There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting, where your hosts Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're [00:00:30] not. And you shouldn't have to figure this out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season two sponsors, Forwardly Relay and Client Hub. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at.
Questian Telka: Today's episode is called Marking Ourselves down [00:01:00] and we have a very special guest with us today, Candy Bellau. She is one of our theater of public speaking sisters. She's a top sister and she is also an incredible storyteller. She herself is a podcaster and the co-host of Unbalanced Podcast, which is one of Nancy and My's favorites. And today we're going to be discussing gender disparities in pricing and how women in accounting are undercharging [00:01:30] compared to men. I certainly know that I am guilty of this. We're going to discuss why it matters and what we can do about it. But before we get into that, I kind of want to back up to, um, a topic that we've discussed before, which is making business happen when life happens. And anybody who's tuned in before knows that Nancy has had a, um, had some situations taking place with her [00:02:00] mom, and that continues to happen now. And because of it, which I'm going to share some of the details about in a minute, Candy has so kindly offered to step in and be part of this episode with us today, because when you have life happening and you're trying to record a podcast episode every once in a while, something comes up and you have to take a step back and you need to manage that situation. [00:02:30] So, um, unfortunately, Nancy has a mother who is in a in a nursing care facility, very recently moved out of her house into a nursing care facility. I know so many of us are managing, caring for aging parents, caring for children all at the same time. And very recently she got the not so great news from Medicare. It's Medicare, [00:03:00] right? I always get Medicare, Medicaid, Medicaid those confused?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: What's the news from Medicaid that, um, they wouldn't be covering some things that they should definitely be taking care of and covering, and at the same time, found out that her mom had to be moved out of the facility that she is currently in with two days notice to a new facility. So we're recording this podcast, and she is jetting off once again to take care of [00:03:30] her mom, um, in an entirely different state. And it's just, you know, it is. We wanted to share what was going on because this is reality that we're all dealing with regularly, regularly in our lives on a daily basis. And we want our listeners to know these are not just topics that we're we don't just get on here and talk, pick a topic and then talk about it. These are things we're we're really facing and dealing with in our lives. And [00:04:00] we're so grateful to have Candy step in and talk to us about a topic that is, um, really important for women in accounting and, well, women in business in general. And so thank you, Candy, so much for coming to our rescue.
Candy Bellau: Thank you both so much for having me and trusting me with this topic. And to touch on a little bit of what Nancy's going through. Uh, there are some [00:04:30] people that know I went through a similar situation with my mother in another state and, um, having to get on a plane constantly to go and take care of things. And it was a long, very difficult process and a lot of amazing, supportive people in my corner that helped me, that Maybe weren't necessarily family, but were the people I've made family in my life that helped me get through it? But [00:05:00] I will say, while I was in it, it was hard. It was so hard, and it was so hard to get clarity. But when it ended, unfortunately, mom did pass. That time afterwards that I took really gave me a lot of clarity on what was I doing with my life, what was I doing with my family? Why am I running my business this way? What do I really want? And it's really hard to do when you're in it. But [00:05:30] there's a lot of insight I feel like I got after, and I've really given myself the grace and time to reflect on that of, you know, and we talked a little bit about fraud. And I've mentioned this with Nancy and, you know, I felt like there was a fraud within that's been doing all the things I'm supposed to do. Which also leads to pricing problems. You know, doing what you're supposed to do, being the nice one, helping, [00:06:00] you know, and going along with that and then realizing in the end, like, what am I doing here?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Candy Bellau: So yeah, it did help me. It's helped me a lot. It's sad that I had to go through that, but I'm happy where I am today.
Nancy McClelland: Uh, I'm so grateful to you. I, I love the fact Candy spent a long time on the phone with me yesterday. Um, it's very difficult for me to talk about, so I'm. I'm grateful that [00:06:30] you two are talking about it for me, because I really do want to, um, be very public about the struggles I'm going through because I know I'm not the only one. And I'm very grateful to both of you for being such incredible supports in my life.
Questian Telka: Oh, we love you.
Nancy McClelland: Well, in addition to the support that she's providing to me today. Um, here on She Counts and, uh, in helping me through [00:07:00] this crisis with my mother. Um, I think that she's one of my favorite people in the world for lots of other reasons, too. I was I was lucky enough to be in the same theater of public speaking cohort with her. And so we really got to know each other. And I've also been lucky enough to see her speak on fighting fraud, which as a CFE is one of her greatest passions. And she's really inspired me with her brutal honesty about her own struggles on both The Unbalanced Podcast and, um, in the amazing [00:07:30] podcast I heard you record last year with Heather Satterly, um, from Woodard. That was really impactful, one for me. And and is the reason that you when we knew we wanted to do an episode about pricing, I knew I wanted you to be our guest because the lessons you've learned, which we'll hear a little bit about today, um, are just so useful for all of us. So welcome to She Counts. Candy. Thank you for being here.
Candy Bellau: Oh my gosh, thank you both so much for having me a guest on She Counts. I love this [00:08:00] podcast and I talked about it on On balanced because um, and I do unbalanced with, uh, Samantha Halpern.
Nancy McClelland: Yay, Sam.
Candy Bellau: She's awesome. Um, and yeah so we love she counts. So thank you so much for having me here.
Questian Telka: Well, we love as you know then because you listen launching every episode with a story. And we have we know that you have one that's really going to set the scene for this very important topic. I mean, [00:08:30] I need this topic as much as anybody else out there. So I'm I'm all ears. Well, I.
Candy Bellau: Do like to talk about this topic a lot because I feel like if I had had somebody to speak to back in the day, I might not have gone through all the terrible things I did. And you know, now that it's easy, now I'm on the other side. But there were very, very, very dark days of not [00:09:00] knowing what I was doing of. I almost felt like I was constantly getting slapped with reality checks of, you know what I was charging, what I was doing for people, what other people were charging, my skill set, my knowledge. I just when I was in, I was working for people. I had no problem asking for what I was worth. I just.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, that's interesting. So when you were at a firm and [00:09:30] you were so do you mean no problem asking for, uh, what you were worth in terms of your compensation? Or do you mean like when you were pricing for their clients? You were. You were good at that or both.
Candy Bellau: When I was getting compensated, I had no difficulty speaking up.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. That's amazing.
Candy Bellau: From a young age, because at a young age, I ended up having to support the family. By the time I was 16, I paid the rent for our [00:10:00] family.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: And I was able to negotiate a full time salary as a high school student doing part time work because it clicked to me that they were paying somebody so much money for a job that I could easily do. But they wanted to pay me the minimum wage that I was answering phones to do the job.
Nancy McClelland: And so you saw what you were actually doing and you and you were value billing? Yes.
Candy Bellau: No thought [00:10:30] of being an accountant. That wasn't what I was going to do. Um, but my aunt was the bookkeeper, and she taught me the job. And this is manual. We're talking back in the day when there was the green.
Questian Telka: Green ledgers. Yeah.
Candy Bellau: And I thought it was so dumb and easy. And I just kept thinking, I can't believe they pay people to do this stuff. It's so easy. And I was there to answer phones and file. So I was getting minimum wage, which I think was like $4.25 [00:11:00] back then.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness.
Candy Bellau: Back in the 1900s. Um, but when my aunt left, they hired she was part time. They hired a full time person to take her job, and they couldn't do it. And so they said, we heard, you know what to do. Could you fix it? And I did it.
Nancy McClelland: Fixed it.
Candy Bellau: Brought another person in. They fired her. She messed everything up. And they said, could you fix it again? And I said, yes, but I'm going to make you a deal that'll save you money. And they said, all right, what are you going to do? And [00:11:30] I said, well, I know what you were paying her. I said, why don't you pay me what you were paying her? I will come in every day after school. You should send a car to pick me up. So I'm not wasting time walking here. I'll also work on Saturdays. I will do the entire job, fix everything. And here's how you're going to save money. I'm going to answer the phones and file for free. You don't have to pay me that $4.25 an hour anymore.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. And [00:12:00] so you rolled both of those jobs into one?
Questian Telka: Yes. And how old were you?
Candy Bellau: I was about 15 or 16 there.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. That's amazing. Wow. Chutzpah.
Candy Bellau: But I somewhere, when I had my own practice, I don't know what the heck happened to me, but the rock star that I used to be. Because I look back, I negotiated. I would get bonuses that were 100% of my salary when I lived in New York, and I worked [00:12:30] and I was running huge companies, and I was making so much money.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: And then I went to open my own firm and it was different being an employee. Where I was getting paid to be a rock star, and I was expecting it. I knew what they were making. I saw their numbers. I knew what I generated, I knew what I did, and I wanted to get paid fairly for it, and I was, and I always made sure I was. But when I had my own firm.
Nancy McClelland: Although I'm going to interrupt for a second to say, it [00:13:00] sounds to me that that's because you had transparency. And a lot of women working in CPA firms do not have transparency into what other people are making to do the same job. So that goes back to an earlier episode. That question and I recorded about the glass ceiling, um, where I think transparency is an essential piece of this puzzle, no matter whether you're in private practice or you're working in a CPA firm or you're working in corporate, if [00:13:30] we don't know what somebody who's doing the same job as us is making, or at least what that range is, then it is very, very difficult. Especially as women, we will tend to underprice ourselves. So I do feel like that's part of this here is that you had that transparency when you were an employee. You didn't have that same transparency, like, what will a client pay for? Right.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So it's more it's much more abstract. These numbers that we're trying to come up with, we [00:14:00] don't have necessarily the comparison like you would in that situation. But also to your point in these firms, it becomes very it's your they tell you not to talk about it. I was told not to share what my salary was. And so it was like this very taboo thing that you don't talk to people about. So unless you had a colleague who happened to be open enough with you to tell you what they were making, you were never going to know if you were on the same pay scale or a different one for the work that you're doing. So, [00:14:30] um, yeah, it's it's difficult to know how to ask. One thing that, and I think we might have mentioned this before as well. Um, and there are some states that are that are starting to do this. Is making it illegal to ask for people's salaries for prior jobs, because that continues the pay disparity for women, because we are habitually on a lower pay scale. But I find it so interesting that [00:15:00] that candy that you could ask for it if you're working for someone, but then had a hard time in your firm. I mean, I personally have a hard time and have had a hard time in both of those situations. I mean, I will do it, but it's like building that confidence. Like, I know that I am worth this amount, but it seems like people, there's so much pushback and I wonder if if part of it is how, how I and how other women [00:15:30] maybe react to having someone question your question, your rate or question your value. Like am I caving too much too quickly versus, you know, coming back and saying, here's the value in it. So just food for thought as we're talking about and having the conversation for sure.
Nancy McClelland: Candy, I want to um, I want to ask specifically and, and of course I'm asking this because I already know the answer. Um, but because [00:16:00] I heard because I heard your podcast with Heather Satterly last year. Um, but to get back to your story, what happened when you started your own firm and you had problems pricing, um, do you mind sharing openly with us about some of those issues?
Candy Bellau: Well, there was there was a lot of problems. Um, I definitely did not. And there was also something in this mentality [00:16:30] of when I went from New York to New Orleans, you know, when I lived in New York, I knew what I could command. I had a whole network of people. I had people that were calling me to come work, and I could ask my price and they'd say, whatever you want, we just need you. And I got accustomed to that. When I moved to New Orleans, I had zero network. I had nobody that. [00:17:00] And as much as my husband knew everybody. He's like the mayor. Help me. Because the way they worked in New Orleans was they hired their friend. They went to school with, you know, everybody works with people they know, and they didn't know me. I was an outsider. I was a New Yorker, like people from New Orleans don't like New Yorkers or people from California. Even my husband used to write blog posts about these horrible people from New York. And I was.
Nancy McClelland: Like.
Questian Telka: Um, you're not like them? [00:17:30] I'm like.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, wow.
Candy Bellau: Yeah. So he's like, New Yorkers ruin New Orleans. And so I was an outsider. So when I started, I was making money in New York when I had my firm. I know this sounds crazy, and I walked away from it and moved for love to New Orleans. Walked away from everything. Started up. And I thought, oh, these people can't afford New York prices.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, gosh.
Candy Bellau: And I immediately brought it way down, and I knew [00:18:00] what I was bringing to the table. I knew what I years of experience, all the things I know, and I didn't ask for the same price I was asking for in New York. I was asking for like maybe $25 an hour. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is just like too much.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: And this is I had already had a huge pinnacle of my career. I had done so much. And here I am asking for almost [00:18:30] nothing. And then I did start doing some consulting, Thing which paid better, but not like it was a third of maybe or even less of what I was getting in New York. But I thought my husband's like, wow, you're making a lot of money here. And I'm like, no idea what money is like. If you think this is money, you know? But it was just I had to work, I had to eat, I had to do things. But at the same time, I was lying [00:19:00] about my reality and trying to live the same lifestyle I had in New York without making the money and trying to hide it and trying to make sure we can go out for dinner. Yeah, let's go on vacation. I had two homes. I had a vacation house in the Poconos and a home on a lake in New York, in Long Island that I was trying to pay for while living in New Orleans.
Nancy McClelland: And you [00:19:30] were making a third what you had been making Wow.
Candy Bellau: And I did everything I would never let a client do. I depleted my retirement account, which was very large because I was making so much money in New York. I was I had all my bonuses went away, and I'd get a year's salary as a bonus. I put it away. So I went through that. I started using credit cards, started taking cash advances, and I remember the day [00:20:00] I couldn't pay the minimum on my credit card and I had the mortgages due.
Questian Telka: Oh, no.
Candy Bellau: And I didn't know what I was going to do. And I admitted he was my boyfriend. I don't know why this man married me every time. Why did he marry me? You know, I've given him every red flag there is. And I told him I didn't speak to me for three days. And then he said, we're going to figure this out. And this is. My husband's a former pro cyclist [00:20:30] who raced most of the year and worked a few months, saved his money and lived very frugally off of what he made to make it last for the year. I was not contributing to our household and I said, well, you paid for the bills before I got here. Why should I pay for them now? But I didn't want him to know it was that I couldn't afford to give him money, too.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, wow.
Candy Bellau: And so I finally broke down and just told him everything. And we did. It took a hot [00:21:00] minute. We worked through it. Um, and there was more to that with, you know, the pricing and just bad choices, bad decisions, predatory loans. You know, I would never let a client, like I said, do what I did. And my clients were all making money and I was charging them almost nothing. And I did everything for them. Like they probably didn't have to get up out of bed in the morning. I ran their teams, I did their HR, I did all compliance, I did Books [00:21:30] I. I didn't answer the phones. I pick up their mail. I mean, I did everything.
Nancy McClelland: And oh my goodness.
Candy Bellau: I was charging with 350 a month.
Questian Telka: Oh.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Questian Telka: Wow.
Candy Bellau: I was working around the clock. It was. It was bad.
Nancy McClelland: It was bad.
Questian Telka: So what? What changed? Where how how did you flip that? Like.
Candy Bellau: Well, I dealt with that old situation which lingered for a while because there was, you know, [00:22:00] first it paid off the predatory loans. And I had negotiate my credit cards. I ended up one house, went, um, we did a, a deed in lieu, so I gave it back to the bank. The other one, we did a short sale. Um, so my credit was smashed. Like, it was terrible. This is me, a girl who, in New York. I stopped on the way to the beach into a dealership and said. I just wanted to see what it would be like to have [00:22:30] a convertible. I pulled into BMW. I left and took the BMW to the beach.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness.
Candy Bellau: And I said, I don't have my checkbook, I have nothing with me. And they said, we ran your credit. We don't think you've ever not returned a book to the library. Take the.
Nancy McClelland: Call.
Candy Bellau: You're good. Just stop in next week and we'll do the paperwork. And I'm like, okay, and I. They said, go, go show off to your friends that you've got a convertible BMW.
Nancy McClelland: Right? Oh my God.
Candy Bellau: Here I am not able to pay my [00:23:00] minimum on my credit card. You know, it was wild. I didn't know the person I had become. And, you know, it just kept compounding. And I thought it was getting a little bit better. And I signed up for a class. I had heard about a Facebook post, you know, learn marketing for accountants. And I thought, this is what I need. And it was $6,000. I was broke, [00:23:30] like I. I used to always having money. I was broke and I signed up for this class, and it's a it was a Facebook group. And in the group they had a marketing script where, um, they taught you what to say. And I thought it was all for accounting firm owners and accountants. It wasn't. It was tired of doing hair. Be an accountant. Don't want to.
Questian Telka: Fix cars.
Candy Bellau: Anymore. [00:24:00] Be an accountant.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, no. I'm sitting in this group. $6,000. And that's what you got? Morons.
Candy Bellau: Literal morons in this group.
Nancy McClelland: God.
Candy Bellau: Mixed in with a few actual real accountants and CPAs, which we all kind of were like. Wait, did you think this was something else? And we ended up kind of forming our own? Those are some of the closest friends I still talk to today.
Questian Telka: Wow.
Candy Bellau: From that group, [00:24:30] because we were the only people that we realized they would ask a question like, what's QuickBooks? And we were responding to everything. And then they'd say, just close my first $4,000 a month deal. How do you record when you buy a loan or you get a loan? Like how what is a bank reconciliation?
Nancy McClelland: Wait a minute. So these people were learning the marketing, but they didn't know how to do any of it. How can you close a $4,000 a month deal if you don't know? Script with a script with a script? Oh, [00:25:00] Candy. Oh, and.
Candy Bellau: I sat there. I never completed this course. I never went through the whole thing. I just sat there getting gut punched. And I don't know how many breakdowns I've had in my life, but this was another one of them. I went and fired every client I had.
Nancy McClelland: Really?
Candy Bellau: Yes.
Questian Telka: Wow.
Nancy McClelland: Really?
Candy Bellau: And I went home. And at that point, he was my husband because he loves me. [00:25:30] I don't know why, but he does. And I went home and I said, I've got good news. I said, I no longer have low priced clients. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, I've fired them all. He goes, I thought you couldn't pay the rent on the office. I had a huge office because I was going to be this big success, 1500 square foot office. I had me and like another person.
Questian Telka: And I fired.
Candy Bellau: Them all.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: And he said, why? And I said, need to make room for the good ones because.
Nancy McClelland: You have.
Candy Bellau: Any leads. I go, nope, but now I can [00:26:00] take them.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Questian Telka: And I'm like sweating thinking about that. Just like.
Nancy McClelland: And I'm thinking about the fact that, like, my apartment isn't even as big as, like, the place I live right now is not even as big as your office was.
Candy Bellau: We were living in a 600 square foot house in New Orleans with a baby at that point.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. But you had a 1500 square foot office that you were. I had a.
Candy Bellau: 1500 square foot office.
Nancy McClelland: My goodness. [00:26:30]
Candy Bellau: Three people.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Questian Telka: So how long did it take you to get this first big client, I hope. The next.
Candy Bellau: Day.
Nancy McClelland: Really?
Candy Bellau: I got a call saying I have somebody that I think could use your help. Could you go see them? I said, absolutely, I have time. And I went to see them. I talked to them and she said, well, what do you think it'll cost? And I said, sounds to me like it'll be 3500 a month. And she just paused and [00:27:00] said, that sounds fair. Where do I sign?
Nancy McClelland: Oh, Candy, that just sounds too good to be true. I mean, you went from somebody.
Candy Bellau: Like, looks out for me somewhere, and then I got another call. I replaced all the clients that I fired with two new clients.
Nancy McClelland: Now, I have a question for you. If you had still had all of the clients that you were charging a very small amount to, [00:27:30] and you had gotten those two calls for these other clients, would you have had to say no because you didn't have room for them?
Candy Bellau: 100%. I was working around the clock.
Questian Telka: Wow.
Candy Bellau: Around the clock. And I was not making it at all. I wasn't taking any pay. It was. It was so bad.
Nancy McClelland: And you were paying the people who were working for you.
Candy Bellau: Paying my employees. They got paid the rent got paid fairly. Um, but it was awful. It was really awful. And [00:28:00] I started to realize that you're really good at what you do. You know what you're doing, and you're going to start charging for it. And I did start to realize, you know, I didn't. I'm doing bookkeeping. And I had done so much in New York, like I built large companies. I had done, you know, turnarounds, I had done investigations, I had done so much. And here I am reconciling [00:28:30] a few bank accounts every month. And so I did get back into turnarounds and doing consulting and doing higher level work.
Nancy McClelland: And at that point you actually had the experience of your own turnaround to add to that knowledge base and, you know, empathy. Yeah, I.
Questian Telka: Know.
Candy Bellau: Because I used to be a pompous ass because I just always succeeded. So I didn't see any reason for people not. I was like, I don't know what your problem is. Like, I do it. [00:29:00] And and then when I lost everything, I'm like, oh, this is what it feels like. It sucks. You know.
Questian Telka: Like, this is not fun.
Candy Bellau: I it definitely made me way better as a partner with a company to understand what they were going through, to see where they were struggling, to see the tendencies to get your head out of the sand, to face things head on. Um, it definitely made me better, but [00:29:30] it was the one of the worst experiences of my life.
Nancy McClelland: Well, and there was no telling while you were in it whether you were going to ever come out of it or not. Yeah. I mean, that's that's part of the hard part. When you're going through something you can't you can't see your way out of it. It just feels like it's going to be like that forever. And you just have to keep holding on for one more day and hoping it gets better. Um.
Candy Bellau: And I also [00:30:00] realized, you know, work had always been my safe space where I was good, where I was loved, where people thought I was fantastic. And of course, I was smiling and pretending, you know, through that. But it felt to me there were only way out of it was to work more and to work harder. I wasn't working smarter and I wasn't really thinking about things. Instead of dealing it face on, I just did more work. Mhm, mhm.
Nancy McClelland: I think that's a [00:30:30] very, very common I know that I have done that numerous times, that just, just keep doing more as if that's somehow and that it turns out that that exacerbates the gap, it exacerbates the problem, it doesn't solve it. And so you do have to find some way to do it differently. And we'll we'll explore some of those solutions and, um, you know, changing the narrative and, and all of that. But, um, but I just got to say, your story is.
Questian Telka: Yes, [00:31:00] fascinating.
Nancy McClelland: Astonishing.
Questian Telka: Yeah, it's really amazing. And I talk.
Candy Bellau: About it because if I had had one person to speak to during that time like that, I felt like I could admit I felt like I and that's when I started going to conferences and I'd say so. Like how, how how's everything with you? Oh, everything's great. And I'm like, I am the only loser in the accounting industry. I'm the only failure. Everybody's successful. I'm the only one that hasn't figured this out. And as I found out, I'm not the only one. [00:31:30]
Nancy McClelland: No.
Candy Bellau: If I had just had somebody say, well, what do you charge? Or how would you price this, or am I doing this right? Or, you know, finding out about tools and software and just all the mistakes I was making and not and I was so afraid that people were going to find me out and then think I wasn't good at my job or I was really good at my job, was just bad at running an accounting firm. [00:32:00]
Nancy McClelland: That yes, that that feels.
Questian Telka: I remember.
Nancy McClelland: That remark.
Questian Telka: It's hard. It is, it's hard.
Nancy McClelland: It's a different it's also a different skill set. It really is. I mean, Pricing and operations are different skill sets than bookkeeping, accounting, tax fraud, all of those things. I want to briefly talk about the [00:32:30] discrepancy between men and women and and talk about why that happens and why that matters. And, um, so let's start with, I mean, I know we've talked in previous episodes about how women in accounting are paid less than men. Um, and there are a lot of reasons. Question I know you you did a whole session on, you know, the fact that they lack flexible work opportunities. Um, but this this is the side of the topic that you're talking about, [00:33:00] Candy, where we actually have some control, like women we can't necessarily do. There's not there's only so much we can do about the societal, the bigger societal issues. But there are some things that we can control about setting our own prices and asking for higher pay. And the fact of the matter is that when study after study after study, I'm linking to all of them in the show notes. Yeah, they show that women are undercharging compared to men.
Nancy McClelland: Um, and I believe that by reversing this trend, [00:33:30] we can really not only improve. You know, you talked about the personal changes that that made in your life and professionally as well. But I really think that we can lift up the industry as a whole. So let's talk about why this is happening. I mean, the median woman in an online labor marketplace in the US sets a bill rate that's 13.5% lower than a median man. Um, there is a lot of data [00:34:00] that shows that women, um, when we're in professional services, set our prices. Um, there's a large range, but like it starts at at least 25% lower than men and it goes to a much larger, um, or I, you know, larger, lower percent. It's bad. Like, it's actually really, really bad. Um, there are also a lot of studies that show that men have [00:34:30] higher salary expectations than women, and they price higher because they perceive bringing more value to the labor market, and they're more likely to price based on self-esteem. So we end up.
Questian Telka: With.
Nancy McClelland: All of, you know, lots of really nasty consequences here lower profitability, reduced income, the gender wage gap that I know you talk about a lot. Uh.
Questian Telka: I would say that for me, because I am I will feel I fall into [00:35:00] that. I fall into that. So typical underpricing like I, I do recognize my value. And I know, like Andy said, I'm like, I'm good. I know I'm good at what I do, but I'm still like this. This whole idea of compassionate pricing is a real problem for me. I mean, I work with nonprofits, right? So it's like I am always trying to be conscientious of the work that they're doing and affordability. But [00:35:30] the bottom line is that, like it's what we do is not easy. It's complicated. It's hard. It takes it's time consuming and you need a lot of knowledge to do it correctly.
Nancy McClelland: And yes.
Questian Telka: Um.
Nancy McClelland: The compassionate pricing thing, you know, one of the articles that I read, a study, um, in an article was and this isn't accounting specific, but it was in the veterinary, um, industry that [00:36:00] female veterinarians are constantly the compassionate pricing thing that you were just saying that that's really huge for them. And they far Underprice compared to male veterinarians. So this is not just that. I mean, doesn't it make sense?
Questian Telka: Yeah. Because imagine somebody taking their pet to the doctor's office and they're like, well, I can't afford to pay for that. And so they're like, just go ahead and put them to sleep. And so then someone's going.
Nancy McClelland: Right.
Questian Telka: You know, hey, well, I'll just underprice it. And the whole concept of the, um, prioritizing [00:36:30] loyalty over revenue and those relationships, when there are situations where I know I need to be increasing my prices or charging more, and it's always in my mind like, can they afford this? And it's like, what I really need to be asking myself is, can you?
Nancy McClelland: Right. Yeah. And yet we don't want to take ourselves out of that. Like I want to be a helper. I'm proud of being a helper. So what are some things that we can do about this? We know it's happening. We know that there are are consequences. [00:37:00] You know, there are lots of drivers to this.
Candy Bellau: Yeah. So for me, one of the big aha moments was I can't help anybody if I have to shut this place down and get a job. So that's going to be of no use to anybody.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Candy Bellau: The thing that I want to do is to help, but to help means that I have to be sustainable. And I wasn't using that mindset. I was thinking, I'm just going to [00:37:30] help. But the person I wasn't helping was me or my team. I was helping everybody else and everybody else buying second houses, boats and stuff. And here I am thinking we'll just have spaghetti again tonight for dinner. You know, like, you know, and I don't need a second house or boats or things like that, but I need to know that my bills are getting paid and I can sleep at night and not worry about everything. I need to know that I can pay my team and payroll is going to be there, and that I have money set aside. So if a client leaves, [00:38:00] it's not like, oh my gosh, the sky is falling. It's okay. Well, we're prepared for this, you know. And I did not have that time. And and Nancy, you know, with mom, that whole situation, I had to end up letting go of a lot of things because I had to make her the priority.
Nancy McClelland: Mhm.
Candy Bellau: And some of the things I realized and saw from stepping [00:38:30] away and sometimes you're too close to it, sometimes you're just in so deep it's easy to stay busy than to actually deal with it. And I know I did that often.
Questian Telka: Oh that's so true. I mean that happens to me. It's like, oh, I don't have time to sit down and take a step back and look at all the rates that I'm charging everyone, because I am too much in the hamster wheel right now trying to get everything accomplished. Yes.
Candy Bellau: I have to get it finished. I don't have time to do that, you know. And you leave it and you put it off. And the thing is, is that [00:39:00] there's so much of this that you're just not going to be sustainable and you can't help people and you start to, you know, at one point I had a team of 12. Right now we're a team of three. But I would ask them questions. What is it that I thought, I'm doing all these great things. What could I do that would make you happy? And, you know, there's a few things. One came to me once when I had promoted her and gave her a raise, and she [00:39:30] said, I just want you to know, this is the first time in my life that I'm living with somebody out of choice and not need. Oh, because for the first time in my life, I am making enough money to leave. I've never.
Nancy McClelland: Been.
Candy Bellau: Able to support myself, and so I've always lived with a man, and most of it was because I had to. And she said the entire dynamic of our relationship has shifted because I know I'm there because I want to be there.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, God, [00:40:00] you're breaking my heart here, Candy. And I said, okay.
Candy Bellau: This is a new goal of mine. Everybody needs to make a wage that they can live off of with out a man. So that became one of my driving forces. I have to make enough money that if anybody wants to leave, they can and they're not going to feel forced. They have to stay.
Nancy McClelland: So this was not just about getting you out of a hole and getting you and your family healthy again when you.
Questian Telka: About your team.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. [00:40:30] And, you know, question. You talk all the time about remembering your why candy saying she had to remember her why in terms of she's not going to be able to help anybody if she has to close the business. But you're not just talking about your clients there. You're talking about making a difference in the lives of the people who work with you. Yeah. That's right. And I had.
Candy Bellau: So many people that were there for me in terms of when I worked for private industry. I had great mentors that got me to where I was. I [00:41:00] just forgot it all when I opened my own firm. But, you know, the, um, the there was a few other things is when I went through, I never thought I was having children. And then I went and had a month before I turned 48, I gave birth to a child. So.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: Here. I have no.
Questian Telka: Idea. That's incredible.
Candy Bellau: I was a horrible boss to people who had given birth to children because they would say, the kid's sick. And I'm like, well, clearly you knew you were going to have a child, so you didn't figure out a back up [00:41:30] plan. I don't understand this. Like I was that boss, I was not.
Questian Telka: Oh my God.
Nancy McClelland: Everything I know about you is completely the opposite of you. Of some of the things I'm hearing here.
Candy Bellau: New York is cut throat, like you've got to move or you are going to get run over.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: So and I was running large companies. I had teams of people, I was running it. We were very I and I think I was called most of them and apologized. And they were like, you're too hard on yourself. You weren't that [00:42:00] bad. And I was like, I know I wasn't very nice, you know? But I also then realized, and as I had a crib in the office to take care of my child, which, you know, and I've also mentioned the postpartum, I didn't want any part of this child after I had it. I loved my child, but I was going through a lot. Yeah. And, um, I realized also that when my team had children, I wanted to give them the time off. Yeah, how could I afford that?
Nancy McClelland: That's been [00:42:30] very important in our own firm.
Candy Bellau: Right. And like, you think of these things. And then I had another one come to me when I said, ask randomly what? What would be something we could do as a firm? Somebody said, I would love if I could take my kid to the doctor when they were sick. I would love when I was sick if I could go to the doctor. I don't have health insurance.
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: Like, okay, I dropped my family health insurance, came back to the team and said, okay, here's the deal. Until [00:43:00] we all have health insurance, nobody has health insurance.
Nancy McClelland: Oh my goodness.
Candy Bellau: Insurance. Now, my husband at that point was not happy.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Candy Bellau: And I said I figured out what it's going to cost for all of us to have health insurance. Here's what I will do. I will pay for you and your children. Your husband has to pay for himself. And I figured out the cost. And I am telling you like that I had enough revenue to bring the insurance back for the team because I knew I needed it and I knew they needed [00:43:30] it. And it was a really good incentive for me. And I was like, trying to explain like this. It's not just bringing in an account to cover that. Like, you know, we have to have that extra money to pay it. And we did and we did it quickly. And I said, okay, these are the things that are important to me. And if clients don't want to work with us and the way that we've got things set up, they're not our client. And it's okay Hey.
Questian Telka: Because there's other.
Candy Bellau: People that will take [00:44:00] them. And we're only making room for people that also understand. Our family comes first. You know, if you need a financial statement, we're getting it to you every month. If you forgot you needed it for something and our kid's sick, you're screwed. Sorry. Like.
Nancy McClelland: This reminds me so much of, um. This reminds me so much of a client of mine who, um, ran a small bookstore here in our neighborhood. [00:44:30] Um, you all know that I have a hyper local client base. She had a phrase. No margin, no mission. And what that meant would her her team would come to her and say, oh, we have this great idea for a program where we're, you know, we're going to have give books to, you know, after school programs, and we're going to do a thing where we host a, um, you know, a, a book club, and we're going to do all of these different things in the community. And she was like, [00:45:00] if we are not making enough money to support those missions, then those missions can't happen, right? The margin has to come first and you can have that mission. But as you said, you're building to like, here's my mission. Everybody's going to have health insurance, and now you build the margin to be able to afford that mission. And I really, really love that phrase. But I've always thought of it in terms of what we do in the community. It's never occurred to me [00:45:30] to take the perspective that you're taking, which is no margin, no mission. If we don't make enough money, we can't have the mission that we want internally for our teams and for the health of the families, um, of our employees.
Nancy McClelland: And I just I think that's absolutely, absolutely inspiring. It takes the compassionate pricing that question was talking about earlier and really sort of makes the compassion internal first, external second. So [00:46:00] I really, really love that. I would love to talk a little bit more about some of these hidden drivers and how we can solve for them. So we've already talked about relationship orientation and compassionate pricing and prioritizing loyalty over revenue. But some of the other things that my research turned up is that women tend to base price on cost rather than value. Um, so that cost sensitivity is a big one. Another one is [00:46:30] social conditioning. So in society we're taught not to take up space. Um, and not taking up space is part of keeping prices, quote unquote, reasonable, making ourselves smaller, making our impact smaller. And, um, by contrast, men tend to default to value based pricing and bolder assumptions and projections and higher starting points. Complaints. And Candy, I know that you've been in situations where you've had a. An opportunity to see a direct [00:47:00] comparison of how men were pricing versus how women were pricing. Can you please tell us about some of your first tell us about your your emotional reactions to discovering this information. And they.
Questian Telka: All.
Candy Bellau: Totally pissed me off to see this. And, you know, I have a lot of friends in the industry, and I many people know I worked for Woodard, and I coached and I taught, and I got to know a lot more people [00:47:30] and have deeper conversations about pricing and strategies and what they do. But I also have this whole other group of male industry leaders, CPAs, CFOs that would when I got to know them, they would say, hey, I'm going to be doing a sales call. Would you come do it with me? I'll say, you're on the team and then you could help me come up with pricing. I'd say, yeah, sure, I'd listen and I'd listen in and I start to suspect they [00:48:00] had no idea about this client or the industry. And they brought me in knowing, you know, I'm going to cinch this thing and ask the right questions and bring the stuff up and figure it out. And then we end and they would say to me, well, what would you charge? And this is after I got my pricing better. Okay. And I might sit and say, I know what I'm doing. I would do this for like 5000 a month and like 5000 [00:48:30] a month. Are you insane? I wouldn't do this for less than ten.
Nancy McClelland: And these are the people who actually didn't know the industry, didn't know the client and didn't understand the problems.
Candy Bellau: And say $10,000 a month. And they'd say, yeah. And I'm like, can I ask you something? Do you know how to do that work? And they'd say, I have no idea, but you'll clearly do it for five and I'll charge them ten.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, Candy.
Candy Bellau: No, no. Do [00:49:00] I feel the anger boiling up in me as I'm sharing? I know I'm like. That's happened more than once. No joke. And every time they had no idea what they were doing. And if they weren't going to bring me in, they said I'll do it myself for ten grand a month. I'll just figure out how to do it. And I'm like, there are things you need to think about for that kind of client.
Questian Telka: You can't just do I. Yes. I'm sorry. It burns me when people make it sound like doing [00:49:30] bookkeeping and accounting. Work is simple. Like, oh, here, let me just. I'll just take this course. That takes you three hours, and you're going to know everything you need to know. I'm sorry you're not servicing your clients the way you should be servicing your clients. And so here's our thing.
Candy Bellau: It's easy for us because we know what we're doing, right. So we go.
Nancy McClelland: In my head, it's like, well, this will only take me an hour, but it's not an hour. It's an hour plus 30 years of experience.
Candy Bellau: And I have to learn [00:50:00] this whole thing. This is going to take me forever. Or I gotta, like, find a person who could do it, that I could sub it out to them. Yeah, they're not even worried. And so because it's easy for us, we price that way because we want to help. We're hearing the sob story. We're hearing how bad it is, and we know we can fix it. We know we know what to do. We can make it better. And it's going to be easy because we know what we're doing. And so we charge that way instead of charging for what [00:50:30] we are bringing to the table the conferences, the education, the years, all the things we went through to know this, that it's easy and that this person can call us and we're going to have answers or know who to send them to, or to know enough to say, I can answer that, but we really need a lawyer here. Let's bring.
Nancy McClelland: That in.
Candy Bellau: Make sure we know enough of what we know and don't know. These other people don't, but they have confidence. And people with confidence have no problem asking for [00:51:00] something that they don't deserve, that they haven't earned. They don't care.
Nancy McClelland: But here's the thing, Candy, is that I. I find myself going around in circles with this question, and I have talked about this a little bit on some of the other episodes. I find myself going in circles because I know that we need to have more confidence in order to ask what what we're worth, right? But I don't want that confidence to be empty. And lots of other women are like that [00:51:30] too. We say, well, yes, I know.
Questian Telka: There's no.
Nancy McClelland: No.
Questian Telka: Sorry to interrupt, but there's.
Nancy McClelland: I'm proud of you for interrupting. You're finally getting.
Questian Telka: To.
Nancy McClelland: The point. I love this about you question. I love seeing you.
Questian Telka: I know I'm not an interrupter.
Nancy McClelland: It's great.
Questian Telka: It's the. It's the like. I don't ever want to hear somebody say fake it till you make it right. Right. Like, that's I don't know if that's where you're going, but that's what. That's exactly what my mind. It's like, no, we don't fake it. [00:52:00] You can't fake it.
Nancy McClelland: We don't want you to fake it until you make it. But we do want you to see that you should have more confidence than you have. So how do we know? In and of ourselves. Like, how do we know where that line is drawn? Like, how do we. And so I find myself in a catch 22 about that all the time to develop more confidence. You know you have to learn more. But at what point when you are undervaluing your own confidence? That's why I named this episode Marking Ourselves down. [00:52:30]
Questian Telka: Down.
Nancy McClelland: Because we are doing it to ourselves. How do we know when you get to that moment where you say, I am confident that I can and I'm going to price confidently because I know what I'm doing. How do we get to that point without constantly undervaluing ourselves and I get stuck?
Questian Telka: That's a good point that you're making. Also, what Candy had said is that once we master that [00:53:00] thing and we've done it on repeat you for 30 years, Nancy, you start to think of it as simple, but it's it's not simple. It's not simple at all. And so it's like, where does that, like you said, that I can that cycle happens to me as well. It's like I was trying to price a cleanup today and I was like, this isn't you know, this is nasty. And I was like, this is I mean, it was I was excited about it when I saw it because I was like, this is going to be fun. Um, but, you know, it's like that the in [00:53:30] my mind, I'm going, oh, I should charge this amount. But it's like, because I know that I can I know that I can clean this up. I know I was underpricing it in my mind already, just based off of what she said. Oh yeah. Yeah. That point that she just made. Completely.
Nancy McClelland: Just right now. So before this episode, you were working on pricing a cleanup. Now you've sat here with Candy for a while. And when you go away from this, from recording this episode today, you're going to price it higher.
Questian Telka: Higher because [00:54:00] it's a difficult cleanup. It's not an easy one. And I know I can do it because I know that I'm good at it. But I in my mind, I know that if I would have tried to price it probably earlier on, I would have been like, oh, that's really hard. I'm going to price it more. So I probably would have priced it more a couple of years ago now.
Nancy McClelland: Because it became easy for you. Okay, well, that actually there are five solutions [00:54:30] here that I have that are really specific and one and, and you've just, um, you've just illustrated one of them. So I'm actually going to start with this with the third. With the third one because building community is part of the solution here. Normalizing these conversations around fees and raises, um, because you came here and had this conversation with a colleague of [00:55:00] yours. You are now going to go back out and you're going to price it. You're going to be like, oh, wait a minute. Just because it's easy for me, you're going to you're going to price based on value more than you're pricing based on how many hours it's going to take or.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I also recognize that this and something that comes to mind too, which I wouldn't have been thinking about before either, is this particular client has already went through a couple of accounting firms that haven't been able to [00:55:30] solve their problems.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, interesting.
Questian Telka: And so it's like, I know what I need to do to fix it so I know it can be done. Right. But those are things that I don't know. Just after sitting here and having this conversation, it's like, you know what? That's that's something that needs to be taken into consideration too. It's like, I, I can provide the solution. Somebody else. Several people have not been able to get it done for you. There's value in that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah for sure. All right. Well Candy, [00:56:00] let's go through the rest of, of this list with you because I want to make sure people have these, these things. They your your story has just been so eye opening and, and, you know, in part inspiring storyteller. You are a great storyteller. All right. So I'm going to list the five things. And you can talk about them in whatever order you like. One of them is reframing pricing. So starting with value not cost or comparison number [00:56:30] two practice raising rates. You can do this incrementally. Just rehearsing that ask over and over. Um, my colleague Andrea McDonald, um, she talked about how many, um, iterations she's gone through in order to get pricing right in her firm so she doesn't raise prices for everybody. At the same time, she just picks a group. And, um, I love that idea of, like, practicing raising your rates. Um, building community. [00:57:00] We just talked about normalizing these conversations, modeling confidence. So women showing other women what's possible, which is what you are doing for us right this very moment, Candy, and to recognize that the decisions that we're making here, this is this is number five. They have long term impact because closing this pricing gap between men and women is not just helping us personally [00:57:30] and professionally. It's helping, as you discussed, the employees in our firms. It's helping the industry as a whole. It's helping people who are having these conversations on podcasts like Unbalanced and She Counts, and taking the stage at conferences to talk about pricing and getting this out in the open. We can actually make a difference when expectations are not go with a woman because she'll charge less.
Candy Bellau: Just [00:58:00] made me so angry.
Questian Telka: Ouch. I know, I'm like.
Nancy McClelland: If you knew the number of articles and studies that I read coming into this that. Yeah, um, again, I will I will link to these in the show notes so that people can get incensed on their own if they would like to do that. But this is this is actually a thing. So let's candy, let's talk through these solutions because I, I know that you've put a lot of these in place. [00:58:30] How can you help us do these five things?
Candy Bellau: Community 100%. Um, I do. Often people will call me and say, I have a new client. Can I hop on a call with you? And can we do pricing? And I do this for free for anybody that wants in the industry. As long as I have time.
Questian Telka: Why? You might not want to. You might not want to put that out there on a podcast.
Candy Bellau: Maybe not for your friends. [00:59:00]
Candy Bellau: But seriously, I think you need to start somewhere or find a friend you can talk to. Don't just go at it alone and say, I have a new client coming in. Can I talk to you about it? Right. Even if it's not me, if call somebody you know and ask somebody you respect, somebody that you know in the industry and go over these things. I like to look at what the person would have to pay to bring in a person to do this job. And yes, [00:59:30] I'm not doing the full amount. I mean, if it's if the person And I'm going over and not maybe at my level of expertise, but for the job that they're looking for, maybe it pays, I don't know, $60,000 a year. So why would I feel bad about asking for 3000 or 3500 a month? They're getting me, which is way overqualified from that 60,000 person year. They're still saving money. They're getting an entire team. They're getting the work done professionally. [01:00:00] I'm not going to feel bad about that. And I have told people when I've spoken to them, this sounds like a great opportunity, but you're not ready for a firm like me.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, that reminds me of some of the, um, language that Carlos Garcia talks about. You know, in, um. Oh, I'm trying to remember what what exactly to say. He's got that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, which.
Candy Bellau: I read that book. I love that book.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, there's a version of it that's specifically for accountants. [01:00:30] That's the version that I would recommend people read. And he spoke about this at Bridging the Gap as well. But that that language that you just used, like, I'm not sure you're ready for us. That actually creates a sense.
Candy Bellau: It does.
Nancy McClelland: But wait a minute, but I want to be ready for you.
Candy Bellau: Right? And I give him a step by step. Here's where you need to be to be ready for a firm like me right now, it'd be way too much money for where you're at in your company's life cycle. But when you hit this point and you're looking [01:01:00] to achieve these things, I'm the exact firm you want to bring in the door because we'll make sure you get there. But right now, you could get away with a firm that can offer you these things. But do you.
Questian Telka: Have a template? No,
Candy Bellau: It's just like it just honestly and it was more as I got more comfortable with me and speaking the truth and not worrying if they were going to like, I feel like I say it in [01:01:30] a nice way. I'm not. I don't want them to, you know, hate me or.
Questian Telka: Yeah. You're not meaning to be offensive. You're just being honest.
Candy Bellau: Yes. To say, look you have a great business model here, but these are the steps you need to take before you come to me. And and I'll explain to him, you know, and I might say, you know, we start at $5,000 a month, and you don't even have an office with a, you know, you don't have a receptionist yet. Like, you've got to do a lot of things and we'll throw out numbers. [01:02:00] Do I start? Do I have people paying less than 5000 a month? Yes. You know, but it has to make sense for us. But I do like to look at what they would come. It would be comparable for them to bring somebody in knowing what we're bringing to the table. I do also want to consider what they've been paying, where their revenues at, what they can bring in, and maybe for what I need for my company, they're not large enough for [01:02:30] us. Could I do the work? Absolutely. I would also question with the cleanups. I don't I feel like I can't reward people for bad behavior. So if you need 12 months cleaned up and my monthly rate, I figured was going to be 3000. Well, we have to go back the 12 months and it's the same monthly amount because if I discount it, you're going to say, why did I sign on monthly? I'll just come in once a year and you'll [01:03:00] do it.
Questian Telka: So do it at tax time.
Candy Bellau: Yes. No more rewarding bad behavior.
Nancy McClelland: Now see I won't I don't price it that way. I know that that's something that a lot of people do. Um, but I because I work with micro businesses in my community and we're mission driven. I want them to be motivated to work with me because I know we're really, really, really good. And if I want to support them and their role in keeping chains out of our neighborhood, then what I'll do is I'll say, [01:03:30] I'm going to I'm going to give you a break on this. But this is contingent on an engagement moving forward, a monthly engagement moving forward. You can't just we're not going to do the cleanup. And then in a year, do another cleanup.
Questian Telka: No.
Nancy McClelland: Do the cleanup. You have to commit to working with us on a monthly basis moving forward.
Questian Telka: The other alternative is, you know, it's it's if you're not wanting to charge that same amount every month, it's like, I will do this for you. One time I will not. Yeah. Like you said, if you don't sign on and [01:04:00] you come back to me, you can look elsewhere. Like I'm not going to give you a reduced rate. But I think that that's a much better idea is just saying, hey, we sign on for monthly recurring services.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I won't even do the cleanup unless they commit to the monthly recurring service.
Candy Bellau: I won't offer recurring services until after the cleanup, and I've decided. Do I really like these people enough to stay with them? Everyone.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, wow.
Candy Bellau: So I consider that my dating the cleanup is the dating phase.
Questian Telka: Dating phase?
Candy Bellau: Are they getting [01:04:30] what I want? What's the gut check? Because I could get through a cleanup. No problem. Do I actually still want to talk to these people when it's done?
Nancy McClelland: Wow.
Candy Bellau: Yeah, that's what I decide. And then say, look, we've got you straight. You can find anybody to keep you going. We don't have the capacity for additional monthly. We just don't like you. But, you know, it's it's the gut check of. Is this gonna be too much on the team because they were such a pain during the cleanup. You know.
Nancy McClelland: Is [01:05:00] this the same thing that you do for your fraud work or not? Is this only for the bookkeeping?
Candy Bellau: Fraud work is very different. Um, you know, fraud work is project based. So typically you're going in to do a project and it's hopefully it's not recovering work. Right?
Nancy McClelland: I guess that's a good point. It's fraud.
Questian Telka: Um.
Candy Bellau: And I will do a plug for anchor and getting paid upfront. Yeah. Which, um, you know, and for any there's so many platforms out there [01:05:30] get paid up front. That was a big mistake I made was thinking people were going to pay me after. If you don't pay me up front, I don't lift a finger, I do nothing.
Questian Telka: So I am the same. I am the same. I will at least. I will at least get 50%, if not three quarters, and then build the rest at the end.
Candy Bellau: Yeah, you have to get paid up front and just ask for it. Just say, here's I've.
Questian Telka: Never had a [01:06:00] problem. I've never had a problem with someone saying no. One of the things that I do is you were talking about this dating period. My firm is small enough that I can do this. I know there are a lot of bigger firms that that wouldn't do this, but I, I really am. I'm very good at vetting whether or not someone's going to be a good client and meet my ideal client profile in about 15 minutes on a call with them. Like I can tell very quickly. Yeah. So this is, um. That's [01:06:30] something that I tend to I, I can tell before I do a cleanup. I've never gotten myself in a situation where I've ended up in a cleanup and then, you know, been like, I don't want to work with this person anymore. It's never happened. So it's.
Nancy McClelland: Cool.
Questian Telka: I'm I'm. I read people really well. That's one of my talents.
Candy Bellau: Well, I found my team may not. So I don't do any of the client work anymore. So I'll turn a lot of people down. Just know we don't have capacity because I just don't like their vibe when I'm talking to them. [01:07:00]
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah, but.
Candy Bellau: I may bring them on for a cleanup or something. And I think they're awesome. Like, I love artistic people who are totally flaky and I just.
Questian Telka: Eccentric, and I.
Candy Bellau: Love that my team is very they are.
Questian Telka: They don't.
Candy Bellau: We want stuff done. And so they may not vibe with that. And so we'll make a decision because I'm not doing the work. I don't have to deal with it. They do. And as long as we have a we all have food and we have a roof over our [01:07:30] head and we can make payroll and stuff, you know, we'll we'll figure things out. But I'm not going to bring in something to torture them. Yeah I agree.
Questian Telka: Well, this has been such an amazing conversation. I feel like I've really learned so much myself here today. And as we begin to wrap up, we'd like to ask our listeners to follow our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode [01:08:00] Marking Ourselves Down. Do you feel that you struggle with pricing and asking for what you're worth?
Nancy McClelland: And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by none other than Oprah Winfrey. You get in life what you have the courage to ask for.
Questian Telka: Thank you so much for being here with us on She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home [01:08:30] for you, I know it did for me. Well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: So that you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please subscribe if you haven't already subscribed, please do [01:09:00] so. We would really love it. Um, we have an ask for everyone. Give us some reviews. We want reviews. We want to hear what topics you want to hear about. I think I recently put a post up on LinkedIn about that. So send us a message and email. Let us know and please share with other women in accounting who you also feel needs to hear this.
Nancy McClelland: Many thanks again to our amazing guest, our incredible friend Candy Bello. We are so glad you could join [01:09:30] us today! What a wonderful conversation and thank you from the bottom of my heart for being there for me during this very difficult time and coming to our rescue today. It and we knew we were eventually going to have you on the podcast to talk about pricing. Um, it just happened to be with, uh, you know, more like 24 hours notice. So. Are we really.
Questian Telka: It was amazing.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. You are exactly the person to, um, [01:10:00] make big change in our industry in this particular area. We're really lucky to have you.
Candy Bellau: Thank you all so much. Thank you for having me here. It feels good to, like, let some of this out and share it. And hopefully people won't make the mistakes I did.
Nancy McClelland: Well, Candy, let us know where people can find you.
Candy Bellau: Oh, I am on LinkedIn. Uh, candy bello b e l l a u. And, uh, I do have a consulting. Well, I have an accounting firm, [01:10:30] America Business Solutions, which we do primarily control the work. And our new company, which is a spin off, I don't know if you're hearing the Seinfeld reference, is Vandelay forensic Group. And that company will be entirely for fraud work. And we'll see. I also did recently pass my private investigator class.
Nancy McClelland: Woo!
Questian Telka: Congratulations.
Candy Bellau: Incorporate some of that work with the fraud work.
Nancy McClelland: Wow. That is fantastic. I love [01:11:00] that both of your companies have Seinfeld references. That's pretty hilarious.
Questian Telka: That's funny.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you so much.
Questian Telka: Thanks so much. And we'll see everyone in two weeks.