Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!
Nancy McClelland: Welcome to She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. We're your hosts, Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And Questian Telka.
Nancy McClelland: And every episode, we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to [00:00:30] figure it out alone.
Nancy McClelland: Special thanks to our season three sponsors Bill, Relay and Carbon. We are so grateful to them for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at She Counts dot show.
Questian Telka: And if you really want to support the podcast, the one thing that would make the biggest impact is to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. [00:01:00] Reviews really do help other women find our podcast.
Nancy McClelland: Remember, you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit. And please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join in the conversation.
Questian Telka: Nancy and I recently returned from one of our favorite conferences, and all of you know, if you've listened in before how much we love conferences. So we were at scaling new heights. And today we're sharing some of the lessons about leadership [00:01:30] that we discussed on stage as speakers.
Nancy McClelland: Now we led two really different presentations and then question and I were talking with each other afterwards about it and our takeaways and how, you know, the presentations went and we realized how much our presentations had in common that on the surface, we hadn't noticed initially.
Questian Telka: And as you all know, we love launching every episode with a story. Nancy has one about the origin of her panel [00:02:00] on vulnerability as a strength.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So my panel was all about vulnerability in empathetic leadership, how we can become better leaders by becoming more honest and open about our struggles and questions is all about change management with clients, which is all about a different kind of leadership where you're looking outwards at other people. So mine, it started, it was this idea that I had years ago at a conference. [00:02:30] I was talking with Anna Dynia, who I met through Bookkeeping Buds. So she's been a conference buddy of mine for many, many, many years. And we were talking about how much less alone we would feel if we knew that what we see on social media isn't the whole story. And, and I don't mean to insinuate that people are necessarily like hiding the hard things so that we think they're more successful than they are.
Questian Telka: While people. They hide the hard [00:03:00] things because it's hard to be vulnerable, like you said. Right. And it's scary.
Nancy McClelland: Well, I mean, we tend to celebrate the good stuff, right? Like if you and I even even if it's not on social media, like I'll text you and I'll be like, yay! This amazing thing happened. I'm not usually unless I like, really need you. I'm not like, oh my God, this horrible thing happened or I had a poopy day, right? Like we, we tend to share successes. We tend to celebrate the good stuff and we deal with the hard things in solitude. I actually, [00:03:30] there was a WhatsApp in, um, theater of public speaking in one of our groups in there, and a woman hadn't been there for a while and she showed up suddenly and she was like, look, I've really been struggling for a long time. And now I'm coming out the other side, and I'm sorry that I disappeared for a while, but I'm okay now. And here's what happened. And she tells us the story kind of, you know, after the fact. That's really common. She was like, it was just too hard to reach out while [00:04:00] I was in the messy middle. Right. So Anna and I were talking about this with Alyssa Jones. Um, how encouraging would it be to the rest of us if we got to hear about all the hard stuff that the leaders in our industry dealt with? And not only did that eventually lead to the creation of this panel that I just got to do at scaling new heights, but in some sense, question like it really led to the creation of our podcast because it's all about like real talk and saying things out loud. [00:04:30] You know, we always say everyone's thinking, but no one's saying, right.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's really important, especially when you are earlier in your career and you are looking up to someone who is kind of in a place where you're like, hey, that's they got there. That's where I'm going, or that's where I want to be going to see that they have struggles too. And so Especially if you're in a position of of leadership. Being able to share your vulnerability helps other people [00:05:00] recognize that they the struggle that they are having is not different than the struggles that other people in those positions have.
Nancy McClelland: Yes. That's actually where Nietzsche came into the story because I was, um, we got a chance to talk about this because I had been at a session of hers at bridging the gap at the first one. And, um, she, you know, was telling us about all sorts of the changes that she had made in her firm. And then I was like, hey, what do you still struggle with though? Like, this sounds [00:05:30] all rosy and wonderful. Like we were having these problems and now we made these changes and you can too. And I was like, great. But I feel like, of course I can make these changes. Of course she can. She's superwoman, she's amazing. And she was like, girl, no. And, and we were like, hey, if we all showed up like that all the time where we saw both the struggles and the successes that it would just all it would be really validating, right? So that yeah, that was the idea behind it.
Questian Telka: Well, someone actually said to me [00:06:00] the other day, um, a female colleague and friend of ours said to me, you know, you just seem like you just have everything perfectly all together. And I like, I mean, did you burst out in my mouth? I would have spit it out. Yeah, of course I did. Because I'm like, I feel like I'm falling apart most of the time. And I was like, it's interesting that that's your perception because, you know, I feel like the perception would be the opposite. And then I thought to myself, well, maybe I'm not being open enough [00:06:30] about the, the struggles that take place. But to your point about someone sharing after the fact that that tends to be how I manage it is like once I've gotten through it, once I've processed it because I feel, I feel like this is probably often with a lot of people, if you. I feel like I'm putting the weight of my troubles or struggles or whatever it is on someone else by being open and sharing it in the moment. And once I've moved through it and figured it out and gotten past it, then I tend to feel like, okay, now I can share [00:07:00] it and that will help someone else. But it's really hard for me also to share kind of in that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I think that that's a very human, that's a very natural, right? Like it's not just you, that's a very natural way of being. And so yeah, this panel was, we had three like superheroes. It was called vulnerability as a strength building a more resilient firm in an uncertain world. And, you know, it was all about how it was. It was Randy Crabtree [00:07:30] and Tony Proctor and Brittany Brown. So like major leaders, real superheroes in the accounting world. Um, and yeah, it was, it was, they were amazing. I'll, I'll, I'll be happy. I'm excited to share more about it for sure. Now you had a session that was called change management, internal change and climate change, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah. So that was basically the topic. It was guiding, um, clients and teams through transformation or something like that. Honestly, I don't remember exactly what.
Nancy McClelland: It was called [00:08:00] now. Like what's the basic idea?
Questian Telka: Yeah, that's the basic idea. Yeah. And um, it was.
Nancy McClelland: Where did the idea come from for that one?
Questian Telka: So what I realized when I was having a conversation with Ashley Rowden, who also happens to be my closest friend, um, she.
Nancy McClelland: Was your co-presenter on.
Questian Telka: She was my co-presenter on this session. Yeah. And she and I were having a conversation about, you know, I'm often managing clients through change because I'm [00:08:30] niched in the nonprofit sector and there are boards that are constantly turning over. It's, you know, nonprofits are not owned. So the editor, the executive director and the, you know, director level staff are often changing over. And so the people who are the decision makers are changing a lot. And so one of the things that I do on a regular basis is I'm helping guide them through those changes and as being, you know, a, um, being [00:09:00] their partner through them. And, and my goal is always to be the person that they rely on. And, and her, she's the COO of Highrock. And so she is constantly managing changes internally for the firm, whether it's technology or staffing changes or, you know, whatever. Everyone knows what a CEO does, right?
Nancy McClelland: So but well, not everyone. Chief Operations Officer Okay. So she's very, very operational workflows [00:09:30] and technology and yeah, yeah.
Questian Telka: Trying to build efficiency. And so she's managing those teams through all of those changes. And so we thought, you know, wouldn't it be amazing to have a session that kind of pulled in those two things? Because if you are running a firm, small or large. You're managing both of those. Um, and, and in a way, my, my firm is smaller now, but in terms of people, but in a way, you know, I'm doing, you have to do the same thing. Anybody who's running a [00:10:00] firm does. And so it's like, if we can do both sides of this in one session, how amazing would that be?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, which I totally love. And I, I especially loved again, you know, when we were, I was like, hey, how did yours go? And you were like, hey, how did yours go? And we were talking about it. Um, I love the idea that leadership, whether that's leadership of a firm or like a leadership with your clients and instilling confidence, um, it requires self-awareness, [00:10:30] but it also requires the ability to understand what others are experiencing. And I felt like the overlap between your and Ashley's session and my panel, it really, I don't know, I just thought that was kind of like, oh, wow. Yeah. Self-awareness and the ability to understand what others are experiencing. If you can take those two things and remember that those are like your grounding, uh, starting points, kind of then you can manage through change, whether it's internal, [00:11:00] whether it's with clients. And of course, set that example of empathetic leadership all at the same time.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And one thing speaking of leadership that I want to mention too is that, um, you know, one of our, one of the things that is important to me and you and part of the show and something that we talk about is, you know, putting more people in leadership spaces. And so I was very excited for her. And so I have to shout this out that [00:11:30] she used to do before she was at high Rock, a lot of work in M&A, and she got asked to join an M&A main stage panel and was the only woman on the stage talking about M&A. And this was also the first time that she had ever spoken at a conference. So talk about like being scared and doing it anyway. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: You know what? Mergers and acquisitions is definitely something where you always think it's like the, the, the dudes, [00:12:00] right? You think of that as being like a, a high powered male executive. So that really is a huge accomplishment on her part. And I actually had not realized this was her first time speaking at a conference. She really held her own. She did an amazing job.
Questian Telka: She's she's done some webinars and things like that. But this was like the first time at an actual conference.
Nancy McClelland: And go, Ashley.
Questian Telka: I know. And she brought the color to the stage, I have to say. So it was really, it was really amazing, uh, to see. And [00:12:30] so I just had to shout that out because, you know, one of the things that we're always pushing for is like, yeah, but put the put, put more women on stage. Yeah, keep it up scaling.
Nancy McClelland: They do a really good job with that. I have been very impressed at the changes that have been made since. Heather Satterly came on board. Heather's done a great job.
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: She's amazing.
Questian Telka: So we are, you know, talking about vulnerability, talking about change. And, um, [00:13:00] so let's talk, let's start with vulnerability because as we know, accountants are famously comfortable with admitting they don't know something.
Nancy McClelland: Very funny, right? We're practically known for it. Yeah. Not so much. Um, well, the way that we started this. So this is the second time I've gotten to do this panel vulnerability as a strength. The first time was, um, a couple years ago at bridging the gap. And lucky for me, [00:13:30] Heather Satterly was actually in the audience there. So she, she had already seen what it could be. And so when we initially did it, it was, um, Niall Carter Gray, Hector Garcia and Dawn Brolin. Those were the original people who were in it. And as I said, this time I did Randy Crabtree, uh, and Tony Proctor and Brittany Brown. And in both cases, I started by sharing what I consider a deeply invasive survey with these folks, because [00:14:00] the idea was to find out all the dirt, right? Like find out all of this stuff. And nobody wants to say out loud and, and then learn a little bit about how they cope with some of those struggles and spectacular failures, right? And, and then tease out the themes that are in their responses, things that like all three of them who are, you know, widely viewed as highly successful, what were themes that came across in all [00:14:30] of them? And it turned out that all of the themes are things that are helpful in both cognitive and dialectical behavioral therapy, which I know we talk about a lot on the podcast.
Nancy McClelland: So I'm going to give you the list because I, I want to bullet point this because I think that these are each one of these could be its own episode. So the first one is reconciling perception versus reality. Meaning the way that people see you versus what you are underneath. Like you were saying [00:15:00] earlier, question number two is building resilience, which it turns out is one of the best ways that you can do that is get involved with communities and lean on other people and be there for them. There's finding balance between maintaining control and letting go, which I think is a really, really, really difficult thing for all of us. Finding meaning in the past and managing anxiety and stress. These are all methods of coping with emotional challenges [00:15:30] that we've talked about on the podcast before. And like I said, community plays a really important Role in making sure all of these are more likely to happen, and that really mitigates isolation. And so, yeah, we really leaned into all of that and discussed how leadership can increase pressure and isolation and self-doubt, and how that gap between how these successful leaders appear and what they're privately experiencing, like how wide that can be and how it can, [00:16:00] you know, it can be lonely at the top.
Questian Telka: Oh, yeah. One of the reasons that so for a long time when I had employees, I no longer do, which is the best decision I've ever made. But, um, you know, I was like, what do I do? And I was trying to figure out, I was like, I am not happy. What do I do? Yeah. Um, and I felt like lonely and I was so the first thing was like, maybe I find a partner, maybe I, you know, so explored all these ideas because I just didn't like running a firm alone. And [00:16:30] then I realized that I really like running a firm alone if the alone is just me.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah, but you still. It's not like you don't have community, right? Like community doesn't mean having a partner in your firm or having employees.
Questian Telka: Um, right. But yeah, to that point that it's lonely, like as a leader, like if you are running a firm and you are the leader of it, like there's a certain level of, uh, inability to like, you know, you, you [00:17:00] want to try as much as you can to connect to the people that are working with you, but at the same or working for you. But at the same time, you know, they need to feel safe and confident and yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And they don't want to know every single one of your struggles because it.
Questian Telka: Can.
Nancy McClelland: Feel like.
Questian Telka: Right.
Nancy McClelland: And they don't know what they're doing.
Questian Telka: Yeah, exactly. Or what's going to happen with my job, you know.
Nancy McClelland: Right. So yeah.
Questian Telka: Um, so what happens? Did you learn through this? You know, what happens [00:17:30] when leaders only share mistakes after they've been turned into a neat success story, which ties into what.
Nancy McClelland: I was saying earlier. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I again, I feel really I feel really privileged to have been able to do this same panel, but with two different groups of panelists because, you know, everybody's story is different. Everybody's story is different. [00:18:00] But when did you.
Questian Telka: Find some commonality between those panels and the panelists?
Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh, so much. Like, it's absolutely amazing. And, and one of them is like, everybody has made a costly business decision. Everybody has made a major client error. Everybody has had a health crisis, whether that's physical health or mental health. Like it is amazing across all six people, everybody has had this happen. And just knowing that these people who [00:18:30] we hold up on a pedestal have made all the same mistakes and dealt with all the same challenges that every human being, especially people who are running their own firms. Um, it's just, gosh, so much less isolating. Like you were just saying, you know, lonely at the top. That leadership loneliness thing that surely cost is always talking about. Um, it, it is very reassuring. And so, yeah, you know, you see those commonalities and when leaders only [00:19:00] share mistakes after they've been turned into that neat success story, we don't get the opportunity to hear the real scale of another person's failure. We don't get to hear about how you learn from it before you're through it, how you develop hope for the future. Um, why failure doesn't disqualify someone from leadership.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And it's like, it's so I think it's important you kind of hit on this, like how [00:19:30] you get through it, right? Like those. How you got through it is very different in hindsight than it is when you're actually in.
Nancy McClelland: It in the middle. Yes, totally. I couldn't possibly agree more. I, I actually think that, um, Ne-Yo said it best. Um, in the first round of this when she said, we don't let it define us. And, and Hector said, we don't sit in it. And both of those, I don't know. For me, it goes back to that [00:20:00] episode that we did called Do It Anyway. Yeah. Right. Like despite the fear of failure, despite the challenges that you're going through, I think it was a Hemingway quote that says, if you're going through hell, keep going.
Questian Telka: Going.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. So that was, that was definitely one part of the, the, the experience that I really, I really loved. And then another one was how honest they all were about what they [00:20:30] don't do well, like basically owning what you're not good at and not trying to pretend like you're good at things that you're not good at. You know, you were just talking about how you don't want to make your employees feel like you don't have it under control, and you don't want to make them fear for their job. Like you want to share with them. You don't want to share like all the things with them. One thing that I really would encourage you to share with them, based on what Randy and Tony and Brittany said, was, [00:21:00] they already know your team members, whether it's staff that you're supervising at a larger firm, or if you're the owner of a firm, the people that you employ or even the contractors that you're working with. Right? We think, oh, we've got to be infallible. We need to be like a leader. And being a leader means having it together. That it turns out it is extremely likely that they already have a pretty [00:21:30] good sense of what we're not good at.
Questian Telka: Oh, yeah. Probably the best. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Right. Yeah. Possibly a better sense than we do. And so the idea here is if you own what you're not good at, if you can be honest about. So like some of the answers that these panelists gave, Randy's really awful about conflict avoidance. Like so much so that it really gets in the way sometimes. Um, panelists talked about struggling with ADHD, which I know is something that you've talked about a lot. [00:22:00] Uh, struggling with hiring and firing and the, the desire to be loved and how hard it is because you're like, oh, wow, people are not going to love me if I lay down the law. And so keeping people accountable, like that's, that's really, really, really hard to do. And so they talked about how they're not good at these things and that this was one thing that you can be really open about. It's, it's being vulnerable on the job with colleagues and also in your firm [00:22:30] or wherever it is that you're working. If you're in corporate. Um.
Questian Telka: That so how can a oh, sorry.
Nancy McClelland: No. Go ahead.
Questian Telka: I was just going to say, how can a leader admit a weakness without making the team feel unsafe? Right? Like you said, they already know it, but like how the team already knows it. But like, how can they openly, you know, and where is that line? Which is kind of what we were talking about too. You know, there's, there's a line where you don't want [00:23:00] your, your team or the people that work for you to fear for their job, but you want to be open with them, right? And for them to still feel safe.
Nancy McClelland: Well, I can't pretend that I have it all figured out, but what I learned from our panelists was definitely that, um, pretending to be good at everything is going to backfire. Like that's not going to make sense. Your team already knows that you're not good at some things. And so having self awareness like we were talking about earlier. Trying [00:23:30] to really, um, recognize what things you're not good at and be honest with your team. And here's the big answer to your specific question. Ask them to help. Say you're really good at this. I'm not. Do you have ideas for me? Can we get you more involved in the vision for the future of the company? How can we, uh, have you take what you know and what you do and what you're good at, [00:24:00] and in your zone of genius. And help me make up for the areas where I'm not strong. And conversely, what you're saying there is. And how can I help you do the same? Right. And so I think that that's a really nice way of saying, help me out. We're on a team together. It's not just mentorship in that direction, right? Like it goes in both directions.
Questian Telka: Yeah. You, um, During your session, you did a word cloud, right?
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. [00:24:30] Oh my gosh, it was so great. We actually started and ended with a word cloud.
Questian Telka: I love a word cloud.
Nancy McClelland: Me too. Me too. And so it was. It was wonderful. Um, the opening word cloud. Actually, I was joking about it. That was one of the things that the evaluation said was so great about this session was that we definitely, like, we talked about some really heavy things, but we peppered a lot of humor throughout, which made it kind of like easier to talk about the hard stuff. Yeah. And so when we started, the first [00:25:00] word cloud was, you know, how does it make you feel when you think you're the only one who doesn't have it together? And it was all like different versions of poopy, right? Like not awesome.
Questian Telka: That's the word of the day. Nancy. Poopy.
Nancy McClelland: Poopy. Totally. And, um, and then at the end, I will tell you, I took a picture of the word cloud because it was so beautiful and I started crying. There was a lot of Kleenex in the room because there was also a lot. We laughed. We cried. It [00:25:30] was beautiful. Um, and so the word cloud at the end was, how does it make you feel when you realize you are not the only one who struggles? And the audience used words like seen, validated, not alone. I mean, like, it was just amazing. Resilient was another one. Um, and, uh, community, you know, was, is basically this, it was the most essential part of many of those adapting coping strategies that, that we talk about [00:26:00] on the podcast. So transparency, openness. Um, well, we, you know, obviously vulnerability, connection and communications, it, we can build resilience together. We can be like that word cloud at the end where we all feel so validated and, you know, really like the opposite of isolated is in community. Yeah, but humans need to feel safe in order to do this. And when we recognize that we're part of a community. [00:26:30]
Questian Telka: Well, we're geared towards trust. We are geared towards building and creating community and social interaction. And so not being in isolation, you know, and being vulnerable and creating that community, you know, that's it builds trust. It builds trust, builds trust. And it's very natural part of who we are.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And, and so that creates safe spaces where we recognize that we're not alone. I mean, I swear [00:27:00] question every week, every week, I hear about someone who is sure that they are the only one muddling through, running their own firm. Every week.
Questian Telka: It's like, no. And it is all 100% of us. Yeah it is. That's the survey. I'm pretty sure that I'm.
Nancy McClelland: Pretty sure it's 100%.
Questian Telka: That way. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And so they'll point to others who, like, have it all figured out. And it's just not true. No one does. And so.
Questian Telka: No.
Nancy McClelland: I feel like what we learned from [00:27:30] these amazing panelists was that, you know, if they don't have it together, it's okay that I don't have it together. And I think that if we can dispel this perception that there are people who do and people who don't, it presents a more balanced message of the reality of our world. And I, I swear it will have an effect on the profession as a whole. Like it will actually make it better.
Questian Telka: Pick the most together firm [00:28:00] owner that you think you know. Right. Choose somebody and like, picture.
Nancy McClelland: Them in your mind right now.
Questian Telka: Right. And if you were like, ask them questions. And to really dig in, I guarantee that they're having the same struggles or have had the same struggles. And if you really peel the layers of the onion back, you will see that this idea, this perception that we have in our mind of them is, is skewed, right? It's, you know, of them as a person, [00:28:30] of them with their, with their firm, because there is no you know, I think so many of us look at people in, in roles that have like built these bigger or incredible firms or whatever it is and think, you know, like you said, like they have it perfectly together. And what you find out is like, if you've, if you've ever worked in one or been in one or owned one, what you recognize is that like, it may look that way, but that's just not how it is. And it's [00:29:00] just not how it is. No, there's no perfect person. There's no perfect firm. There's no ideal. There just isn't.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And I, and I truly believe that that resilience grows through honesty and support and community. So when we can have these conversations out loud. Like it. It changes it for everyone. It really helps us learn. Um, if leaders can, what's the best way to say it? If leaders can model psychological safety, [00:29:30] which is one of the concepts of empathetic leadership by asking questions and admitting mistakes and allowing other people to learn from their mistakes, and also.
Questian Telka: Like behaving as a as a human.
Nancy McClelland: Well, yeah, but you know, that dangerous word professional in quotes.
Questian Telka: Oh, I.
Nancy McClelland: Feel like it's not professional. And so I'm going to argue, I have said this in almost every single presentation that I've given in the past year. [00:30:00] As AI takes on more technical work, empathy and connection, they become more valuable than they ever have before in the history of our universe. They absolutely do. I mean, it's what our. It's what our clients want from us. It's what our team members want from us. It's what we want for ourselves and all of that. It, as you said, like we're geared for it as humans. And so pull away some of those layers of the onion that you [00:30:30] were talking about and allow yourself to share some of your own struggles and ask people about those theirs, their struggles.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I agree with you.
Nancy McClelland: I mean, I just they're resilient. Firms aren't built by people who never struggle. That's, that's the takeaway there, right? Like they're built by people who don't hide their struggles. And so to the point that Ne-Yo had made, they are not defined by them. They're not sitting in it.
Questian Telka: Yeah. [00:31:00] So, you know, it's, um, it's really vulnerability is about recognizing and naming, you know, what's happening inside of us. Right? And I think change leadership requires us to recognize what is likely happening inside of someone else, whether it be our client or our team member.
Nancy McClelland: I love that so much [00:31:30] that that connection between self-awareness and awareness of what somebody else may be struggling with, because.
Questian Telka: Those are kind of the the two things that are most, you know, or maybe not, I don't know, probably most important in a leader is that you have. Yeah, you have to have a self-awareness to. You can't just have an abundance of empathy for somebody else. You have to be aware of how your behavior and feelings [00:32:00] and actions impact other people at the same time. Right?
Nancy McClelland: Totally, totally. So all right, so your guys whole session was on on change management, whether it's with clients or inside the firm. Um, and, and it's a different kind of leadership than the kind we were talking about, but it's equally it's a different type of empathetic leadership. So when a client organization, your, I know your whole thing is, is more the client side of things as [00:32:30] opposed to the internal side of things. When a client organization is changing. And here we're going to try to practice this concept of self-awareness being part of what's helping us recognize what is happening within other people. How do we know before they actually tell us?
Questian Telka: One of the first things that I noticed is, and this could be with employees internally too, is like people start to build a distance. Um, and that can look like, uh, longer [00:33:00] response times. You know, just if you're an internal employee, like not being as responsive, being off work more, you know, whatever. I mean, that could mean a variety of things. But if it's a client, people, new people suddenly showing up in meetings.
Nancy McClelland: You mean like a new staff member or something?
Questian Telka: Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Like a new.
Questian Telka: Yeah, a new staff member or someone, you know. I mean, it could be it could be a team member, a consultant, it could be anything.
Nancy McClelland: Um, one of my favorites is, um, when [00:33:30] all of a sudden they ask you for a report. Can I get a report that shows XYZPDQ and you're like y? Yeah.
Questian Telka: And a lot of times they're like, I want to report that shows this. And if you ask what, what the report is for, nine times out of ten, that's not really the report they need. It's a different one to start with.
Nancy McClelland: But yeah.
Questian Telka: I know that we're all familiar with that. Um, yeah. Unexpected reporting requests, you know, just unusual kind of things. [00:34:00] Changes in who's making decisions. Um, you know, I think when change is happening and someone's trying to manage it, they're, you know, there's a struggle. And so it's like there's, there can be less, just often less communication in general. Um, you know, I think that's the first thing that I.
Nancy McClelland: Mean, like if a client goes quiet.
Questian Telka: Yes. And that's what happened to me the first time I lost a client, um, [00:34:30] which wasn't due to any of the work that we were providing. But, um, you know, one of the things that happened. Oh gosh, was it a year and a half ago? I don't even know the time frame, but a lot of people are probably familiar with the fact that non-profits lost a massive amount of funding.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And so it's super hard.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And so, you know, that's why, you know, this change management for me went into overdrive at that time. But one of [00:35:00] the things that I noticed in hindsight was that this particular, uh, client who was losing funding and I knew it and we were trying to like, figure, you know, trying to figure out, um, how to make up the difference and coming up with, you know, yours. I always tell them you need to have multiple different revenue streams, but you know, I'm not the decision maker. And so they aren't always listening to it. But, um, so one of the things that I noticed was that the response time started [00:35:30] to get longer. And when I was asking for information so I could do the work, or when I was trying to like meet with them, that I recognize that, that they would like start to cancel meetings and that sort of thing. And what happened was eventually she like called me up and told me, she just said, you know, I've just got to like, we just cannot find the funding that we need. Um, and so we've just got to tighten our belts and, um, yeah, and it just, but those were the signs. Those were some [00:36:00] of the first things that I happened to see. Um, so, and, and there can be.
Nancy McClelland: A variety.
Questian Telka: Of.
Nancy McClelland: Reasons. Like I wouldn't know. I was just going to say that sometimes the signs that you're seeing then are after the change was already underway, right? Like they're not really proactive about it, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah. And I wasn't in that scenario and they weren't either. And so one of the things, one of the important things that needs to be done is pay attention to the signs. [00:36:30]
Nancy McClelland: Like, right.
Questian Telka: You know, make sure that you, a lot of people will do. It's like they're, they're doing financials for someone. Like they'll send them in a loom video. I meet with my clients on a regular basis because meeting with them and asking them questions and being their, their partner and their trusted advisor is, you know, how I can continue to keep working with them. But it's also a method for growing, um, scope with [00:37:00] clients. So like, you know, a lot of people do that and that's fine. Like I, you know, if that's what they're, if that's what works for them. But in my firm, it's very relationship focused. And so those, you know, when you when you have the opportunity, um, if you see the signs, then have more regular meetings, have conversations with them, ask open ended questions, you know.
Nancy McClelland: Okay, give me some examples. I want to know, give me some examples of questions that can help a client [00:37:30] open up about what's really happening.
Questian Telka: I mean, I just have so one of the things that I think is important is like, I just have a general rapport with most of my clients and everybody has a different probably view on this, but it's like I ask them about their lives. So it's like I start off the call kind of, you know, just having a normal conversation like I would with any friend and then or colleague. And then, you know, you just ask them open ended questions. What's new, what's changed? You know, what are you what [00:38:00] are you planning for in the next few months? And so it's like once you just start asking those questions, things start to come up and then you can continue asking. And that is how I have found. It's like my questions to them are the method by which I get the most information. It's not them telling me something like, hey, this is coming up and I want you to know about it. Or it could be something you see in the financials that prompts a question to it's like, this is different. Like, I haven't seen this before. [00:38:30] Who is this vendor? Like, what are you doing? You know, what is what are you doing? And so.
Nancy McClelland: Um, you know, that totally reminds me at the, at the second reframe conference, that's Hector and Carlos Garcia's conference. I don't know if you've ever been to that one.
Questian Telka: I haven't, but, um, it's on my list.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, it's it's very cool. So, um, at that they were talking about the importance of leading with curiosity. And I think our, our inclination as accountants, I know it's my inclination, even though [00:39:00] I'm a naturally curious person, I also immediately Want to propose a solution? I got to meet Erin Collins, the taxpayer advocate. Um, the other day at, uh, an ATP tax podium. And she and I were talking about that because I was just, we were just talking about life together. And every time that I would mention something, she would be like, what about this? Have you done this? Have you done this? And I was like, no wonder you're so good at being a taxpayer advocate because like, you're always looking for problems and, you know, proposing a solution. [00:39:30] But in this situation, leaving it open ended, like you're talking about and leading with curiosity and kind of letting them come out with this as opposed to immediately providing a solution, you're actually going to get it actually is also something that Liz Farr talks about on her disruptors podcast. Uh, I know she, she's got this whole theory from all of the disruptor interviews she's done. Um, she's actually having a panel of us coming up, speaking at bridging the gap on the things that she's [00:40:00] learned from interviewing disruptors. Yeah, it's going to be so cool. It's going to be, um, Terrell Turner and Nicole Davis and Randy and I are the four disruptors. And then she's, it's gonna be so good, right? Yeah. And then Liz is gonna ask us questions that are going to be, you know, around these four pillars that she's come up with this idea that she has about what makes us, you know, what makes disruptors, disruptors, basically, what are these? What are these quote unquote, [00:40:30] new ideas in leadership, in accounting? And one of the things that she and I talked about on, um, the first time that I was on her podcast was being the person that your client goes to first when they have a problem with something and that that goes along with what you're saying, right?
Questian Telka: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the main, you know, key, the two key takeaways was become the trusted advisor for your client. So you're the first person that they [00:41:00] talk to whenever they make any decision. And that change is an opportunity. Change is not, you know, most accountants are scared of change, but change is an opportunity for us, with our with our clients. Um, it's an opportunity.
Nancy McClelland: To be scared of change and have it be an opportunity at the same time. That's probably worth mentioning.
Questian Telka: Well, it's, you know, the changes are our opportunity to, if we aren't, if you are running a firm [00:41:30] and you is bookkeeping and accounting and you're not doing advisory. Those changes. Those are your advisory. Those are your in to advisory. Right. So it's like becoming that that advisor, walking them through, helping them through those changes, whatever they are. And we all know that it is a lot more expensive to find a new client than it is to grow.
Nancy McClelland: A current client.
Questian Telka: Relationship. So those changes are again, an opportunity to grow Scope. And so [00:42:00] we shouldn't be like you said we can. It's okay to be afraid of it, but do it anyway, right?
Nancy McClelland: Do it anyway. Do it anyway. My favorite.
Questian Telka: Change. And do it anyway. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: You know, Twyla Verhulst, who was, um, one of our early guests. I got to see her a few weeks ago when she came to Chicago with carbon to do an AI training for accountants, and she came up with a really cool way to do some of what you're talking about. She to use AI specifically for doing it. And she said to take, I don't know if this is something [00:42:30] you already do, but she suggested taking the transcript of your most recent, um, one or 2 or 3 client meetings before you have your next meeting with a client, take those transcripts, run them through whatever AI tool you're using and say, what about these is something that I should consider bringing up or thinking about before the next meeting. And so it could be something as simple as you know, they were running [00:43:00] late to the last meeting because their dog was sick. So this tells you they have a dog. This tells you that they care about that dog because, you know, they were at the vet and they were da da da da da. Um, yeah. So it could, which goes.
Questian Telka: Back to the thing that I was saying, which is like, you know, I wish that people could do that piece naturally, but if it's not something that comes to you naturally, then it's a good. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Or even if it does come to you naturally, but you have enough clients that you don't remember, like all of the details of every single one. Like, I don't remember whose dog [00:43:30] got sick last time. You know, that can be really hard. So that was a really good suggestion. I liked that a lot. And then there were other things like, you know, looking for opportunities to increase scope, like you were saying.
Questian Telka: Yeah, yeah, like putting it in there and asking it. Yeah. I mean, I think that's an incredible idea. Yeah. Um, and there are so many other, you know, you could have a whole, we'd have a whole episode on just ideas for that. Like don't get.
Nancy McClelland: That's a really good write that one down. All right. Cool. So [00:44:00] how do you how do you respond when leadership wants the change? But the people doing the work don't want the change because that I mean.
Questian Telka: I mean, we have to find out what what's their motivator? There's a motivation somewhere. Like they're, they're scared of losing something, right? But then if they can understand this is in more internal and this is, you know, um, from my experience, but also mostly Ashley's words is if you can really. And [00:44:30] it seems obvious, but I don't know that it is to everyone is that if you, you just need to frame it in a way where they can understand that the reason that you're doing it is often because you're taking their feedback and you're trying to solve a problem for them. And the problem could be something like a piece of technology, like we're implementing this piece of technology, we're standardizing, we're adding SOPs. Um, and the reason that we're doing that is because we want you to be able to take a vacation and [00:45:00] not take your laptop. So if you have your SOPs all outlined.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. But then question, that means they're potentially losing control or authority or job security or identity. So it can be really threatening.
Questian Telka: I know, and I think that it's like helping people managing that, helping them see what the benefits are in multiple different ways and scenarios. And, but I think you're right is that someone goes, oh, well, if [00:45:30] you create those SOPs, then you can replace me. But the, the fact of the matter is like, we're all replaceable, right?
Nancy McClelland: Like whether we.
Questian Telka: Have SOPs or.
Nancy McClelland: Not. Yeah.
Questian Telka: But, um, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: And so sometimes it's hard though, because the person who's implementing or approving the change is not the person who's carrying the burden. So, you know, sometimes they're just like, well, that, that doesn't match the concerns that I'm having. And so in that kind of case, you got to explore that pushback.
Questian Telka: What's an example? [00:46:00]
Nancy McClelland: Well, you know, so you let's say you think that this particular technology is going to help me be able to do something. And I'm like, that's not my problem. You're solving for a different problem. My biggest pain point is this thing over here. And that happens. It happens, I would argue more at bigger companies because the people who are making those decisions are sometimes several layers removed from.
Questian Telka: Oh, yeah. I mean, I actually, I, yeah, well, I think that a big piece of [00:46:30] it is and you're never going to make everyone happy. That's impossible. But that's when you're going through this, this change management process, like you get buy in early. So you're, you're talking to them, you're helping, you're asking them to help you make a decision about what the technology is. And, you know, so it's not. And maybe if and I mean, if it's a large and much larger firm, maybe you're pulling employees from a pool, right? So you're not going to be able to get the feedback from every single person, but you're going to be able to get feedback [00:47:00] from from some of them. And so getting that buy in early is extremely important because, you know, they, you cannot, if you don't have buy in from your team, it's going to fail. Yeah. It's going to fail. And so getting.
Nancy McClelland: To go back to your, uh, the point that you were making about being able to recognize the change in other people without them actually saying it overtly. If you can think about [00:47:30] the why behind it. Um that's.
Questian Telka: Right.
Nancy McClelland: You know, like what, what are, what are people afraid of losing? What, like, what is the threat to them?
Questian Telka: What I mean, I think there's a number, but it's like, what if, if it's a piece of technology, maybe it is. They're afraid of like losing being the expert in that area. So, you know, you offer to help them become the expert in some other area or whatever tool it is that you are developing. You know, people are scared of feeling like they don't have control. [00:48:00] So, um, I think that there's a lot of different reasons people feel that way and, you know, getting people through the transition period, that's the hard part. Like everyone, it's like the decision to make the change is no more and no, as much less difficult than getting, you know, it's like three parts, right? So it's the end of like the old process and letting that go. And then you get into the [00:48:30] messy middle and then you go into the new beginning with whatever the change was like being complete and taking place. And you know, when you are in the messy middle, that's where the most of these transition, like that's the biggest transition. And that's where most of these changes that we're going through, where we lose people and where we fail. And so helping people emotionally get through that.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Because just because you're something is going to launch on a certain [00:49:00] date doesn't mean you're like, you can't just emotionally transition on command. Like, okay, now we're all, we're all happy about this now. Yeah, that definitely makes sense that it takes time to get from, from like, just because you're completing the project doesn't necessarily mean the change succeeded, which I'm sure you've probably seen plenty of times.
Questian Telka: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course, a project or a client shift or change. Yeah. And you know, those changes are I [00:49:30] had, um, I'll be honest, like I've had a, a project that I was working on recently and the team that I was working with was my client's team. And like, there was one person that every time I knew, there was always the one person every time I turn the corner and was trying to help solve a problem or make a change. And there are big changes, right? Yeah, it was like I was met with resistance every single time. And so I just had to keep working [00:50:00] to show the benefit over and over and over and like, as we started, come, come through to the other side, we could see what was, what the change was going to actually be and look like. That's when it felt like, okay, we finally got the buy in.
Nancy McClelland: Right? Right. Totally. So that totally makes sense. So you mentioned earlier talking about how having these open ended questions with clients and [00:50:30] trying to not just have the self-awareness, but the awareness about what's going on internally with other people. Um, you mentioned that sometimes that gives you an opportunity to expand your scope. So I have a, a very specific question about that. How do you know when something has become a different engagement rather than just a temporary adjustment? Like how do you actually, when the client changes, when their [00:51:00] needs change, the engagement has to change too. How do you know when that happens?
Questian Telka: You know, like how I mean, you have to kind of when you see that something is changing, name it out loud, right to them, to yourself, like, okay, this is what it is. I think we need to look at our scope. Like, do we know what our original scope is? I mean, I don't know about you, but none of mine are consistent. Like all [00:51:30] of my clients have a different scope of work. So, you know, I may not remember.
Nancy McClelland: The original like engagement that they signed and.
Questian Telka: What it says.
Nancy McClelland: On it. Okay.
Questian Telka: And hopefully it's very detailed. Um.
Nancy McClelland: Not mine. And they should be.
Questian Telka: And then look at what you know, if there if what is the what is the new outcome that they're looking for? Um, and define that and, and so looking at the current scope, defining what the new change or outcome [00:52:00] is, you know, there are things like, I mean, you're having these conversations with clients that they may say to you, like, I, one of the ones that came up to me that would happen to me a lot. And this, you know, it's like, is when my clients were losing funding, you know, I transitioned several of them. I lost several of them transitioned into actually like higher paying clients because we were going through [00:52:30] and having to figure out and we were having one off projects to figure out like, how can I cut costs? Right? And so it's like, I wouldn't necessarily expand COVID scope, but if I am permanently like monthly. But if I am helping them determine. For example, and this was actually one of the most difficult things like, do I need a workforce reduction? Um, so helping, if that's not part of my scope, I have to, I need to charge for it. It doesn't matter [00:53:00] what the situation is like. That's taking my time. Um, so.
Nancy McClelland: Well, how do you but how do you do that? You increase the scope, change the scope and the pricing without sounding opportunistic. I mean, it sounds kind of voltri, right? Like even though I know you're trying to help them, I always struggle with that.
Questian Telka: Well, I think it's again, like naming what's changed and letting. Right. Realizing, um, that the new outcomes are different from, [00:53:30] from what was originally scoped and the engagement needs to actually support where the organization is today. And yeah, you know.
Nancy McClelland: That may.
Questian Telka: Aren't always good places. Like we hope that scope is changing because our clients are earning more revenue and they're growing, but that's probably very often not the case.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah, so sometimes the scope is changing for supporting a negative. Yeah. On where the organization is today.
Questian Telka: Yeah that's right. Wow. So.
Nancy McClelland: Um, [00:54:00] yeah, I mean, I guess if the conversation centered on the client's needs and you're being transparent about it, like.
Questian Telka: Yeah, and avoiding surprises and, you know, that's, that's what it is. It's like this conversation, the conversations usually come about and you're talking about what, what it is that they need, and they don't expect you to do it for free. You know, when you explain to them, like, this is the scope, this is the new outcome. And so, you know, we need to change the engagement because it is different than it was like [00:54:30] that's expected.
Nancy McClelland: So yeah.
Questian Telka: Um, you know, but when you're doing it, do it with sensitivity, especially if it's a negative situation.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Otherwise you're just taking advantage of chaos. And that's. Yeah. And it's like, that's really.
Questian Telka: Not what it is. It's like we want to help our clients. But at the end of the day, I have a family and I need to feed them and they need to eat. And if I am spending time doing that work for you, it's work that I can't be spending or that I can't be doing for somebody else, so.
Nancy McClelland: Right. Yeah. No, that's just that's just responding [00:55:00] and adapting to the client's actual needs. It's being the trusted advisor because you're being proactive and responsive to what their actual needs are and not what your original scope was.
Questian Telka: Yeah. And if you continue to work, I've experienced this too. If you continue to do work for clients that is outdated or I'm sorry, the scope is outdated on, um, and you're doing extra work and you're not billing for it, it really, it builds, it can build resentment and, you know, create frustration and it weakens the relationship. [00:55:30] So.
Nancy McClelland: Um, I've definitely been there. Yeah.
Questian Telka: Oh, yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Questian Telka: That same, you know, this, the stuff that we're talking about doesn't come like we don't. It comes from like all the, the number.
Nancy McClelland: Of lived experience.
Questian Telka: That. Yeah, yeah, that we've had. So, um, you know, our, our job is it's not just to implement like technical changes, but it's to help its implement a technical change or a workforce change or a, [00:56:00] you know, whatever it is, it's to help people move through what the changes are and to be a trusted advisor for them. At least that's how I look at my role. And I love that is in a different place with, you know, the type of services that they're offering.
Nancy McClelland: But man, I wish I had had the opportunity to be in you're in Ashley's session. That just sounds absolutely amazing. It sounds like I.
Questian Telka: Know, I'm.
Nancy McClelland: Sorry I missed.
Questian Telka: Yours too. I had gone home by the time it happened.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Oh well, ours was on the last. It was the last session on the last day. But it's okay, I can I'm I'm gonna [00:56:30] sum it up for you. I'm going to sum it up for you. Question. No one has everything figured out. Number two vulnerability does not weaken leadership if it's paired with responsibility and self-awareness. And number three, and I know you know this so well, resilience is built through community. See, you didn't have to come. I just gave it all to you right there.
Questian Telka: You got the bullet points? Yeah.
Nancy McClelland: Um, give me yours. I want your bullet points.
Questian Telka: Mine. Um, is that, um, [00:57:00] uh, changes in opportunity. So I think it's like, um, relationships and scopes evolve when organizations evolve, evolve. And that is an opportunity and that's how we should look at it.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, I love it.
Questian Telka: So Nancy, what is one question that you would like the listeners to ask themselves about vulnerability?
Nancy McClelland: You know, I'm [00:57:30] I'm glad you said that because this is something that we talked about in the panel itself. Um, it was my, it was my ask of the audience, the in person audience at our session. And the question to ask is, who out there in the world actually knows what you are carrying right now? Who out there knows it? And write this down, like right down the list of people who know [00:58:00] the heaviness of the weight that you're carrying, because that's going to tell you because if you can't write anybody down, right, you're not letting others in. And then you write down all of the people who do know it. That is going to answer your question about are you letting others in? But I want everybody to do the converse of that. To whose load can you help lighten? Not just have the self-awareness about [00:58:30] what you're carrying and who you're letting in, but looking externally and thinking about who out there might be struggling that you could be supporting. And that is something I dearly, dearly hope that all of our listeners will take a serious few moments to sit with that and think about it. Are you letting others in and are you reaching out to others?
Questian Telka: Yeah, [00:59:00] that's something that I know I will certainly be thinking about. I try, um, sometimes it's, um, sometimes it's hard to like, take a pause when you're speeding through life and to ask yourself both of those questions, but it's giving me something, some food for thought.
Nancy McClelland: Maybe it's something that we can each do when we're writing our to do list before going to bed, like Valerie Heckman taught us. Yeah, it's going to be something that we add to it. [00:59:30] Who? Whose load can I help lighten And who knows what I'm going through? Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, we'd love to ask listeners to follow our She Counts podcast, LinkedIn page, and to join in on this conversation by sharing under the episode Two Sides of Leadership. Which side of leadership needs more attention from you right now? Being more honest about what you are carrying or becoming more curious about what [01:00:00] someone else is carrying.
Questian Telka: And before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote by one of our favorites, Nicole Davis, that was highlighted in Nancy's session. Vulnerability is a strength that the greatest leaders wear with pride.
Nancy McClelland: Yeah, that was part of her keynote at Scaling New Heights a few years ago, so I, I definitely wanted to include it on a slide in our session.
Questian Telka: Yeah. She has, um, her Nicole isms are the best. Her quotes are.
Nancy McClelland: Amazing. [01:00:30] Nicole isms.
Questian Telka: Thanks for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk podcast for women in Accounting.
Nancy McClelland: If something in today's episode hit home for you, ah, well, that is exactly why we're doing this.
Questian Telka: So you feel seen, heard, and never alone.
Nancy McClelland: Remember that you can get CPE credit for listening at earmarked links to that, as well as how to learn more about [01:01:00] our sponsors, solutions and any of the other resources we talked about today will be in the show notes.
Questian Telka: And please subscribe and leave us a review because it helps other people find the podcast. Also, please share with another woman in accounting who needs to hear it too.
Nancy McClelland: And we'll see everyone in two weeks. Take care.