There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts, the Real Talk podcast for women in accounting, where your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Christian Tilka.
Nancy McClelland: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And you shouldn't [00:00:30] have to figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season two sponsors, Forwardly Relay and Client Hub. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at. W-2.
Questian Telka: And remember that you can get CPE credit for listening [00:01:00] at earmarked links to that, as well as any other resources, will be in the show notes.
Nancy McClelland: We're hoping to reach new listeners, so please help us out by subscribing and leaving us a review because it really helps other people find the podcast.
Questian Telka: Today's episode is called pancakes, Power Suits, and Personal Autonomy. What women wear at work isn't the problem.
Nancy McClelland: So recently there was an article from [00:01:30] 2019 that resurfaced and question and I became aware of it, which prompted this episode. So today we're talking about this thing that nobody wants to admit or have a conversation about, which is that women's clothes are still treated like a workplace hazard. Apparently, an inappropriate blouse can derail a whole meeting. And we're unpacking where this nonsense comes from, how it shows up in accounting, and why women should be free [00:02:00] to dress like adults without babysitting anyone else's self-control.
Questian Telka: And we love launching. As everyone knows, each episode with a story, and we certainly have one for this episode. So when we were in one of our regular chats that Nancy and I tend to have with colleagues in WhatsApp, one of our accounting peers shared an article I don't even remember like what prompted the sharing of the [00:02:30] article? Probably the fact that it had resurfaced. And, um, it was an article that on Huffington Post or HuffPost that was discussing how a big four accounting firm had created a half day workshop in new Jersey titled power, Presence and Purpose for 30 of their female executives, and some of the [00:03:00] materials reported in the article were, um, you know, kind of a presentation on how women should dress, how women should behave in the workplace, in the workplace.
Nancy McClelland: And I think one of the really problematic things about that was that, so it was a 55 page presentation and there was a masculine slash feminine score sheet. Right. So I think how it worked. [00:03:30] Question. Correct me if I'm wrong. Participants would take the score sheet and they would self-rate themselves on these like traits that are either masculine or feminine.
Questian Telka: Yeah, that's my that's my recollection as well. And um, one of the quotes in the article that like, really, this is what got us talking, I think, in the chat in the first place, and it was so interesting to like hear all of our male peers, like, chime in and basically [00:04:00] defend all of their female colleagues and discuss how ridiculous it was. But it said women's brains absorb information like pancakes soak up sirup, so it's hard for them to focus. The attendees were this is what the attendees were told. And men's brains are more like waffles. They're better able to focus because, sorry, they're better able to focus because the information collects in each little waffle square. Imagine that being like the quote that you're known for for the rest of your [00:04:30] life.
Nancy McClelland: I totally got a visual. Okay, so we've got a waffle and you pour sirup on it, and it collects in each of these little squares, and then you've got a pancake and you pour sirup on it and it soaks into the pancake. Yeah. And so supposedly sirup.
Questian Telka: Makes, makes it hard for us to, to focus.
Nancy McClelland: Which is interesting because, you know, normally it's a compliment when we say that somebody soaks something up like a sponge. You know, I would think soaking information [00:05:00] up like a pancake would be a good thing, as opposed to resisting it and having it collect in. Hard to find little. But I digress. Apparently women are pancakes.
Questian Telka: And maybe we should, like, stop, um, making men and women like food items. I don't know, like I or comparing them to food. That would be a good start, I think.
Nancy McClelland: So, um, [00:05:30] whether whether we're waffles or pancakes, either way, we've got apparently a masculine side and a feminine side. So they had this score sheet where the pancakes were supposed to be saying whether they're more masculine or more feminine in certain things. And then the waffles were supposed to say whether they were more masculine or more feminine in certain things. So what were some of the masculine ones?
Questian Telka: Acts like a leader athletic, aggressive, independent and [00:06:00] feminine, eager to soothe. Hurt feelings. Shy. Understanding. Loves children. Cheerful. Oh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: So this makes sense. It's. Men don't love children and they're not understanding. Is that what I'm supposed to take away from this? And women don't act like leaders. Um, and they're. And they're not independent. Okay, so far, this is going really poorly.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Of course. Right. So, I mean, I'm really you and I were shocked.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So [00:06:30] this was an article from 2019 about a meeting that happened in 2018.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I think that's right.
Nancy McClelland: You know, this is this is seven years ago, but even seven years ago, like I'm shocked that these types of conversations are still happening.
Questian Telka: I know you think about it. It really wasn't that long ago that that that someone put on a training and, um, said some of these things and there were a lot of things in the article that that came out in that were part of the training. And, um, you know, I think this [00:07:00] Big Four and I don't know if we're sharing it, if you people can easily find it, that they got wrong. Is it one of the things which I found? Are you are you.
Nancy McClelland: Trying not to use the name of the company that did this?
Questian Telka: I don't know, do we want to do that?
Nancy McClelland: I mean, they're one of the big four. It's not that hard to narrow down, and I kind of want to publicly shame them for it. Um, but, uh, it was Ernst and Young. It was Ernst and Young. Now I'm not. I'm. I'm kind. Part of me is not singling them out. Part of me [00:07:30] wants them to to have all sorts of, you know, fingers pointed at them. But part of me is like, no, this this actually could have been any of the four. Yes. If you think about it, this could have been any big firm. It could have even been not in the accounting world. This is, I think, this kind of thing I could imagine would happen in a lot of big companies.
Questian Telka: I'm sure that it does. So I think that's that's the bigger point and issue, right? Is this is likely not the only place that this took place. It's just the one that made it into the news cycle. [00:08:00] Right. So one of the things that was in this seminar that I found interesting was and this again, 2018 told women not to flaunt their bodies because sexuality scrambles the brain.
Nancy McClelland: Really? Sexuality.
Questian Telka: Right.
Nancy McClelland: Scrambles. Okay. All right.
Questian Telka: Which goes back to like when I was I don't know if you had the same experience, but when I was in middle school, [00:08:30] I would say is probably when it mostly started, probably elementary school too, because I was, you know, I've always pushed boundaries on attire. Um, and, and any other form of my life. So. But I was told I couldn't wear spaghetti strap tank tops to school because it would be too distracting for the boys. And so I had to. Yeah, yeah. Did you have any experiences like that when you were in school?
Nancy McClelland: Um, you know, I went to a pretty fabulous, [00:09:00] um, elementary and middle school. Uh, that definitely did not have. I would say that, um, they were pretty awesome from one gender to another, not giving us, like, different rules. It was really hard for me when I moved to a bigger city and started going to public school, and, um, was teased for what I was wearing. Um, and I don't know if that was because I [00:09:30] was poor or if I was a girl, or if I was a nerd or whatever, but, um, I, I, I don't think I had the same experiences that you did. I think one thing I got teased about was that I did develop a little bit earlier than some girls, but I wasn't wearing a bra yet. And so, um, we didn't have a lot of I was wearing boys t shirts because they were affordable, you know, just like white undershirts, but without a bra. And so I did get teased [00:10:00] for that when I was younger. I don't know, maybe that was sexuality scrambling the mind. Maybe it just looked weird. I have no idea. I was, you know, in sixth grade.
Questian Telka: Yeah. So you're like, not even. Yeah. You're so young. You're like, that isn't even on your mind, right?
Nancy McClelland: No, no. Definitely not.
Questian Telka: Um, and then some of the advice that was given was to be polished, to have a good haircut, manicured nails. Again, we mentioned, like, not flaunting the body or, you know, showing too [00:10:30] much skin. But then we get into things that are not necessarily all dress. I think one of the things that they talk about is how women speak. Right.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. Women ramble. Apparently. Um, which, uh, I would say I know plenty of men who ramble, too, so I can't say that this isn't true of women, but I also can't say that it isn't true of men. Um, [00:11:00] one attendee in this article were was was sharing with the people who were writing this article that women were told to quote, this is a direct quote, speak briefly because they often ramble and miss the point. Um, which I find stunning, I find absolutely stunning because I don't I do, you know, it is shown that women tend to be verbal processors, and so maybe that's the point that they were [00:11:30] trying to get at here. Um, in general. And this is absolutely not 100% across genders, but it is more common for women to be verbal processors, and in previous episodes of the podcast, we've talked about the fact that that's one of the reasons that they're so perfectly suited for large language models in AI use, is that we do tend to process verbally. Maybe that's what they were talking about here is saying, um, don't process verbally [00:12:00] so much, think about it and then speak, because that way people will more easily be able to focus on your takeaway. Like I wonder if they could have if they actually had a good point and could have said it differently, because speaking briefly, because they often ramble and miss the point is, is a completely insulting thing to say, and also very much not gender specific to women. I know a lot of men who ramble, uh, some of them to cover up the fact that they don't actually know something.
Questian Telka: Yeah, [00:12:30] right. I think that happens a lot. One of the the ones that really caught my attention is it said, not to directly confront male colleagues in meetings and not to sit directly across from them because it might make them feel threatened. And instead.
Nancy McClelland: I'm just going to be a jerk here and be like, uh oh, I.
Nancy McClelland: Don't want to threaten my male colleagues. That would be awful. I mean, are you kidding me? With the threatening attitudes [00:13:00] that.
Nancy McClelland: Women are dealing with all the time, I'm supposed to check myself. Also, if they are colleagues of mine, I don't think that we should be talking about whether we're threatening each other. Like, maybe we should just have open and honest communication, and then nobody needs to feel threatened because we've created safe spaces.
Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. I, I just I see that and I'm like, well, if that if that was something that was required, then [00:13:30] I would be fired immediately. I'm not going to last very long.
Nancy McClelland: Well, you know, this goes along with stuff we've talked about in prior episodes about shifting responsibility from the person who's who's doing the thing. Right. You know, the, the the viewer shifting responsibility from the viewer to the viewed or in this case, shifting the responsibility from the person who might have concerns to the [00:14:00] person who might make them feel threatened. Um, I know in this particular situation they were saying instead talk before or after the meeting, instead of sitting directly across from them and directly confronting them in a meeting. And I think that when we create safe spaces where all all viewpoints are welcome and encouraged because we're stronger together, that, you know, nobody's going to feel threatened and we don't have to just talk before or after the meeting. [00:14:30] We can have direct conversations. Conversations with each other that don't feel confrontational. So yeah, I don't know. I find all of this disturbing. The shifting responsibility, the the concept of confrontation and threatening the the rambling. I mean, it's it's it's very disturbing. And I feel like it's saying that men are [00:15:00] that somehow women are responsible for how men feel about the way that they're dressing. Right. Yes. For the men listening, you're not responsible for how women dress. You're responsible for your behavior and your professionalism. I don't think women should be editing themselves around what we think your reaction might be. And you can be an ally simply by refusing to participate in that narrative.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Um, [00:15:30] I'm going to add that I can't go into detail, but I got back to me that recently. There was at a recent conference, there were a group of men standing around discussing the clothing choice of one of, um, our female colleagues and saying things that were, you know, not entirely appropriate. And she was not inappropriately dressed. She was fully covered. So I won't go into detail.
Nancy McClelland: Talk about more later on about well, what does [00:16:00] that mean?
Questian Telka: What does that mean?
Nancy McClelland: Where's that line?
Questian Telka: But but I don't think anyone would have, would have really taken maybe what it maybe I don't. I think the majority of people wouldn't have seen her attire as inappropriate. But I think what I found disturbing was the standing around discussing, you know, a the, the woman and her attire and her body. And, um, just to go back to what you're saying. It's [00:16:30] a responsibility to behave and be professional, regardless of what she was doing or how she was dressing. It's like, don't engage in those conversations.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know what I'm going to add that goes for women as well. I just.
Questian Telka: Absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: Us, us talking about how somebody else is dressed in a way that is disparaging. If you're not willing to talk to the person directly, for example, if there's actually a problem, like if something in a particular situation. So I'll give [00:17:00] a good example of where these kinds of conversations can happen constructively. I was working on a client project that turned out to be in the middle of a rail yard, and I was walking. I was taking public transportation. So I was walking across this rail yard in a business suit with a skirt and high heels. It was inappropriate because in that context, I'm literally climbing over these rails in the middle of the yard, and they're like [00:17:30] big pieces of machinery and stuff like that, like it's that is a safety issue. So there's a really good example where somebody was like, hey, this is this is not like, I understand this is your first day and everything. You probably didn't realize the context you're getting into, but can you wear closed toed shoes and long pants. Right. Moving forward. Right. So there's a great example of where you can actually have these conversations out loud in a constructive way. If it's not that kind of situation, then like if you can't say something nice, [00:18:00] don't say anything at all.
Questian Telka: Don't say it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, yeah. So we were curious to see how much things have changed since then. Um, so we did a little bit of research and in was it 2021 I think question.
Questian Telka: Um.
Nancy McClelland: There was a, there was a new Jersey civil rights investigation.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: 2021 Okay, so Ernst and Young agreed to pay a $100,000 [00:18:30] fine and create a half million dollar scholarship fund for women and underrepresented minorities and audit and reform their training programs. And so that's a really good sign, right? They they acknowledged this is not cool.
Questian Telka: They acknowledged it.
Nancy McClelland: But then there was an independent review done two years later that showed things actually hadn't improved much. Um, and then there was that recent article from just last year in Fast Company. Do you want [00:19:00] to talk about that one?
Questian Telka: Um, I think that article that you're referencing, um, looked into a concept of how people are, you know, judged in the workplace based on their appearance. So not only do women perceived as unattractive potentially encounter workplace disadvantages, but attractive women do as well. And so women are just criticized for their appearance no matter what they look like.
Nancy McClelland: Um, damned if.
Questian Telka: You do. [00:19:30]
Nancy McClelland: Damned if you don't. Yeah.
Questian Telka: This impossible, um, tightrope of looking good, but not too good at work. And it's like those things that, like, have you ever seen the, like, reels on Instagram? And it's like, you know, you, um, like, don't be too much, but don't be too little. And it's like all of these, you know, contrary traits and like all of this pressure that women feel all the time to like, you know, do all do everything for your kids, but don't do too much for [00:20:00] your kids. And it's like the same thing, right? It's like.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, we've gotta we've gotta completely like, ruminate on this, um, concept of lookism. That's what the that's what the cool kids are calling it these days. Lookism how people are judged in the workplace on their appearance. Um, and that talk about distracting. I mean, I'm a lot less distracted by whether somebody is dressed inappropriately or not. And a lot more distracted about constantly having to navigate this. [00:20:30] Don't be too much, but make sure you're at least this much. You know, like that. What's what's that perfect Goldilocks place? Where? Where dressing. So that we're dressed for success. You dress for the role. You know that one? Dress for the role you want. Yeah. That you're in.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Dress for.
Nancy McClelland: The.
Questian Telka: Hilarious. Not for the job you have. That's what they.
Nancy McClelland: Say. Yes.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And then the the joke follow up to that one is. So that's why now I'm sitting in a discipline, um, meeting [00:21:00] dressed like Wonder Woman.
Questian Telka: That's hilarious. Well, and I was gonna say when you were bringing that up, I'm just like, you know, like, I stopped, and we've. We've talked about this before, like, I've stopped worrying about it, and I just embrace how I want to dress. And I'm like, some people will like me for it. Some people will not like me for it and you know if it is appropriate. Not appropriate. Like maybe that's not the space I'm meant to be in. If it's if. And I. And you can't [00:21:30] please everybody. Right. And it's absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: True. And and you know, for our listeners, just so you don't think we've got this all figured out, um, I have had to not had to I chose to share with question that more than once people have come to me talking about the way that question dresses, saying, oh, well, you know, if she didn't dress this way or she didn't dress that way, or what about that one thing? And I'm like, look, y'all question's [00:22:00] going to be questioned. There's a reason she works for herself, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: She doesn't have to follow other people's rules. And, you know, I, I dress very differently than you, but I also dress to reflect my own personality. I hope that the way that I dress, if somebody sees how I dress, that it will tell them something about who I am. I'm colorful. I'm, um, you know, not not your, quote unquote, not your typical accountant. Although you and I have talked many [00:22:30] times about the fact that neither.
Questian Telka: Of us are.
Nancy McClelland: I don't think I don't think there is such thing as a typical, typical accountant. I think that's an outdated concept. Um, so let's so let's talk about how this message still shows up in accounting and how it affects women professionally.
Questian Telka: Um, I, you know, I think it's pretty clear that they, that dress codes disproportionately target women. And [00:23:00] a lot of vague words are used to describe things like, uh, is it appropriate? Well, I mean, you know, obviously I think what I am wearing is appropriate. It's appropriate to me or I wouldn't be wearing it.
Nancy McClelland: I don't know, question that goes, that blouse is showing your shoulder. I find your shoulder. Your shoulder is very distracting to me.
Questian Telka: Do you want me to pull down the other one, too? Uh, for those that can't see, I have a, um, a sweater on [00:23:30] that has my. It's like a one shoulder shirt that kind of comes down on on the left side. And so I was making a joke that I could just, you know, do it on the other side, too.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, right. Absolutely. So, yeah. That's distracting. Then there's an appropriate or inappropriate professional. Not professional. We don't know what these words mean. It it doesn't make sense. Um, you know, does it mean we're not allowed to be attractive? Like, there. Was that our friend Erica? Good. She, um, posted [00:24:00] not that long ago on LinkedIn about. It wasn't specifically about attire, but it was a man commenting on her appearance. He made a comment that said, uh, blessed are the ones like Erica, who remind us all that accountants can be attractive too.
Questian Telka: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: And bravo to her for that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, well, bravo to her for, like, posting it and like, calling it out. And it was like.
Nancy McClelland: Tagging us.
Questian Telka: And tagging.
Nancy McClelland: Us and saying, we need to [00:24:30] talk about this on she counts and I'm thrilled. Fodder for the podcast. Um, yeah. But it it was interesting because a lot of people who responded to that were like, oh, just take it as a compliment. And she's like, look, I'm not, I'm not not taking it as a compliment. But I am trying to highlight that this is entirely beside the point for what I'm talking about. Like, this shouldn't be an issue. This shouldn't even be a topic here. And nobody would ever say that [00:25:00] to a man. Nobody would ever say that.
Questian Telka: And also I, I, I just find it. I would be a little I would be offended if somebody told me that it was that I was saying, here's this thing that bothered me. And they were like, well, just take it as a compliment. And it's like, I understand where they were, what they were aiming at. You know, it's like you don't need to spend, don't spend too much time worrying about it or thinking about it. But she was trying to highlight something that, you know, it's still somewhat pervasive. And so absolutely. And it obviously [00:25:30] it out.
Nancy McClelland: And they were really and they were really dismissive of the fact that this was something that she was like, hey, we need to highlight this. And it's like they're saying, oh, your feelings don't matter. Or you know, your your too much, you feel too much, you're reacting too big. Just make this go away. And I felt like it was minimizing the point that she was trying to make, which is which is don't do this. Yeah. Don't do this. There's no room for this. There's no room for this. And and [00:26:00] we don't need to make space for it. Um, there were it. Also, I do want to make sure so that we're not, um, blowing things out of proportion here. There were more people who were supportive of her in their responses.
Questian Telka: Oh, absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: Who were doing that? So I don't want to pretend like it was all that, but there were enough of them that, you know, you when you reflect on the accounting world and how historically conservative it is, the responses were in line with that. Some of the responses were in line with that. It's it's [00:26:30] not gone away, which kind of echoes, uh, you know, we're sort of both visually buttoned up and and emotionally buttoned up as well.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Yeah. So everyone thinks. Right. Um, you know, and that's, that's, that's been the perception and that's been the perception, not just in accounting, like as when I was growing up. I mean, I've always considered myself a girly girl or feminine by the [00:27:00] standards that they're describing, like the what's the word I'm looking for, you know what I'm saying? Like.
Nancy McClelland: You mean like by your, uh, societal perceptions of correct when you were younger. Like the.
Questian Telka: Way that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, my mom and I remember my mom saying to me, you know, unfortunately, because I've been, you know, a potentially not pushing my own clothing boundaries, but possibly other people's my entire life. And, um, she said to me, you know, in a man's world that [00:27:30] you have to learn to cover your body and cut my hair and make myself blend in with male colleagues, like, think pantsuits and not not the colorful, fun kind, potentially. And so in order to, like, get ahead and and to a degree like that's what I have seen take place often and. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's unfortunate because it would be nice if we were able to embrace our embrace ourselves and [00:28:00] our for, for my for me, being able to wear what I want to wear is not about anyone else. It's not about anyone else and their perception of me. It's about when I am going and I am doing this thing. I found this beautiful piece of clothing that I love, which is an outlet for me, and it makes me feel confident and it makes me feel. You know, it makes me feel good. And I don't know how you can like fault people for that.
Nancy McClelland: So absolutely. [00:28:30] Although, you know, it's so funny. I know I've told this to you before. It still feels weird when I say it out loud. You tend to think of me as a pretty colorful person in the way that I dress, right? Yeah. Um, but for years and years and years. So when I was growing up, my mom, she's from Argentina. They have a different set of, um, concepts about what's acceptable and not acceptable. And, um, she always taught me to be very body positive. And so I did wear things that, [00:29:00] you know, like when I was in college that my now husband's family thought was inappropriate and showed off too much. And, um, I was like, fight the power, I'm going to be me. And as I got older and I got into the work world, I became really, really self-conscious about that. And so I, I actually saw myself, over time, change my style to become very, very muted. I didn't want to stand out. I wore mostly, [00:29:30] um, you know, black and gray and brown and white and, you know, which are beautiful colors. But I didn't wear anything else. And a girlfriend of mine said to me after, gosh, easily a decade of having dressed like this, she said, you're one of the most colorful personalities that I know, and your exterior doesn't match your interior. And so she gave me a very colorful necklace, which I [00:30:00] don't even have anymore because it's not colorful enough or statement enough or big enough for me now.
Nancy McClelland: But I will always remember Heidi giving me this necklace, saying, here's, you know, love for you to just try this out and you can still wear the stuff that makes you comfortable, but just, just try. Because I used to wear the same earrings and and necklace every day and they were very, very understated. And, um, so she gave it to me and I was so scared the first time I wore that necklace, because I was like, oh, everybody's gonna notice me. And I wanted to be noticed for my [00:30:30] accomplishments. I was often, you know, as outsourced CFO services. So I was often in boardrooms or talking with the C-suite folks and telling them, here is how you need to do it. And I wanted them to take me seriously. And, you know, this double bind that we're in, you dress too feminine. You're not serious. You dress too masculine. You're not approachable. You dress trendy, you're unprofessional, you dress basic. You're not leadership material. And I was just like. And that one gesture [00:31:00] of my friend giving me this very colorful, um. This colorful necklace really changed everything for me because it shifted me to trying to align who I am inside with how people perceive me from the outside.
Questian Telka: And I would say that you have fully done that. And my question to you is like, how does that how does that make you feel that you're able to embrace that? How does it make you feel when you show up? And you can because you are colorful [00:31:30] and exuberant and, you know, I mean the opposite of boring. Well, it's all true. I mean, like, how does that change how you feel in your, like, in your professional environment and your in your day to day in your life? The fact that you're able to embrace all of that.
Nancy McClelland: You know, I do. I'm so glad you asked that because it is still it's a practice. It's a muscle that I have to exercise. Sometimes I [00:32:00] think something will be too colorful, or I'll think that something will be too understated. I actually, I was at a conference last week and, um, was worried that when I wore my, like, black and gray sweater dress that, uh, people were going to be like, oh, what's up, Nancy? You know, how come you're not colorful today? Like, I actually thought about it in the opposite way. And each time that I start self-doubting, I take a deep breath and [00:32:30] I say, what's going to make you feel the most like you today? And when I feel like myself, when I feel like my I don't know, my innards and my outer sides are aligned with each other, um, then that's when I can stop thinking about what I'm wearing and focus the most on the information I'm delivering or the message or, um, you know, the the person that I'm talking to and focus on them [00:33:00] and listening to them and and then it's not about me.
Questian Telka: And this brings up a really good point, which is this theory called the object objectification theory. And this is Fredrickson and Roberts work. And that shows that when women are constantly monitoring how they look, it creates what we call self-objectification. And a 2020 review of that research found that this is basically [00:33:30] constant body monitoring that actually reduces your cognitive performance. So like you were at this conference and you're so focused on, you know, am I, am I too much, am I not enough like am I you know is everyone. Yeah that that that totally.
Nancy McClelland: Is what I'm talking about. I forgot that it had a name. Yes. That is that is totally what I'm talking about. When I can take a deep breath and and wear what makes me feel the most comfortable in my own skin. [00:34:00] My innards and my outwards lined up with each other. Then I stop with that constant self-objectification. I stop with the constant body monitoring. And so it actually improves my cognitive performance, because my brain is now focused on doing the work instead of being busy watching itself.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah. And you know, how often to, you know, that being said, how often [00:34:30] do you think about your clothing choices in a way that you that our male peers simply just. Oh, gosh.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Any woman listening to this is laughing right now. Yeah. Men, men don't think about their clothing choices in the same way. For better or for worse. Um, I have one colleague in particular. I'm not gonna I'm not going to call him out on this one. But he he was also at this conference last [00:35:00] week and we were laughing about the fact because he travels a ton and I'm like, oh my gosh, when I, when I unpack when I get home and then repack for the next conference. Um, you know, I'm, I'm thinking, well, have I already worn that dress at a conference this year? Will it be in the pictures the same way? You know, and I try to get all that thinking out of the way before I pack so that once I'm there, I don't have to think about it at all. And I just feel like I'm comfortable in my own skin. And he was like, well, I wear the same polo shirt and sweatshirt [00:35:30] all the time, so it doesn't matter. And I had, I had, I suppose.
Questian Telka: I suppose we could do the same thing, but then we would be judged for that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah.
Questian Telka: Pretty, pretty severely probably.
Nancy McClelland: You know, part of it is that we'd be judged for it. And part of it, to be fair, is that I wouldn't feel like me if I were wearing a polo.
Questian Telka: Shirt or.
Nancy McClelland: A sweatshirt. And there are, however, women who are listening, who I hope do feel most comfortable [00:36:00] in that clothing. And I want to ask, is that does those vague words we were using before, you know, um, uh, appropriate or inappropriate professional? Are those things less appropriate for women than men? Are those things less appropriate, you know, less professional for women than for men? And if the answers that we're giving, uh, for a situation like that are. Yes, then there's a problem with the dress code and our perceptions. Not a problem with the way women [00:36:30] are dressing.
Questian Telka: Right? Right.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And women, we're already overstretched. It is as it is. Like adding is this outfit going to offend someone is completely freaking ridiculous question.
Questian Telka: I know, I know, and yet we think about it. And when it happens to me, as I said, I'm like, I think about it. And then I'm like, I feel comfortable. I think it's appropriate. And so I wear it. And sometimes others think it is, and sometimes they think it's not. And, you know, it kind of it it is what it is. And [00:37:00] the, um, the only time I've gotten in trouble really, was when I was in elementary school and I, or middle school, and I wore the skirt, the spaghetti strap, tank top anyway, because I was defiant and I was like, I'm gonna see if I can get away with this. And also like we talked about this pantyhose. Right?
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Oh my gosh, don't even I never wore pantyhose. So wait, was it required because okay, one of the things that is unfair in this conversation [00:37:30] for us to be having it, um, is that you and I both run our own firms at this point. That was not the case in the past, right? And a lot of women listening are not running their own firms. So for us to be able to say, I'm doing this and I feel comfortable and it just I just have to feel like me and all of that stuff, It's it's a little unfair to be saying those things. That's true for women who can't write. So McKinsey had a women in the workplace report in 2023. And, [00:38:00] um, also, catalyst has done a lot of work on what they call an emotional tax. And both of these, the, the reports, um, the McKinsey report and catalysts work showed that women and especially women of color, they are carrying this emotional tax. It's this constant vigilance at work, and they're scanning for bias and managing other people's reactions and worrying about how they're perceived. Again, that's all energy you can't use for [00:38:30] the actual job. You are not at your cognitive best because you've got this load, this decision fatigue and this fear of judgment and less energy for actual leadership. Yeah. So when you talk about when you talk about, um, the requirement to wear pantyhose. I'm looking at this in two different ways. Number one, pantyhose is. I don't even understand why it was.
Questian Telka: I'm not.
Nancy McClelland: Really.
Questian Telka: Sure either. Like, what are these things? Like, why did anyone uncomfortable [00:39:00] ever.
Nancy McClelland: Like, I don't know why my bare legs are gonna be distracting to someone. Like, I it's maybe it was some way to replace pants. I don't know, there's a whole research project in there somewhere. Um, I worked at a place, so I was their outsourced CFO person, and I didn't have to follow the dress code. But there was a dress code, and it required pantyhose. And so, you know, people would comment to me and I'd be like, well, I'm a contractor. What are they gonna do about [00:39:30] it? You know? Um, while other women had to wear pantyhose and so on, the one.
Questian Telka: Just didn't like me.
Nancy McClelland: No, you would you would get a disciplinary meeting. If you didn't wear pantyhose at this place, you absolutely would. And it was a smaller company as well. It well. It was not a large company, but you absolutely would get called in. Um, and if you did that multiple times, you're like, your job was seriously in jeopardy. I am.
Questian Telka: Not.
Nancy McClelland: Yes, I am being completely.
Questian Telka: Isn't it crazy at this point to think back to that? That was [00:40:00] actually a thing. Like, I remember my mom telling me that she wasn't allowed to wear denim to school. Only boys could. So she had to wear a skirt. Like no jeans or slacks. Like dress pants.
Nancy McClelland: Well, I guarantee you, there are still. We're not just looking back on this. I guarantee you that there are still dress codes that require pantyhose. I'm absolutely sure somewhere out there, somebody got a dress code.
Questian Telka: I'm not telling anybody. I'm not telling anybody to not do it. But I again, shocking that I pushed the boundaries. But I was at a big four and this wasn't [00:40:30] that long ago. This was like 15 years ago. And pantyhose were in the dress code and I never wore them.
Nancy McClelland: And you never got called out for it.
Questian Telka: I never got in trouble for it.
Nancy McClelland: That's fascinating. That's absolutely fascinating. So the other side of that, that I will say is that when there is a dress code that's specific about cans and cans. As long as that policy is determined in conversation with employees and with [00:41:00] attention to challenges of gender disparity, religion, ethnicity, race, culture. Absolutely. As long as those things are done in a way that is open communication where people are allowed to participate, I kind of like the here's what's allowed in the dress code, and here isn't what's allowed in the dress code, or here's what, here's what the expectations are, because then it reduces a little bit of that emotional tax. Because one [00:41:30] of the reasons that, like a lot of schools will have a uniform is that you don't have to think about what you're going to wear when you wake up. You don't have to think about, Um, whether you're transferring the, you know, emotional tax onto someone else for your their perception of what you're wearing and all of this energy that you can't use for your actual job, which in that case is education, right. Learning. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Well, don't you think that when they're writing [00:42:00] these policies, they should also be like not writing them with genders in mind, like they should? In my mind, I'm thinking like this. These policies should be written that kind of like, ah, across the board. It's like it shouldn't be like, well, women can wear this, but and men can wear, you know, or can't wear this rather. Um, what do you think?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, that's a really good that's a hard one, right. Because you got stereotypes. You never want to confirm a negative stereotype. And [00:42:30] you, you know, that's it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And there are professional implications there. You know, um, when you don't bring gender into it at all, it's a lot easier to wonder if you're looking too formal, too casual, too curvy, too colorful to everything, right? Like when when you create these policies and they don't have anything to do with gender? Um, I don't know. You know, we're [00:43:00] going to draw lines. We're human beings. We're going to we're going to notice a woman's shoulder to go back to the shirt that you're wearing right now. Right. And so while I appreciate the concept.
Questian Telka: I might have been intentional in my choice today.
Nancy McClelland: I love you so much. I mean, I guess what I would love is I would love policies that make it possible for people to express themselves, whether they're women [00:43:30] or men in their clothing, their tattoos, their hair color, whatever it is, and to redefine professionalism to be around behavior and not appearance. However, I think that pretending that we can do this without any reference to gender is potentially setting ourselves up for failure. I think we need to at least acknowledge that it is a perception that people have, and then try to create again [00:44:00] in a not leaders making these decisions and pushing them down on the masses, but rather open conversations where we truly collaborate, we create a safe space for communication, and we talk about gender differences, and we talk about how to write policies that don't lean on those. Yeah, [00:44:30] but I think pretending that gender is never gender or lack of gender, like gender neutral or, um, you know, there there are obviously are trying.
Questian Telka: To.
Nancy McClelland: Like as well.
Questian Telka: To shift that a little bit too. It's like there has to be a boundary somewhere, right? And I think we acknowledge that. Right. Like there's Nancy and I aren't the one making them up. Right. Like you. And I don't know the answer, as we've said before, like we're just having [00:45:00] the conversation because it's like something that comes up and it comes up a lot.
Nancy McClelland: And and you know what would make me really proud? Question is if this conversation that you and I are having right now, where we say we don't know where the line should be drawn. This is a conversation that needs to happen in each workplace. What if this podcast were the catalyst for those conversations happening? And I would.
Questian Telka: Love for like if we have listeners for them to write in, like, hey, our firm has figured it out here's like this great way that we have written up or [00:45:30] come up with like really incredible ways for people to. So in our workplace to embrace, you know, people's um, expression, their cultures, their ethnicities, their again, self-expression and also to like, make sure that we're showing up for our clients in a way that, you know, is it falls in line with the values of the firm, right?
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. Yes, I love that. I love reframing because that's that's reframing. Um, what professionalism in [00:46:00] accounting looks like, because you take your firm's values and you say everything needs to be in line with these values, including our dress code, you know, the expectations, because then we're making it possible for not just women, but for men as well, for for people to express themselves in a way that reflects who they are. It embodies the values of their culture, and it focuses on [00:46:30] behavior and not appearance. And I'll tell you, when I started running my own firm, I showed up to every client meeting in a suit. Um, I had some really beautiful suits. I want to see pictures. You would never believe the way I used to dress. I think that you would be surprised. Knowing. Knowing who I am now. Um, usually a black suit. I had some great ones, too. And, um, when I did that, you know what I found out? [00:47:00] My clients. I run a hyper local firm in my neighborhood in Logan Square, which is a quirky, scrappy.
Questian Telka: That's such a great neighborhood.
Nancy McClelland: Weird. It is such a great neighborhood. I'm so glad you've gotten to experience it. Um, my clients didn't like it. They didn't trust me. I was an outsider. I was not a because it said because you don't fit.
Questian Telka: With them with their like, yeah, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: It said professional in a different way. It said professional in an office. It didn't say professional. You [00:47:30] get me? It did not say you get me. And so I. I think that your concept when you talk about starting with a culture reset, you know, how would you redefine what professionalism would be about? I know you, like, have a well.
Questian Telka: It should be, you know, not about our attire and our wardrobe and micromanaging it. I think it's more about, you know, should [00:48:00] be built around respect and results and not competence. Competence. That's right.
Nancy McClelland: Reliability.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: How you treat other people, you know, like that's ethics.
Questian Telka: I mean, the work that you do just like results again you know.
Nancy McClelland: Whereas professionalism when we use those really vague words like appropriate and distracting and professional that often [00:48:30] is coding like male and white. Unless, of course, you're Will Ferrell on SNL. Do you know that skit where he shows up in a thong?
Questian Telka: Oh my God. I don't I don't know if I've seen it. That's okay.
Nancy McClelland: I'm gonna put that one in the show notes because you need to see that one. Yeah. It was, um, it was like a, uh, Show Your Pride in America Day or something like that. And so everybody's wearing, like, you know, go USA kind of clothing. And he shows up in a red, white and blue thong and nothing else.
Questian Telka: So nothing [00:49:00] else.
Nancy McClelland: That's not what we're talking about. When we say male in white, we don't mean that. I mean real professionalism shouldn't, you know, it shouldn't have anything to do with what color your blazer is or whatever. So.
Questian Telka: And I think that, like, if we're looking at our male counterparts to show up for us. Right. Um, back to like, the conversation that I was telling you that happened at that conference recently is that, you [00:49:30] know, when when commentary shifts on a woman's appearance or to a woman's appearance, like redirection is really what we're looking for, right? It doesn't have to be dramatic, but you can simply say, hey, let's stay focused on her work. Or, you know, she's an excellent leader and like, redirect back to something else that is not commenting on on her, I love that. It's like when it.
Nancy McClelland: Goes back to she was standing there that we were talking and it's like before. [00:50:00]
Questian Telka: If this woman was standing there and she heard the conversation that you were having, you know, would it be a would it be a conversation you would be proud of?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Which goes back to the the question of ethics. Yeah. I think if if so, if somebody is listening male or female. And this is an issue at your firm. The simplest fix I think, is to shift every dress code conversation from appearance [00:50:30] to function. What does the work require? Are there safety needs? Are there client expectations? So using the example that I just gave, if you show up at a client's in a railroad yard, don't wear open toed high heels. Right.
Questian Telka: You don't think I should wear my open toed conference sandals that I wear everywhere?
Nancy McClelland: I think that that would go against client expectations. Or in my situation here, like, don't show up in a suit at [00:51:00] a cool, quirky place that, like, makes their own clothing. You know what I mean? Like, that's. Yeah. You know, so client expectations I do think are an important part of the job kind of in both directions, conservatively and more.
Questian Telka: So I want to ask a question and we haven't we haven't talked about this before, but I like and I'm not sure I have an answer to it, but I'm curious what you think. If we have somebody who feels like they don't know what the best way to [00:51:30] dress is like, what are you. What's your suggestion? Do they ask? Like they find a mentor and, you know, ask them to help them, do they? You know what? I'm you know, I kind of just threw this at you, but.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. No, I love that question. I, I mean, I, I, as is always the case when we're in um, when we're talking about tax, the answer is it depends. Um, uh, all things accounting. Yes. All things accounting. Um, so I do think it depends on what kind of environment [00:52:00] you're in. If you're in a large firm where you have like assigned mentors, you have assigned, uh, supervisors, you have an HR department, things like that. Uh, especially if you have a mentorship program. It does make sense. And you got to be a little bit careful with this, but it does make sense to say I don't feel like I have guidance about what's appropriate here. Um, and you can even offer to help [00:52:30] with the conversation if there's more than one person who's confused about it. Again, you know, shift these conversations from appearance to function and, and say, what is the work require? Are there safety needs? Are there client expectations? How do we define what basic professionalism for everyone looks? Because when you reframe it that way, it the policing disappears and the standard becomes fair by design. And you can be a part of making that happen. So you do have to be a little careful with it, because, you [00:53:00] know, that article that we led with on the Ernst and Young, uh, thing that was actually a training that was requested by employees. And then it turned into this really, really, really damaging experience for almost everyone involved. So, um, and then when I say it depends, I also mean if you're in a smaller firm, it's harder to know who to ask for. You know [00:53:30] what the policy is, right? Um, because you're like, do I just ask the head of the firm who may never have thought about it before? Yeah. Um, and so, I suppose make a difference there, right?
Questian Telka: Right. I suppose if you're in a bigger firm, like, they probably make it more clear who to ask if it's a smaller firm, like just make it make it clear when you're in your policies, when you are hiring. Hope you hopefully you do have policies. Um, who to who to ask questions like that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. To in our [00:54:00] firm we have never set a policy because um, our clients, they show up, however, they're going to show up on a zoom and I want us to show up. However, we're going to show up. And I trust my employees to make choices that feel comfortable to them. That might not be the best approach. Especially, you know, I mentioned the place where I was, they had the pantyhose rule, but I was a contractor so I could get around it. I understood why they had some of the rules they had because, yeah, [00:54:30] every once in a while there would be a meeting where a woman was wearing a skirt that was so short, and the way that she sat meant that it. Yeah, it there's like.
Questian Telka: You said, there's.
Nancy McClelland: Like, they have to have.
Questian Telka: There has to be a line somewhere. Right? We have to. But I don't think.
Nancy McClelland: That line has to be the same in every firm. I don't think that has to be the same for every role. If you're not doing client work, for example, why are you making like [00:55:00] why are you making people in that role dress the way that people who are doing client work have to dress? That doesn't make sense. If you've got a remote person, you know, saying.
Questian Telka: Probably just to keep it consistent, right? So it's like, I understand I understand what you're saying, but I'm guessing especially in a larger firm, it's like, well, we have to say it across the board. We can't, you know, we can't say, well, one role can dress this way and another one, you know.
Nancy McClelland: And I'm going to make the argument that if you're trying to [00:55:30] attract the best talent in a younger generation, that might be an outdated approach and it might not. So it goes back to it depends it it I think the point that I want to come back to, I guess it's twofold. Number one, I think the solution is communication. I think that having employees participate in the conversation about what our dress code is going to be in this firm, whether it's a large firm, medium firm, [00:56:00] small firm, whether you're running your own firm, have a conversation. Create a safe space where people can put their $0.02 in and build something off of that. And secondly, it's the comment that you keep making. Professionalism should be built around respect and results.
Questian Telka: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been fun. I love this topic.
Nancy McClelland: So much fun.
Questian Telka: It has been fun.
Nancy McClelland: Before we close out, we are going [00:56:30] to give you a three question self test for women who are choosing clothing. Number one, can I move in it? Is it comfortable for moving around? Especially if you're at a conference, you are going to be on your feet a lot. You're going to be sitting a lot. You're going to be playing the Vatican rag up, down, up, down. Uh, so that's question number one. You want to take question number two.
Questian Telka: Will [00:57:00] I be thinking about what I'm wearing during the day.
Nancy McClelland: Because we want to reduce the cognitive load as much as.
Questian Telka: Possible. Well I'm thinking worrying about it, second guessing it or. Yeah, any of the other things. Is it basically uncomfortable. And so you're thinking about it.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah. Um, and number three, does it feel like me.
Questian Telka: And that's my favorite one.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Well, and you, you got, you came up with some really good additional [00:57:30] questions. So those are the three that I would ask everybody actually I would say men or women. Right. Like those. Can I, will I be distracted thinking about it during the day and does it feel like me? But I want you to go through your additional questions because I think that these are sort of, um, bonus extra points, homework that.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Well, and this is, this goes back to the one that you mentioned. Does it feel like me is what makes you feel confident? Like where within reason, you know, so that you are following, if you do have some [00:58:00] sort of dress code that you feel confident in what it is and how, how do you want to show up as a, as a leader? Right. And um, you know, for me, for better or worse, I want women to, um, embrace whatever it is that makes them feel like themselves and feel confident. And I'm in a position to do so. So that's that's the answer for myself. And then what environments make them feel [00:58:30] seen and safe and then, you know, allowing women and men to own their own narrative.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love those so much. So for firm owners, please involve your team members in this discussion and where possible, reframe professionalism and switch to a reasonable comfort plus client context policy. Have your team co-write it [00:59:00] and for the team members, if your outfit allows you to present clearly and collaborate and sit and stand for meetings. It's professional.
Questian Telka: It's right.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. If your firm still policing open toed shoes and pantyhose and it's 2025, let's just rethink some of these things. Send help. As we wrap up, we would love to ask listeners to follow [00:59:30] our She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode pancakes, Power Suits and Personal Autonomy. What is the most ridiculous dress code rule you've ever been given?
Questian Telka: This should be entertaining.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Questian Telka: And before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote by Yves Saint Laurent. And that is, over the years, I have learned that what is most important [01:00:00] in a dress is the woman who is wearing it. And I would just change the quote to attire.
Nancy McClelland: Is.
Questian Telka: Most important in your attire is the woman who is wearing it.
Nancy McClelland: I love that. Thank you so much for being here with us on She Counts, The Real Talk podcast for women in accounting.
Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing this.
Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen, heard and never alone.
Questian Telka: Remember again [01:00:30] that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the show notes.
Nancy McClelland: Please subscribe and leave us a review and please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Questian Telka: And we'll see you all again in two weeks.
Nancy McClelland: Thanks so much.
Questian Telka: Bye bye.