Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!
Questian Telka: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. We're your hosts, Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode, we're digging into the experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClelland: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, [00:00:30] and you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Questian Telka: A very special thanks to our season three sponsors, Bill, Relay and Carbon. We're so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone is thinking and no one is saying. You can learn more about them on our sponsors page at accounts dot show.
Nancy McClelland: And if you want to support the podcast, the one thing that would make the biggest impact is to leave a [00:01:00] review on your favorite podcast platform. Believe it or not, they really do help others find us.
Questian Telka: For CPE credit, you can go to earmark.app and you can follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn and join in on the conversation with us.
Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called Trashy Cassie or why you need an Alter Ego. Acting with authority before you feel ready. And we have a special guest with us, Miss Trashy herself, [00:01:30] Cassie Divine. Welcome to She counts. Cassie.
Questian Telka: Oh, thank you so much.
Cassie Divine: I'm voting for the. Why you need an alter ego. Uh, if I get a vote. So happy to be here.
Questian Telka: Some of our listeners may know Cassie from nearly two decades at Intuit. She was a senior vice president leading QuickBooks for a long time.
Nancy McClelland: And famously did an amazing job interviewing Ryan Reynolds on stage at QB connect [00:02:00] while I was off trying to find the hot tub. She has since moved into. Yeah, I know. I still can't believe I missed it. I'm really excited about engage this year because I get another chance. She has since moved on into board and advisory work, working with FreshBooks and an AI startup.
Questian Telka: And she started Career Hack, a mentorship and content platform for women figuring out how to advance on their own terms. [00:02:30]
Nancy McClelland: We love launching each episode with a story. And Cassy, you've got one that was the inspiration for this whole episode.
Cassie Divine: Oh well, happy to share. And I'll tell you, I have a teenage daughter who's wrapping up middle school, and it has been an amazing experience for her. That was not my experience. And, you know, I think it started For a lot of people, right? Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Traumatic.
Cassie Divine: Yeah. Picture this. So [00:03:00] it's sixth grade. It's the, uh, mid 80s. I was already a foot taller than everybody. I got a lot of my height very early. I was a very pale kid growing up in sunny San Diego. One of my nicknames was Casper the Ghost. And I had a haircut that Dorothy Hamill, the gymnast, had made famous at the 85 Olympics, which was basically a bowl cut. And it looked great on her. It did not look so great on me, and I had [00:03:30] I was in the middle of like this orthodontics journey, and at the time I had something called a binder. It's like a retainer that clips into both sides of your mouth. Basically, you have to take it out if you want to talk or eat this like dental monstrosity. And one day, you know, you take it out to eat lunch. And I threw it away.
Nancy McClelland: And yeah, I knew like you left it because that one said, I left my. I left my retainers. Um uh. And the headgear. God, I hated that headgear [00:04:00] on my lunch tray. Is that what happened to you?
Cassie Divine: Exactly. It was on my lunch tray. I tossed it, and I knew it had been a big purchase. You know, I think at the time, it was like $150, which in my household might as well have been $1 million. And I called my mother and said I threw it away. And I was kind of hoping for a pass. And she said, you have to go find it. Oh, God. And I went back to I went back to the lunch and the janitor is like, bad news. Just tossed all the garbage. [00:04:30] Good news. It's a new dumpster. Oh. And I crawl. I had to climb into it with him, and I found my binder and it got sterilized and, you know, went to to continue to torment me. Um, my reputation was not sterilized. I can't remember how, but news got out that this had happened. And I don't know if you all remember cute Cabbage Patch Kids from the 80s. And then that trend turned into there was a parody of them called Garbage Pail Kids. And yeah. [00:05:00]
Nancy McClelland: I remember Garbage Pail Kids.
Cassie Divine: Yeah, yeah, they were gross. And they had these like gross pictures and slogans, and they were having a big pop culture moment at the time when I was in sixth grade and someone decided convenient timing, the worst, the worst, and someone decided to start calling me Trashy Cassie. And it stuck. And I remember thinking my life was going to end and asking my mother if I could never go to school again. Which, of course, is not a choice.
Nancy McClelland: You know what though? I'm [00:05:30] just going to I'm going to remember being in that grade. And I would say at the time that probably felt very logical. Like, clearly this is the only solution. I can never go back to school. Right. That seems completely reasonable to me. Yeah. I was also.
Cassie Divine: Willing to change schools, which my mother also didn't like.
Questian Telka: You know, what's funny is I did the same thing. Not not the same situation or scenario. But, you know, middle school was also a nightmare and, and could share some traumatic stories. And I very, you know, seriously went to my mom at [00:06:00] one point and said, can I just change schools? Like I, I'm happy to go anywhere else. I just don't want to go here anymore. And, but, you know, seem totally, totally reasonable to us right at the time.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, totally.
Cassie Divine: It's so, it's so hard. But, you know, you live through it and actually then start to encounter all kinds of other things that life throws at you that are a lot more serious. But at the time though, at the time. Yeah, the biggest 100%.
Nancy McClelland: Now you did, you did stay in that school. And [00:06:30] clearly you're here today. So you, you did survive that. I survived.
Cassie Divine: I survived to, you know, go through life's actual hard stuff. But, you know, 30 years later, I had that feeling again. Now I'm an executive. I'm leading an initiative with another group at the company. You know, tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. And the executive on the other side of the table is more senior than me and was really being tough. Um, he would [00:07:00] talk over me if I stood up for myself. There were a couple of times he called my boss and said I was being too aggressive, and it just.
Nancy McClelland: Was.
Cassie Divine: A terrible situation. Yeah. You know that, right?
Nancy McClelland: Yes.
Cassie Divine: Oh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Situations that double standard. You know, with a man, it's it's leadership and confidence. But with a woman it's aggressive. Yeah. Same.
Questian Telka: Yeah. Have we do we know a woman that hasn't probably had to manage something similar to that at some point. Right.
Cassie Divine: Yeah. I've never met one that hasn't had [00:07:30] to. You know, you, you, you learn that and I it not only was a bad for me, but it wasn't great for this team that I was the leader of. And I remember driving home on my commute and thinking through like, what are my choices? Do I, oh.
Nancy McClelland: My God, can I switch schools? Do I have can I go back schools?
Cassie Divine: And it's like the options are I need to say something to him. And the only other backup, since I can't switch schools, is I get my boss to say something, which also sounds like [00:08:00] not the right thing. I, you know, at the time I'm trying to show my boss, I can, I can take on big things. And I think because I was having that feeling that I didn't want to go to work, like I didn't want to go to the next meeting. I thought about trashy Cassie and I thought, you know, she can deal with this, like this idea that, you know, you think of all the tough stuff you've been through in your life. And I had this name for her, and I decided I [00:08:30] could be her for a minute and.
Questian Telka: To your rescue.
Cassie Divine: Text him and have the conversation to say, you can't treat me like this. You can't treat our team like this. I expect something different and you know, get out of it. And I realized at that moment, you don't have to become someone tougher. You remember that you already are her, and she's available for you to be in this moment. And it doesn't [00:09:00] have to be permanent. But I think that is true for all women. You know, you learn that there is something required of you sometimes that feels like it's not your natural you.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. Yeah.
Cassie Divine: But you have so many things that you've lived through that you can channel and, you know, maybe you don't give her a name. Um, but I think it's.
Nancy McClelland: I don't know, I love that I, when.
Questian Telka: You, I do too.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. When I first read your article on this [00:09:30] concept, it resonated so deeply because I was like, yeah, I don't want to be her all the time, but to be able to say, hey, girl, I need you Today. Like, what an amazing concept that you're not, you're not pretending. You're just accessing someone that already exists inside of you because you can find her from your past.
Questian Telka: We've all I know there are experiences. There are, um, I don't remember who it was, but there was someone [00:10:00] who, you know, when I was starting to speak publicly more and she actually shows up when she has to get on stage with an alter ego. And so through that conversation, I learned that there are a lot of people that actually do that, that like pull on this, you know, other part or side of themselves that isn't how they would naturally show up and create this alter ego, the stage ego, right? Or this stage persona in order to help them get through that, um, you [00:10:30] know, get through speaking publicly or something that is difficult or scary for them. So I love this concept.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And it actually reminds me question of when we had Misty Mejia on the show, uh, from theater public speaking, and she was talking about how frustrated she gets when people are like, oh, you just need to find confidence. You just need to be more confident or, you know, more assertive or more strategic or more whatever. [00:11:00] Right. Which implies that you're, you're not enough. You're currently, you're lacking something, right? So, Cassy, this is not that. This is not saying you're lacking it totally.
Cassie Divine: Well, I think you're already her. I think so much advice for women sort of tells us like, this is exactly what you're saying. It's like, become something else. And I think the reality [00:11:30] that, you know, women aren't lacking anything. Um, and, you know, you're not building someone something new or some new skill, you are channeling something that you already have had that you've used in a number of other scenarios, just not this one. And, you know, stepping into it temporarily to do what you need to do. And, you know, be, be the you that is needed in that moment.
Questian Telka: I love that because so much of the time we are, we're [00:12:00] getting both directions, right? You need your you need more, you need more. You're not enough. You're too much. You're too much. You know, you're over the top. You know, it's like, oh my gosh, it's so true.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And one of the things I really love about your approach to this, Cassy, is that it's intentional, right? It's not, it's not. I slip into this character accidentally as a defense mechanism, but rather I'm I'm calling on her. Right. An intentional shift of stepping [00:12:30] into this alter ego, stepping into this power.
Cassie Divine: Yes, absolutely. I think it's it's intentional. And it's also because, you know, as you said, because it's this shift into something, I think it it eliminates this idea that I think we'll feel like we have to be so powerful, like this whole powerful being. And it's like, you don't need to be that. But there are times you do need [00:13:00] to step into that power, but it feels more accessible because then you can step out. It's like any hard thing you go through, even like lifting a weight, like you just have to bear it for that moment. And not all of then you can put it down. Exactly. Yeah. We know how to do that. We just have to, you know, decide to take that step. But for me, the idea of I don't need to be this certain person, it feels like I need to be [00:13:30] all the time. I can be me, but then I can, as you said, step into this power or authority or assertiveness, whatever it is for that moment that is needed. It's it's a really powerful concept, I think, and easier for us to do than deciding we need to, you know, change our personalities.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah. It's much more it's much more likely to be able to do that. You know, I think so much of it, the mindset is that I need to make this shift. I need to do this thing and become, you know, more step [00:14:00] in my power and authority. And you're thinking of it from the perspective of doing this all of the time in all of your, you know, aspects and areas of life. And that's just, um, you know, that's really difficult. And it's a shift in, in personality. Oftentimes it is too big of a lift, as you said. So, you know, taking the smaller lift and doing it in areas where and when you need it is so much more of a possibility for everyone, you know, and it's like, it's much more realistic, [00:14:30] right? That we can do this and accomplish it.
Nancy McClelland: Because you're not pretending you're you're not you're not acting. You're, you're finding this person who's already there and has already been through this, right? So it, it, it takes less energy and it makes you feel more authentic while you're doing it, which is going to make you feel it's going to make you sound more convincing 100%.
Cassie Divine: And I think that point that, you know, I think women, every woman I know [00:15:00] who is trying to build a business, build her career has a really strong center of, I want to be myself doing this. And so I think the accessing someone you've been is it's so true to you. I had a scenario where I needed to advocate for someone on my team that I felt like was not getting a fair shake. And I had a. It [00:15:30] just felt like it was going to be a really big battle. And I was thinking about the way to approach it. And I thought about being in like a hospital room and advocating for my daughter at one point where I was like, the toughest mom you would ever seen. And I thought, that's who I'm going to be in this conversation. I know how to do this, and it just feels more natural. But I think that authenticity holds. It's not fake. It's you. You're just channeling a version [00:16:00] of you for that time. And so it's easier to do.
Questian Telka: Yeah, that makes sense. And that, that really resonates with me because I've had to do the same thing when my son was in the hospital. And so it's like you, you call on this part inside of yourself that becomes, you know, it's like, uh, you know, I'm a typically pretty emotional person and I'm like, okay, I need to set my emotions aside. I'm advocating like, I need to speak doctor talk, and I've got to pull out, you know, I've got to, I have to be logical in this and, [00:16:30] you know, relay what, what what the needs are. And but that is not my my standard method of delivery, right. I tend to lead with emotion rather than logic sometimes. So, um, you know, calling on a side of myself that is very accessible, but also not what I would typically do because that is what it had to be done in the, in the moment.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. I feel like the real barrier there, I don't know, you tell me if this if this makes sense to, [00:17:00] to both of you, but it's not whether or not we're capable of doing that, but giving ourselves permission to do that. You know, we, we've talked so often on the podcast about likability, conditioning or fear of being too much. Right? And so, um, I just feel like, I feel like there's got to be a moment where we're asking ourselves, who do I need to be in this moment. Have I been here before? And am I allowed to bring her up? [00:17:30]
Cassie Divine: Yeah, I totally agree. Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I was going to say. I think, you know, like we said, women aren't lacking capability or intelligence or ambition or work ethic or any of these things. But I do think we are lacking permission because there's a lot of conditioning to be this certain piece, and this is permission to be all of you and unlock all of these different [00:18:00] strengths that you have that you've brought to bear likely in your whole life, but in certain situations. And I think, um, you know, it closes this gap of like, I'll just bring her to the table. It's not something new. And, you know, you unlock something that's there. That is the right thing for the moment. But I think permission is exactly, Exactly it.
Nancy McClelland: Question. I know you had something you wanted [00:18:30] to say about that, and I wanted to revisit it.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I was just going back to the intentionality. I think it's really important to keep remembering that. I mean, the the difficulty is if you aren't reframing your, your thought process and training your brain to be intentional in these ways, then you forget to probably do it or to call on it. I mean, I know I do, I'm just kind of thinking of situations where, you know, sometimes [00:19:00] it happens naturally that you kind of lean into a side of yourself that you've, you know, had past experience or past resilience. Um, pulling from, but it's a good reminder. This is a great conversation because it's a good reminder that that intentionally choosing to do it is something that you can always pull from. It doesn't have to naturally happen. And so when you have a difficult moment or you have something that you are struggling with, the first [00:19:30] thing you know, I'm, I'm imagining the first thing we should say to ourselves is like, and I'm wondering if this is what you do, Cassie is, you know, saying, okay, like, is this a moment when I need to kind of pull in this alter ego? Like, can I use her here? Um, and so I think that that being intentional, it really is an important point.
Nancy McClelland: That combination of, of giving yourself permission. So you got, you got [00:20:00] to do what you're saying first, you got to be intentional about it and be like, okay, I know she's there. I am going to be intentional about doing this. I'm going to give myself permission to, to find her and to emulate her. Um, but the practical application is like, you, you got to think back to a time you survived something difficult, right? Like you've got, you've got to find those moments. You got to do something where, yeah, you, you showed up anyway. You pushed through the discomfort. You came out the other side. The question and I talk a [00:20:30] lot about do it anyway. Like, what are those moments where you're like, oh, okay, I survived this, I survived this. And I mean, we probably, we all have lots of these things, right? Cassie.
Cassie Divine: Oh, so many of these things. Um, there's a peloton instructor, Robin Arzon, who, you know, frequently in her rights will say you've survived 100% of your hardest days. And I think about that, like, yes. And, and I think, you know, there, [00:21:00] there are so many things you've done that are hard in different ways. And they could be extreme things like advocating for a parent or a kid in a hospital. They could be for yourself, they could be surviving illness. They could be getting out of a dumpster. I mean, you know, everybody has these stories. They also could be things where you, you know, found the words to console a kid or a team member who tried their hardest and still [00:21:30] lost. And so I just think thinking about that catalog of these things that we know how to do, I think there's some element of it that you think about that memory. And it also just brings you, I don't know, at least for me, it brings me this wave of like, I feel, you know, either as an emboldened as I was at that moment or as empathetic I was at that moment. And I think kind of having those catalogs of things ahead of time [00:22:00] can be helpful. Now, sometimes you don't know ahead of time, you just move into that, that moment. But I think taking stock of the traits that you have when you have survived or dealt with all kinds of hard things is very powerful because then you realize I am her.
Nancy McClelland: You know I actually am am connecting this to when Valerie Heckman was on the show to talk about the to do list. I feel like this catalog of personalities [00:22:30] of times where you've actually, you know, done the thing, whether it's the, the hard thing or the compassionate thing or, you know, you've moved into a different space. Like you were saying, Cassy, you can give them a name if it helps. You could put these on your to do list question, right? Like you could be like trashy Cassy. And what are her three strongest characteristics? And then, you know, another name. And like the, the three characteristics of, of the one that's consoling, um, [00:23:00] someone in a time of loss or whatever you can, you could literally. Are you saying that should we be literally making a list here? Because that seems like that would be a really good thing because you're saying these are the receipts, right? These are the proof that I have been this person in the past and it sounds like a really great journaling activity.
Cassie Divine: I love that. Yeah, I think for women, as we said, because there's so much conditioning to be a certain way, I think where you can, you know, start with a blank page and name [00:23:30] a lot of the things that you are that you want to be. And some of them might be tough and some of them might be. I mean, it can be all of those things, but I think, you know, sort of rejecting everybody else's definitions for you and deciding the ones that you are. And if you want to put a little gold star on it, I love it, I love it.
Questian Telka: Yes, absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: You know how much we love our gold stars?
Cassie Divine: I love a gold star too.
Nancy McClelland: I we are those the gold stars I sent you question.
Questian Telka: They sure are.
Nancy McClelland: Are those of you who [00:24:00] are listening and not watching question just held up a big sheet of gold stars that I sent her after our episode with Valerie. Oh my God, that warms my heart.
Questian Telka: So they sit right here next to me.
Nancy McClelland: Oh.
Cassie Divine: You know what this reminds me to just. I think that idea of, like, I was this. I give myself a gold star. I think some of these moments that require strength in our careers or businesses, there's [00:24:30] sometimes we're the only ones who are there to witness it. You know, it's not a, a moment that, you know, is something you're necessarily going to talk about with people. But I think the act of celebrating it, whether it's giving yourself a gold star or I have a crazy ritual, I have a number of what I call my imposter syndrome playlists. Some of them are to hype me up in advance. Um, but I have one that is titled Victory Lap and it has the most ridiculous songs on it. [00:25:00] Like DJ Khaled, all I do is win. And if I have had a moment that I felt like that was big, I did it. I will listen to this just to sort of bask in a celebration for myself. And it sounds ridiculous, but I think it reminds us like, yeah, I, that was awesome. Let's do that again. That does not sound ridiculous. Yeah. No, not at all.
Nancy McClelland: Not sound ridiculous. [00:25:30] I think that it's actually a really great potential positive trigger in the future because you're like, wait a minute. I, you could I'm thinking use that not not only in moments where you're celebrating the thing, but let's say you want to get into that mindset again, like we were saying, giving ourselves permission. Play that song that you played when you did your victory lap to get you psyched up to be like, I [00:26:00] can do this again. I've, I've got one that is a song that I literally completely forgot existed until this tax season. Um, it's not, it wasn't even a favorite song of mine back in the day, but do you guys remember I'm still standing by Elton John?
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Cassie Divine: Yes.
Nancy McClelland: I was listening to some mix. I think I was telling, um, I don't want to say the machine's name out loud, because if I do, she'll start playing music. But, um, I was like, hey, machine, make [00:26:30] me a mix based on, I think it was Hall and Oates or something like that. And they ended up playing I'm Still Standing by Elton John and I'm like, oh, how appropriate for taxi. So during, during this like really rough time in tax season. And it was, it was reminding me it was like this proof, these receipts that I'm like, yeah, I've done this before. I'm still standing. This is not my first tax season. I will make it through. Um, and it was so like, I want to put that on my, on my victory lap mix, but also play it when [00:27:00] I know I'm going to have a really tough week ahead of me. And it's so funny because of course that song didn't didn't mean anything to me first time around because I was a kid and I'm still standing. Probably didn't make any sense, but now I'm like, oh, I get it, Elton. We're buddies. Um, I.
Cassie Divine: See. 100%, 100%. You can add. Um, one of my good friends said that the Chumbawamba song like I get knocked down, but I get up again. Like, I can't remember what the title [00:27:30] of that song was, was like the small business anthem for them. Yeah. You know, entrepreneurial pursuits. But I think there's a lot, you know, as you think about, um, watching sports, like particularly MBAWMBA like before those players get on the court to perform their best. There's like fog machine music, tearaway pants. I might have to get to tearaway pants.
Nancy McClelland: I need a tearaway pants. [00:28:00] I gotta.
Questian Telka: Get.
Nancy McClelland: Hyped. Yeah, well, I mean, I, I guess that that leads us into the concept that this is this is a behavior, not a personality. It is one small piece of your personality and your calling on it. You're not you're not living in that space. You're. But it also means that you don't have to have confidence or charisma or whatever. You need your hype song. [00:28:30] You need your tearaway pants or your fog machine or whatever it is for you, you, you, you, you, you are looking at this as a behavior and not a personality. And it comes through your actions, not through the feelings. You don't have to find those feelings first.
Questian Telka: Yeah. You don't have to feel like you're authoritative to act as though you are or to, you know, exemplify that. Um, [00:29:00] and, um, Nancy, you talk a lot about CBT and that's a very key concept. Yeah. And we've referred to it numerous times. And so it's like you can, we can behave in a way and this in confidence works this way too. Right. Um, you can show confidence and not necessarily feel that you fully embody it right at the same time.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. You make the actions, the of that, the, the, the [00:29:30] version of yourself that Cassie's describing that we're finding that that acted with confidence in the past. What were her actions? What did she do? Now you repeat those actions. And when you make those actions, um, happen, you, you do start to feel it a little bit. It's that, um, in, uh, theater, I know they're, they call it, uh, the Stanislavski method, I think is what it was. I don't, I can't remember which one. There are all these Russian names. Um, but one of them [00:30:00] is the one where you, you recall a moment where you felt the feeling and then you act. And the other one is you have a moment where you where you acted and, um, make those same motions that you made that time. And then it will actually make you feel that feeling while you're on stage. So yeah, this isn't, this isn't something that we end up finding for ourselves and then living in that, right? Like we're recalling this [00:30:30] behavior.
Cassie Divine: Absolutely.
Nancy McClelland: I think it's really important to, to pull that, that feeling part out of it. Right.
Cassie Divine: Exactly. I think that idea that you mentioned that Misty talked about is true in so many things for a lot of us, definitely for women, this idea that you're not going to feel confident until you have acted that way or authoritative until you have acted that way. And so I think this, you know, to your point, this idea of do I [00:31:00] feel it or not is sadly irrelevant and you just have to go for it. I have a little post-it note on my computer. I have a number of them. One of them says, just act as if. And you just have to, you know, try it and then it comes to you. But I think this, this temporary element of it is also really powerful. Like, again, I'm not going to have to become that person. I just have to access that and, and get it done. But, and [00:31:30] it's the alter ego is almost like the intervention of the behavior in, in this theory you're talking about.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I'm so happy that you went into detail and shared that because I think for, I know certainly for myself, um, not as much now, but like earlier in my career, the thought or idea that women who were farther along in their career, who I looked up to and respected, that, they would come across as confident but not [00:32:00] feel it was like a foreign concept, right? Yeah. It was like, oh, there's no way that's possible. Like they exude, you know, such authority, such confidence. And my assumption was that that's how they always felt when they were, you know, speaking or delivering information or coming across, you know, confident. And, you know, I, I recognize now that that's not the case, but it's really important for people to hear it, especially in different, you know, in different aspects [00:32:30] and in different, you know, areas and parts of their career.
Nancy McClelland: Because question, I, I know that when you were in those moments and you were looking up at them, you were thinking, oh, wow, I hope someday in my life I feel that confident or, or even doubting yourself and saying, that's amazing that she can do those things because she's confident, but I'm not confident or I'm not tough or I'm not. Whatever the characteristic is, I'm [00:33:00] not those things. So I can never get to where she is. And that's not the case at all. I feel like finding out that you act like Cathy was just saying as if, you know, you're, you're you're not waiting to feel tough. You're behaving tough. And you let that feeling catch up with you or you're not waiting to feel confident, you're behaving confident. And then you're letting that feeling catch up with you. It's a hack. Does. Yeah it is. And that's all.
Questian Telka: That any of us who appear [00:33:30] to be confident or authoritative have leaned into. Right. So that's the that's. But it only it's only.
Nancy McClelland: Once you realize that's what's happening with other people, whether it's male or female, that you realize you have that permission to do it yourself, because otherwise you feel like you're the only one. Like we say in the intro to every episode, you know you're not. You are not the only one. We're all scared.
Questian Telka: That's right.
Cassie Divine: One of my other [00:34:00] little visual cues. I'm a very visual person, as I have a picture of a goldfish that has like a shark fin on it. And so you can see it sort of in the water that it appears as a shark. Later, someone told me, oh, it's more like a swan because they look so graceful, but they're, you know, kicking sort of really fast underwater. And it looks like they're more treading water. Whatever your visual is, it just helps you remember or cue like, I'm going to do that [00:34:30] right now. That's so.
Questian Telka: Cute. It's adorable. Yeah. A little goldfish with a shark fin, too.
Nancy McClelland: I'm picturing it right now. I love that so much. Oh, question.
Cassie Divine: The big ocean.
Nancy McClelland: I need you to help me make that image.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I just need to, like, you know, every once in a while, you just got to put your shark fin. Shark fin on and been on.
Nancy McClelland: That should be our that should be one of our, um, so one of our cognitive behavioral therapy shortcuts that we use when [00:35:00] we're talking about this concept that I've mentioned before on this show is my therapist and I call it putting your yoga pants on because you're thinking, feeling and doing personalities, those different parts of, of your being in cognitive behavioral therapy are they don't. One of the things we talk about is they don't have to be in alignment in order for us to do it. You can not feel like taking yoga class that day. You, you know, you can think, oh God, I'm [00:35:30] I'm, you know what? I don't really need this. I my back's doing okay. So you don't want to feel it or you don't feel it, you don't think it, but you can have these thoughts while you are pulling on your yoga pants. Yeah. And it's that action. And so our shorthand for that is putting your yoga pants on. And so question, I think you and I need a new shorthand for this. We can be like, okay, come on, go get your shark fin. Go put your.
Questian Telka: Shark fin on.
Nancy McClelland: I love that. And you can use this in a bunch of different ways. You [00:36:00] can use this in, in pricing conversations in, um, when you're asked to do something out of scope, or if a client is giving you pushback, like there are a lot of ways that this can come up in the world of accounting. It's, it's like this shortcut into the behavioral entry point.
Cassie Divine: Absolutely. I think that one of the things that you both have shared is this idea of like, not sort of sitting in the feeling. And I think a lot of times [00:36:30] that is what it is so easy to do if you're going to have a tough conversation, whether it's with your partner or boss client, it's so easy to think about how they're going to feel, and that just gets you into a different mode. And then it even shapes how you're going to talk about it. And I think this intervention and the idea of making the shift into why am I doing this? What's the outcome that I'm going for? Yeah, it's so much healthier [00:37:00] to think about that and defend and feel. It just gets you out of that feeling of not how it might feel, but why is this a positive thing or the right thing might not always.
Nancy McClelland: That is so good. I need, I need that soundbite to live in my head. So repeat that. So it's not about the feeling. It's about why.
Cassie Divine: The outcome.
Questian Telka: Like, yeah, yeah.
Cassie Divine: Why am I, why are we doing this? And I think when you so many times [00:37:30] our feelings. I very much like both of you will lead with my feelings. You know, people would always say you wear your heart on your sleeve. If I'm feeling that, I'm worried about how this news is going to take. That's going to affect effect, what I say, how I say it, and if instead I've shifted to why, which could be why. It's important to give you this tough feedback, why it's important to raise my prices so that I can deliver a [00:38:00] level of service that is right for you and right for me. I think it just sets the tone for everything. And you get out of that feeling and into what is what is this outcome that I need? And I think when we think about our tough scenarios, like your mention of advocating for your son, you know, in a way that maybe leading with logic, that wasn't your natural, it was definitely one I would bet was motivated by the outcome that you wanted. And [00:38:30] so.
Questian Telka: Absolutely.
Cassie Divine: Laser focused on that. I think everything gets a little bit easier, not easy, but a little bit easier for sure.
Questian Telka: I think that's a, that's a really good point is, you know, is reminding ourselves to really think about, okay, here's the situation, whatever it is where like you said, where am I trying to get to? I need to get from point A to this particular outcome. And if you're just thinking about how you're going to make somebody feel, then of course that's going [00:39:00] to completely change, change it. But I think I feel like if you start with to reiterate what you're saying, what outcome you're trying to get to, and then you can kind of figure out what that is and then you can kind of manage, okay, I want to get to this outcome. How can I deliver this to help me get to this outcome while also being conscientious of the person I'm delivering it to. Right. Yeah. Depending on what it is, of course. Um, and so you can kind of like tie it in that way instead of leading [00:39:30] with what is it? You know, how am I going to make this person feel when I give them this piece of information? And, and.
Nancy McClelland: Yet again, to tie that back to, to cognitive behavioral therapy again, because I'm obsessed with it, as you know. Um, that requires us to do what what Kathy was saying about interrupting that pattern. You have to go meta. You have to notice it's happening. And, um, that gets us out of the default response into the [00:40:00] obsessed version that we've given ourselves permission to be intentional about going to. But you got to notice it happening, right? Like you've got to, there's got to be a moment where you're like, oh, time out brain, you have a resource here.
Cassie Divine: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe that's a time that you call on the alter ego, one of those alter egos, like what would she do? Or maybe going into a scenario with, okay, I'm going to go [00:40:30] in there and I might need to tap into, you know, whatever your cool alter ego name is.
Questian Telka: God, I love this because I hadn't been thinking about it as intentional from the start, but it reminded me that very recently I took on a project that was, you know, it's a big project and it's hard. And it's like, I have the capability. I know that it's, I know that it's there, but it's still, you know, it's just a big lift in general. And, um, when I [00:41:00] was like, you know, like trying to hype myself up for it, I, I was like, okay, I didn't go to alter ego, but now I'm going to, you know, now I'm going to be intentional in this. But what I did do was I thought back to when I got on stage for the first time in front of 500 people, which was at QuickBooks connect when it was still QuickBooks connect. Um, and I was like, I remember saying to myself, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. If [00:41:30] I can do this and survive and do a good job, I can do absolutely anything. And I went back to that moment when I was trying to. I was like in a, in a, in a panic, right? Like, okay, because of.
Nancy McClelland: This new project.
Questian Telka: Because of the new project. Yeah, exactly. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna, if I, you know, that's definitely the hardest thing I've ever done. And even still, when I compare it to what I'm doing now, that's still the hardest thing. So I'm like, I'm going to be fine. [00:42:00] I can do this. I can muster, you know, the energy, the, you know, I can tamp down the fear and, you know, do it anyway.
Nancy McClelland: Isn't that interesting though, that, that we've got, I mean, our brains are so fascinating in so many different ways. And, and what you're describing is something where you actually in, in accessing this version of yourself that lived through something very, very difficult and was the hardest thing you've ever done. And if you lived through that, you can, you can do anything right. In [00:42:30] doing that, it actually made you more confident. Like it. Yeah. You because, because then you're like, wait, but I know that I did it. And so not only am I accessing this person who, who acted in these ways acted more confident going into that, but it actually starts to wear off on you over time because you're seeing this pattern over and over and over, I can do this. I can live in that discomfort. I can, I can [00:43:00] shift to why it matters. I can like I am capable of doing these things. And, and as you act in those spaces, you actually end up developing whatever that skill is that you needed to emulate.
Cassie Divine: Yeah, I agree. And another thing that I think is true about these scenarios, definitely the ones you're mentioning, right? This big moment on stage, this big project I got, [00:43:30] I had a moment where I was going to get onto a big stage, and I suddenly felt like I was like, I'm going to freak out. I mean, I was just panic was there.
Nancy McClelland: Man. And you've been on the main stage at QuickBooks connect. Wow. It's a big it's.
Questian Telka: A big moment.
Cassie Divine: And then I this idea popped into my head, which was I wanted this, I wished for this. And I suddenly was [00:44:00] overcome with gratitude and a little bit of a like I got wait, I, I'm here, I'm doing.
Questian Telka: It.
Cassie Divine: Scenario like I did this and I wanted this. And I think in a lot of those scenarios, whether it's, you know, you're at the big kids table now and you're talking or you get this big client or you get this big project having that moment that I have something that I worked for or wished for wanted. It just [00:44:30] sends these tingles down your spine that I think also might interrupt that feeling that you're having with a new feeling that is, is true. And so that just complements everything you're saying.
Nancy McClelland: But yeah, well, and it's, it's circular because it, it complements what you're saying when you're saying you're, you're, you're thinking about the why? Because your gratitude comes from the I'm, I wanted this, why did I want this? Right? Like, look at the difference that I can make. Look at [00:45:00] the impact that I can have.
Questian Telka: Totally. I was when you said that I was actually, I was going to ask a question because it's like, I've definitely had those moments where I'm like, you know, it's like grateful because you're like, wow, this is amazing. I wanted this. And then I'm like, why did I want this?
Cassie Divine: I myself.
Nancy McClelland: What was I thinking? Well.
Cassie Divine: Those ones are good. I mean, I think every woman, every person likely, but women can take on [00:45:30] Just so many things that I've also had those. Why did I think this was a good idea? And yeah, like with everything wrong and invariably, like when you have that big thing, you know, it's like your partner has a work trip and your kid is suddenly sick. I mean, life throws a lot of us, a lot at us in those scenarios. Mhm.
Questian Telka: Always.
Cassie Divine: And it's definitely those crazy moments too.
Questian Telka: It's always, um, it always seems to come, like you said, in waves, right? Yeah. Like when in [00:46:00] those situations always seem to happen together. So.
Nancy McClelland: So Cassie, talk to us about some of the. I know that there is a downside to this. There are some risks. There are some guardrails that we need to put into place that you've that you've talked about in your writing. Um, for anybody who does not already follow Cassie on LinkedIn. She shares some of her Substack writings [00:46:30] there that are just fantastic. And I know you've talked about this concept of like situational armor, this, that this is temporary.
Cassie Divine: Yeah, I think exactly. It's you don't have to become this person. I don't think you want to channel your alter ego all the time. I think about it a little bit, especially for those tough situations, like it's armor that I'm going to put on to go into this scenario. And I think as we talk about guardrails, this [00:47:00] isn't permission to be unkind. This is permission to be clear. And I do think as we think about authentic toughness or calibrating the right response to a situation, I try to think about being clear versus being anything else. And perhaps if you feel like I'm ramping this up and channeling this, you know, tough lady way too [00:47:30] much. Okay. That could be a good signal. Um.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, you never want to lose alignment with your values. I mean, that's.
Cassie Divine: Totally.
Nancy McClelland: And, and that goes back to the why, the why.
Cassie Divine: Totally.
Nancy McClelland: Act act based on what is the outcome that I want for this?
Cassie Divine: Yes, yes. And I think this might not be a guardrail for everybody, but for me, I am someone that, you know, is known for talking a lot. And I'm an [00:48:00] external processor, you know, I'm sort of talking and going and going.
Nancy McClelland: I have no idea what you mean.
Cassie Divine: I'm sure you have no idea.
Nancy McClelland: I am just like that. Yes.
Questian Telka: I think we're all verbal processors here.
Cassie Divine: Yeah, yeah.
Cassie Divine: I think so too. I'm I'm excited to hear what what your listeners and viewers have to say. But in, in seriousness, one of my messages on a Post-it to myself is talk less, say more. And I really try, I [00:48:30] think particularly for tough conversations. It is so easy to say a lot of things. Yes. And oftentimes less is more. Like going through and saying this. And I know you might be thinking like shorter is better. And, you know, I have had tough situations where I gave someone feedback and it probably took me 15 minutes to explain my feelings. And I've had a similar conversation with the same profile of jerk. And I [00:49:00] said, I don't like the way you treat me. And he said, I don't know what you mean. And I said, I think you do. And I hung.
Questian Telka: Up and that's it.
Cassie Divine: And you know what? That was so much more effective than a lie on a couch. Yeah, yeah.
Questian Telka: I think, uh, I think there are definitely, I, I think in most situations where you're dealing with somebody who's kind of, for all intents and purposes, bullying you, [00:49:30] right in a way that the, the short like expressing to them how they're making you feel doesn't tend to work like in length, right? Is basically saying what exactly what you said. And it's like, I don't like this and this is why and going and saying, hey, I'm hurt. And those sorts of things. Like it tends to now it's like they just don't doesn't seem to make as much of an impact as if you are concise and succinct and you just, you know, make it very, very [00:50:00] direct.
Cassie Divine: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Cassie, I am memorizing this. I'm just this simple, this simple. There are so many things on this podcast where when we interview someone, they will give us like a little tidbit. Um, my favorite one so far has been on the, the episode, the two part episode on sexual harassment that we did live at women who count. They taught us. When you're looking at a scenario that you think is is heading into [00:50:30] this, you know, and somebody says something inappropriate or something does something inappropriate, you say, what did you mean by that?
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I've.
Nancy McClelland: Used.
Questian Telka: That for years.
Nancy McClelland: Oh, I that was mostly me.
Questian Telka: Mostly because I like, I, I don't, I don't do well with people who are passive aggressive. And I find that passive aggressive behavior that immediately shuts it down. It's like they move on or they actually explain it to you. And so it's like, I, um, yeah, that's my favorite.
Nancy McClelland: One. I am now memorizing the, [00:51:00] I think you do like when, when we're having, when I'm having a conversation with someone where it's because I can get, as you know, I can get very heated. I can get, you know, I have steam coming out the top of my head or whatever. But just saying when, if somebody says to me like that, they don't know what I mean about something like that. I think you do. And and Mike dropped. Done. I'm.
Cassie Divine: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Drop is over.
Cassie Divine: Yeah. Mike, drop. Let me give you let me give you one more because I think this [00:51:30] will resonate with, you know, we we overthink things. I had a jerk sent me an email at work and I probably wrote 17 responses that were like, you know, in my head, you know, not I, I'm, I'm sensitive, like to kind of like write it down in other places. And this is someone I worked with a lot. And I finally decided in a moment of, I [00:52:00] don't know, just extreme frustration that none of these were going to work. Like to your point, if you're doing this and you knowingly are doing this, me telling you how it's making me feel you.
Nancy McClelland: Don't.
Cassie Divine: Care might be by design. You might be trying to make me feel this way. And so I finally just wrote back unsubscribe, like, oh, and it actually was the most productive conversation [00:52:30] we ever had had because he kind of read it as, I'm so done with you, I never want to get another email from you again. And that is how I meant it. But it just, it was such a good lesson for me. It's so funny. Yeah. Oh, I thought I was like, this is the funniest thing I've ever done. And then I was like, oh my God, should I undo? So.
Questian Telka: I'm just gonna email you from now on when I need [00:53:00] some for some responses.
Cassie Divine: Totally. Totally, totally. That's what I do now to mess with my husband. If he texts me something I don't like, I just put in all caps. Stop. Like I don't want to get this anymore. And it doesn't work.
Nancy McClelland: It doesn't work. Well, I mean, this is this is one of the reasons that you started Career hack, right? Was for people like questions saying like, oh, I want to email you when I need to know what to say in these situations. Like tell [00:53:30] us a little bit more about that project and why you started it and what you're doing with it.
Cassie Divine: You're so kind and I'm sorry for my like little interruptions. I get excited and I like make sounds and.
Nancy McClelland: There is there is no apology. Look at us. Are you kidding?
Cassie Divine: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: We're both guilty that you are a regular listener, you know?
Cassie Divine: Yes. Okay.
Cassie Divine: Yes. Those are all true things. Well, so kind of you, you know, I found in my career. I [00:54:00] felt like there were just a lot of scenarios where I was eating up every bit of leadership advice and career advice and every training I could go to. And I felt like there was constantly something missing. Like leadership books, which are wonderful, often are for an audience that might feel like they already have authority. And I was trying to figure out how to get some authority. And so I felt like kind of the generic [00:54:30] leadership was great, but it didn't speak to me. It didn't speak to that scenario. You mentioned where you're too soft, too aggressive, too soft, too aggressive. And then I felt like a lot of things for women can be a little bit more touchy feely about either their like slogans like own the room. And I'm like, yeah.
Questian Telka: I do.
Cassie Divine: That, I do that. What, what, you know, I'm like, I love this. Like, you know, [00:55:00] pound the table and go demand what for your worth. And also when I reflect on my own experience, I've asked for more money and every time I ever did, it was really different based on the person I was asking and the state of the business and everything. And so I just felt like there was something missing. And then, you know, HR training can be really sanitized and it's for everybody. And when I would talk to other women [00:55:30] that I was mentoring, or if I had the opportunity to have a chat with people, they would always give me a lot of positive feedback. Like, wow, that was actually like helpful. And you said something real. And, you know, I just as I've reflected on my career and what I want in the future, I want more women with more power. And that doesn't have to be you're a CEO or, you know, you get the big job, but you use your [00:56:00] voice more because I believe that makes it better for everybody. And in a lot of the professions that are listening, whether you're in finance, accounting technology. Women are not the women are not the majority. And I think it's so important to figure out how we advance. And I think we can do that for ourselves and leave the place better for the next person who comes along. And so Career [00:56:30] Hack is a A effort to, you know, share more about how I think you can increase your impact and influence without losing yourself. And it's either me talking.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, like, that's 100%. Yeah, this is just like your, your love passion project for us. Like it is just that is amazing. We will make sure to put some information on that in the show notes, please. Um, and, and if [00:57:00] people follow you on LinkedIn, that's probably the best place to be able to learn more about career hack and talking about writing and all of the things.
Cassie Divine: Okay, absolutely. I'm talking about it there. And it's me talking as well as guest mentors. So I will have the two of you on, um, as a, uh, that would be such.
Nancy McClelland: A fun that.
Questian Telka: Yeah, it would.
Nancy McClelland: Thank you so much. Well thank you. I just, this is, this has just been such a wonderful, um, [00:57:30] episode. I just, I mean, I always learned so much from our guests, but this like concept that you already have evidence that you can handle hard things and next time in your you're in that moment, don't ask, can I do this? Ask when have I already been the person who could I. I love this concept and I'm so grateful to you for writing about it in the first [00:58:00] place and sharing it on social so that I got to learn about it. And thank you for saying yes to coming on the show. It's just been wonderful to have you here, Cassie.
Cassie Divine: Oh, well, thank you for inviting me. And if I left everybody with one little thing, it would be to just start trying and testing and adjusting. I think it's so easy for us to overplan sometimes. And I would think about, you know, getting putting yourself [00:58:30] out there more, more as a batting average that, you know, you're going to step up to the plate and, and, uh, you know, batting 300 would be great. And yeah, um, you know, I think just getting, getting started, but appreciative that you read it and invited me and it's been a fun, fun time talking to both of you.
Questian Telka: Yes. This has been such a joy having you on. I feel like it's, um, I don't know, it's helped me reflect on a lot of like recent moments that I've had and past moments. [00:59:00] And so it's really resonated with me myself and, um, as we wrap up, uh, we would like to ask our listeners to follow our She Counts LinkedIn podcast page and to join in on the conversation by sharing under the episode trashy Cassie, when have you already been the person who can handle hard things? We want to hear everyone's stories.
Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. And before we sign off, I want to leave you with a quote by Audre Lorde. [00:59:30] When I dare to be powerful, to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important. Whether I am afraid so.
Questian Telka: True. It's very true. Thank you to everyone for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, and I know it did because [01:00:00] this has something that resonates with all of us. That's exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: So that you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmark dot PPP links to that, as well as how to learn more about our sponsors, solutions and any other resource will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please subscribe and leave us a review. Most importantly, because it helps [01:00:30] other women find the podcast. Also, please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: Many thanks again to our amazing guest, Cassy Devine. We are so glad that you could join us today.
Cassie Divine: Well, thank you for having me.
Questian Telka: Thank you Cassie. We'll see everyone again in two weeks.