:30] a minute because I was immediately my initial reaction was like, no, but I want to do it. And so then I started thinking about it and I'm like, yeah, I really should not take that on right now, even though it's something I very much want to do.
Brandy Jordan: Not only does taking that pause, uh, reduce that impulse right, to give you that time to think, it's an easy response to give to someone about. Let me review my workload. I'll get back to you tomorrow. Um, it gives you that space to thoughtfully assess the request without the stress of an immediate reaction. [00:29:00] And then you'll notice, two, by taking that time to pause and think, your fear will often diminish as well. Your fear of saying that. No, because now you've thought it through logically, and you can come back and say, this is not going to be for me at this time.
Questian Telka: Yes, because I think that's a good point that she just made, like your fear of saying no, because what goes through my head back to that, you know, will the opportunities still be there? Is the fear of like, if I don't capitalize [00:29:30] on it and try to take this opportunity now, like I won't get I won't get that again. And so there's part of the fear of like telling somebody no, because I don't like to disappoint people and I'm a people pleaser. And then there's the other part of it, which is the fear of saying no. And like, that opportunity won't happen again. And if it's something really important to me, that's when it becomes very difficult.
Brandy Jordan: And when you put that, when you put that value to your boundaries, it's [00:30:00] also, um, other people start to appreciate your thoughtfulness that you took the time to consider it. So you're not letting anyone down.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. That's there's so many practical implications. They're like, you know, you just you just covered decision making. Um. Acknowledgment, delegation, time management, energy management. Um, which is something that. Lynette O'Connell, when she talks about burnout, talks about doing both time and energy [00:30:30] audits. Not just the time that something takes you. Um, so, I mean, like, yeah, I'm. I'm on board, I know. I get that this concept of starting with no could really change my life. I want to know. If you could share a time when starting from no led you to make a much better decision. Like the actual frontal cortex executive decision making, the emotion fell away. The emotion both in. [00:31:00] The reaction to saying no, like the fear you were just saying can subside, but also the emotion behind. Having wanted to do it in the first place, but having to decide that no, it didn't align. What's an example where starting from no led you to make a much better decision than you would have from autopilot. Yes.
Brandy Jordan: So I know we've been talking mainly like, you know, saying no at work or in other personal life, whatever the case may be. But my [00:31:30] toughest no wasn't aimed at a boss or a colleague. It was aimed squarely at myself and telling myself, no. Um.
Nancy McClelland: That's hard.
Brandy Jordan: It was, uh, but for years, vacations were just new scenery with the same inbox for me. Yeah. Uh, I would work while on vacation. No one demanded that I stay online. I mean, there wasn't any of that. It was just my own inner superhero insisting. Check on that. It's fine. Or, you [00:32:00] know, go do this. You'll find this will only take a few minutes. Right? And the irony and why I took a minute for saying this situation is it was the irony was painful because I was preaching boundaries to everyone else while burning mine to the ground.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Brandy Jordan: So I.
Questian Telka: Love that. Wow knows the the a change in scenery with the same inbox. Is that how you said it? I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, that [00:32:30] sounds familiar.
Brandy Jordan: So there was one point and I, I don't even remember which exact trip it was or anything, but I finally drew the line. The laptop stayed home because I knew if it was in my bag, I'm not going to leave it be. Notifications went off on the phone and I told the whole team up front I will be unreachable. Carry on. Don't break anything, you know? Um, but the hardest part in doing this was silencing that nagging voice that something might implode. Right? [00:33:00] Or. And it never does. You know, there's nothing life threatening that happens in our particular line of work that would need anything right away. And if something did break, I can fix it when I get back. Right. And the payoff in doing this one little thing was almost immediate. I mean, it was a real rest and break for a change. Um, my brain could, like, turn off of all of that that I was doing there. Um, I came back with a fresh perspective, [00:33:30] because that's a great thing. When you walk away from stuff and then come back and look at it again and new things happen, and then and in two to that hypocritical guilt of, like, I'm telling everybody else to do this, but don't mind me. It's good for you, not for me.
Nancy McClelland: Hypocrisy is a very, very painful emotion. It really is. It absolutely is. And everything that you're saying is resonating, too, to the extent you may not even know this, but the reason that we're recording on a Tuesday instead of a Friday is [00:34:00] that I am going on my first vacation without a laptop since pre-pandemic. I am leaving this Thursday. I will be gone for almost two weeks. Um, I I the actual trip is only ten days, but I built in a day beforehand and a couple days afterwards so that I can actually be in a situation where I'm refreshed before I go back into the office and I'm not bringing my laptop, I'm not bringing my laptop. And you know what I said to myself? I actually didn't just say it to myself. [00:34:30] I said it in my mastermind group last night. I said, if this all burns down while I'm gone, then that wasn't the business that I wanted to be running anyway.
Questian Telka: And it won't. It will not burn down while you're gone.
Nancy McClelland: It won't.
Brandy Jordan: No, it'll be fine, you know. And that's one line I've held ever since. Even now, everybody at work knows if I'm on vacation time. You're not touching me. Bye. See you when I get back.
Nancy McClelland: And what do you do about that stress, though? Yeah. With, you know, your [00:35:00] inbox is going to be overflowing when you come back. How do you. Does that not make you stressed? Because that makes me really anxious.
Brandy Jordan: No, because I've just learned I have my own system when I get back. Um, I keep my calendar open, not free of meetings, so that I can focus. All right, I'm going to clear out this like I have my little list of things I need to do when I get back. And I also have, like a white space where as I'm going through, I make notes of, remember to check this, check this, check this. Then I get that done. And then now I go through my list of what I need to do, and [00:35:30] I already have that in place.
Questian Telka: I found that when I take a vacation and I really put everything away and I decompress, and I don't think about work when I came, when I come back, I am so much more efficient. My efficiency level increases substantially. If I'm able to take time away and let my brain rest, I don't do it enough. But there is a noticeable shift in how quickly I'm able to work, how focused [00:36:00] I am when I'm getting burnt out versus when I have just come back from, um, you know, having some time away.
Brandy Jordan: So and it's good for other people on the team too, because magically it's amazing what they can figure out when you're not around.
Questian Telka: Right. Yeah. Like suddenly they become highly, highly self-sufficient. Exactly.
Brandy Jordan: All of a sudden, like the the emails in the beginning are no longer relevant because they've already solved for it. And you're like, great. Next.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Well, there was something that you [00:36:30] wrote in your article, um, that I mean, there was the whole article was so good. I'm going to make sure it's in the show notes for our readers. I mean, for our listeners to read, um, there were a couple of things that you that you talked about in there. One of them in particular that was sort of new to me, was you call it the planning fallacy. And I want you to share more about that with us and with our listeners.
Brandy Jordan: That's from that constant reading I do.
Questian Telka: Um.
Brandy Jordan: Um, [00:37:00] it's actually funny because it was also mentioned in the book I mentioned earlier, but there was um.
Nancy McClelland: It's I'll make sure to put that in the in the show notes as well. That's thinking fast and slow.
Brandy Jordan: Yeah. Um, the planning fallacy is a concept from behavioral economics. Um, and that started with the psychologist who wrote that the book, Daniel Kahneman and then his partner, Amos Tversky. Um, and in essence, it describes our passive tendency to underestimate how [00:37:30] long tasks or projects actually take. So even when past experiences have shown us otherwise, because we often believe we can accomplish more in less time discounting any unforeseen complications or disruptions. And you're right. I do it, too. Um.
Nancy McClelland: You know, there's a concept in software development. My husband, Mark, is a software developer and and in extreme programing. They have something [00:38:00] called velocity where you you determine how long ideally something would take. And then you look at reality and you say, oh, I'm going to assign a velocity of this. So a velocity of one would mean would mean that in real life it takes exactly as long as you ideally imagined it would take. So a velocity of 1.5 means it's going to take 50% longer than you think it should take. A velocity of two [00:38:30] means it'll take twice as long, etc. and so on. And you assign that velocity to every single project. And so you try to kind of imagine how much longer than ideally each project would take. And I've, I have sort of dreamed about implementing this in my world of accounting, but I never have. It sounds like that has a lot to do with this planning fallacy.
Brandy Jordan: That because it's a planning fallacy that the differences, we know it's going to take longer, but yet we still think we can get it done faster. And that's the fallacy in it. [00:39:00]
Questian Telka: Yeah, I feel like I know that. I recognize that it takes me about twice as long as I think something's going to take me, but I still don't want to acknowledge it because it's like, well, I need to get it done by this amount of time. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Questian Telka: So I'm going to pretend like I can do that and try, but it never happens. And it's generally probably twice as long as I think.
Brandy Jordan: Right. Because when we're talking about saying no, if you underestimate [00:39:30] the true cost and it's not just time, it's also your mental energy and resources. And you add that up of every commitment. You're constantly overspending your available bandwidth.
Questian Telka: That's so true. I mean, that's part of it, is I schedule those times when I'm thinking about those times. Time blindness is also an issue for people with ADHD, but I don't I also don't think about okay, well, I have been working for how many hours and what what mental capacity are those tasks taking me? Because [00:40:00] some are more mentally taxing than others, right? They require more deep thought. Where am I going to be at mentally when I need to do the next things that I have on my schedule? And so it's like I'm thinking about it from a time perspective, but not about taking a breaks and mental energy and things like that. And so those are really important things to be considering when you're trying to figure out how much time you have for something. So I need to take my own, my your advice, my own advice and do a better job of that.
Brandy Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:30]
Nancy McClelland: Well, and there's, there's something that goes along with that which, you know, I feel like Brandy, this is very much in alignment with like this, this overarching. What are you trying to teach us here. What should our takeaways being? It's not just about saying no more. It's about focusing on saying yes better.
Brandy Jordan: Mhm. Yes it is. You know, it's, um. It's thinking [00:41:00] it all through and making sure that your yes is impactful and it means something. And that's where your energy deserves to be. Is, is that that using your time as currency? So I've talked about in the past that if you think about what it truly costs through all of that with your strategic thinking, or it's going to cost less presents for your family or fewer opportunities to recharge, that's saying no becomes that conscious decision and start asking, can I truly afford to say yes to this? [00:41:30] You know, what else am I implicitly saying no to? When I accept and you start viewing these commitments through that lens and you gain that clarity, you reduce the overwhelm, you preserve the integrity and quality of your work. And that, yes, means more.
Nancy McClelland: And that's why we have to start with no, because otherwise we're not giving ourselves the time. I mean, everything that you just said, like none of that is lizard brain. That's that's not its. Its executive function, its frontal cortex. Right. It's my logical cognitive brain that needs an [00:42:00] opportunity to think through everything that you just said. And if I'm saying yes is my default, then I'm not even giving myself the opportunity to do any of that. I need I need a text question and be like, question. I gotta talk this through with you because I have this opportunity, but I can't do that every second of every day. So I have to I have to learn. I really do believe. I have to learn to start with. No. And then work through backwards. Yeah. Yes. Exactly, [00:42:30] exactly. There's that great meme that on Instagram I've seen so many times. Don't be present for others if it means being absent for yourself, right? That's that's exactly what we're talking about here.
Brandy Jordan: Because self-abandonment is unsustainable leadership.
Nancy McClelland: There's another quote.
Questian Telka: I.
Nancy McClelland: Know. Your self abandonment is unsustainable. Leadership. Self. Wow.
Questian Telka: So there's another important a [00:43:00] very important piece of this puzzle, right? Is being sure to train or teach others to respect your boundary. Respect the fact that you've told them no. So how can leaders encourage a start with no mindset on their teams without shutting down collaboration and opportunities?
Brandy Jordan: Modeling is going to be essential. Firstly, I mean, if you as a leader [00:43:30] consistently practice clear and respectful boundary setting. You know, showing your team what a thoughtful evaluation looks like, it normalizes the behavior for everyone else. You know, it's crucial to frame this mindset positively rather than negatively, though, because this is not about shutting down ideas or creating barriers. It is about making these conscious, strategic decisions because it means creating a culture where people feel [00:44:00] safe, having those open and honest discussions about their capacity and their workloads and their true bandwidth. So you're gonna have to regularly check in with team members, not just on projects or deadlines, but generally on how they're managing their commitments and stress levels. You know, you want to encourage them to practice that. No. First, thinking in small ways to start with, like I said earlier, you know, like maybe they can assess their minor tasks before agreeing and then they gradually build that confidence to apply the same approach to bigger decisions. [00:44:30] And it helps the team view saying no, not as that resistance, but as a valuable tool for strategic focus. And when you are oh go ahead.
Questian Telka: No, I was just going to say right. So it starts with your team having clarity, building clarity and not guilt over saying no. Right. So it forces us to focus forward. Um. Or I'm sorry, focus toward your core priorities [00:45:00] in order to align with those values that you were talking about and and what your your priorities and your goals are.
Brandy Jordan: And modeling like, you can't just tell them to do this if you're not doing it.
Questian Telka: Doing it yourself. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And I think that's something that I have been able to do in this past year has been a big goal of mine, is to shift the tone of my conversations with my team, to say, I need you to help me. I'm not good at this, and I need you to help me get there. And [00:45:30] so, for example, with my EA, uh, Ali, she I was like, I will give you a raise if you can help me survive through the end of July. Like, I just need to make it through the end of July. And that means I can't drop any really, really, really big plates. And I need your help because I can't do this alone. So it's not just about. I normally think of myself as being the support for my team and and asking them for their help and [00:46:00] having them protect me from myself and help me get through all the things that I overcommitted to that that was a very that that took a lot of vulnerability and it was a little embarrassing. But it's been really amazing. Like we they they've really been stepping up for me and I really appreciate it. Yeah. But that's a hard conversation to have like that. That takes vulnerable and empathetic leadership in order to have that conversation in the first place, because we like to think that our team members [00:46:30] think that we're invincible, but they know we're not. They know we're not.
Questian Telka: No we're not. Yeah. It's just like just like with your children and parenting, you know, I'm like, I, I do my best to let my kids see like I am. I do not know everything you have. You think I do now? Because you're young and small. But when you're older, you are going to be like. She has no idea what she's talking about. That's good.
Brandy Jordan: It was all a lie when you were a kid. None of us know what's happening.
Questian Telka: That's right.
Nancy McClelland: That's a whole book about becoming an adult. Really? [00:47:00] Yeah. I thought that was.
Questian Telka: Just.
Nancy McClelland: Me.
Questian Telka: Nope. Not just you.
Brandy Jordan: But having that conversation with your team, though, it's not only building that trust, but it's openly getting everyone involved and respecting and honoring a boundary, which is what you want your team to do anyways. And when they have that safe place, you know, to decline requests without the judgment, the trust grows and your collaboration deepens. So you setting that example opens up the door for others [00:47:30] on your team to do the same. And then everyone starts to understand that each other's limits and strengths pretty clearly. It leads to a healthy dynamic.
Nancy McClelland: One person's, you know, one person's maybe taking advantage of that or one person. I mean, one person. Not that they would be consciously taking advantage of it necessarily, but one person's concept about how much could be accomplished in a given hour is very different than someone else's, and I feel like we might accidentally be giving permission for [00:48:00] folks to underperform. Whereas the people who are overachievers, they're going to keep overachieving because it's what they do.
Brandy Jordan: I think that becomes a coaching opportunity where you're going to have to work one on one with them and really understand how they're spending their time and help them understand what the capacity should look like. Right. That's part of it.
Nancy McClelland: To understand which goes back to your we as leaders, we need to be having the conversation about capacity and mental and physical well-being in the [00:48:30] first place. And those conversations, often those topics don't make it into conversation in the first place. Yeah.
Questian Telka: So this has been an amazing Conversation. Um, I feel like we've learned so much here today already. And as we wrap up, we want to ask listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode start with no. Will you commit to trying this approach once in the next couple of weeks and let [00:49:00] us know how it feels? I will, I will do it. Uh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Will you?
Questian Telka: I mean, I sort of did it already, but I guess what the one time.
Nancy McClelland: Again.
Questian Telka: The one time. The one time. Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Brandy Jordan: You gotta do it more than once. You gotta practice the.
Nancy McClelland: Point of the episode.
Questian Telka: Yes. I'll do it.
Nancy McClelland: We're supposed to be building a muscle of discernment.
Nancy McClelland: One time isn't enough.
Questian Telka: Yep. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, my gosh. Do it.
Questian Telka: More than.Once [00:49:30] and I will share.
Nancy McClelland: All right. Okay
Questian Telka: I'm gonna put a post-it note on my on my computer that just says no.
Nancy McClelland: It says start with no.
Questian Telka: Yeah,
Nancy McClelland: Well, I I will commit to doing it if you commit to doing it.
Questian Telka: Definitely.
Brandy Jordan: Oh. Accountability partner.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Right. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: We're pretty good at that. Yeah, we're good at that.
Nancy McClelland: Well, before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by perhaps the most famous poet on Instagram, Nayyirah Waheed. [00:50:00] I don't say yes because I'm strong. I say no because I am.
Questian Telka: Ooh, that's a good one. I love that. Thanks for being here with us on She Counts, The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: So you feel seen heard and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links [00:50:30] to that, and any other resource will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please be sure to subscribe and leave us a review because that helps other people find the podcast. Share this with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: Many thanks again to our amazing guests. Brandy Jordan, thank you for being here with us.
Brandy Jordan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad we had this conversation.
Questian Telka: This was a great one. And lots of there's lots of tidbits for me. I mean, we, Nancy and [00:51:00] I have been talking about this for a long time, but now we are actually going to do it in practice for real.
Questian Telka: So .
Nancy McClelland: ANd I've got a full page of notes that I took, not for the show notes, but for myself.
Questian Telka: For yourself.
Brandy Jordan: I gotta make those action items. They don't just sit on the paper.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, Brandy, you sound like a coach,
Brandy Jordan: I don't know what are you talking about?
Questian Telka: Thanks for joining us. And we'll see everyone in two weeks.